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Gloom & Doom SHTF Question - as it relates to Gold & Silver & The US Dollar

GRANDAMGRANDAM Posts: 8,518 ✭✭✭✭✭
In such a situation,,, which I firmly believe is coming,,, the dollar falls and eventually becomes worthless. Gold & Silver skyrockets.

My question is what happens to the debt you have on paper committed to in Dollars. Say mostly the mortage balance due on your home? If you owe $50,000 I am assuming it stays at $50,000 as long as you have a fixed rate and pay on time. I guess I am asking can THEY inflate your debt as related to the falling value of the dollar on which this debt is based? So if the dollar falls by 50% can they rewrite your loan to $75,000 from the original $50,000?

What has happened in the past such as in 1994 Mexico when the Peso fell over 50%? Did paper debt on the books remain the same or did the GOVT somehow come up with a reason or plan to adjust it upward and stick it to the Joe on the street?

Thanks, GrandAm image
GrandAm :)

Comments

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,143 ✭✭✭✭✭
    First you say the dollar would be "worthless", then you say it would drop 50%. Big difference. The question you pose depends on which you "firmly" believe will happen.

    If the dollar is "worthless", then I wouldnt worry about any debt I might have, unless that debt is held by a neighbor with a gun.
    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • GRANDAMGRANDAM Posts: 8,518 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well dropping by 50% would make it worth alot less. I think my question is clear enough.
    GrandAm :)

  • Your mortgage terms are set in concrete. If you have a fixed rate loan, the principal balance will not change regardless of the dollar valuation. Essentially, the Feds' have to create inflation in order to weaken the dollar that will enable us all to climb out of the recession. Your $1000 mtge payment will efffectively be cut in half within 10 yrs because of inflation. That and other strategies will allow us to lighten the personal debt load.
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    can they rewrite your loan to $75,000 from the original $50,000?

    I suspect that "they" would like to value their own liabilities as worthless and the worthless assets on their books as full value (which FASB already allowed them to do).

    That being the case, it would put them in a very untenable position to try and have it both ways. Of course, "they" have already shown quite clearly that they can do just about anything that they want to do.

    They've already destroyed bankruptcy law with GM & Chrysler. There is no reason that they won't try to destroy contract law just the same way.

    Excuse me for being such a downer, but the politicians are in a bind no matter who is in control and no matter their best intentions. It's not going to be pretty regardless of who is in power.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • This is why a hyperinflationary period might be good. My salary will come close to keeping pace, yet my mortgage is a fixed amount. So if we get 6 years of say 10% inflation, with at least a 7%/yr raise, then lets look at the following numbers:


    Guy making $75,000 in the yr before the 6 yr hyperinflationary period will be making $112,000 at end of year 6.

    Lets say his mortgage is $1500/month. That represents about 24% of his monthly pay in that year before runaway inflation.

    By year 6, his mortgage is still $1500, but now that represents just 16% of his monthly income.


    In this example, we now see that hyperinflation is probably a GOOD thing for those who have just bought homes and are upside down on them right now. On the flipside, hyperinflation is simply disasterous for anyone close to retirement or actually in retirement on a fixed income!
  • GRANDAMGRANDAM Posts: 8,518 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, I didn't think they could change what was written on your note but was curious as to what has happened in other countries in the past.

    Thanks for the input so far,,, GrandAm image
    GrandAm :)
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,764 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You would still pay your mortgage if the dollar went to zero. The gov't
    would just bail the mortgage holders out, again. Fannie and Freddie
    and the Banks. You owe the debt incurred by your gov't and would just
    pay for it in taxes, etc.

    bob
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,143 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Well dropping by 50% would make it worth alot less. I think my question is clear enough. >>



    Your question is clear, but supporting assumptions are not.

    Being worth less in not the same as being worthless. I will stand by my response to "worthless", and as to "worth less", then if you owe the bank $100,000 then you owe the bank $100,000, not $50,000 or $200,000. The bank doesnt care about the value of the dollar vs a basket of other currencies, a bushel or corn, or an ounce of gold.



    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • calleochocalleocho Posts: 1,569 ✭✭
    Gecko

    How about a scenario where we have low growth ( high unemployment, low wages) and raising costs ( food, gas ,healthcare)

    Given the way things look right now...this its not all that unlikely.

    The "savings" of inflation might be offset by increasing property taxes and higher insurance/maintance fees down the read.

    Its a rat race no doubt







    "Women should be obscene and not heard. "
    Groucho Marx
  • bumanchubumanchu Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭

    Unless you have wage inflation or specific assett (that you own) inflation you have no advantage in my book.
    And I ain't lying this time.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,140 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Don't forget that high inflation wipes out savings and hurt people on fixed incomes.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • GRANDAMGRANDAM Posts: 8,518 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In reading my OP and all the answers it becomes clear to me that I haven't asked the question in such a way as to get the the part answered that I was really seaking so I will try again.

    Worse case SHTF scenario, the dollar colaspes. It takes a wheel barrel ful of them to buy a loaf of bread. Since the dollar is gone we need a new currency, The Ameros Dollar image so now what happens. How is old debt in dollars converted to new debt in Ameros Dollars???

    This is my question, will the converted dollar to Amero Dollars bear any relationship to the former value or will we all get shafted?

    I guess nobody will be able to really answer this question but that is why I wanted to know what has happened in the past in countries where it suddenly took a wheel barrel full of curency to buy a loaf of bread. What happened afterward with old debt?

    GrandAm image
    GrandAm :)
  • BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,492 ✭✭✭✭✭
    if the real SHTF, financial institutions are no more and debt as we now know it will cease to exist. Prepare for that with gold, silver, seeds, land, fuel, food, guns, parts, ammo, etc.
  • Wolf359Wolf359 Posts: 7,657 ✭✭✭


    << <i>This is why a hyperinflationary period might be good. My salary will come close to keeping pace, yet my mortgage is a fixed amount. >>



    Ahhh...Bernanke logic. When has that man ever been right on anything? I'll bet he won't even be able to start hyperinflation, the system collapses first.

  • If you study WW II Germany you will find your answer....total collapse of their currency. Your survial rate will be in question....your needs will be food and water....and your means will be what ever you have of value, gold, diamonds and watches.....if you are to survive.
  • mhammermanmhammerman Posts: 3,769 ✭✭✭
    Yep, I think the mortgage situation will be a major benefit of a weaker dollar for those that kept their homes and paid their mortgage like they were supposed to. Those that jumped on the refi at 4.4% are the major receipients of goodness via the weaker dollar, inflation, higher regulation of mortages in the future. If we lose the home mortgage interest tax credit, we'll get it back through inflation or dollar adjustments...it's a win for the responsible home buyers so, seemingly, there is justice.

    Gold and silver are what they always have been, precious and priced accordingly. For the USD enconomy, if the dollar is weaker and inflation higher, it stands to reason that gold and silver will cost more USD to get the same amount in the future. Those that have bought in already will benefit if they can just keep their greasy fingers offa da trigga. It's a win.

    Those that can, will. Those that can't will sink lower in the pecking order and standard of living. SHTF is relative, there's people burning stuff in the streets like Watts and then there's pillaging ala Katrina, then there's just a little adjustment to your standard of living. Let's hope whatever SHTF we get will be the latter.



  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    << This is why a hyperinflationary period might be good. My salary will come close to keeping pace, yet my mortgage is a fixed amount. >>

    You only think your salary will come close to keeping pace. In a hyperinflation scenario, the first ones who get the money in their hands benefit, while the last ones who get money in their hands get hurt the most. The government benefits immediately, while it's anybody's guess how long it takes before your bosses decide when and how much of a COLA you would get (or how often). In 1923 Germany, the money deteriorated quickly, almost as if the issuer was writing bad checks. And actually, they were.

    At some point during a hyperinflation people stop going to work because their pay isn't worth it, and they have more pressing things at home. Hence, the fear of a widespread breakdown of society.

    Hyperinflation is the absolute best justification for keeping your assets in gold & silver.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • Hyperinflation, is for those in control....workers like you and me are the one's who are left out to hang dry....Corporations as we once new them are no longer....cost of materials to manufacture are untouchable....farmers no longer farm...food is in short supply....it is something you do not want to experience.
  • secondrepublicsecondrepublic Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Worse case SHTF scenario, the dollar colaspes. It takes a wheel barrel ful of them to buy a loaf of bread. Since the dollar is gone we need a new currency, The Ameros Dollar image so now what happens. How is old debt in dollars converted to new debt in Ameros Dollars??? >>



    You don't wait for them to "convert" anything. You take your wheelbarrel full of money and pay off your mortgage RIGHT AWAY!
    "Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
  • Just got a letter from the Alabama Dept. of Agriculture...There is someone suing the State of Alabama for wrongful tax assesments in 3 counties...they said that it is possible that my taxes on my farm could go up as much as 1000%...This farm has been in my family for almost 150 years...if it goes up 1000% there is no way I can afford to pay the taxes or keep it...and there will be no one to buy it for the taxes alone!!!
    Tell me, what do I do? If this starts it will spread across the country...you won't own anything!
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ...if it goes up 1000% there is no way I can afford to pay the taxes or keep it...and there will be no one to buy it for the taxes alone!!!

    The first thing I would do is to pay a visit to my congressman, in person and to demand to know what is going on.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.


  • << <i>This is why a hyperinflationary period might be good. My salary will come close to keeping pace, yet my mortgage is a fixed amount. So if we get 6 years of say 10% inflation, with at least a 7%/yr raise, then lets look at the following numbers:



    In this example, we now see that hyperinflation is probably a GOOD thing for those who have just bought homes and are upside down on them right now. On the flipside, hyperinflation is simply disasterous for anyone close to retirement or actually in retirement on a fixed income! >>



    Hyperinflation would be disastrous for everyone, mortgage or no mortgage. The benefit of being able to pay your mortgage would be far off set by what you would have to pay for everything else, the loss of any paper assets, and the instability in government(hhmmmm).
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,156 ✭✭✭✭✭
    An interesting, and disturbing, article from a major German magazine:

    der spiegel
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.


  • << <i>

    << <i>This is why a hyperinflationary period might be good. My salary will come close to keeping pace, yet my mortgage is a fixed amount. So if we get 6 years of say 10% inflation, with at least a 7%/yr raise, then lets look at the following numbers:



    In this example, we now see that hyperinflation is probably a GOOD thing for those who have just bought homes and are upside down on them right now. On the flipside, hyperinflation is simply disasterous for anyone close to retirement or actually in retirement on a fixed income! >>



    Hyperinflation would be disastrous for everyone, mortgage or no mortgage. The benefit of being able to pay your mortgage would be far off set by what you would have to pay for everything else, the loss of any paper assets, and the instability in government(hhmmmm). >>






    Why wouldnt paper assets such as stocks increase with hyperinflation? If the XYZ company sells food products, and today's strike price was $50/share, then why do you feel the share price would not rise along with inflation as the company takes in more cash because inflation caused a rise in the food products it sells?

    My point is that so long as my wages came close to keeping pace with 6-10 years of hyperinflation, I would be in a great spot. My house (bought in 2006) would soon be worth more money than what is owed on it once again. The cost of my mortgage would be lower in relation to my income than it is now. And my diligence in stockpiling precious metals would be handsomely rewarded. These are "disasterous" things???


  • << <i>Hyperinflation, is for those in control....workers like you and me are the one's who are left out to hang dry....Corporations as we once new them are no longer....cost of materials to manufacture are untouchable....farmers no longer farm...food is in short supply....it is something you do not want to experience. >>




    Why would farmers stop growing food? A bushel of corn will sell for more money than ever if hyperinflation does occur.


    Corn = $xxx today

    Corn = $x,xxx in hyperinflation.

    And you stop growing corn again why???
  • dbcoindbcoin Posts: 2,200 ✭✭
    In Weimar Germany in the 1920's, things got so bad that people with life insurance policies did not bother to cash them in for deceased relatives because the cost of a postage stamp was MORE than the value of the life insurance policy after the hyperinflation kicked in.

    People also used wheel barrows to lug around money. When they went to the baker to buy a loaf of bread, he would throw the money into the fire heating the oven because it was cheaper to burn money then buy firewood.

    I suggest you read up on the Weimar hyperinflationary period
  • When your currency is worthless...your society will fail....your family will go hungry...There will be no stock market....you could only wish!
    Only food you will have is by your own hand, if your lucky to have any seeds....then you will need big guns to keep the starving off your back!

    Gecko, when your money is worthless...you do not have money to buy anything not even a kernal! Sad picture isn't it!
  • Anyone hoping of or thinking that hyperinflation is anyones friend is very misguided....It happened to Germany and could be a good lession for those who would like to find out about it...but if you would rather not look at a sad part of world history that is ok too! That is why you should learn to save and protect yourself and your family...for you never now what the future holds....and you think it could never happen in this country, you again are misguided and had better rethink about what the word Hyperinflation really means.


  • << <i>When your currency is worthless...your society will fail....your family will go hungry...There will be no stock market....you could only wish!
    Only food you will have is by your own hand, if your lucky to have any seeds....then you will need big guns to keep the starving off your back!

    Gecko, when your money is worthless...you do not have money to buy anything not even a kernal! Sad picture isn't it! >>





    Where did I say that our money being worthless was a good thing? Go back and reread my premise. Its based on a 10%/year, 6-10 year inflationary period.
  • Ok, Gecko, I did not read the last part...some how I missed it.....but who is to say you will keep your job! I hope for all our sakes you do...I would never want to be in hyperflationary scenerio.
  • You can't eat gold or silver either...nor will diamonds be a girls best friend....during WWII many women wearing diamonds and fur coats were often seen rumaging in garbage cans for something to eat.
  • If you are afraid of a worthless dollar...then gold and silver and diamonds will be easy to transition to a currency with value...but when it comes down to it...food, water and shelter are your needs.
  • meluaufeetmeluaufeet Posts: 764 ✭✭✭


    << <i>This farm has been in my family for almost 150 years...if it goes up 1000% there is no way I can afford to pay the taxes or keep it... >>




    Tax Details 2010
    Period Description
    2010-1 Beginning Tax 28,XXX.XX
    2010-2 Beginning Tax 28,XXX.XX
    Total: 56,XXX.XX


    This was caused largely not by what our family did, but what happened around us... and I remember when nobody even wanted to live down here.



  • << <i>An interesting, and disturbing, article from a major German magazine:

    der spiegel >>




    Excellent article, I think they have Glenn Beck pegged correctly, the problem isn't Mexicans and homosexuals.
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,660 ✭✭✭✭✭
    so much for paying off the mortgage with the proceeds from selling a few ounces of gold

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 10,227 ✭✭✭✭✭



    As all these old threads you bumped showed predicting how things will work out is tough for most of us. There were a few posters that look pretty wise in some of these threads though so that's encouraging.


    Interesting to see the number of posters that are no longer with us


    This forum is pretty laid back compared to what you see over in the US coin forum. I was surprised at some of the things that were posted this weekend when I wandered over and clicked a few threads.

    You really have to exert yourself to get bammed on the PM forum but some still manage to pull it off image
  • DeepCoinDeepCoin Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭
    Interestingly, most of the early part of the thread has worries about hyper inflation and what the central bankers are currently afraid of is deflation. Much different scenarios.

    I wonder what ever happened about the tax situation and how it was resolved.
    Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interestingly, most of the early part of the thread has worries about hyper inflation and what the central bankers are currently afraid of is deflation. Much different scenarios.

    Nothing has been solved, or resolved. The problem with a serious deflation is that the only cure is a serious inflation. The problem with a serious inflation is that it undermines confidence in the currency. When that happens, hyperinflation is a real possibility.

    The problems haven't gone away and nothing has been fixed.

    Precious metals may jump all over the place in nominal dollar terms as we go through this process, but at the very least - they are real, physical and verifiable. If the banks start restricting money or if liquidity freezes up, which I believe to be real possibilities (like in China at this moment), the confidence level will erode.

    Most of our money is electronic now. We are very close to a totally-state-controlled situation.

    Be careful how you manage your finances, especially now.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • DeepCoinDeepCoin Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭
    I was referring to the tax situation with regard to the farm or land mentioned earlier in this tread a couple of years ago. I would disagree about your comment with regard to deflation. We did not experience hyperinflation when we came out of the depression in the 30s. The central bank had a much different approach then.

    The key in my mind is that the only place you can presently park your money is in US Equities. The S&P 500 companies are doing well with regard to both sales and profits. Europe is struggling as are the third world countries. The US Equity markets are the only place with a decent return at present.
    Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,825 ✭✭✭✭✭
    unless real estate is put to use as a personal residence, income reducing rental property or cultivated farmland, the tax liabilities often make it not the investment it appeared to be.

    "Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,825 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>so much for paying off the mortgage with the proceeds from selling a few ounces of gold >>


    Worked just fine for me.

    "Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,660 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, that's not very gloomy or doomy at all! Glad to hear it, Way to go, Socrates! image

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

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