After a quick review, I dont see (at a glance) what the protocol is if a buyer says they want it, but then dissapears when it comes time to pay. How long should the seller wait whether he has another offer or not before making the item available again? I said this earlier in this thread (see below) but the keys words are "in a timely manner". I guess thats what my question is, what is a timely manner if nothing was agreed upon with regards to paying? 1 day, 3 days, a week or does the seller send a polite pm asking the buyer to pay, and if so, how long after the buyer said they want it?
<<Im interested means they want to negotiate. I want it means, they want it for the price you have mentioned in your thread. I prefer the term, "lock me in" for the price mentioned in my thread. At that point, it's theirs no matter what happens and we both have an obligation. They buyer to pay what the agreed price is and send payment in a timely manner (or what was agreed upon) and the seller to ship the exact items also in a timely manner.>>
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
In reality, "I'm interested" generally comes with a question. If the question is "send pics as you indicated in your BST listing you would" then I would say they have first dibs. However, in reality, some potential buyers may ask some difficult questions making them good candidates to be passed over, "Could you hold this coin until St.Smithens day, at which time I will pay you 2.9% interested, compounded every 7th day, provided I have a return privalege once the coin is finally delivered. BTW, would you say it is high low or medium for the grade--could you just give me a number on a scale of 100? I prefer to buy coins that are at least 62 out of 100 for the grade."
If a simple "I'll take it" came in after that one, 99.44% of us would replay to the first that the coin has sold. --Jerry
PS The most common question is "Would you take X for it?" I would say the proper response to that would be, "I have a full price offer. You have 12 hours to decide if you would like it at full price since your question came in first. If I don't hear from you by then, I will sell to the next buyer."
12 hours seems fair to me too, but just wanted to get some confirmation. I guess it's a dead deal at this point and I should re-offer the item. Thanks for the help.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
I normally respond to a BST listing with something like "I am interested in xxx if it is still available". How do I know if someone else has already responded to the listing? I have never mentioned negotiating a price and had no intention of doing so. To me, my offer is an offer to buy at the price listed. If I wanted to make an offer at a lower price, I would have said "I am interested in xxx at $YYY if it is still available".
I have always presumed that sending a PM denoting interest puts me into a queue based on the timing of the PM. If someone is ahead of me, fine. First come, first served.
This has never been a problem in the past, but I suspect I will be more definitive in the future.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
I cannot imagine walking into any B&M or at any big coin show---unknown---and say I'm interested and leave expecting them to hold the coin for any length of time. Maybe-Maybe if one says for 1 hour--here is a deposit, or I won't be able to say for sure until my last offer is denied or accepted, or I need some additional info-suchas.....For someone to merely pm a bst seller with an I'm interested and no time frame, additional info request, nor when/why info, would merely be a wasted pm in my opinion. Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
In reading this thread, one not familiar with pricing on the BST would assume that the opportunity to immediately purchase coins very attractively priced as an ad first pops up is quite common. Hence the need to be quick on the draw to lock in that bargain: "yes, I want it, at full price, with no picture, cash in the mail, no recourse, and no other guarantees." But this is not the case for the majority of BST transactions unless the seller happens to be someone like Jim Dimmick who has an established reputation for selling at wholesale and delivering exactly what he said he would. Therefore, most potential BST transactions do need some question(s) to be answered even if it's simply "who are you, and how do I know I can trust you to send the merchandise once you have my cleared funds?" Usually the first question I ask when I send along an "I'm interested PM" is who are your trade/forum references? After having been burned at least once in your past in a coin mail order transaction you'll understand the need for the question(s). If someone is willing to send funds to an unverified seller then by all means, sell to them first. I'd say more than around half of my BST buys have included a question on references as the seller wasn't well known to me. In some cases I've asked the seller to ship first (based on supplying references) if only because it involved bullion where prices can change drastically by the time your funds are received and the merchandise gets shipped. Again, if someone else is happy to send a mony order and wait 2 weeks while bullion markets flucuate, that's their prerogative. One can only ask questions to help make a more suitable investment decision for their transaction. If a seller is not willing to exchange some PM's and answer some of these basic questions they are probably not someone worth doing business with. Fwiw I've not yet run into any such person on the BST. All have been quite willing to spend some extra time to make a transaction work, even if there might have been someone waiting in the wings to fork over their money with zero due diligence.
From what I've seen 80+% of initial BST prices take a flyer at trying to hook someone near full retail, or even higher if possible. Many times it's simply that the seller has no clue as to current market prices...or that they paid X for something 3 yrs ago and want X+15% back out of it. Therefore that initial "I'm interested PM" might be accompanied by I'd pay "Y percent less" than the asking price since the response would be probably zero otherwise. I would think that most BST sellers would appreciate some feedback on where their pricing stands rather than dropping their price every week for 2 months before they get their first "I'm interested reply, but..." Often times I've asked the question if I can send a check (listing forum and trade references) rather than meet the stated "US Postal money order or paypal" only conditions. It doesn't mean my money is any less good or less certain than the next guy who doesn't mind using those other methods, I just don't like to use them for my own reasons. And the seller is rightfully concerned about accepting a bad check from someone unknown to them.
BST protocol....if you aren't asking questions, you might be leaving yourself open for some unexpected disappointment, including loss of your cash. In 36 years of hundreds of mail order transactions I've been taken twice by collectors and thrice by dealers who closed up shop or beat feet out of town...fortunately, none of these were by anyone on these forums.
I cannot imagine walking into any B&M or at any big coin show---unknown---and say I'm interested and leave expecting them to hold the coin for any length of time. Maybe-Maybe if one says for 1 hour--here is a deposit, or I won't be able to say for sure until my last offer is denied or accepted, or I need some additional info-suchas.....For someone to merely pm a bst seller with an I'm interested and no time frame, additional info request, nor when/why info, would merely be a wasted pm in my opinion
That is exactly how I felt being the seller in a recent (hopeful) transaction. But I'm willing to go 12 hours now I guess. I just feel saying that in a PM, "you have 12 hours to decide or pay, etc." makes it sound like a hostage situation. What would be a maybe kinder way to say it but still get the point across that this deal/offer is good for 12 hours?
Got another question regarding trading on the BST. If someone wants to trade, they initiate by asking, and it's something we agree upon BUT it is someone you have not done any previous dealings with...who sends their item first, and does the receiver wait til the item has arrived before sending out the other traded item? Thanks, I appreciate the help.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
I understand what RR is saying, but I have never been burned on a transaction (not yet, anyway), and I have never had a buying or selling problem on the BST.
Most of my transactions have been with people with whom I have bantered with on the USCF, often people I have met in person, and people who have a history and verifiable references. They are people who I already trust and likely already trust me. The degree to which I know the other party is the proportional to the level of comfort. If I do not know the other party, I generally do not make an offer. If an unknown party approaches me for a purchase, if it is a low dollar item, I will go through with it. If it is a high dollar item, I may be inclined to pass on the offer. I do not feel compelled to work with everybody and anybody.
That said, this thread is more about protocol. A common sense approach works best. If you make a bunch of rules (ie. 12 hours to respond, first inquiry first in line, etc.), you paint yourself into a corner. When fielding inquiries, I will answer questions for as many folks who ask, but the first to say, "I'll take it", gets it.
When I am buying coins, if I make an inquiry and disappear for a few hours, and the coin is sold in the interval, c'est la vie. If I am desperate to buy something, I will indicate so, leave a phone number, etc. to indicate my level of interest.
Folks, it's not a life and death issue where a specific standard and protocol need be applied. Buyers and sellers are coming and going from the site at various times, without warning, and I think both parties need to be flexible. It seems to work reasonably well overall, IMO.
Got another question regarding trading on the BST. If someone wants to trade, they initiate by asking, and it's something we agree upon BUT it is someone you have not done any previous dealings with...who sends their item first, and does the receiver wait til the item has arrived before sending out the other traded item? Thanks, I appreciate the help.
I feel that the seller with the strongest references gets the nod. But, I've worked transactions both ways. If I'm comfortable with the references on the other end I don't mind sending my cash or items out first. Just because you responded to the seller doesn't automatically give them the right to stand for payment first. It's all negotiable. This is especially true when sending an item that really has to be seen in hand before the transaction can be completed. There are times when a photo is just not going to cut it no matter how good the photo is. And in that case I can't see a potential buyer having to deposit funds into your account with the very real potential of that coin being returned. In any case it comes down to each specific buyer and seller and what they each bring to the table. That's why I don't agree with the concept that the seller by definition gets to hold all the cards. If that were the case, I'd have conducted far fewer transactions over the years. During the 1980's I don't think I ever had to send out payment first on any coin I was interested in. Everything was on approval back then as long as you had decent references. If a seller wants to hold all the cards, all the time, it will shrink the buyer's pool by some amount.
You can do all the due diligence you want and get the best references, but it's no guarantee. A very respected member of the LSCC gave me a run around for nearly 2 yrs on a coin I sent them on approval. You just never know. Each person has to deal with things to their individual comfort level. And certainly I can see why some sellers might want to hold all the cards all the time.
Thanks for all the help guys, I sincerely appreciate it.
For the record, I'm not saying anything is really wrong with the BST forum. Being fairly new to this site though (about 1.5 years), I'm still coming across things for the first time and just want to do what the standard is...and not p*ss anyone off, or be p*ssed off for that matter also.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
I have had deals go south when someone has PMed me saying they "are interested" and another person PM saying they "will take it". I've held out for the first one only to back away, then the second person already finding one elsewhere. So, therefore, I will sell it to the one that says they will take it. That, however, rarely happens that two people will PM about the same coin within minutes or eeven hours while I am away.
<< <i>I would let the first guy know that there is another buyer and to Please let you know ASAP if he wants it. If he's kicking tires and asks for a better price you tell them no thank you and tell the second guy to send payment. Spending a lot of time with the first guy when the second guy is ready to go ain't fair to you or him. Rock n Roll with the real buyer. >>
<< <i>When you accepted the offer, did you say anything to the buyer about how long you expected to be physically paid? >>
Yes, and both said they would mail check next day. First dirt bag ignored my PM's when I asked about payment, the second had a string of stories but payment never arrived. I've received several PM's regarding both "members" confirming their pattern. They are two problem buyers to avoid. Your mileage may vary.
Dont worry about it OCG. Everyone who has dealt with either of the 2 Sean mentions knows the truth to be 180 degrees of what he claims. I dont understand what he is really trying to do. It's not like he was conned or something like that. I havent dealt with kieferscoins, but i've done many transactions with William and have not had any problems. In fact, he went way out of his way once to make sure a check cleared to MY bank so I could access the funds 3-4 days quicker. It was for a large sum and my bank wouldnt process it in a timely manner. He had his bank call my bank to confirm the funds were good, so I didnt have to wait the 4 days my bank was saying it was going to be before I could get to the money. William went way beyond the call of duty in helping me out with that...and it wasnt anything he had to do either. He did it because I half-arse mentioned about not having the funds to buy something due to having to wait 4 days. It was my problem, not his. Again, I dont know all the details because I wasnt involved with their transactions. I'm just saying I'm having a hard time believing what Sean is claiming based on my many transactions with William and what he did for me on the above mentioned transaction.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
<< <i>I would go with the first guy but let them know that there is someone next in line that wants it so ether work this deal or I'm moving on. >>
This.
1st person still gets the first opportunity to buy, but it's at the listed price with no negotiation, and commitment needed pronto; no more than 24 hours allowed for a decision one way or the other. If they don't respond, or waffle, or want to dicker, then 2nd person gets it.
I would also PM 2nd person saying that they were the 2nd to respond, but payment logistics were pending, and that I would follow up regardless within a day.
In my mind it's no different than when you see "ON HOLD PENDING PAYMENT" on the BST. To me that reads that I can still inquire about buying the coin in the event the first party doesn't come through.
That is a toughie. I personally would let the guy who is "interested" know that I have a buyer and I need to know if he wants it. At that point, you put the ball in his court and you don't hold off the buyer for too long.
Comments
I said this earlier in this thread (see below) but the keys words are "in a timely manner". I guess thats what my question is, what is a timely manner if nothing was agreed upon with regards to paying? 1 day, 3 days, a week or does the seller send a polite pm asking the buyer to pay, and if so, how long after the buyer said they want it?
<<Im interested means they want to negotiate. I want it means, they want it for the price you have mentioned in your thread.
I prefer the term, "lock me in" for the price mentioned in my thread. At that point, it's theirs no matter what happens and we both have an obligation. They buyer to pay what the agreed price is and send payment in a timely manner (or what was agreed upon) and the seller to ship the exact items also in a timely manner.>>
Hello
If this is still available I will take it at the listed price.
Please provide mailing address. I will send a Postal Money Order.
If seller responds that item is mine Postal Money Order goes in the mail on the next business day.
When I receive item(s) I send a PM to seller thanking them for the item(s)
Regards, Larry
that unless they get the coin at the right price, they will burn your house down.
One might have to give some extra thought to your decision.
Any way, when I say I am interested, I add, at your best price delivered. Upon receiving the reply,
I either send immediate payment plus a confirming E.Mail or I send a polite decline notice. That way,
the seller knows where he stands as soon as possible.
Camelot
If a simple "I'll take it" came in after that one, 99.44% of us would replay to the first that the coin has sold. --Jerry
PS The most common question is "Would you take X for it?" I would say the proper response to that would be, "I have a full price offer. You have 12 hours to decide if you would like it at full price since your question came in first. If I don't hear from you by then, I will sell to the next buyer."
I normally respond to a BST listing with something like "I am interested in xxx if it is still available". How do I know if someone else has already responded to the listing? I have never mentioned negotiating a price and had no intention of doing so. To me, my offer is an offer to buy at the price listed. If I wanted to make an offer at a lower price, I would have said "I am interested in xxx at $YYY if it is still available".
I have always presumed that sending a PM denoting interest puts me into a queue based on the timing of the PM. If someone is ahead of me, fine. First come, first served.
This has never been a problem in the past, but I suspect I will be more definitive in the future.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
Dan
Franklins
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
From what I've seen 80+% of initial BST prices take a flyer at trying to hook someone near full retail, or even higher if possible. Many times it's simply that the seller has no clue as to current market prices...or that they paid X for something 3 yrs ago and want X+15% back out of it. Therefore that initial "I'm interested PM" might be accompanied by I'd pay "Y percent less" than the asking price since the response would be probably zero otherwise. I would think that most BST sellers would appreciate some feedback on where their pricing stands rather than dropping their price every week for 2 months before they get their first "I'm interested reply, but..." Often times I've asked the question if I can send a check (listing forum and trade references) rather than meet the stated "US Postal money order or paypal" only conditions. It doesn't mean my money is any less good or less certain than the next guy who doesn't mind using those other methods, I just don't like to use them for my own reasons. And the seller is rightfully concerned about accepting a bad check from someone unknown to them.
BST protocol....if you aren't asking questions, you might be leaving yourself open for some unexpected disappointment, including loss of your cash. In 36 years of hundreds of mail order transactions I've been taken twice by collectors and thrice by dealers who closed up shop or beat feet out of town...fortunately, none of these were by anyone on these forums.
roadrunner
That is exactly how I felt being the seller in a recent (hopeful) transaction. But I'm willing to go 12 hours now I guess. I just feel saying that in a PM, "you have 12 hours to decide or pay, etc." makes it sound like a hostage situation. What would be a maybe kinder way to say it but still get the point across that this deal/offer is good for 12 hours?
Got another question regarding trading on the BST. If someone wants to trade, they initiate by asking, and it's something we agree upon BUT it is someone you have not done any previous dealings with...who sends their item first, and does the receiver wait til the item has arrived before sending out the other traded item?
Thanks, I appreciate the help.
Most of my transactions have been with people with whom I have bantered with on the USCF, often people I have met in person, and people who have a history and verifiable references. They are people who I already trust and likely already trust me. The degree to which I know the other party is the proportional to the level of comfort. If I do not know the other party, I generally do not make an offer. If an unknown party approaches me for a purchase, if it is a low dollar item, I will go through with it. If it is a high dollar item, I may be inclined to pass on the offer. I do not feel compelled to work with everybody and anybody.
That said, this thread is more about protocol. A common sense approach works best. If you make a bunch of rules (ie. 12 hours to respond, first inquiry first in line, etc.), you paint yourself into a corner. When fielding inquiries, I will answer questions for as many folks who ask, but the first to say, "I'll take it", gets it.
When I am buying coins, if I make an inquiry and disappear for a few hours, and the coin is sold in the interval, c'est la vie. If I am desperate to buy something, I will indicate so, leave a phone number, etc. to indicate my level of interest.
Folks, it's not a life and death issue where a specific standard and protocol need be applied. Buyers and sellers are coming and going from the site at various times, without warning, and I think both parties need to be flexible. It seems to work reasonably well overall, IMO.
Thanks, I appreciate the help.
I feel that the seller with the strongest references gets the nod. But, I've worked transactions both ways. If I'm comfortable with the references on the other end I don't mind sending my cash or items out first. Just because you responded to the seller doesn't automatically give them the right to stand for payment first. It's all negotiable. This is especially true when sending an item that really has to be seen in hand before the transaction can be completed. There are times when a photo is just not going to cut it no matter how good the photo is. And in that case I can't see a potential buyer having to deposit funds into your account with the very real potential of that coin being returned. In any case it comes down to each specific buyer and seller and what they each bring to the table. That's why I don't agree with the concept that the seller by definition gets to hold all the cards. If that were the case, I'd have conducted far fewer transactions over the years. During the 1980's I don't think I ever had to send out payment first on any coin I was interested in. Everything was on approval back then as long as you had decent references. If a seller wants to hold all the cards, all the time, it will shrink the buyer's pool by some amount.
You can do all the due diligence you want and get the best references, but it's no guarantee. A very respected member of the LSCC gave me a run around for nearly 2 yrs on a coin I sent them on approval. You just never know. Each person has to deal with things to their individual comfort level. And certainly I can see why some sellers might want to hold all the cards all the time.
roadrunner
For the record, I'm not saying anything is really wrong with the BST forum. Being fairly new to this site though (about 1.5 years), I'm still coming across things for the first time and just want to do what the standard is...and not p*ss anyone off, or be p*ssed off for that matter also.
<< <i>I would let the first guy know that there is another buyer and to Please
let you know ASAP if he wants it. If he's kicking tires and asks for a
better price you tell them no thank you and tell the second guy to send
payment. Spending a lot of time with the first guy when the second guy
is ready to go ain't fair to you or him. Rock n Roll with the real buyer. >>
AB
See sigline below.
When you accepted the offer, did you say anything to the buyer about how long you expected to be physically paid?
<< <i>When you accepted the offer, did you say anything to the buyer about how long you expected to be physically paid? >>
Yes, and both said they would mail check next day.
First dirt bag ignored my PM's when I asked about payment, the second had a string of stories but payment never arrived.
I've received several PM's regarding both "members" confirming their pattern.
They are two problem buyers to avoid.
Your mileage may vary.
I dont understand what he is really trying to do. It's not like he was conned or something like that. I havent dealt with kieferscoins, but i've done many transactions with William and have not had any problems.
In fact, he went way out of his way once to make sure a check cleared to MY bank so I could access the funds 3-4 days quicker. It was for a large sum and my bank wouldnt process it in a timely manner. He had his bank call my bank to confirm the funds were good, so I didnt have to wait the 4 days my bank was saying it was going to be before I could get to the money. William went way beyond the call of duty in helping me out with that...and it wasnt anything he had to do either. He did it because I half-arse mentioned about not having the funds to buy something due to having to wait 4 days. It was my problem, not his.
Again, I dont know all the details because I wasnt involved with their transactions. I'm just saying I'm having a hard time believing what Sean is claiming based on my many transactions with William and what he did for me on the above mentioned transaction.
<< <i>Everyone who has dealt with either of the 2 Sean mentions knows the truth to be 180 degrees of what he claims. >>
Well, not everyone.
<< <i>I would go with the first guy but let them know that there is someone next in line that wants it so ether work this deal or I'm moving on. >>
This.
1st person still gets the first opportunity to buy, but it's at the listed price with no negotiation, and commitment needed pronto; no more than 24 hours allowed for a decision one way or the other. If they don't respond, or waffle, or want to dicker, then 2nd person gets it.
I would also PM 2nd person saying that they were the 2nd to respond, but payment logistics were pending, and that I would follow up regardless within a day.
In my mind it's no different than when you see "ON HOLD PENDING PAYMENT" on the BST. To me that reads that I can still inquire about buying the coin in the event the first party doesn't come through.
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