Agreed, he averaged almost 3 tackles and made up the rest with a high amount of sacks. Even toward the end of his career with carolina he led the league. He was also a very popular player among the fans. When the steelers released him after he helped lead them to the super bowl, their front office got alot of hate mail. >>
OK. Well, I guess I must be off on Greene (along with the rest of the HOF voters). He keeps making the top 25, but not the top 15. I don't see an injustice, but obviously if he was a fan favorite it was 100% due to his play on the field and not his wildman personality...lol...Of course the play at LB dropped VERY dramatically when he left too...Even today, the Steelers can never seem to find LBs who can rush the passer. (please note the sarcasm here).
Also, when a player gets a SACK, he is also credited with a tackle on the play. So subtract his sack totals from his tackle totals and then you'll have his tackles vs. the run. Which then ends up around 2 per game..Which is horrendous for a LB.
To each his own, address your hate mail to the voters, maybe they will bypass a more deserving Richard Dent again for another 3-4 edge blitzer(Fred Dean, Andre Tippett, Rickey Jackson, Derrick Thomas..All recent electees and ALL elected OVER Kevin Greene)
Jason >>
I have no clue how Tippett or Dean leap frogged Greene when he was the better OLB and pass rusher. IMO Greene is hurt by the fact that he isn't really identified with any one francise. With most of the HOF'ers I can picture them with "their" team or teams but w/ Greene I think of him as a Free Agent w/out an organization.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>I didn't see much of Greene after he left the Steelers since Panthers and 49'ers games aren't usually carried in my area. I'm a little confused, so they stopped rushing Greene (leaving to play coverage) so he could have a better chance of catching runners from the backside in pursuit? While OLB'ers can chase things down from behind I would place more emphasis on their ability to clog the run on their side of the offense. Greene was always pretty good at the point of attack and could stretch plays, collapse running lanes, or shed blockers.
His sack totals per year were still very impressive after he left the Steelers: 96-14.5, 97-10.5, 98-15.0, 99-12.0. >>
No argument that the guy was a great pass rusher. Problem is, so where a bunch of other similar players. And when you have 4-5 guys who were ALL great at rushing the passer, you have to look at other things in trying to decide who is more deserving than who.
If you watch Greene in his later years, when he isn;t rushing the passer (like a DE), they had him playing more on the strong side, over the tight end. And covering the tight end. He always had descent wheels and a non-stop motor for a guy of his size. But the fact is, he was never great at the point of attack or shedding blockers. That was always his weakness even on the Steelers. You get a Guard pulling to block him and its over, hes done. He was the classic tweener..Too small to play every down DE, too big to play affective OLB. He was at his best as a 3-4 OLB rushing the passer. He's been mentioned for I think 4 years straight now as one of the top 25 HOF candidates. That alone says he was a GREAT player. But problem is, only 5 of those 25 can get in every year.
While Dean I can agree with you on, Greene was NOT in any way shape or form a better player than Andre Tippett or Rickey Jackson...And wasn't better than Richard Dent. Haley/Doleman/Greene, honestly are all very close overall and you could make a good case for any of the 3.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I didn't see much of Greene after he left the Steelers since Panthers and 49'ers games aren't usually carried in my area. I'm a little confused, so they stopped rushing Greene (leaving to play coverage) so he could have a better chance of catching runners from the backside in pursuit? While OLB'ers can chase things down from behind I would place more emphasis on their ability to clog the run on their side of the offense. Greene was always pretty good at the point of attack and could stretch plays, collapse running lanes, or shed blockers.
His sack totals per year were still very impressive after he left the Steelers: 96-14.5, 97-10.5, 98-15.0, 99-12.0. >>
No argument that the guy was a great pass rusher. Problem is, so where a bunch of other similar players. And when you have 4-5 guys who were ALL great at rushing the passer, you have to look at other things in trying to decide who is more deserving than who.
If you watch Greene in his later years, when he isn;t rushing the passer (like a DE), they had him playing more on the strong side, over the tight end. And covering the tight end. He always had descent wheels and a non-stop motor for a guy of his size. But the fact is, he was never great at the point of attack or shedding blockers. That was always his weakness even on the Steelers. You get a Guard pulling to block him and its over, hes done. He was the classic tweener..Too small to play every down DE, too big to play affective OLB. He was at his best as a 3-4 OLB rushing the passer. He's been mentioned for I think 4 years straight now as one of the top 25 HOF candidates. That alone says he was a GREAT player. But problem is, only 5 of those 25 can get in every year.
While Dean I can agree with you on, Greene was NOT in any way shape or form a better player than Andre Tippett or Rickey Jackson...And wasn't better than Richard Dent. Haley/Doleman/Greene, honestly are all very close overall and you could make a good case for any of the 3. >>
I'll have to find some film on Greene b/c I remember him as a very effective run stopper b/c of his size and strength. I don't see how he wouldn't be as good Jackson or LT against the run b/c he was a larger OLB.
How was Tippet better OLB? The sack totals aren't even close.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>I'll have to find some film on Greene b/c I remember him as a very effective run stopper b/c of his size and strength. I don't see how he wouldn't be as good Jackson or LT against the run b/c he was a larger OLB.
How was Tippet better OLB? The sack totals aren't even close. >>
Greene was big and strong, but wasn't big enough or strong enough to hold the point. Most LB's aren't. And it's why he played LB and not exclusively DE. Definitely take some time to look him up and watch. He wasn't a BUM against the run (like say Dwight Freeney for example), but he was mostly average with a sprinkle of being a run game liability at times.
Tippett was better because he was not a designated pass rusher. Greene was a better PASS RUSHER, Tippett was a complete LB, as was Jackson (during his Saint years, he ended up becoming a DPR at the end as well)..Lawrence Taylor was DOMINANT in every phase..Pass rusher, run defense, pass defense. I think maybe that's the one piece we are disconnecting on. I am grading Greene on his complete game, not just that he was a great pass rusher. Pass rusher is just one phase of the game, and as I've said he was or was at least very close to being HOF caliber at rushing the passer. But he was weak in other areas of the game. And because of that, he's been bypassed by other LBs who were more complete players. Don't take my word for it though. The voting says it all.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
No full time special teams player deserves the Hall! >>
The fact P-Ks were only involved in a handful of snaps per game is a very weak argument. Punters, having more influence than perhaps any other player on field position, influence the game more than most give them credit for. My father was a punter in college so perhaps I'm unfairly impartial to them. But if non-players (ie Sabol, etc) are given finalist consideration without ever playing a single down, then special teams players and P-Ks should also. No one is suggesting they be given equal consideration. But the very best at the position over the past 30 years (ie Ray Guy) should definitely get in.
<< <i> But if non-players (ie Sabol, etc) are given finalist consideration without ever playing a single down, then special teams players and P-Ks should also. >>
Ray Guy has been a HOF finalist on 7 occasions. That means 7 times he had has case made before the HOF committee and 7 times he was not selected. In fact he's never made the cut to the final 10 or 8 (Pre-2008). I think that is a VERY fair shot. He's been looked at quite extensively and other players/owners/coaches have been selected over him.
There simply hasn't been enough support either publically or in the HOF committee for voting a Punter in. It's a split decision, and you need 80% for HOF election. You can say the voting process is flawed, but honestly is 80% of the public think Ray Guy should go in over these other players? It's been the correct call.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
There should be HOF representation for EVERY position on the field. The best all-time punters and kickers deserve a spot. I don't buy the argument that because Ray Guy has had 7 chances then ergo he's been given a fair shot. The voters have their head's up their ass, always have and most probably always will. Not all the voters but easily 70% plus. I remember one of Jason's older posts where he described just how out of touch some of these muppet voters were. If you have to rely on a presentation from a player lobbyist then you haven't done your homework.
There are quite a few questionable selections in the Hall already.
I think the biggest issue with punters, kickers and safeties not really getting a fair shot is that there is a backlog of guys at more skilled positions that need to get in first. If that issue is solved then guys can be admitted on standard of play vs their peers, which is the ONLY way to qualify candidates.
Argue all you want about whether Ray Guy was the best punter of his era -- that's a viable argument. But I'll never agree with anyone who says punters don't deserve to get in because they didn't play as many downs or weren't a "skilled" position. Use that argument and then why bother with tight ends (too fat and slow to be WR), WR, D or O line. Hell, why not just allow QB's and RB's and really focus on pure skill.
First solution is to revamp the voter lineup -- that solves 90% of the problem. Next up, get rid of the backlog of deserving candidates. This all could get done over 3-5 years. Lastly, we need to stop fawning over the almost Hall-worthy modern candidates. If they don't stand head and shoulders above their peers then leave them out. For every Kevin Greene there is a vintage era player that was better standing on the outside of the Hall looking in.
That's my rant for the day.
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
<< <i>I'll have to find some film on Greene b/c I remember him as a very effective run stopper b/c of his size and strength. I don't see how he wouldn't be as good Jackson or LT against the run b/c he was a larger OLB.
How was Tippet better OLB? The sack totals aren't even close. >>
Greene was big and strong, but wasn't big enough or strong enough to hold the point. Most LB's aren't. And it's why he played LB and not exclusively DE. Definitely take some time to look him up and watch. He wasn't a BUM against the run (like say Dwight Freeney for example), but he was mostly average with a sprinkle of being a run game liability at times.
Tippett was better because he was not a designated pass rusher. Greene was a better PASS RUSHER, Tippett was a complete LB, as was Jackson (during his Saint years, he ended up becoming a DPR at the end as well)..Lawrence Taylor was DOMINANT in every phase..Pass rusher, run defense, pass defense. I think maybe that's the one piece we are disconnecting on. I am grading Greene on his complete game, not just that he was a great pass rusher. Pass rusher is just one phase of the game, and as I've said he was or was at least very close to being HOF caliber at rushing the passer. But he was weak in other areas of the game. And because of that, he's been bypassed by other LBs who were more complete players. Don't take my word for it though. The voting says it all. >>
I can't argue that pass coverage was Greene's weaker area but when comparing him to Taylor, Tippett, or Jackson I don't understand how he could have issues against the run when he was larger than any of them and probably stronger (he was in great shape for being around 250). I went back watched Super Bowl 30 and some additional clips of Greene and I saw an OLB that was very effective against the run. He did a good job collapsing the running lanes to force the RB back inside and he only missed 1 tackle. In Super Bowl 30 he was especially strong at the point of tackle shedding blocks from the FB, TE, and pulling G. I know its only a small sampling but the video I watched suggested that Greene was difficult to run against and not a liability in this area.
I believe Greene has not been recognized by the voters b/c he lacks an affiliation to any one team. If you look at Tippett and Jackson both played the majority of their career w/ 1 team and they were voted in the year that team was a Super Bowl contender. Greene does not have that advantage.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
49ers Get Pass-Rusher Greene / 1996 NFL sack leader will play on left side August 27, 1997|By Ira Miller, Chronicle Staff Writer
When he was a free agent a year ago, Kevin Greene got no attention from the 49ers because, they believed, he could only play on one side of the defensive line (the left side), and they wanted their ends to be able to work both sides.
Never mind that he did it very well.
The 49ers instead wound up signing Chris Doleman, and they soon found out he could best operate on just one side of the line, too (the right side). Today, they will sign Greene, giving their defense two of the NFL's top five active career leaders in sacks. Carolina released Greene on Sunday following a summerlong contract holdout, and he could give the 49ers just what they need: A shot of raw emotion.
"He's energized and motivated," said Carmen Policy, the 49ers' president. "On the phone, he sounded like a 7.5 quake. The persona of Kevin Greene is more attractive to us at this point than it might otherwise have been, if we hadn't quite experienced the blandness during our play in the preseason."
A personnel executive with one NFC team described Greene as an "I guy," saying, "He wants to be a hero. All he wants to do is be an stand-up pass-rusher." But, the executive added, that was not necessarily a bad thing.
"He does it good. He's a tough guy, exactly what you want. He'll add some toughness, and he'll get all over other players. He'll be in their faces."
Greene, who led the NFL in sacks for the second time last year with 14 1/2 for Carolina, has led his team in sacks nine years in a row with the Rams, Steelers and Panthers. He flew last night from his Alabama home to the Bay Area and will be on the practice field today.
Few players in the league play with more intensity. And, although Greene
turned 35 in July, he has not slowed down, averaging 12 sacks a year since his 30th birthday. His career total, 122 1/2, ranks fourth among active players, just ahead of Doleman.
Greene is not nearly as good against the run, however, and, in fact, the word around the league is that he is considered a liability against the run. The Panthers' coaches considered Greene an average run defender.
Although the 49ers grew interested late, Greene's signing is consistent with their pattern. He's another old player -- there are now 15 on the roster who have been in the NFL at least a decade -- and he signed a contract that, while it won't hurt the 49ers against the salary cap this season, could have some effect in later years.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>49ers Get Pass-Rusher Greene / 1996 NFL sack leader will play on left side August 27, 1997|By Ira Miller, Chronicle Staff Writer
When he was a free agent a year ago, Kevin Greene got no attention from the 49ers because, they believed, he could only play on one side of the defensive line (the left side), and they wanted their ends to be able to work both sides.
Never mind that he did it very well.
The 49ers instead wound up signing Chris Doleman, and they soon found out he could best operate on just one side of the line, too (the right side). Today, they will sign Greene, giving their defense two of the NFL's top five active career leaders in sacks. Carolina released Greene on Sunday following a summerlong contract holdout, and he could give the 49ers just what they need: A shot of raw emotion.
"He's energized and motivated," said Carmen Policy, the 49ers' president. "On the phone, he sounded like a 7.5 quake. The persona of Kevin Greene is more attractive to us at this point than it might otherwise have been, if we hadn't quite experienced the blandness during our play in the preseason."
A personnel executive with one NFC team described Greene as an "I guy," saying, "He wants to be a hero. All he wants to do is be an stand-up pass-rusher." But, the executive added, that was not necessarily a bad thing.
"He does it good. He's a tough guy, exactly what you want. He'll add some toughness, and he'll get all over other players. He'll be in their faces."
Greene, who led the NFL in sacks for the second time last year with 14 1/2 for Carolina, has led his team in sacks nine years in a row with the Rams, Steelers and Panthers. He flew last night from his Alabama home to the Bay Area and will be on the practice field today.
Few players in the league play with more intensity. And, although Greene
turned 35 in July, he has not slowed down, averaging 12 sacks a year since his 30th birthday. His career total, 122 1/2, ranks fourth among active players, just ahead of Doleman.
Greene is not nearly as good against the run, however, and, in fact, the word around the league is that he is considered a liability against the run. The Panthers' coaches considered Greene an average run defender.
Although the 49ers grew interested late, Greene's signing is consistent with their pattern. He's another old player -- there are now 15 on the roster who have been in the NFL at least a decade -- and he signed a contract that, while it won't hurt the 49ers against the salary cap this season, could have some effect in later years. >>
I don't think the perceived "liability" against the run comes from his inability to get off blocks but rather going to far up field (as if he was playing the pass) based on the comments about being a hero and getting to the QB. IMO the Panthers coaches were down playing his ability against the run b/c he was a former player they didn't want back at the time. Former teams don't often speak highly of older players they choose to release.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I wonder if Terrell Davis will ever get in - sort of tough I guess, as he had only the 5 dominant years before his injury. Although he had an MVP award and won two Super Bowls, the argument about his great offensive line will also come into play.
<< <i> I don't think the perceived "liability" against the run comes from his inability to get off blocks but rather going to far up field (as if he was playing the pass) based on the comments about being a hero and getting to the QB. IMO the Panthers coaches were down playing his ability against the run b/c he was a former player they didn't want back at the time. Former teams don't often speak highly of older players they choose to release. >>
I think we will just have to agree to disagree on Kevin Greene's run stopping prowess. How about this though. Rank these 26 Semifinalists based on your opinion, with #1 being the most deserving candidate, and #26 being the least deserving. I'd love to see where Greene stacks up on your list. If he isn't in your top 5, then how has he been overlooked or screwed over in some way. Here are my personal rankings of these 26, and Greene is no where near the top 5. Only 5 can get in. He's 17th on my list, which is based 100% on my opinion and not what I think will happen. I do not predict my top 5 will go into the HOF this year.
Deion Sanders, CB/KR/PR Marshall Faulk, RB Willie Roaf, T Cris Carter, WR Shannon Sharpe, TE Richard Dent, DE Dermontti Dawson, C Jerome Bettis, RB Curtis Martin, RB Andre Reed, WR Tim Brown, WR/KR Cortez Kennedy, DT Lester Hayes, CB Aeneas Williams, CB/S Charles Haley, DE/LB Terrell Davis, RB Roger Craig, RB Kevin Greene, LB/DE Chris Doleman, DE/LB Ray Guy, P Ed Sabol, Contributor Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner Edward DeBartolo, Jr., Owner Don Coryell, Coach George Young, Contributor Art Modell, Owner
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> I don't think the perceived "liability" against the run comes from his inability to get off blocks but rather going to far up field (as if he was playing the pass) based on the comments about being a hero and getting to the QB. IMO the Panthers coaches were down playing his ability against the run b/c he was a former player they didn't want back at the time. Former teams don't often speak highly of older players they choose to release. >>
I think we will just have to agree to disagree on Kevin Greene's run stopping prowess. How about this though. Rank these 26 Semifinalists based on your opinion, with #1 being the most deserving candidate, and #26 being the least deserving. I'd love to see where Greene stacks up on your list. If he isn't in your top 5, then how has he been overlooked or screwed over in some way. Here are my personal rankings of these 26, and Greene is no where near the top 5. Only 5 can get in. He's 17th on my list, which is based 100% on my opinion and not what I think will happen. I do not predict my top 5 will go into the HOF this year.
Deion Sanders, CB/KR/PR Marshall Faulk, RB Willie Roaf, T Cris Carter, WR Shannon Sharpe, TE Richard Dent, DE Dermontti Dawson, C Jerome Bettis, RB Curtis Martin, RB Andre Reed, WR Tim Brown, WR/KR Cortez Kennedy, DT Lester Hayes, CB Aeneas Williams, CB/S Charles Haley, DE/LB Terrell Davis, RB Roger Craig, RB Kevin Greene, LB/DE Chris Doleman, DE/LB Ray Guy, P Ed Sabol, Contributor Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner Edward DeBartolo, Jr., Owner Don Coryell, Coach George Young, Contributor Art Modell, Owner >>
My "not a prediction" five:
Sabol Sanders Dawson Greene Faulk
I really have no objections to any of the names on the list and would like to eventually see all the players and Coryell get in. I have nothing against the other contributors but feel Sabol is easily the most deseving out of them and even the players due to the impact that NFL Films has had on the game.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
That's a nutty top 5, but hey, it's your opinion on the 5 most deserving, so can't really argue with that. Although I have no idea what criteria you used to arrive at them, but very interesting to say the least.
Just looking at the defensive players alone (which make for an easier comparison), you have Greene being a more deserving HOF worthy player than:
Richard Dent, Cortez Kennedy, Lester Hayes, Aeneas Williams, Charles Haley, and Chris Doleman
Honestly I can't even imagine what you were watching in the late 80's and 1990's. Are you sure you had regular season NFL football on your TV??? Cause i just can't imagine another guy on the planet not named Kevin Greene who would also put him in front of each of those 6 players.
Sabol might just get the nod this year. I'm still holding out hope that they will change their bylaws again and use that 2nd Senior candidate slot for owners/contributers/coaches and leave the players to compete against just other players. You do understand that these 26 names are COMPETING against one another for those 5 slots right? The majority of the HOF committee meeting entails comparing these guys to each other and selecting the MOST deserving when typically all of your final 15 are at least somewhat deserving.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I still say the HOF should have separate votes for builders and players. How can you possibly weigh the worthiness of a builder versus a player? I don't think it's fair to either side.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
That's a nutty top 5, but hey, it's your opinion on the 5 most deserving, so can't really argue with that. Although I have no idea what criteria you used to arrive at them, but very interesting to say the least.
Just looking at the defensive players alone (which make for an easier comparison), you have Greene being a more deserving HOF worthy player than:
Richard Dent, Cortez Kennedy, Lester Hayes, Aeneas Williams, Charles Haley, and Chris Doleman
Honestly I can't even imagine what you were watching in the late 80's and 1990's. Are you sure you had regular season NFL football on your TV??? Cause i just can't imagine another guy on the planet not named Kevin Greene who would also put him in front of each of those 6 players.
Sabol might just get the nod this year. I'm still holding out hope that they will change their bylaws again and use that 2nd Senior candidate slot for owners/contributers/coaches and leave the players to compete against just other players. You do understand that these 26 names are COMPETING against one another for those 5 slots right? The majority of the HOF committee meeting entails comparing these guys to each other and selecting the MOST deserving when typically all of your final 15 are at least somewhat deserving.
Jason >>
I considered the players that were the best at their positions when they played.
Sanders was the best cover CB of his time Faulk had a window where he was the best back in the game Dawson was easily the top guy at his position during the 90's Greene was the second best pass rushing OLB in NFL history
When I watched Greene I saw a dominant OLB who was fierce against the run and the pass. While Greene wasn't great against the pass (also not his responsibility) he made up for it by being one of the games top pass rushers. The fact that he ranks at #3 on the official and #4 on the unoffical all time sack list is very impressive.
Yes I do understand and I feel like many of the players are comparable in regards to their level of greatness.
I like your senior selection idea.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Selecting by position is a smart way to decipher. The committee DEFINITELY does it when they have players at multiple positions. But making someone the best available at their position is step 1. For example:
Deion Sanders, CB Marshall Faulk, RB Willie Roaf, T Cris Carter, WR Shannon Sharpe, TE Richard Dent, DE Dermontti Dawson, C Cortez Kennedy, DT Kevin Greene, OLB Ray Guy, P
Here are 10 guys who are all the best at their positions. So you are saying that OLB Greene, who made 5 Pro Bowls as an OLB and was selected as a 1st team All-Pro exactly twice in his 15 year career is more deserving than Willie Roaf who was made 11 Pro Bowls and was selected as a 1st team All-Pro three times. Also Shannon Sharpe who made 8 Pro Bowls and was selected as the top TE in the game 4 years.
I guess this is where you somewhat lose me with your thinking. I can buy Greene as the best available pass rusher or OLB (although I actually prefer Charles Haley), but I don;t understand how or why if Greene was THAT great, why he wasn't recognized more during his playing career. I understand someone saying Chris Hanburger has been overlooked when it comes to HOF induction. Because he was a guy who was given plenty of credit during his playing days but got lost in the shuffle after retiring..But a guy like Greene, how can a guy with his personality get "lost in the shuffle" during his playing career?
As flawed as the voting process can be, the fact that a borderline HOFer like Greene is CORRECTLY waiting in line while more deserving players go in, at least tells me they are attempting to take HONEST looks at each and every players career. They don't always get it right (IMO), but in Greene's case, for me, he's in line exactly where he should be..Which is somewhere between 15-20. Give it a few years, maybe 5-10, and he should eventually work his way to the top and be inducted. I do think he is deserving, just not before the other more deserving guys.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Selecting by position is a smart way to decipher. The committee DEFINITELY does it when they have players at multiple positions. But making someone the best available at their position is step 1. For example:
Deion Sanders, CB Marshall Faulk, RB Willie Roaf, T Cris Carter, WR Shannon Sharpe, TE Richard Dent, DE Dermontti Dawson, C Cortez Kennedy, DT Kevin Greene, OLB Ray Guy, P
Here are 10 guys who are all the best at their positions. So you are saying that OLB Greene, who made 5 Pro Bowls as an OLB and was selected as a 1st team All-Pro exactly twice in his 15 year career is more deserving than Willie Roaf who was made 11 Pro Bowls and was selected as a 1st team All-Pro three times. Also Shannon Sharpe who made 8 Pro Bowls and was selected as the top TE in the game 4 years.
I guess this is where you somewhat lose me with your thinking. I can buy Greene as the best available pass rusher or OLB (although I actually prefer Charles Haley), but I don;t understand how or why if Greene was THAT great, why he wasn't recognized more during his playing career. I understand someone saying Chris Hanburger has been overlooked when it comes to HOF induction. Because he was a guy who was given plenty of credit during his playing days but got lost in the shuffle after retiring..But a guy like Greene, how can a guy with his personality get "lost in the shuffle" during his playing career?
As flawed as the voting process can be, the fact that a borderline HOFer like Greene is CORRECTLY waiting in line while more deserving players go in, at least tells me they are attempting to take HONEST looks at each and every players career. They don't always get it right (IMO), but in Greene's case, for me, he's in line exactly where he should be..Which is somewhere between 15-20. Give it a few years, maybe 5-10, and he should eventually work his way to the top and be inducted. I do think he is deserving, just not before the other more deserving guys.
Jason >>
I have no clue how Greene was over looked for most of his career when it came to those awards b/c he was highly productive year in and year out (the same case for Jackson last year). I regard Greene so highly b/c he was such a devastating pass rusher and good run defender. When I rank the top 3-4 OLB's I have him at #2 so that is why I feel he's an excellent HOF candidate.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I have no clue how Greene was over looked for most of his career when it came to those awards b/c he was highly productive year in and year out (the same case for Jackson last year). I regard Greene so highly b/c he was such a devastating pass rusher and good run defender. When I rank the top 3-4 OLB's I have him at #2 so that is why I feel he's an excellent HOF candidate. >>
When you say highly productive you mean sacks I assume. Where else was he highly productive? Because if you look at the numbers, Greg Lloyd, his Steelers teammate, was more productive in every other category except sacks. Also, pretty narrow field when you say "top 3-4 OLBs"...Add in all the other LB positions and where does he stack up? If he's still that high, I think you may be mis-remembering how great he really was.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I have no clue how Greene was over looked for most of his career when it came to those awards b/c he was highly productive year in and year out (the same case for Jackson last year). I regard Greene so highly b/c he was such a devastating pass rusher and good run defender. When I rank the top 3-4 OLB's I have him at #2 so that is why I feel he's an excellent HOF candidate. >>
When you say highly productive you mean sacks I assume. Where else was he highly productive? Because if you look at the numbers, Greg Lloyd, his Steelers teammate, was more productive in every other category except sacks. Also, pretty narrow field when you say "top 3-4 OLBs"...Add in all the other LB positions and where does he stack up? If he's still that high, I think you may be mis-remembering how great he really was.
Jason >>
I'm going by his ability to rush the passer and defend the run. IMO he was strong in both areas. I rank the LB positions separately b/c they all have different responsibilities and roles according to the schemes they are part of.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>I'm going by his ability to rush the passer and defend the run. IMO he was strong in both areas. I rank the LB positions separately b/c they all have different responsibilities and roles according to the schemes they are part of. >>
Fair enough. I think you are certainly in the minority when it comes to Greene being more deserving than all the other Defensive candidates (minus Deion), but that's ok. I don;t expect him to go into the HOF, or really even be close within the next 5-10. Derrick Brooks, Junior Seau, Zach Thomas..All will be adding to the list pretty soon, with Brooks and Seau most certainly leapfrogging Greene among defensive players.
I'd be more inclined to say that Greg Lloyd is BY FAR more overlooked than Greene. Greene has been getting fair looks, Lloyd who wan't as dominant for as long as Greene, but sports similar credentials doesn't even get mentioned in the top 25. Same for guys like Steve At-Water and LeRoy Butler who can't seem to get a sniff of the top 25 because of the position they played.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I'll rank them, based on what I saw with me own eyes. I'm subject to persuasion on some, others not so much. For example: Art Modell, DIAF.
Deion Sanders, CB/KR/PR - 4 Marshall Faulk, RB - 1 Willie Roaf, T - 12 Cris Carter, WR - 13 Shannon Sharpe, TE - 17 Richard Dent, DE - 9 Dermontti Dawson, C - 18 Jerome Bettis, RB - 5 Curtis Martin, RB - 3 Andre Reed, WR - 16 Tim Brown, WR/KR - 20 Cortez Kennedy, DT - 19 Lester Hayes, CB - 6 Aeneas Williams, CB/S - 21 Charles Haley, DE/LB - 24 Terrell Davis, RB - 14 Roger Craig, RB - 10 Kevin Greene, LB/DE - 8 Chris Doleman, DE/LB - 25 Ray Guy, P - 2 Ed Sabol, Contributor - 11 Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner - 15 Edward DeBartolo, Jr., Owner - 22 Don Coryell, Coach - 23 George Young, Contributor - 7 Art Modell, Owner - Last, and DIAF. >>
Descent order. Ray Guy at #2 is somewhat surprising. Even for those who believe Punters are deserving, I find it tough to understand what he did to be more deserving than say Cris Carter or Curtis Martin..Both with over 100 career TD's. I think the legend of Ray Guy exceeds the player Ray Guy. As great as he was, there are plenty of other Punters out there who have more punts inside the 20, better Net avg, better yards per punt avg., etc. And also plenty who were part of Super Bowl winning teams. Reggie Roby had better hang time too.
This is his last year of modern eligibility, along with Lester Hayes. MUCH rather see Hayes get the nod rather than Ray Guy.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I'm going by his ability to rush the passer and defend the run. IMO he was strong in both areas. I rank the LB positions separately b/c they all have different responsibilities and roles according to the schemes they are part of. >>
Fair enough. I think you are certainly in the minority when it comes to Greene being more deserving than all the other Defensive candidates (minus Deion), but that's ok. I don;t expect him to go into the HOF, or really even be close within the next 5-10. Derrick Brooks, Junior Seau, Zach Thomas..All will be adding to the list pretty soon, with Brooks and Seau most certainly leapfrogging Greene among defensive players.
I'd be more inclined to say that Greg Lloyd is BY FAR more overlooked than Greene. Greene has been getting fair looks, Lloyd who wan't as dominant for as long as Greene, but sports similar credentials doesn't even get mentioned in the top 25. Same for guys like Steve At-Water and LeRoy Butler who can't seem to get a sniff of the top 25 because of the position they played.
Jason >>
I believe his role as the Packers OLB coach may improve his chances of getting elected sooner rather than later b/c Matthews' play helps to keep him somewhat relevant.
I agree that Seau and Brooks will probably leap frog Greene. IMO Seau might be the most under rated LB of all time. What couldn't he do well?
Great point on Lloyd, he was dominant player but only for a brief period. Greene and Lloyd made a terrific combination since both were agressive playermakers.
As you mentioned before interior OL and S are neglected positions by the voters.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>I believe his role as the Packers OLB coach may improve his chances of getting elected sooner rather than later b/c Matthews' play helps to keep him somewhat relevant.
I agree that Seau and Brooks will probably leap frog Greene. IMO Seau might be the most under rated LB of all time. What couldn't he do well?
Great point on Lloyd, he was dominant player but only for a brief period. Greene and Lloyd made a terrific combination since both were agressive playermakers.
As you mentioned before interior OL and S are neglected positions by the voters. >>
Greene has to crack the top 15 and become a finalist first. Which to date has not happened.
Greene and Lloyd are interesting to compare:
Greene- Played in 228 games, 5 Pro Bowls, 2 All-Pros, , Avg .70 sacks per game, 2.93 tackles per game, 5 INT, 26 fumble recoveries Lloyd- Played in 147 games, 5 Pro Bowls, 3 All-Pros, Avg .37 sacks per game, 4.81 tackles per game, 11 INTs, 16 fumble recoveries
We know Greene played much longer. We know he was better at sacking the QB, and Lloyd was better vs. the run. Lloyd was also better at playing the pass, and was equally adept at making plays. While Greene was the vocal wild man, Lloyd was more aggresive in his style of play, and was always the most feared hitter on the team. Lloyd was also considered the defensive leader during the years he played alongside Kevin Greene.
Greene is consistently been named in the top 25, Lloyd an afterthought. Greene was a media favorite because of his personality, Lloyd was not. So IMO, Lloyd is BY FAR the guy who has been unfairly overlooked. Had he not blown his knee out, but had instead hung on and played another 4-5 years he would be the HOF semifinalist over Greene. Pound for pound on each players best day Greg Lloyd is the guy I want everytime.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I believe his role as the Packers OLB coach may improve his chances of getting elected sooner rather than later b/c Matthews' play helps to keep him somewhat relevant.
I agree that Seau and Brooks will probably leap frog Greene. IMO Seau might be the most under rated LB of all time. What couldn't he do well?
Great point on Lloyd, he was dominant player but only for a brief period. Greene and Lloyd made a terrific combination since both were agressive playermakers.
As you mentioned before interior OL and S are neglected positions by the voters. >>
Greene has to crack the top 15 and become a finalist first. Which to date has not happened.
Greene and Lloyd are interesting to compare:
Greene- Played in 228 games, 5 Pro Bowls, 2 All-Pros, , Avg .70 sacks per game, 2.93 tackles per game, 5 INT, 26 fumble recoveries Lloyd- Played in 147 games, 5 Pro Bowls, 3 All-Pros, Avg .37 sacks per game, 4.81 tackles per game, 11 INTs, 16 fumble recoveries
We know Greene played much longer. We know he was better at sacking the QB, and Lloyd was better vs. the run. Lloyd was also better at playing the pass, and was equally adept at making plays. While Greene was the vocal wild man, Lloyd was more aggresive in his style of play, and was always the most feared hitter on the team. Lloyd was also considered the defensive leader during the years he played alongside Kevin Greene.
Greene is consistently been named in the top 25, Lloyd an afterthought. Greene was a media favorite because of his personality, Lloyd was not. So IMO, Lloyd is BY FAR the guy who has been unfairly overlooked. Had he not blown his knee out, but had instead hung on and played another 4-5 years he would be the HOF semifinalist over Greene. Pound for pound on each players best day Greg Lloyd is the guy I want everytime.
Jason >>
Lloyd was a better player and if his career wasnt cut short, he couldve went on to become one of the best linebackers in history. He was the most feared player in the NFL in the early-mid 90's. In 1995 he knocked out almost every starting QB he faced. And knocked out Emmit smith in super bowl 30 toward the end of the first half. People talk about James Harrrison, but he had nothing over Greg Lloyd. Heck of an athlete. Ran a 4.4 40. and had a black belt in martial arts.
<< <i> Lloyd was a better player and if his career wasnt cut short, he couldve went on to become one of the best linebackers in history. He was the most feared player in the NFL in the early-mid 90's. In 1995 he knocked out almost every starting QB he faced. And knocked out Emmit smith in super bowl 30 toward the end of the first half. People talk about James Harrrison, but he had nothing over Greg Lloyd. Heck of an athlete. Ran a 4.4 40. and had a black belt in martial arts. >>
And this is why I have a hard time buying Kevin Greene as the #2 All-Time 3-4 OLB, or even a top 5 HOF candidate in this class. When I watched those Steeler films when they had Lloyd AND Greene playing on opposite ends, it was Lloyd who was feared. Greene made some plays and was great getting around the edge to pressure the QB..But it was Lloyd who made it count when he hit the QB, or RB or WR. To me, he was the best player on that defense (post Rod Woodson knee injury) by quite a large margin. Greene was the sidekick.
Not to mention, Lloyd has better credentials (5 Pro Bowls and THREE 1st team All-Pro selections, even though he played 5 fewer seasons).
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I believe his role as the Packers OLB coach may improve his chances of getting elected sooner rather than later b/c Matthews' play helps to keep him somewhat relevant.
I agree that Seau and Brooks will probably leap frog Greene. IMO Seau might be the most under rated LB of all time. What couldn't he do well?
Great point on Lloyd, he was dominant player but only for a brief period. Greene and Lloyd made a terrific combination since both were agressive playermakers.
As you mentioned before interior OL and S are neglected positions by the voters. >>
Greene has to crack the top 15 and become a finalist first. Which to date has not happened.
Greene and Lloyd are interesting to compare:
Greene- Played in 228 games, 5 Pro Bowls, 2 All-Pros, , Avg .70 sacks per game, 2.93 tackles per game, 5 INT, 26 fumble recoveries Lloyd- Played in 147 games, 5 Pro Bowls, 3 All-Pros, Avg .37 sacks per game, 4.81 tackles per game, 11 INTs, 16 fumble recoveries
We know Greene played much longer. We know he was better at sacking the QB, and Lloyd was better vs. the run. Lloyd was also better at playing the pass, and was equally adept at making plays. While Greene was the vocal wild man, Lloyd was more aggresive in his style of play, and was always the most feared hitter on the team. Lloyd was also considered the defensive leader during the years he played alongside Kevin Greene.
Greene is consistently been named in the top 25, Lloyd an afterthought. Greene was a media favorite because of his personality, Lloyd was not. So IMO, Lloyd is BY FAR the guy who has been unfairly overlooked. Had he not blown his knee out, but had instead hung on and played another 4-5 years he would be the HOF semifinalist over Greene. Pound for pound on each players best day Greg Lloyd is the guy I want everytime.
Jason >>
Lloyd was a better player and if his career wasnt cut short, he couldve went on to become one of the best linebackers in history. He was the most feared player in the NFL in the early-mid 90's. In 1995 he knocked out almost every starting QB he faced. And knocked out Emmit smith in super bowl 30 toward the end of the first half. People talk about James Harrrison, but he had nothing over Greg Lloyd. Heck of an athlete. Ran a 4.4 40. and had a black belt in martial arts. >>
Smith sprained his knee but returned in the second half to score 2 TD's. He wasn't as effective in the 2nd half b/c of the knee but still got the job done when the Cowboys needed him.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i> Lloyd was a better player and if his career wasnt cut short, he couldve went on to become one of the best linebackers in history. He was the most feared player in the NFL in the early-mid 90's. In 1995 he knocked out almost every starting QB he faced. And knocked out Emmit smith in super bowl 30 toward the end of the first half. People talk about James Harrrison, but he had nothing over Greg Lloyd. Heck of an athlete. Ran a 4.4 40. and had a black belt in martial arts. >>
And this is why I have a hard time buying Kevin Greene as the #2 All-Time 3-4 OLB, or even a top 5 HOF candidate in this class. When I watched those Steeler films when they had Lloyd AND Greene playing on opposite ends, it was Lloyd who was feared. Greene made some plays and was great getting around the edge to pressure the QB..But it was Lloyd who made it count when he hit the QB, or RB or WR. To me, he was the best player on that defense (post Rod Woodson knee injury) by quite a large margin. Greene was the sidekick.
Not to mention, Lloyd has better credentials (5 Pro Bowls and THREE 1st team All-Pro selections, even though he played 5 fewer seasons).
Jason >>
Lloyd was better in coverage but both played the run very well. The pass rush is where Greene separated himself from Lloyd and pretty much every other 3-4 OLB besides Taylor.
Lloyd was a big media favorite as well. Fans loved his attitude and aggression on the field. "Avoid Lloyd"
IMO Greene was never anyone's sidekick. In fact his production stayed the same no matter what team he was on or who he played with.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Lloyd was better in coverage but both played the run very well. The pass rush is where Greene separated himself from Lloyd and pretty much every other 3-4 OLB besides Taylor.
Lloyd was a big media favorite as well. Fans loved his attitude and aggression on the field. "Avoid Lloyd"
IMO Greene was never anyone's sidekick. In fact his production stayed the same no matter what team he was on or who he played with. >>
Lloyd was a big media favorite? Yikes....I think we have officially reached the end of this debate. lol
Especially if we are even speaking Greene and Lawrence Taylor in the same paragraph. That's just silly.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Lloyd was better in coverage but both played the run very well. The pass rush is where Greene separated himself from Lloyd and pretty much every other 3-4 OLB besides Taylor.
Lloyd was a big media favorite as well. Fans loved his attitude and aggression on the field. "Avoid Lloyd"
IMO Greene was never anyone's sidekick. In fact his production stayed the same no matter what team he was on or who he played with. >>
Lloyd was a big media favorite? Yikes....I think we have officially reached the end of this debate. lol
Especially if we are even speaking Greene and Lawrence Taylor in the same paragraph. That's just silly.
Jason >>
Lloyd received a ton of coverage as did the rest of the Steelers mid 90's defense (Lake, Woodson, Greene, Kirkland, Brown). The media really seemed to push Lloyd and his nasty on field disposition.
I'm sorry but Greene was just as successful as a pass rusher and run defender as LT.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>I believe his role as the Packers OLB coach may improve his chances of getting elected sooner rather than later b/c Matthews' play helps to keep him somewhat relevant.
I agree that Seau and Brooks will probably leap frog Greene. IMO Seau might be the most under rated LB of all time. What couldn't he do well?
Great point on Lloyd, he was dominant player but only for a brief period. Greene and Lloyd made a terrific combination since both were agressive playermakers.
As you mentioned before interior OL and S are neglected positions by the voters. >>
Greene has to crack the top 15 and become a finalist first. Which to date has not happened.
Greene and Lloyd are interesting to compare:
Greene- Played in 228 games, 5 Pro Bowls, 2 All-Pros, , Avg .70 sacks per game, 2.93 tackles per game, 5 INT, 26 fumble recoveries Lloyd- Played in 147 games, 5 Pro Bowls, 3 All-Pros, Avg .37 sacks per game, 4.81 tackles per game, 11 INTs, 16 fumble recoveries
We know Greene played much longer. We know he was better at sacking the QB, and Lloyd was better vs. the run. Lloyd was also better at playing the pass, and was equally adept at making plays. While Greene was the vocal wild man, Lloyd was more aggresive in his style of play, and was always the most feared hitter on the team. Lloyd was also considered the defensive leader during the years he played alongside Kevin Greene.
Greene is consistently been named in the top 25, Lloyd an afterthought. Greene was a media favorite because of his personality, Lloyd was not. So IMO, Lloyd is BY FAR the guy who has been unfairly overlooked. Had he not blown his knee out, but had instead hung on and played another 4-5 years he would be the HOF semifinalist over Greene. Pound for pound on each players best day Greg Lloyd is the guy I want everytime.
Jason >>
Lloyd was a better player and if his career wasnt cut short, he couldve went on to become one of the best linebackers in history. He was the most feared player in the NFL in the early-mid 90's. In 1995 he knocked out almost every starting QB he faced. And knocked out Emmit smith in super bowl 30 toward the end of the first half. People talk about James Harrrison, but he had nothing over Greg Lloyd. Heck of an athlete. Ran a 4.4 40. and had a black belt in martial arts. >>
Smith sprained his knee but returned in the second half to score 2 TD's. He wasn't as effective in the 2nd half b/c of the knee but still got the job done when the Cowboys needed him. >>
It was Smiths worst super bowl performance. The steelers outrushed the cowboys 103 to 56 yds(2.2 average yds a rush) Smith scored on 2 short runs after stupid steeler mistakes. Smith had 18 carries for 49 yrds.
I'm sorry but Greene was just as successful as a pass rusher and run defender as LT. >>
So let me get this straight. The experts who voted for the top 100 players of all-time,( Top 100 List )voted LT #3, and the BEST defensive player in NFL history, and left Kevin Greene off the list entirely based on Taylor's ability in pass coverage?
I'm beginning to wonder if you even watch football or you just read stat sheets. Your statement above absolutely blows my mind. I don't even know how to debate this one. It's like saying Vinny Testaverde was better than Joe Montana because he had more passing yards. It's insanity. It's not always about the stats. You have to watch the guys play and then know what you are seeing when you watch it. Short of being able to do that, please just take the experts words for it. lolol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'm sorry but Greene was just as successful as a pass rusher and run defender as LT. >>
So let me get this straight. The experts who voted for the top 100 players of all-time,( Top 100 List )voted LT #3, and the BEST defensive player in NFL history, and left Kevin Greene off the list entirely based on Taylor's ability in pass coverage?
I'm beginning to wonder if you even watch football or you just read stat sheets. Your statement above absolutely blows my mind. I don't even know how to debate this one. It's like saying Vinny Testaverde was better than Joe Montana because he had more passing yards. It's insanity. It's not always about the stats. You have to watch the guys play and then know what you are seeing when you watch it. Short of being able to do that, please just take the experts words for it. lolol
Jason >>
Sorry you disagree but I saw them both play and I found Greene to be nearly on LT's level as a pass rusher and run defender. LT is iconic b/c of the speed he brought to the position and the way he could rush the passer. LT transformed the OLB position and made a name for himself in doing do. Playing in New York didn't hurt either.lol
IMO I am pretty knowledgable about the game and feel comfortable in the thoughts I have expressed. I played football from grade school through college so I do have a firm grasp on the fundamentals of the game and know what I am looking at when I watch a game. I am not a lemming and like to form my own opinions on players and the game in general.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Here's the list of 15 finalists as announced by the Pro FB HOF today:
Enshrinement Class of 2011 finalists 01/09/2011
Five first-year eligible players – Jerome Bettis, Marshall Faulk, Curtis Martin, Deion Sanders, and Willie Roaf – are among the 15 modern-era finalists who will be considered for election to the Pro Football Hall of Fame when the Hall’s Selection Committee meets in North Texas on Saturday, Feb. 5, 2011.
Joining the five first-year eligible players, are nine other modern-era players and a contributor. The 15 modern-era finalists, along with the two senior nominees announced in August 2010 (former Washington Redskins linebacker Chris Hanburger and former Los Angeles Rams linebacker Les Richter) will be the only candidates considered for Hall of Fame election when the 44-member Selection Committee meets. To be elected, a finalist must receive a minimum positive vote of 80 percent.
Also, for the second consecutive year, the Pro Football Hall of Fame has teamed up with Van Heusen and JCPenney to ask fans to voice their choice for whom they think should be included in the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s Class of 2011 at www.fanschoice.com.
The Pro Football Hall of Fame Selection Committee’s 17 finalists (15 modern-era and two senior nominees*) with their positions, teams, and years active follow:
Jerome Bettis Tim Brown Cris Carter Dermontti Dawson Richard Dent Chris Doleman Marshall Faulk Charles Haley *Chris Hanburger Cortez Kennedy Curtis Martin Andre Reed *Les Richter Willie Roaf Ed Sabol Deion Sanders Shannon Sharpe
Well, Deion Sanders and Marshall Faulk should be 100% no question slam dunks on that list. I think Roaf should in too, along with Carter, Bettis, Hanburger, Sharpe, and Dawson. Heck, Dent should be in too, but 7 is the limit. I say let's do 7 and clear out some of these guys that should have gone in already.
<< <i>Well, Deion Sanders and Marshall Faulk should be 100% no question slam dunks on that list. I think Roaf should in too, along with Carter, Bettis, Hanburger, Sharpe, and Dawson. Heck, Dent should be in too, but 7 is the limit. I say let's do 7 and clear out some of these guys that should have gone in already. >>
the problem with the 7 is 5 are guys that should be in, and 2 iffy guys will get a shot (Senior committee guys). Guys like Floyd Little and that nutjob Tommy MacDonald should not be in, but since they get more romanticized with time they are.
Deion, Faulk, Roaf and Hanburger should easily get in. Martin did more lesser teams than Bettis. Martin was always an underappreciated back great imho. He played great in a number of systems for numerous teams. 1 or 2 others may get in to free up the list a little for future votes. I think this will be a big class.
<< <i>the problem with the 7 is 5 are guys that should be in, and 2 iffy guys will get a shot (Senior committee guys). Guys like Floyd Little and that nutjob Tommy MacDonald should not be in, but since they get more romanticized with time they are. >>
Chris Hanburger was a nine time Pro Bowler and a four time first team All-Pro. He's not "iffy."
There are a couple of locks...but allow me to jump on Peter King's bandwagon and say that Ed Sabol should get in no matter what. This is his first time in the finals and how we view the history of football would be dramatically different without the existence of NFL Films. There needs to be a change in the rules of admission and they should have a special one per year "contributor" category. It's ridiculous that people have to choose between Deion Sanders and Ed Sabol. Both are just as deserving as one another.
I agree that Ed Sabol is LONG overdue to be voted into the HOF. I'm really disappointed that Don Coryall wasn't named as a finalist. He's the best coach not in the HOF.
Rgs,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
<< <i> There needs to be a change in the rules of admission and they should have a special one per year "contributor" category. It's ridiculous that people have to choose between Deion Sanders and Ed Sabol. Both are just as deserving as one another. >>
That's a great idea. It would be a good way to reconginze important figues who fall outside the rubrics of player, coach or administrator. Someone like Paul Zimmerman would also be a good candidate.
Cris Carter Marshall Faulk Chris Hanburger Willie Roaf Deion Sanders Dermontti Dawson Ed Sabol
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
Agreed, he averaged almost 3 tackles and made up the rest with a high amount of sacks. Even toward the end of his career with carolina he led the league. He was also a very popular player among the fans. When the steelers released him after he helped lead them to the super bowl, their front office got alot of hate mail. >>
OK. Well, I guess I must be off on Greene (along with the rest of the HOF voters). He keeps making the top 25, but not the top 15. I don't see an injustice, but obviously if he was a fan favorite it was 100% due to his play on the field and not his wildman personality...lol...Of course the play at LB dropped VERY dramatically when he left too...Even today, the Steelers can never seem to find LBs who can rush the passer. (please note the sarcasm here).
Also, when a player gets a SACK, he is also credited with a tackle on the play. So subtract his sack totals from his tackle totals and then you'll have his tackles vs. the run. Which then ends up around 2 per game..Which is horrendous for a LB.
To each his own, address your hate mail to the voters, maybe they will bypass a more deserving Richard Dent again for another 3-4 edge blitzer(Fred Dean, Andre Tippett, Rickey Jackson, Derrick Thomas..All recent electees and ALL elected OVER Kevin Greene)
Jason >>
I have no clue how Tippett or Dean leap frogged Greene when he was the better OLB and pass rusher. IMO Greene is hurt by the fact that he isn't really identified with any one francise. With most of the HOF'ers I can picture them with "their" team or teams but w/ Greene I think of him as a Free Agent w/out an organization.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>I didn't see much of Greene after he left the Steelers since Panthers and 49'ers games aren't usually carried in my area. I'm a little confused, so they stopped rushing Greene (leaving to play coverage) so he could have a better chance of catching runners from the backside in pursuit? While OLB'ers can chase things down from behind I would place more emphasis on their ability to clog the run on their side of the offense. Greene was always pretty good at the point of attack and could stretch plays, collapse running lanes, or shed blockers.
His sack totals per year were still very impressive after he left the Steelers: 96-14.5, 97-10.5, 98-15.0, 99-12.0. >>
No argument that the guy was a great pass rusher. Problem is, so where a bunch of other similar players. And when you have 4-5 guys who were ALL great at rushing the passer, you have to look at other things in trying to decide who is more deserving than who.
If you watch Greene in his later years, when he isn;t rushing the passer (like a DE), they had him playing more on the strong side, over the tight end. And covering the tight end. He always had descent wheels and a non-stop motor for a guy of his size. But the fact is, he was never great at the point of attack or shedding blockers. That was always his weakness even on the Steelers. You get a Guard pulling to block him and its over, hes done. He was the classic tweener..Too small to play every down DE, too big to play affective OLB. He was at his best as a 3-4 OLB rushing the passer. He's been mentioned for I think 4 years straight now as one of the top 25 HOF candidates. That alone says he was a GREAT player. But problem is, only 5 of those 25 can get in every year.
While Dean I can agree with you on, Greene was NOT in any way shape or form a better player than Andre Tippett or Rickey Jackson...And wasn't better than Richard Dent. Haley/Doleman/Greene, honestly are all very close overall and you could make a good case for any of the 3.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>I didn't see much of Greene after he left the Steelers since Panthers and 49'ers games aren't usually carried in my area. I'm a little confused, so they stopped rushing Greene (leaving to play coverage) so he could have a better chance of catching runners from the backside in pursuit? While OLB'ers can chase things down from behind I would place more emphasis on their ability to clog the run on their side of the offense. Greene was always pretty good at the point of attack and could stretch plays, collapse running lanes, or shed blockers.
His sack totals per year were still very impressive after he left the Steelers: 96-14.5, 97-10.5, 98-15.0, 99-12.0. >>
No argument that the guy was a great pass rusher. Problem is, so where a bunch of other similar players. And when you have 4-5 guys who were ALL great at rushing the passer, you have to look at other things in trying to decide who is more deserving than who.
If you watch Greene in his later years, when he isn;t rushing the passer (like a DE), they had him playing more on the strong side, over the tight end. And covering the tight end. He always had descent wheels and a non-stop motor for a guy of his size. But the fact is, he was never great at the point of attack or shedding blockers. That was always his weakness even on the Steelers. You get a Guard pulling to block him and its over, hes done. He was the classic tweener..Too small to play every down DE, too big to play affective OLB. He was at his best as a 3-4 OLB rushing the passer. He's been mentioned for I think 4 years straight now as one of the top 25 HOF candidates. That alone says he was a GREAT player. But problem is, only 5 of those 25 can get in every year.
While Dean I can agree with you on, Greene was NOT in any way shape or form a better player than Andre Tippett or Rickey Jackson...And wasn't better than Richard Dent. Haley/Doleman/Greene, honestly are all very close overall and you could make a good case for any of the 3. >>
I'll have to find some film on Greene b/c I remember him as a very effective run stopper b/c of his size and strength. I don't see how he wouldn't be as good Jackson or LT against the run b/c he was a larger OLB.
How was Tippet better OLB? The sack totals aren't even close.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>I'll have to find some film on Greene b/c I remember him as a very effective run stopper b/c of his size and strength. I don't see how he wouldn't be as good Jackson or LT against the run b/c he was a larger OLB.
How was Tippet better OLB? The sack totals aren't even close. >>
Greene was big and strong, but wasn't big enough or strong enough to hold the point. Most LB's aren't. And it's why he played LB and not exclusively DE. Definitely take some time to look him up and watch. He wasn't a BUM against the run (like say Dwight Freeney for example), but he was mostly average with a sprinkle of being a run game liability at times.
Tippett was better because he was not a designated pass rusher. Greene was a better PASS RUSHER, Tippett was a complete LB, as was Jackson (during his Saint years, he ended up becoming a DPR at the end as well)..Lawrence Taylor was DOMINANT in every phase..Pass rusher, run defense, pass defense. I think maybe that's the one piece we are disconnecting on. I am grading Greene on his complete game, not just that he was a great pass rusher. Pass rusher is just one phase of the game, and as I've said he was or was at least very close to being HOF caliber at rushing the passer. But he was weak in other areas of the game. And because of that, he's been bypassed by other LBs who were more complete players. Don't take my word for it though. The voting says it all.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
No full time special teams player deserves the Hall!
<< <i>give up on Guy, he is a PUNTER!!!
No full time special teams player deserves the Hall! >>
The fact P-Ks were only involved in a handful of snaps per game is a very weak argument. Punters, having more influence than perhaps any other player on field position, influence the game more than most give them credit for.
My father was a punter in college so perhaps I'm unfairly impartial to them.
But if non-players (ie Sabol, etc) are given finalist consideration without ever playing a single down, then special teams players and P-Ks should also.
No one is suggesting they be given equal consideration.
But the very best at the position over the past 30 years (ie Ray Guy) should definitely get in.
<< <i>
But if non-players (ie Sabol, etc) are given finalist consideration without ever playing a single down, then special teams players and P-Ks should also. >>
Ray Guy has been a HOF finalist on 7 occasions. That means 7 times he had has case made before the HOF committee and 7 times he was not selected. In fact he's never made the cut to the final 10 or 8 (Pre-2008). I think that is a VERY fair shot. He's been looked at quite extensively and other players/owners/coaches have been selected over him.
There simply hasn't been enough support either publically or in the HOF committee for voting a Punter in. It's a split decision, and you need 80% for HOF election. You can say the voting process is flawed, but honestly is 80% of the public think Ray Guy should go in over these other players? It's been the correct call.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
There are quite a few questionable selections in the Hall already.
I think the biggest issue with punters, kickers and safeties not really getting a fair shot is that there is a backlog of guys at more skilled positions that need to get in first. If that issue is solved then guys can be admitted on standard of play vs their peers, which is the ONLY way to qualify candidates.
Argue all you want about whether Ray Guy was the best punter of his era -- that's a viable argument. But I'll never agree with anyone who says punters don't deserve to get in because they didn't play as many downs or weren't a "skilled" position. Use that argument and then why bother with tight ends (too fat and slow to be WR), WR, D or O line. Hell, why not just allow QB's and RB's and really focus on pure skill.
First solution is to revamp the voter lineup -- that solves 90% of the problem.
Next up, get rid of the backlog of deserving candidates. This all could get done over 3-5 years.
Lastly, we need to stop fawning over the almost Hall-worthy modern candidates. If they don't stand head and shoulders above their peers then leave them out. For every Kevin Greene there is a vintage era player that was better standing on the outside of the Hall looking in.
That's my rant for the day.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'll have to find some film on Greene b/c I remember him as a very effective run stopper b/c of his size and strength. I don't see how he wouldn't be as good Jackson or LT against the run b/c he was a larger OLB.
How was Tippet better OLB? The sack totals aren't even close. >>
Greene was big and strong, but wasn't big enough or strong enough to hold the point. Most LB's aren't. And it's why he played LB and not exclusively DE. Definitely take some time to look him up and watch. He wasn't a BUM against the run (like say Dwight Freeney for example), but he was mostly average with a sprinkle of being a run game liability at times.
Tippett was better because he was not a designated pass rusher. Greene was a better PASS RUSHER, Tippett was a complete LB, as was Jackson (during his Saint years, he ended up becoming a DPR at the end as well)..Lawrence Taylor was DOMINANT in every phase..Pass rusher, run defense, pass defense. I think maybe that's the one piece we are disconnecting on. I am grading Greene on his complete game, not just that he was a great pass rusher. Pass rusher is just one phase of the game, and as I've said he was or was at least very close to being HOF caliber at rushing the passer. But he was weak in other areas of the game. And because of that, he's been bypassed by other LBs who were more complete players. Don't take my word for it though. The voting says it all. >>
I can't argue that pass coverage was Greene's weaker area but when comparing him to Taylor, Tippett, or Jackson I don't understand how he could have issues against the run when he was larger than any of them and probably stronger (he was in great shape for being around 250). I went back watched Super Bowl 30 and some additional clips of Greene and I saw an OLB that was very effective against the run. He did a good job collapsing the running lanes to force the RB back inside and he only missed 1 tackle. In Super Bowl 30 he was especially strong at the point of tackle shedding blocks from the FB, TE, and pulling G. I know its only a small sampling but the video I watched suggested that Greene was difficult to run against and not a liability in this area.
I believe Greene has not been recognized by the voters b/c he lacks an affiliation to any one team. If you look at Tippett and Jackson both played the majority of their career w/ 1 team and they were voted in the year that team was a Super Bowl contender. Greene does not have that advantage.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
August 27, 1997|By Ira Miller, Chronicle Staff Writer
When he was a free agent a year ago, Kevin Greene got no attention from the 49ers because, they believed, he could only play on one side of the defensive line (the left side), and they wanted their ends to be able to work both sides.
Never mind that he did it very well.
The 49ers instead wound up signing Chris Doleman, and they soon found out he could best operate on just one side of the line, too (the right side). Today, they will sign Greene, giving their defense two of the NFL's top five active career leaders in sacks. Carolina released Greene on Sunday following a summerlong contract holdout, and he could give the 49ers just what they need: A shot of raw emotion.
"He's energized and motivated," said Carmen Policy, the 49ers' president. "On the phone, he sounded like a 7.5 quake. The persona of Kevin Greene is more attractive to us at this point than it might otherwise have been, if we hadn't quite experienced the blandness during our play in the preseason."
A personnel executive with one NFC team described Greene as an "I guy," saying, "He wants to be a hero. All he wants to do is be an stand-up pass-rusher." But, the executive added, that was not necessarily a bad thing.
"He does it good. He's a tough guy, exactly what you want. He'll add some toughness, and he'll get all over other players. He'll be in their faces."
Greene, who led the NFL in sacks for the second time last year with 14 1/2 for Carolina, has led his team in sacks nine years in a row with the Rams, Steelers and Panthers. He flew last night from his Alabama home to the Bay Area and will be on the practice field today.
Few players in the league play with more intensity. And, although Greene
turned 35 in July, he has not slowed down, averaging 12 sacks a year since his 30th birthday. His career total, 122 1/2, ranks fourth among active players, just ahead of Doleman.
Greene is not nearly as good against the run, however, and, in fact, the word around the league is that he is considered a liability against the run. The Panthers' coaches considered Greene an average run defender.
Although the 49ers grew interested late, Greene's signing is consistent with their pattern. He's another old player -- there are now 15 on the roster who have been in the NFL at least a decade -- and he signed a contract that, while it won't hurt the 49ers against the salary cap this season, could have some effect in later years.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>49ers Get Pass-Rusher Greene / 1996 NFL sack leader will play on left side
August 27, 1997|By Ira Miller, Chronicle Staff Writer
When he was a free agent a year ago, Kevin Greene got no attention from the 49ers because, they believed, he could only play on one side of the defensive line (the left side), and they wanted their ends to be able to work both sides.
Never mind that he did it very well.
The 49ers instead wound up signing Chris Doleman, and they soon found out he could best operate on just one side of the line, too (the right side). Today, they will sign Greene, giving their defense two of the NFL's top five active career leaders in sacks. Carolina released Greene on Sunday following a summerlong contract holdout, and he could give the 49ers just what they need: A shot of raw emotion.
"He's energized and motivated," said Carmen Policy, the 49ers' president. "On the phone, he sounded like a 7.5 quake. The persona of Kevin Greene is more attractive to us at this point than it might otherwise have been, if we hadn't quite experienced the blandness during our play in the preseason."
A personnel executive with one NFC team described Greene as an "I guy," saying, "He wants to be a hero. All he wants to do is be an stand-up pass-rusher." But, the executive added, that was not necessarily a bad thing.
"He does it good. He's a tough guy, exactly what you want. He'll add some toughness, and he'll get all over other players. He'll be in their faces."
Greene, who led the NFL in sacks for the second time last year with 14 1/2 for Carolina, has led his team in sacks nine years in a row with the Rams, Steelers and Panthers. He flew last night from his Alabama home to the Bay Area and will be on the practice field today.
Few players in the league play with more intensity. And, although Greene
turned 35 in July, he has not slowed down, averaging 12 sacks a year since his 30th birthday. His career total, 122 1/2, ranks fourth among active players, just ahead of Doleman.
Greene is not nearly as good against the run, however, and, in fact, the word around the league is that he is considered a liability against the run. The Panthers' coaches considered Greene an average run defender.
Although the 49ers grew interested late, Greene's signing is consistent with their pattern. He's another old player -- there are now 15 on the roster who have been in the NFL at least a decade -- and he signed a contract that, while it won't hurt the 49ers against the salary cap this season, could have some effect in later years. >>
I don't think the perceived "liability" against the run comes from his inability to get off blocks but rather going to far up field (as if he was playing the pass) based on the comments about being a hero and getting to the QB. IMO the Panthers coaches were down playing his ability against the run b/c he was a former player they didn't want back at the time. Former teams don't often speak highly of older players they choose to release.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
I don't think the perceived "liability" against the run comes from his inability to get off blocks but rather going to far up field (as if he was playing the pass) based on the comments about being a hero and getting to the QB. IMO the Panthers coaches were down playing his ability against the run b/c he was a former player they didn't want back at the time. Former teams don't often speak highly of older players they choose to release. >>
I think we will just have to agree to disagree on Kevin Greene's run stopping prowess. How about this though. Rank these 26 Semifinalists based on your opinion, with #1 being the most deserving candidate, and #26 being the least deserving. I'd love to see where Greene stacks up on your list. If he isn't in your top 5, then how has he been overlooked or screwed over in some way. Here are my personal rankings of these 26, and Greene is no where near the top 5. Only 5 can get in. He's 17th on my list, which is based 100% on my opinion and not what I think will happen. I do not predict my top 5 will go into the HOF this year.
Deion Sanders, CB/KR/PR
Marshall Faulk, RB
Willie Roaf, T
Cris Carter, WR
Shannon Sharpe, TE
Richard Dent, DE
Dermontti Dawson, C
Jerome Bettis, RB
Curtis Martin, RB
Andre Reed, WR
Tim Brown, WR/KR
Cortez Kennedy, DT
Lester Hayes, CB
Aeneas Williams, CB/S
Charles Haley, DE/LB
Terrell Davis, RB
Roger Craig, RB
Kevin Greene, LB/DE
Chris Doleman, DE/LB
Ray Guy, P
Ed Sabol, Contributor
Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner
Edward DeBartolo, Jr., Owner
Don Coryell, Coach
George Young, Contributor
Art Modell, Owner
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
I don't think the perceived "liability" against the run comes from his inability to get off blocks but rather going to far up field (as if he was playing the pass) based on the comments about being a hero and getting to the QB. IMO the Panthers coaches were down playing his ability against the run b/c he was a former player they didn't want back at the time. Former teams don't often speak highly of older players they choose to release. >>
I think we will just have to agree to disagree on Kevin Greene's run stopping prowess. How about this though. Rank these 26 Semifinalists based on your opinion, with #1 being the most deserving candidate, and #26 being the least deserving. I'd love to see where Greene stacks up on your list. If he isn't in your top 5, then how has he been overlooked or screwed over in some way. Here are my personal rankings of these 26, and Greene is no where near the top 5. Only 5 can get in. He's 17th on my list, which is based 100% on my opinion and not what I think will happen. I do not predict my top 5 will go into the HOF this year.
Deion Sanders, CB/KR/PR
Marshall Faulk, RB
Willie Roaf, T
Cris Carter, WR
Shannon Sharpe, TE
Richard Dent, DE
Dermontti Dawson, C
Jerome Bettis, RB
Curtis Martin, RB
Andre Reed, WR
Tim Brown, WR/KR
Cortez Kennedy, DT
Lester Hayes, CB
Aeneas Williams, CB/S
Charles Haley, DE/LB
Terrell Davis, RB
Roger Craig, RB
Kevin Greene, LB/DE
Chris Doleman, DE/LB
Ray Guy, P
Ed Sabol, Contributor
Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner
Edward DeBartolo, Jr., Owner
Don Coryell, Coach
George Young, Contributor
Art Modell, Owner >>
My "not a prediction" five:
Sabol
Sanders
Dawson
Greene
Faulk
I really have no objections to any of the names on the list and would like to eventually see all the players and Coryell get in. I have nothing against the other contributors but feel Sabol is easily the most deseving out of them and even the players due to the impact that NFL Films has had on the game.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
That's a nutty top 5, but hey, it's your opinion on the 5 most deserving, so can't really argue with that. Although I have no idea what criteria you used to arrive at them, but very interesting to say the least.
Just looking at the defensive players alone (which make for an easier comparison), you have Greene being a more deserving HOF worthy player than:
Richard Dent, Cortez Kennedy, Lester Hayes, Aeneas Williams, Charles Haley, and Chris Doleman
Honestly I can't even imagine what you were watching in the late 80's and 1990's. Are you sure you had regular season NFL football on your TV??? Cause i just can't imagine another guy on the planet not named Kevin Greene who would also put him in front of each of those 6 players.
Sabol might just get the nod this year. I'm still holding out hope that they will change their bylaws again and use that 2nd Senior candidate slot for owners/contributers/coaches and leave the players to compete against just other players. You do understand that these 26 names are COMPETING against one another for those 5 slots right? The majority of the HOF committee meeting entails comparing these guys to each other and selecting the MOST deserving when typically all of your final 15 are at least somewhat deserving.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>WOW...
That's a nutty top 5, but hey, it's your opinion on the 5 most deserving, so can't really argue with that. Although I have no idea what criteria you used to arrive at them, but very interesting to say the least.
Just looking at the defensive players alone (which make for an easier comparison), you have Greene being a more deserving HOF worthy player than:
Richard Dent, Cortez Kennedy, Lester Hayes, Aeneas Williams, Charles Haley, and Chris Doleman
Honestly I can't even imagine what you were watching in the late 80's and 1990's. Are you sure you had regular season NFL football on your TV??? Cause i just can't imagine another guy on the planet not named Kevin Greene who would also put him in front of each of those 6 players.
Sabol might just get the nod this year. I'm still holding out hope that they will change their bylaws again and use that 2nd Senior candidate slot for owners/contributers/coaches and leave the players to compete against just other players. You do understand that these 26 names are COMPETING against one another for those 5 slots right? The majority of the HOF committee meeting entails comparing these guys to each other and selecting the MOST deserving when typically all of your final 15 are at least somewhat deserving.
Jason >>
I considered the players that were the best at their positions when they played.
Sanders was the best cover CB of his time
Faulk had a window where he was the best back in the game
Dawson was easily the top guy at his position during the 90's
Greene was the second best pass rushing OLB in NFL history
When I watched Greene I saw a dominant OLB who was fierce against the run and the pass. While Greene wasn't great against the pass (also not his responsibility) he made up for it by being one of the games top pass rushers. The fact that he ranks at #3 on the official and #4 on the unoffical all time sack list is very impressive.
Yes I do understand and I feel like many of the players are comparable in regards to their level of greatness.
I like your senior selection idea.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Deion Sanders, CB
Marshall Faulk, RB
Willie Roaf, T
Cris Carter, WR
Shannon Sharpe, TE
Richard Dent, DE
Dermontti Dawson, C
Cortez Kennedy, DT
Kevin Greene, OLB
Ray Guy, P
Here are 10 guys who are all the best at their positions. So you are saying that OLB Greene, who made 5 Pro Bowls as an OLB and was selected as a 1st team All-Pro exactly twice in his 15 year career is more deserving than Willie Roaf who was made 11 Pro Bowls and was selected as a 1st team All-Pro three times. Also Shannon Sharpe who made 8 Pro Bowls and was selected as the top TE in the game 4 years.
I guess this is where you somewhat lose me with your thinking. I can buy Greene as the best available pass rusher or OLB (although I actually prefer Charles Haley), but I don;t understand how or why if Greene was THAT great, why he wasn't recognized more during his playing career. I understand someone saying Chris Hanburger has been overlooked when it comes to HOF induction. Because he was a guy who was given plenty of credit during his playing days but got lost in the shuffle after retiring..But a guy like Greene, how can a guy with his personality get "lost in the shuffle" during his playing career?
As flawed as the voting process can be, the fact that a borderline HOFer like Greene is CORRECTLY waiting in line while more deserving players go in, at least tells me they are attempting to take HONEST looks at each and every players career. They don't always get it right (IMO), but in Greene's case, for me, he's in line exactly where he should be..Which is somewhere between 15-20. Give it a few years, maybe 5-10, and he should eventually work his way to the top and be inducted. I do think he is deserving, just not before the other more deserving guys.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Selecting by position is a smart way to decipher. The committee DEFINITELY does it when they have players at multiple positions. But making someone the best available at their position is step 1. For example:
Deion Sanders, CB
Marshall Faulk, RB
Willie Roaf, T
Cris Carter, WR
Shannon Sharpe, TE
Richard Dent, DE
Dermontti Dawson, C
Cortez Kennedy, DT
Kevin Greene, OLB
Ray Guy, P
Here are 10 guys who are all the best at their positions. So you are saying that OLB Greene, who made 5 Pro Bowls as an OLB and was selected as a 1st team All-Pro exactly twice in his 15 year career is more deserving than Willie Roaf who was made 11 Pro Bowls and was selected as a 1st team All-Pro three times. Also Shannon Sharpe who made 8 Pro Bowls and was selected as the top TE in the game 4 years.
I guess this is where you somewhat lose me with your thinking. I can buy Greene as the best available pass rusher or OLB (although I actually prefer Charles Haley), but I don;t understand how or why if Greene was THAT great, why he wasn't recognized more during his playing career. I understand someone saying Chris Hanburger has been overlooked when it comes to HOF induction. Because he was a guy who was given plenty of credit during his playing days but got lost in the shuffle after retiring..But a guy like Greene, how can a guy with his personality get "lost in the shuffle" during his playing career?
As flawed as the voting process can be, the fact that a borderline HOFer like Greene is CORRECTLY waiting in line while more deserving players go in, at least tells me they are attempting to take HONEST looks at each and every players career. They don't always get it right (IMO), but in Greene's case, for me, he's in line exactly where he should be..Which is somewhere between 15-20. Give it a few years, maybe 5-10, and he should eventually work his way to the top and be inducted. I do think he is deserving, just not before the other more deserving guys.
Jason >>
I have no clue how Greene was over looked for most of his career when it came to those awards b/c he was highly productive year in and year out (the same case for Jackson last year). I regard Greene so highly b/c he was such a devastating pass rusher and good run defender. When I rank the top 3-4 OLB's I have him at #2 so that is why I feel he's an excellent HOF candidate.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
I have no clue how Greene was over looked for most of his career when it came to those awards b/c he was highly productive year in and year out (the same case for Jackson last year). I regard Greene so highly b/c he was such a devastating pass rusher and good run defender. When I rank the top 3-4 OLB's I have him at #2 so that is why I feel he's an excellent HOF candidate. >>
When you say highly productive you mean sacks I assume. Where else was he highly productive? Because if you look at the numbers, Greg Lloyd, his Steelers teammate, was more productive in every other category except sacks. Also, pretty narrow field when you say "top 3-4 OLBs"...Add in all the other LB positions and where does he stack up? If he's still that high, I think you may be mis-remembering how great he really was.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Deion Sanders, CB/KR/PR - 4
Marshall Faulk, RB - 1
Willie Roaf, T - 12
Cris Carter, WR - 13
Shannon Sharpe, TE - 17
Richard Dent, DE - 9
Dermontti Dawson, C - 18
Jerome Bettis, RB - 5
Curtis Martin, RB - 3
Andre Reed, WR - 16
Tim Brown, WR/KR - 20
Cortez Kennedy, DT - 19
Lester Hayes, CB - 6
Aeneas Williams, CB/S - 21
Charles Haley, DE/LB - 24
Terrell Davis, RB - 14
Roger Craig, RB - 10
Kevin Greene, LB/DE - 8
Chris Doleman, DE/LB - 25
Ray Guy, P - 2
Ed Sabol, Contributor - 11
Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner - 15
Edward DeBartolo, Jr., Owner - 22
Don Coryell, Coach - 23
George Young, Contributor - 7
Art Modell, Owner - Last, and DIAF.
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i>
<< <i>
I have no clue how Greene was over looked for most of his career when it came to those awards b/c he was highly productive year in and year out (the same case for Jackson last year). I regard Greene so highly b/c he was such a devastating pass rusher and good run defender. When I rank the top 3-4 OLB's I have him at #2 so that is why I feel he's an excellent HOF candidate. >>
When you say highly productive you mean sacks I assume. Where else was he highly productive? Because if you look at the numbers, Greg Lloyd, his Steelers teammate, was more productive in every other category except sacks. Also, pretty narrow field when you say "top 3-4 OLBs"...Add in all the other LB positions and where does he stack up? If he's still that high, I think you may be mis-remembering how great he really was.
Jason >>
I'm going by his ability to rush the passer and defend the run. IMO he was strong in both areas. I rank the LB positions separately b/c they all have different responsibilities and roles according to the schemes they are part of.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>I'm going by his ability to rush the passer and defend the run. IMO he was strong in both areas. I rank the LB positions separately b/c they all have different responsibilities and roles according to the schemes they are part of. >>
Fair enough. I think you are certainly in the minority when it comes to Greene being more deserving than all the other Defensive candidates (minus Deion), but that's ok. I don;t expect him to go into the HOF, or really even be close within the next 5-10. Derrick Brooks, Junior Seau, Zach Thomas..All will be adding to the list pretty soon, with Brooks and Seau most certainly leapfrogging Greene among defensive players.
I'd be more inclined to say that Greg Lloyd is BY FAR more overlooked than Greene. Greene has been getting fair looks, Lloyd who wan't as dominant for as long as Greene, but sports similar credentials doesn't even get mentioned in the top 25. Same for guys like Steve At-Water and LeRoy Butler who can't seem to get a sniff of the top 25 because of the position they played.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I'll rank them, based on what I saw with me own eyes. I'm subject to persuasion on some, others not so much. For example: Art Modell, DIAF.
Deion Sanders, CB/KR/PR - 4
Marshall Faulk, RB - 1
Willie Roaf, T - 12
Cris Carter, WR - 13
Shannon Sharpe, TE - 17
Richard Dent, DE - 9
Dermontti Dawson, C - 18
Jerome Bettis, RB - 5
Curtis Martin, RB - 3
Andre Reed, WR - 16
Tim Brown, WR/KR - 20
Cortez Kennedy, DT - 19
Lester Hayes, CB - 6
Aeneas Williams, CB/S - 21
Charles Haley, DE/LB - 24
Terrell Davis, RB - 14
Roger Craig, RB - 10
Kevin Greene, LB/DE - 8
Chris Doleman, DE/LB - 25
Ray Guy, P - 2
Ed Sabol, Contributor - 11
Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner - 15
Edward DeBartolo, Jr., Owner - 22
Don Coryell, Coach - 23
George Young, Contributor - 7
Art Modell, Owner - Last, and DIAF. >>
Descent order. Ray Guy at #2 is somewhat surprising. Even for those who believe Punters are deserving, I find it tough to understand what he did to be more deserving than say Cris Carter or Curtis Martin..Both with over 100 career TD's. I think the legend of Ray Guy exceeds the player Ray Guy. As great as he was, there are plenty of other Punters out there who have more punts inside the 20, better Net avg, better yards per punt avg., etc. And also plenty who were part of Super Bowl winning teams. Reggie Roby had better hang time too.
This is his last year of modern eligibility, along with Lester Hayes. MUCH rather see Hayes get the nod rather than Ray Guy.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm going by his ability to rush the passer and defend the run. IMO he was strong in both areas. I rank the LB positions separately b/c they all have different responsibilities and roles according to the schemes they are part of. >>
Fair enough. I think you are certainly in the minority when it comes to Greene being more deserving than all the other Defensive candidates (minus Deion), but that's ok. I don;t expect him to go into the HOF, or really even be close within the next 5-10. Derrick Brooks, Junior Seau, Zach Thomas..All will be adding to the list pretty soon, with Brooks and Seau most certainly leapfrogging Greene among defensive players.
I'd be more inclined to say that Greg Lloyd is BY FAR more overlooked than Greene. Greene has been getting fair looks, Lloyd who wan't as dominant for as long as Greene, but sports similar credentials doesn't even get mentioned in the top 25. Same for guys like Steve At-Water and LeRoy Butler who can't seem to get a sniff of the top 25 because of the position they played.
Jason >>
I believe his role as the Packers OLB coach may improve his chances of getting elected sooner rather than later b/c Matthews' play helps to keep him somewhat relevant.
I agree that Seau and Brooks will probably leap frog Greene. IMO Seau might be the most under rated LB of all time. What couldn't he do well?
Great point on Lloyd, he was dominant player but only for a brief period. Greene and Lloyd made a terrific combination since both were agressive playermakers.
As you mentioned before interior OL and S are neglected positions by the voters.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>I believe his role as the Packers OLB coach may improve his chances of getting elected sooner rather than later b/c Matthews' play helps to keep him somewhat relevant.
I agree that Seau and Brooks will probably leap frog Greene. IMO Seau might be the most under rated LB of all time. What couldn't he do well?
Great point on Lloyd, he was dominant player but only for a brief period. Greene and Lloyd made a terrific combination since both were agressive playermakers.
As you mentioned before interior OL and S are neglected positions by the voters. >>
Greene has to crack the top 15 and become a finalist first. Which to date has not happened.
Greene and Lloyd are interesting to compare:
Greene- Played in 228 games, 5 Pro Bowls, 2 All-Pros, , Avg .70 sacks per game, 2.93 tackles per game, 5 INT, 26 fumble recoveries
Lloyd- Played in 147 games, 5 Pro Bowls, 3 All-Pros, Avg .37 sacks per game, 4.81 tackles per game, 11 INTs, 16 fumble recoveries
We know Greene played much longer. We know he was better at sacking the QB, and Lloyd was better vs. the run. Lloyd was also better at playing the pass, and was equally adept at making plays. While Greene was the vocal wild man, Lloyd was more aggresive in his style of play, and was always the most feared hitter on the team. Lloyd was also considered the defensive leader during the years he played alongside Kevin Greene.
Greene is consistently been named in the top 25, Lloyd an afterthought. Greene was a media favorite because of his personality, Lloyd was not. So IMO, Lloyd is BY FAR the guy who has been unfairly overlooked. Had he not blown his knee out, but had instead hung on and played another 4-5 years he would be the HOF semifinalist over Greene. Pound for pound on each players best day Greg Lloyd is the guy I want everytime.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>I believe his role as the Packers OLB coach may improve his chances of getting elected sooner rather than later b/c Matthews' play helps to keep him somewhat relevant.
I agree that Seau and Brooks will probably leap frog Greene. IMO Seau might be the most under rated LB of all time. What couldn't he do well?
Great point on Lloyd, he was dominant player but only for a brief period. Greene and Lloyd made a terrific combination since both were agressive playermakers.
As you mentioned before interior OL and S are neglected positions by the voters. >>
Greene has to crack the top 15 and become a finalist first. Which to date has not happened.
Greene and Lloyd are interesting to compare:
Greene- Played in 228 games, 5 Pro Bowls, 2 All-Pros, , Avg .70 sacks per game, 2.93 tackles per game, 5 INT, 26 fumble recoveries
Lloyd- Played in 147 games, 5 Pro Bowls, 3 All-Pros, Avg .37 sacks per game, 4.81 tackles per game, 11 INTs, 16 fumble recoveries
We know Greene played much longer. We know he was better at sacking the QB, and Lloyd was better vs. the run. Lloyd was also better at playing the pass, and was equally adept at making plays. While Greene was the vocal wild man, Lloyd was more aggresive in his style of play, and was always the most feared hitter on the team. Lloyd was also considered the defensive leader during the years he played alongside Kevin Greene.
Greene is consistently been named in the top 25, Lloyd an afterthought. Greene was a media favorite because of his personality, Lloyd was not. So IMO, Lloyd is BY FAR the guy who has been unfairly overlooked. Had he not blown his knee out, but had instead hung on and played another 4-5 years he would be the HOF semifinalist over Greene. Pound for pound on each players best day Greg Lloyd is the guy I want everytime.
Jason >>
Lloyd was a better player and if his career wasnt cut short, he couldve went on to become one of the best linebackers in history. He was the most feared player in the NFL in the early-mid 90's. In 1995 he knocked out almost every starting QB he faced. And knocked out Emmit smith in super bowl 30 toward the end of the first half. People talk about James Harrrison, but he had nothing over Greg Lloyd. Heck of an athlete. Ran a 4.4 40. and had a black belt in martial arts.
<< <i>
Lloyd was a better player and if his career wasnt cut short, he couldve went on to become one of the best linebackers in history. He was the most feared player in the NFL in the early-mid 90's. In 1995 he knocked out almost every starting QB he faced. And knocked out Emmit smith in super bowl 30 toward the end of the first half. People talk about James Harrrison, but he had nothing over Greg Lloyd. Heck of an athlete. Ran a 4.4 40. and had a black belt in martial arts. >>
And this is why I have a hard time buying Kevin Greene as the #2 All-Time 3-4 OLB, or even a top 5 HOF candidate in this class. When I watched those Steeler films when they had Lloyd AND Greene playing on opposite ends, it was Lloyd who was feared. Greene made some plays and was great getting around the edge to pressure the QB..But it was Lloyd who made it count when he hit the QB, or RB or WR. To me, he was the best player on that defense (post Rod Woodson knee injury) by quite a large margin. Greene was the sidekick.
Not to mention, Lloyd has better credentials (5 Pro Bowls and THREE 1st team All-Pro selections, even though he played 5 fewer seasons).
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I believe his role as the Packers OLB coach may improve his chances of getting elected sooner rather than later b/c Matthews' play helps to keep him somewhat relevant.
I agree that Seau and Brooks will probably leap frog Greene. IMO Seau might be the most under rated LB of all time. What couldn't he do well?
Great point on Lloyd, he was dominant player but only for a brief period. Greene and Lloyd made a terrific combination since both were agressive playermakers.
As you mentioned before interior OL and S are neglected positions by the voters. >>
Greene has to crack the top 15 and become a finalist first. Which to date has not happened.
Greene and Lloyd are interesting to compare:
Greene- Played in 228 games, 5 Pro Bowls, 2 All-Pros, , Avg .70 sacks per game, 2.93 tackles per game, 5 INT, 26 fumble recoveries
Lloyd- Played in 147 games, 5 Pro Bowls, 3 All-Pros, Avg .37 sacks per game, 4.81 tackles per game, 11 INTs, 16 fumble recoveries
We know Greene played much longer. We know he was better at sacking the QB, and Lloyd was better vs. the run. Lloyd was also better at playing the pass, and was equally adept at making plays. While Greene was the vocal wild man, Lloyd was more aggresive in his style of play, and was always the most feared hitter on the team. Lloyd was also considered the defensive leader during the years he played alongside Kevin Greene.
Greene is consistently been named in the top 25, Lloyd an afterthought. Greene was a media favorite because of his personality, Lloyd was not. So IMO, Lloyd is BY FAR the guy who has been unfairly overlooked. Had he not blown his knee out, but had instead hung on and played another 4-5 years he would be the HOF semifinalist over Greene. Pound for pound on each players best day Greg Lloyd is the guy I want everytime.
Jason >>
Lloyd was a better player and if his career wasnt cut short, he couldve went on to become one of the best linebackers in history. He was the most feared player in the NFL in the early-mid 90's. In 1995 he knocked out almost every starting QB he faced. And knocked out Emmit smith in super bowl 30 toward the end of the first half. People talk about James Harrrison, but he had nothing over Greg Lloyd. Heck of an athlete. Ran a 4.4 40. and had a black belt in martial arts. >>
Smith sprained his knee but returned in the second half to score 2 TD's. He wasn't as effective in the 2nd half b/c of the knee but still got the job done when the Cowboys needed him.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Lloyd was a better player and if his career wasnt cut short, he couldve went on to become one of the best linebackers in history. He was the most feared player in the NFL in the early-mid 90's. In 1995 he knocked out almost every starting QB he faced. And knocked out Emmit smith in super bowl 30 toward the end of the first half. People talk about James Harrrison, but he had nothing over Greg Lloyd. Heck of an athlete. Ran a 4.4 40. and had a black belt in martial arts. >>
And this is why I have a hard time buying Kevin Greene as the #2 All-Time 3-4 OLB, or even a top 5 HOF candidate in this class. When I watched those Steeler films when they had Lloyd AND Greene playing on opposite ends, it was Lloyd who was feared. Greene made some plays and was great getting around the edge to pressure the QB..But it was Lloyd who made it count when he hit the QB, or RB or WR. To me, he was the best player on that defense (post Rod Woodson knee injury) by quite a large margin. Greene was the sidekick.
Not to mention, Lloyd has better credentials (5 Pro Bowls and THREE 1st team All-Pro selections, even though he played 5 fewer seasons).
Jason >>
Lloyd was better in coverage but both played the run very well. The pass rush is where Greene separated himself from Lloyd and pretty much every other 3-4 OLB besides Taylor.
Lloyd was a big media favorite as well. Fans loved his attitude and aggression on the field. "Avoid Lloyd"
IMO Greene was never anyone's sidekick. In fact his production stayed the same no matter what team he was on or who he played with.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
Lloyd was better in coverage but both played the run very well. The pass rush is where Greene separated himself from Lloyd and pretty much every other 3-4 OLB besides Taylor.
Lloyd was a big media favorite as well. Fans loved his attitude and aggression on the field. "Avoid Lloyd"
IMO Greene was never anyone's sidekick. In fact his production stayed the same no matter what team he was on or who he played with. >>
Lloyd was a big media favorite? Yikes....I think we have officially reached the end of this debate. lol
Especially if we are even speaking Greene and Lawrence Taylor in the same paragraph. That's just silly.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Lloyd was better in coverage but both played the run very well. The pass rush is where Greene separated himself from Lloyd and pretty much every other 3-4 OLB besides Taylor.
Lloyd was a big media favorite as well. Fans loved his attitude and aggression on the field. "Avoid Lloyd"
IMO Greene was never anyone's sidekick. In fact his production stayed the same no matter what team he was on or who he played with. >>
Lloyd was a big media favorite? Yikes....I think we have officially reached the end of this debate. lol
Especially if we are even speaking Greene and Lawrence Taylor in the same paragraph. That's just silly.
Jason >>
Lloyd received a ton of coverage as did the rest of the Steelers mid 90's defense (Lake, Woodson, Greene, Kirkland, Brown). The media really seemed to push Lloyd and his nasty on field disposition.
I'm sorry but Greene was just as successful as a pass rusher and run defender as LT.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I believe his role as the Packers OLB coach may improve his chances of getting elected sooner rather than later b/c Matthews' play helps to keep him somewhat relevant.
I agree that Seau and Brooks will probably leap frog Greene. IMO Seau might be the most under rated LB of all time. What couldn't he do well?
Great point on Lloyd, he was dominant player but only for a brief period. Greene and Lloyd made a terrific combination since both were agressive playermakers.
As you mentioned before interior OL and S are neglected positions by the voters. >>
Greene has to crack the top 15 and become a finalist first. Which to date has not happened.
Greene and Lloyd are interesting to compare:
Greene- Played in 228 games, 5 Pro Bowls, 2 All-Pros, , Avg .70 sacks per game, 2.93 tackles per game, 5 INT, 26 fumble recoveries
Lloyd- Played in 147 games, 5 Pro Bowls, 3 All-Pros, Avg .37 sacks per game, 4.81 tackles per game, 11 INTs, 16 fumble recoveries
We know Greene played much longer. We know he was better at sacking the QB, and Lloyd was better vs. the run. Lloyd was also better at playing the pass, and was equally adept at making plays. While Greene was the vocal wild man, Lloyd was more aggresive in his style of play, and was always the most feared hitter on the team. Lloyd was also considered the defensive leader during the years he played alongside Kevin Greene.
Greene is consistently been named in the top 25, Lloyd an afterthought. Greene was a media favorite because of his personality, Lloyd was not. So IMO, Lloyd is BY FAR the guy who has been unfairly overlooked. Had he not blown his knee out, but had instead hung on and played another 4-5 years he would be the HOF semifinalist over Greene. Pound for pound on each players best day Greg Lloyd is the guy I want everytime.
Jason >>
Lloyd was a better player and if his career wasnt cut short, he couldve went on to become one of the best linebackers in history. He was the most feared player in the NFL in the early-mid 90's. In 1995 he knocked out almost every starting QB he faced. And knocked out Emmit smith in super bowl 30 toward the end of the first half. People talk about James Harrrison, but he had nothing over Greg Lloyd. Heck of an athlete. Ran a 4.4 40. and had a black belt in martial arts. >>
Smith sprained his knee but returned in the second half to score 2 TD's. He wasn't as effective in the 2nd half b/c of the knee but still got the job done when the Cowboys needed him. >>
It was Smiths worst super bowl performance. The steelers outrushed the cowboys 103 to 56 yds(2.2 average yds a rush) Smith scored on 2 short runs after stupid steeler mistakes. Smith had 18 carries for 49 yrds.
<< <i>
I'm sorry but Greene was just as successful as a pass rusher and run defender as LT. >>
So let me get this straight. The experts who voted for the top 100 players of all-time,( Top 100 List )voted LT #3, and the BEST defensive player in NFL history, and left Kevin Greene off the list entirely based on Taylor's ability in pass coverage?
I'm beginning to wonder if you even watch football or you just read stat sheets. Your statement above absolutely blows my mind. I don't even know how to debate this one. It's like saying Vinny Testaverde was better than Joe Montana because he had more passing yards. It's insanity. It's not always about the stats. You have to watch the guys play and then know what you are seeing when you watch it. Short of being able to do that, please just take the experts words for it. lolol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
I'm sorry but Greene was just as successful as a pass rusher and run defender as LT. >>
So let me get this straight. The experts who voted for the top 100 players of all-time,( Top 100 List )voted LT #3, and the BEST defensive player in NFL history, and left Kevin Greene off the list entirely based on Taylor's ability in pass coverage?
I'm beginning to wonder if you even watch football or you just read stat sheets. Your statement above absolutely blows my mind. I don't even know how to debate this one. It's like saying Vinny Testaverde was better than Joe Montana because he had more passing yards. It's insanity. It's not always about the stats. You have to watch the guys play and then know what you are seeing when you watch it. Short of being able to do that, please just take the experts words for it. lolol
Jason >>
Sorry you disagree but I saw them both play and I found Greene to be nearly on LT's level as a pass rusher and run defender. LT is iconic b/c of the speed he brought to the position and the way he could rush the passer. LT transformed the OLB position and made a name for himself in doing do. Playing in New York didn't hurt either.lol
IMO I am pretty knowledgable about the game and feel comfortable in the thoughts I have expressed. I played football from grade school through college so I do have a firm grasp on the fundamentals of the game and know what I am looking at when I watch a game. I am not a lemming and like to form my own opinions on players and the game in general.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Enshrinement Class of 2011 finalists
01/09/2011
Five first-year eligible players – Jerome Bettis, Marshall Faulk, Curtis Martin, Deion Sanders, and Willie Roaf – are among the 15 modern-era finalists who will be considered for election to the Pro Football Hall of Fame when the Hall’s Selection Committee meets in North Texas on Saturday, Feb. 5, 2011.
Joining the five first-year eligible players, are nine other modern-era players and a contributor. The 15 modern-era finalists, along with the two senior nominees announced in August 2010 (former Washington Redskins linebacker Chris Hanburger and former Los Angeles Rams linebacker Les Richter) will be the only candidates considered for Hall of Fame election when the 44-member Selection Committee meets. To be elected, a finalist must receive a minimum positive vote of 80 percent.
Also, for the second consecutive year, the Pro Football Hall of Fame has teamed up with Van Heusen and JCPenney to ask fans to voice their choice for whom they think should be included in the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s Class of 2011 at www.fanschoice.com.
The Pro Football Hall of Fame Selection Committee’s 17 finalists (15 modern-era and two senior nominees*) with their positions, teams, and years active follow:
Jerome Bettis
Tim Brown
Cris Carter
Dermontti Dawson
Richard Dent
Chris Doleman
Marshall Faulk
Charles Haley
*Chris Hanburger
Cortez Kennedy
Curtis Martin
Andre Reed
*Les Richter
Willie Roaf
Ed Sabol
Deion Sanders
Shannon Sharpe
Steve
<< <i>Well, Deion Sanders and Marshall Faulk should be 100% no question slam dunks on that list. I think Roaf should in too, along with Carter, Bettis, Hanburger, Sharpe, and Dawson. Heck, Dent should be in too, but 7 is the limit. I say let's do 7 and clear out some of these guys that should have gone in already. >>
the problem with the 7 is 5 are guys that should be in, and 2 iffy guys will get a shot (Senior committee guys). Guys like Floyd Little and that nutjob Tommy MacDonald should not be in, but since they get more romanticized with time they are.
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Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Martin did more lesser teams than Bettis. Martin was always an underappreciated back great imho.
He played great in a number of systems for numerous teams.
1 or 2 others may get in to free up the list a little for future votes.
I think this will be a big class.
Richard Dent
Marshall Faulk
Chris Hanburger
Willie Roaf
Deion Sanders
Shannon Sharpe
Nick
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Marshall Faulk
Willie Roaf
Ed Sabol
Cris Carter
Chris Hanburger
Deion Sanders
Bettis, Reed and Martin will have to wait...
<< <i>Going with:
Marshall Faulk
Willie Roaf
Ed Sabol
Cris Carter
Chris Hanburger
Deion Sanders
Bettis, Reed and Martin will have to wait... >>
this list makes the most sense to me.
<< <i>the problem with the 7 is 5 are guys that should be in, and 2 iffy guys will get a shot (Senior committee guys). Guys like Floyd Little and that nutjob Tommy MacDonald should not be in, but since they get more romanticized with time they are. >>
Chris Hanburger was a nine time Pro Bowler and a four time first team All-Pro. He's not "iffy."
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Rgs,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i> There needs to be a change in the rules of admission and they should have a special one per year "contributor" category. It's ridiculous that people have to choose between Deion Sanders and Ed Sabol. Both are just as deserving as one another. >>
That's a great idea. It would be a good way to reconginze important figues who fall outside the rubrics of player, coach or administrator. Someone like Paul Zimmerman would also be a good candidate.
Cris Carter
Marshall Faulk
Chris Hanburger
Willie Roaf
Deion Sanders
Dermontti Dawson
Ed Sabol
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Cris Carter
Dermontti Dawson
Marshall Faulk
*Chris Hanburger
*Les Richter
Ed Sabol
Deion Sanders
Rgs,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg