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ERROR SPECIALISTS-TAKE A LOOK- This is 4 You, Kranky!

golddustingolddustin Posts: 838 ✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
Never underestimate what your mother-in-law can do for you! She left this Roosie with my wife the other day, wanting to know if it was worth anything. Since it came from my father in law (evidently as payment in some bar room bet, or debt), she naturally had doubts that it was authentic.
But I looked it over, and it sure looks like the real deal to me. As fortune would have it, the PAN show was this w/e, and I took it to several dealers, Kranky being the first, to gather some opinions. Every dealer that looked at it confirmed that it is 'as struck', but I got several different opinions as to how or what happened to have a coin end up like this one.
First - the blank half is convex on the obverse, and concave on the reverse. Secondly, there are plenty of indications of die clashing, especially on the obverse, where some letters can be seen in front of the forehead and along the hairline. The clashing on the reverse is less revealing, but evident. BTW - it looks to be pretty close to a full belt line, as well.

I will let the error specialists try to figure out just what sequence of events occured to produce this 'half-dime' image


image


image

I will try to get some pics with better details - maybe a flash would show more.....

Thanks,
Chuck
Don't you know that it's worth
every treasure on Earth
to be young at heart?
And as rich as you are,
it's much better by far,
to be young at heart!

Comments

  • JapanJohnJapanJohn Posts: 2,030 ✭
    broken die?????
    Coin Photos

    Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.
  • TheRegulatorTheRegulator Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭


    << <i>broken die????? >>


    Looks like it to me. Massive cud and very cool. image
    The Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. -Thomas Jefferson
  • krankykranky Posts: 8,709 ✭✭✭
    golddustin, it was nice to see you at the show yesterday and for letting me have a look at this coin (and the pattern as well). This is an interesting coin. The rim is fully intact. The letter in front of the forehead appears to be an "E", and although there is definite die clashing evident, I think the "E" is too close to the forehead to be in the right place to be clashed from the reverse from EPU (If it had been clashed from dies in proper alignment, the top left corner of the "E" would touch the bottom left leg of the "R" in LIBERTY. I'm not clear how a broken die would cause the blank area to be concave on the reverse and convex on the obverse.

    I am looking forward to hearing an explanation from one of the resident error experts.

    New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.

  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭
    Wow!!! That's a REALLY cool cud and the biggest I've ever seen! Nice!!! The only thing that could have made this cooler was if it still had the date. Oh well, still an amazing coin and a sweet find!




    -Paul
    NGC 2.1 Census! PM me yours!
  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭


    << <i>golddustin, it was nice to see you at the show yesterday and for letting me have a look at this coin (and the pattern as well). This is an interesting coin. The rim is fully intact. The letter in front of the forehead appears to be an "E", and although there is definite die clashing evident, I think the "E" is too close to the forehead to be in the right place to be clashed from the reverse from EPU (If it had been clashed from dies in proper alignment, the top left corner of the "E" would touch the bottom left leg of the "R" in LIBERTY. I'm not clear how a broken die would cause the blank area to be concave on the reverse and convex on the obverse.

    I am looking forward to hearing an explanation from one of the resident error experts. >>





    It was clearly the top die that broke. Thus the metal had completely free space to flow into up above where the obverse should have been, leaving a concave part on the reverse.





    -Paul
    NGC 2.1 Census! PM me yours!
  • goodmoney4badmoneygoodmoney4badmoney Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
    WOW a nice HUGE CUD! Worth quite a bit and worth getting slabbed.
  • STONESTONE Posts: 15,275 ✭
    These are being advertised and/or sold for $200-500 on eBay. Nice little piece there image

    It is one of the largest Cuds known, but the largest Cud, which I know of, covers about 85-90% of the coin!
  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭


    << <i>These are being advertised and/or sold for $200-500 on eBay. Nice little piece there image

    It is one of the largest Cuds known, but the largest Cud, which I know of, covers about 85-90% of the coin! >>




    Which one would that be, Winston?



    -Pauk
    NGC 2.1 Census! PM me yours!
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    IMHO it's worth more then $200-500 image

    Is that an intense die clash above FDR's hair image
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,543 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nice!

    Probably 1972 or 1973. They had a batch of die steel back then that must have been too brittle, because many dies split rim-to-rim like this. Not all of them separated, however.

    Killer clash marks also! It may have been tghe force of that clash that shattered the obverse die.

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is really cool.
    It doesn't look like a late die state either, so that must have been a clash heard around the room to
    bust the die like that. I am surprised this coin made it out of the mint.
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    that's pretty cool. I want to find a nice modern cud. I'll even accept a smaller one that that.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • GrumpyEdGrumpyEd Posts: 4,749 ✭✭✭
    That is a super nice CUD!!!! image
    Ed
  • WoodenJeffersonWoodenJefferson Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭✭
    ~SHAZAAM~
    Chat Board Lingo

    "Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
  • krankykranky Posts: 8,709 ✭✭✭
    Anyone have an idea why the clash of the "E" by the forehead isn't opposite the "E" on the reverse?

    New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,543 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Anyone have an idea why the clash of the "E" by the forehead isn't opposite the "E" on the reverse? >>



    The picture is a bit out of focus. Are you sure that isn't the P of PLURIBUS? I can't tell.

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • golddustingolddustin Posts: 838 ✭✭
    First, thanks for all the replies - the more, the merrier! Kranky is correct - after looking at the coin a bit closer with a higher power loupe, that is the E from the motto, followed by the dot. Then, just beneath the 'T' you can make out the impression of the larger 'O' from ONE DIME. So, evidently the coin also flipped in the die before or after the die broke.
    There also looks like there are 2 rims along the half of the coin opposite the cud. I've taken some better, brighter pictures for you all to have a look at...maybe that will help to determine just what happened. It is a clad coin - I'll show a pic of the edge, and also that brown spot in the cud area of the reverse is exposed copper from the core.

    Here are the photos - I am anxious to hear the best explanation. BTW - when I told my wife what I found out at the show, she called her Mom, who replied "Tell Chuck NOT to tell your Dad about this!" So she must have found it while cleaning out a drawer or something, and figures he forgot about it....he quite often is a good deal 'under the weather' when he comes home from his rounds. image

    The first 2 were artificial lights, the last is with a flash.

    image

    image

    image

    image
    Don't you know that it's worth
    every treasure on Earth
    to be young at heart?
    And as rich as you are,
    it's much better by far,
    to be young at heart!
  • golddustingolddustin Posts: 838 ✭✭
    It's a shame that the coin lacks a date, but when I look at the pic I just posted using the flash, could that be an '8' in front of the chin? Amazing what a camera can pick up that the naked eye can't!
    Don't you know that it's worth
    every treasure on Earth
    to be young at heart?
    And as rich as you are,
    it's much better by far,
    to be young at heart!
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't think the coin flipped just clashed.
    Think upside down and reversed....
    Or just have a few scotch's neat and you will see it.
    Great coin by the way.
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • golddustingolddustin Posts: 838 ✭✭
    JR - I understand, I remember you explaining that about the pattern coin I had w/clashing. But in this case, it would mean that the dies came together before this coin was struck - I guess that could be why they broke virtually in half?
    Don't you know that it's worth
    every treasure on Earth
    to be young at heart?
    And as rich as you are,
    it's much better by far,
    to be young at heart!
  • STONESTONE Posts: 15,275 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>These are being advertised and/or sold for $200-500 on eBay. Nice little piece there image

    It is one of the largest Cuds known, but the largest Cud, which I know of, covers about 85-90% of the coin! >>




    Which one would that be, Winston?

    -Paul >>


    Paul, I am pretty sure it was/is a Jefferson Nickel. No date, but it appears to be from the 70's, maybe early 80's!
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very cool... one wonders how that made it out of the mint.... a keeper for sure. Cheers, RickO
  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>These are being advertised and/or sold for $200-500 on eBay. Nice little piece there image

    It is one of the largest Cuds known, but the largest Cud, which I know of, covers about 85-90% of the coin! >>




    Which one would that be, Winston?

    -Paul >>


    Paul, I am pretty sure it was/is a Jefferson Nickel. No date, but it appears to be from the 70's, maybe early 80's! >>




    Cool, thanks!



    -Paul
    NGC 2.1 Census! PM me yours!
  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,898 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It doesn't match any of the Cuds I can
    see in either the original Cud Book by
    Mort Goodman, or the more extensive
    Supplement by Sam Thurman, published
    around 1996-97.

    There is a similar (but different die) piece
    pictured, and simply listed as RDC-ND-7
    (the 7th No Date Cud Roos. Dime known
    at the time).

    This area needs a new, updated book listing
    all new cuds in the past 10-15 years that
    have either occured on US coinage, or have
    been discovered. I believe that Frank Leone
    is working on such an update, but I have no
    publishing date, or any other info at this time.

    It's a great example of this type of major Die Break;
    congrats on it, and if indeed a new book is being
    compiled, this should certainly be in it.

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
  • golddustingolddustin Posts: 838 ✭✭
    Fred -
    Thanks again for your insight - I suppose the first step is getting the piece certified. I have a submission ready to go into pcgs, but this will be my first error category submission. It will be interesting to see how it comes back - I'm not very well versed in the Roosies, but as I mentioned in an earlier post, I do think it is close to FB... I don't know if that is even an issue on a coin in this condition.
    Don't you know that it's worth
    every treasure on Earth
    to be young at heart?
    And as rich as you are,
    it's much better by far,
    to be young at heart!
  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭✭
    cooooool
  • GrumpyEdGrumpyEd Posts: 4,749 ✭✭✭
    I wonder where the broken section of the die went.
    Just imagine finding something like that in a bag, a section of the die with the date.
    That would be a neat item along with a coin made from the broken die.

    I guess it could also get between the dies and cause some big die damage and clashing.
    Ed
  • PCcoinsPCcoins Posts: 3,354 ✭✭✭
    So what's it worth about 5 cent? image
    "It is what it is."
  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,881 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Neat coin.
    Here is a 1972-D nickel that is almost ready to drop half the reverse die:

    image
    image
    Moonlight Mint
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,543 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's one of the 1972-73 split die pieces I was referring to. The collar probably helped hold the shattered reverse together.
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>JR - I understand, I remember you explaining that about the pattern coin I had w/clashing. But in this case, it would mean that the dies came together before this coin was struck - I guess that could be why they broke virtually in half? >>



    Exactly
    The Big Bang™ occurred and catastrophically destroyed the die which then post-destruction struck this coin thus creating this monster error.

    Beautiful...really beautiful
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • golddustingolddustin Posts: 838 ✭✭
    That does make a person wonder how this coin could have made out of the mint. I'm in the Pittsburgh area, so I would think that it most likely came from Philly - maybe an employee pocketed it as a keepsake, and over time, it found its way to southwest Pa.
    I'm not much of an error collector - actually not at all - I was just saying to Kranky over the w/e how I NEVER find stuff like this. But when you stop and think about what had to transpire for this coin to exist, it is pretty amazing......and it's obviously a one-of-a-kind piece, since they couldn't have struck any more coins with the dies that produced this!
    I am pretty active in patterns, and I wonder if or how the numerical rarity scale would apply to error coins - Fred mentioned a book of known errors - do they attach a rarity level to errors? Or is it just collector logic that would apply - I've seen repeated cuds on certain statehood quarter coins, and we all know about die breaks & cracks that cause varieties, but what about true, large scale errors such as this and the nickel posted above?

    And maybe somewhere, in an unopened bag of dimes, there is a chunk of die waiting to be discovered!
    Don't you know that it's worth
    every treasure on Earth
    to be young at heart?
    And as rich as you are,
    it's much better by far,
    to be young at heart!
  • toyz4geotoyz4geo Posts: 1,484 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Super Nice!!!image

    My War Nickels https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/nickels/jefferson-nickels-specialty-sets/jefferson-nickels-fs-basic-war-set-circulation-strikes-1942-1945/publishedset/94452

  • golddustingolddustin Posts: 838 ✭✭
    Got the grade today - PCGS MS63 error.....now what should be the next setp? Heritage?

    Chuck
    Don't you know that it's worth
    every treasure on Earth
    to be young at heart?
    And as rich as you are,
    it's much better by far,
    to be young at heart!
  • JupitarCoinsJupitarCoins Posts: 2,595 ✭
    Did it say major cud on the slab?
    Positive:
    BST Transactions: DonnyJf, MrOrganic, Justanothercoinaddict, Fivecents, Slq, Jdimmick,
    Robb, Tee135, Ibzman350, Mercfan, Outhaul, Erickso1, Cugamongacoins, Indiananationals, Wayne Herndon

    Negative BST Transactions:
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>image >>



    Looks like a weenie roast! imageimage
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • golddustingolddustin Posts: 838 ✭✭
    I haven't seen the actual label yet, but the listing in my orders page just says "US error MS63" - do they put the error description on the label routinely, or does the submitter have to ask for it? It seems like it's obvious by looking at the coin.....and Heritage usually does a very good job with pix & descriptions.
    Don't you know that it's worth
    every treasure on Earth
    to be young at heart?
    And as rich as you are,
    it's much better by far,
    to be young at heart!
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,717 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dunno how I missed this the first time around, but I would guess this coin is from 2000. I've seen a lot of split die errors from that year and your coin is what happens when part of the broken die finally comes loose. You can also see very heavy clash marks on the obverse, which is likely the event which started the die to fail.


    Sean Reynolds
    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • BobSavBobSav Posts: 937 ✭✭✭
    Error coins don't do much for me, BUT that's a neat one image

    Bob
    Past transactions with:
    Lordmarcovan, WTCG, YogiBerraFan, Phoenin21, LindeDad, Coll3ctor, blue594, robkoll, Mike Dixon, BloodMan, Flakthat and others.
  • golddustingolddustin Posts: 838 ✭✭
    I got the coin in the mail today, and the pcgs label does indeed read -

    "No Date Mint Error 10C"
    "PCGS MS63"
    "Major Obv Die Break"
    cert # E11111.63/18681578

    Pretty neat - Now what do I do with it? I'm not even close to a specialist in mint errors or their value....this just sort of fell in my lap from the in-laws. If it's true that in 2000 there were several of these, why haven't any more been documented (as per Fred Weinberg) or certified?

    Always Curious -
    Chuck

    thanks to everybody who voiced an opinion!

    Don't you know that it's worth
    every treasure on Earth
    to be young at heart?
    And as rich as you are,
    it's much better by far,
    to be young at heart!
  • TonedRaritiesTonedRarities Posts: 484


    << <i>I got the coin in the mail today, and the pcgs label does indeed read -

    "No Date Mint Error 10C"
    "PCGS MS63"
    "Major Obv Die Break"
    cert # E11111.63/18681578

    Pretty neat - Now what do I do with it? I'm not even close to a specialist in mint errors or their value....this just sort of fell in my lap from the in-laws. If it's true that in 2000 there were several of these, why haven't any more been documented (as per Fred Weinberg) or certified?

    Always Curious -
    Chuck

    thanks to everybody who voiced an opinion! >>



    talk to these guys. They specialize in this.

    http://www.byersnc.com/
  • UnknownUnknown
    This content has been removed.
  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭✭
    i like image

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