Fake seated dollar in fake pcgs holder examined at Santa Clara.

truthteller

I had a collector show me a recently purchased 1844 PCGS XF40 Seated Dollar. The coin was counterfeit and the holder was fake. Since many counterfeit holders are showing up in the SF Bay Area, I decided to examine it carefully.


Points of notice.

1) The fake PCGS holder is identical in size and dimensions to a true PCGS holder. I examined the fake side by side with a real holder and found the fake stackable and of correct proportions.

2) When examined in ambient light, the fake holder plastic did not display the light blue tint which is standard for true PCGS plastic. In fact, the fake had no tint whatsoever. This is a easy and reliable test for determining the fake holder.

3) The fake holder had "too much frost" in the plastic and was easily distinguishable from a true holder, when held side by side.

4) The sonic seals of both fake and true holders matched well and cannot be a distinguishing factor.

5) The coin itself appeared crude and would be easily declared fake by anyone with coin collector knowledge.

6) The coin and holder were underweight for a seated dollar, which was evident by holding the fake holdered coin in hand. This would not be a good differentiating factor for smaller denominations, but would be so for gold or platinum coins.

7) The label appeared to be of good color and font, but was lacking the "speckled" white mix found on current PCGS labels. The reverse hologram was identical to a true PCGS holder.


The collector purchased the coin unwittingly from an associate, not a fly by night dealer or ebay. These coins have now appear to be well established in the second tier US coin collecting community. I strongly suggest anyone buying any TPG coin to bring a real holdered coin to compare when at a coin show or shop.



TRUTH

MsMorrisine

bought as a fake, or bought as real?

Moldnut

"The collector purchased the coin unwittingly from an associate, not a fly by night dealer or ebay".


So your saying it even fooled the dealer that sold it?

Coinosaurus

So when the ANA start offering classes in counterfeit slab detection?

notwilight

<< <i>"The collector purchased the coin unwittingly from an associate, not a fly by night dealer or ebay".


So your saying it even fooled the dealer that sold it? >>



Yes, and it wasn't one of those low class ebay dealers either.

braddick

Although quite young, I do recall when clad coinage began to circulate in early 1965. At first a clad quarter was such a novelty is was easy to want to trade a silver one for the clad. Now of course looking back we see how "bad money drives out the good".

I see this potential with these fake PCGS slabs. They're a novelty right now- burning at random a few collectors.

Please, I sincerely hope these counterfeit slabs don't drive out the good and damage our hobby for many years to come.

Moldnut

One thing I can tell you for sure is that new holders will not solve this problem. Being in the mold making trade, making an exact copy of a PCGS or any holder is quite easy. You could spend $500,000 to get new tooling only to have it copied in six months would be a financial disaster. Its going to come down to the coin in the holder itself. I think Mr.Willis even said, "know your coins and your seller".
This is going to be a tough battle!

robkool

Thanks for the added info...I guess there is more to look for in those fake holders.

sinin1

maybe PCGS wants to have plenty of regrade business


as current holders in the market are not making them any cash flow now


just grading sevices as being performed


if you really need to know as a collector-> re-submit


(although I would not like to be the CSR calling people to tell them their $10K coin in PCGS slab is not authentic)

speety

The 1844 would be one of the hardest dates for them to counterfeit. The coin has a DDO with "four stripes" in the shield, and the reverse was crudely done with die scratches all around the eagle (sometimes called the "armpit hair" eagle).

You can't get any pics of the coin can you? I'd like to see how good or bad the fake really was.

amiller

Would it be a conflict of interest for a TPG to offer a proxy service for buying and selling? A seller submits the certified coin and the buyer submits payment plus fees to the TPG. The TPG then verifies the holder is legit and has not been tampered with, then sends the payment (less fees) to the seller and the coin to the buyer. Obviously not a solution for lower value items, but definitely worth the overhead for higher priced items. This could be a good revenue stream with little up front cost for the TPG, vs a one time up front charge for grading.

Walkerguy21D

Good effort on your part to examine it this closely, and to post your findings for the forum - thank you for taking the time to do this!

johnny9434

interesting. i guess if your not careful it can happen at any show usa

Chuckno8

Since good counterfeiters with modern equipment can fake almost any holders. Problem will be for low end coins. Those valued at $100 or less. Mass producing lowend coins can make as much money as a one off of high end coin. I have been on many forums and biggest problem is lack of photos.

asheland

I've seen these counterfeit holders and his points are correct, however the newest PCGS slabs don't have that bluish tint in the plastic anymore. They are crystal clear so keep that in mind.

Smudge

Counterfeit slabs are scarier than counterfeit coins.

291fifth

I wonder how many of these fake holders can be found in flea market stalls?

Timbuk3

Interesting, thank you for the "heads-up" !!!

Namvet69

Did the serial # and barcode provide any clues? Peace Roy

COINS MAKE CENTS

The only way to beat this is to learn your coins that you want to buy and study them before you purchase the coin and not to depend on the plastic to do all the work for you

ricko

Resurrected post from 2010... but still pertinent.... Be careful out there....Cheers, RickO

OriginalDan

Wow, people actually used to attend the Santa Clara show?