An 1893-S Barber Half & 1897-S CENTER MINTMARK(!!!) Barber Quarter
TomB
Posts: 22,097 ✭✭✭✭✭
There have been myriad threads warning folks to stay away from raw coins on ebay. In many instances this is indeed wise, but as long as one has fairly good knowledge then buying raw on ebay can yield fantastic results. I have done well with raw purchases from ebay in the past, but must admit that I only find something worth buying every few months; perhaps a bit more frequently, perhaps a bit less frequently.
In March I was going through an ebay search and noted an 1893-S Barber half that was being offered raw at between Greysheet F12 and VF20 from a brick and mortar shop in the midwest. The image used was a scan and this might explain why the coin sat all day without someone buying it up as soon as it was listed. I, however, have had quite a bit of experience scanning coins and interpreting scans of coins since it was less than ten years ago that scans were nearly as good as digital photography. Immediately, I pounced on the BIN and waited with a mixture of excitement and dread for the coin to arrive. It came carefully packaged in bubble wrap within a bubble wrap mailer and was a wonderful, original VF35 with terrific, grey surfaces and only an old, toned over, vertical scratch through the intricate reverse shield to mar the coin. My grade was VF35, but I know I am a bit more strict than PCGS on these coins so it was not that surprising to hear from other Barber enthusiasts that the coin would grade EF40. It was submitted to PCGS at the Baltimore show and received the EF40 grade.
Subsequently, in August of this year I spotted an 1897-S Barber quarter in a true auction on ebay. The images were pretty decent and made the coin look to have original or nearly original surfaces, but the images were too small to see much detail. I saved the images and blew them up only to see that the pixelation was tremendous, but my familiarity with the series led me to believe that the coin retained overal VF20 or so details. An 1897-S Barber quarter in VF20 is darn scarce, one in VF20 with more or less original surfaces is a coin few of us will ever see in-hand; but an 1897-S Barber quarter in VF20 with more or less original surfaces and the very rare center mintmark location? Well, maybe Sasquatch has a hoard of these, but I had never seen one...until the ebay auction. The seller runs many coin auctions as consignments and was evidently unaware of the rare mintmark location for this issue and therefore never mentioned it in the listing. My wife had some friends over on the night that the auction closed and they asked what I was doing by the computer. I told them I was waiting to wildly overpay for this old, worn coin. The auction closed, my high bid was in the four figures and I won the piece for under $500. Again, I waited patiently for my newest find and it did not disappoint. In-hand I graded the coin VF20 and told a few forum members that I thought PCGS might grade the coin VF30. However, in my own Excel inventory I was a bit more cautious and recorded the coin as F15. The grades arrived today and it received a VF30.
To help put these two coins into perspective, I have always considered the 1893-S Barber half to be the single toughest mid-grade coin in the entire 78-coin series exclusive of the micro-O variety. Over recent years the 1904-S has garnered much publicity and many bow down in awe at that issue, but my experience tells me that the 1893-S is still the coin in this series. The 1897-S Barber quarter is a bit different since it inhabits a universe dominated by the "Big Three" issues of 1896-S, 1901-S and 1913-S. The 1901-S dwarfs all others for price and is indeed a mind-numbing $10,000 coin in VG8. A coin that I have always found tough as any to find in the Barber quarter series is the 1897-S and David Feigenbaum (aka David Lawrence) wrote in part about the 1897-S the following-
"My favorite date. Where have they all gone. This coin is only available in AG to VG condition. The moment a Fine or better specimen comes on the market-even with problems-it is sold."
He also wrote of this issue-
"Two far right mint mark positions were identified in the First Edition. A third, in the center, has since been found. I have only seen one high grade specimen (a cleaned AU) of this die (plate coin). An EF has been reported to me."
I realize those comments were written in 1994, but wow, this was a person who studied, dealt in and specialized in Barber coinage for over forty years by the time that analysis was put in print. For me, finding a more or less original 1897-S in mid-grade with center mintmark was always the pinnacle of Barber quarter collecting. Without further blah, blah, blah here are images of the 1893-S Barber half in its PCGS EF40 holder and the 1897-S Barber quarter center mintmark before certification.
In March I was going through an ebay search and noted an 1893-S Barber half that was being offered raw at between Greysheet F12 and VF20 from a brick and mortar shop in the midwest. The image used was a scan and this might explain why the coin sat all day without someone buying it up as soon as it was listed. I, however, have had quite a bit of experience scanning coins and interpreting scans of coins since it was less than ten years ago that scans were nearly as good as digital photography. Immediately, I pounced on the BIN and waited with a mixture of excitement and dread for the coin to arrive. It came carefully packaged in bubble wrap within a bubble wrap mailer and was a wonderful, original VF35 with terrific, grey surfaces and only an old, toned over, vertical scratch through the intricate reverse shield to mar the coin. My grade was VF35, but I know I am a bit more strict than PCGS on these coins so it was not that surprising to hear from other Barber enthusiasts that the coin would grade EF40. It was submitted to PCGS at the Baltimore show and received the EF40 grade.
Subsequently, in August of this year I spotted an 1897-S Barber quarter in a true auction on ebay. The images were pretty decent and made the coin look to have original or nearly original surfaces, but the images were too small to see much detail. I saved the images and blew them up only to see that the pixelation was tremendous, but my familiarity with the series led me to believe that the coin retained overal VF20 or so details. An 1897-S Barber quarter in VF20 is darn scarce, one in VF20 with more or less original surfaces is a coin few of us will ever see in-hand; but an 1897-S Barber quarter in VF20 with more or less original surfaces and the very rare center mintmark location? Well, maybe Sasquatch has a hoard of these, but I had never seen one...until the ebay auction. The seller runs many coin auctions as consignments and was evidently unaware of the rare mintmark location for this issue and therefore never mentioned it in the listing. My wife had some friends over on the night that the auction closed and they asked what I was doing by the computer. I told them I was waiting to wildly overpay for this old, worn coin. The auction closed, my high bid was in the four figures and I won the piece for under $500. Again, I waited patiently for my newest find and it did not disappoint. In-hand I graded the coin VF20 and told a few forum members that I thought PCGS might grade the coin VF30. However, in my own Excel inventory I was a bit more cautious and recorded the coin as F15. The grades arrived today and it received a VF30.
To help put these two coins into perspective, I have always considered the 1893-S Barber half to be the single toughest mid-grade coin in the entire 78-coin series exclusive of the micro-O variety. Over recent years the 1904-S has garnered much publicity and many bow down in awe at that issue, but my experience tells me that the 1893-S is still the coin in this series. The 1897-S Barber quarter is a bit different since it inhabits a universe dominated by the "Big Three" issues of 1896-S, 1901-S and 1913-S. The 1901-S dwarfs all others for price and is indeed a mind-numbing $10,000 coin in VG8. A coin that I have always found tough as any to find in the Barber quarter series is the 1897-S and David Feigenbaum (aka David Lawrence) wrote in part about the 1897-S the following-
"My favorite date. Where have they all gone. This coin is only available in AG to VG condition. The moment a Fine or better specimen comes on the market-even with problems-it is sold."
He also wrote of this issue-
"Two far right mint mark positions were identified in the First Edition. A third, in the center, has since been found. I have only seen one high grade specimen (a cleaned AU) of this die (plate coin). An EF has been reported to me."
I realize those comments were written in 1994, but wow, this was a person who studied, dealt in and specialized in Barber coinage for over forty years by the time that analysis was put in print. For me, finding a more or less original 1897-S in mid-grade with center mintmark was always the pinnacle of Barber quarter collecting. Without further blah, blah, blah here are images of the 1893-S Barber half in its PCGS EF40 holder and the 1897-S Barber quarter center mintmark before certification.
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Comments
www.brunkauctions.com
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
kewl stuff Tom ... very KEWL
Okay, I have a small story to share, and I hope Tom doesn't mind that I will copy an paste an excerpt from a PM we shared.
I also purchased a 97-S Quarter recently (in V.Ch.AU), although mine is the far right variety MM. I waited until I had her in hand before I posted my thread about her, but I was estatic to find what I feel is one of the most elusive of all Barber Quarters, regardless of mintmark positioning. I had been looking for the 97-S in Choice AU for a LONG time.
I don't think the rarity was lost on many of the Barberophiles, although conversation in that thread did question the MM position. That poster was concerned that far right didn't exist. Discussion then gravitated to explaining the two positions for the 97-S (and other pre-97 dates). Tom was also a participant in the thread. Given the posts in the thread (not many, but a few), when Tom sent me this a couple days later I could feel the anxiety he must have had;
Your post about the 1897-S Barber quarter scared the bejeebers out of me the other night because I thought that it might lead others to actively search for this coin. The timing could not have come at a potentially worse time because there was an auction I was watching on ebay with an apparently original skin, mid-grade center mintmark (!) 1897-S Barber quarter that was ending while the discussion was going on about your new acquisition. I ended up winning the coin and received a signature notification in the mail today, so I will have it on Monday. ------------------------------------------------------------ and David Feigenbaum wrote in his book "I have only seen one high grade specimen (a cleaned AU) of this die (plate coin). An EF has been reported to me". He also believed that the center mintmark position for this date was at least one RR factor tougher than the other position. In my experience, I think 5-10% of the 1897-S quarters have the center mintmark position, so this new purchase of mine has the potential to be uber-cool.
Again, congratulations Tom on a wonderful pick-up, and I'm glad you got the grade you (and I) felt it deserved! Hope you don't mind my sharing parts of your PM.
Very nice 93-S Half btw ... no small achievement there either!
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Congrats!
BTW, I'm not a specialist in Barber pieces. Can you explain the center mintmark for the quarter? Where is the center mintmark supposed to be vs. the more common location?
Thanks.
<< <i>1897-S CENTER MINTMARK(!!!) Barber Quarter >>
siliconvalleycoins.com
Nice stuff.
You're a braver man than I on buying raw coins on eBay.
I have never seen a center MM on an 1897-S Quarter - so -
thanks for sharing it with us. Mine is a far right MM as most are.
The 1893-S Halves are one of my favorite dates... as a matter of
fact its one of five coins I withheld from the recent consignment of
my 2nd Tier collection.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
<< <i>I have never seen a center MM on an 1897-S Quarter - so -
thanks for sharing it with us. Mine is a far right MM as most are. >>
Thanks. I just looked one up in photos. I guess "Centerish" or "Mid-Right" would be more technically correct than "Center"
The 97-S that I spoke of in my post (mine is considered the "Far Right" position - of which I have seen two different actual positions in basically the same area) and further info' about MM positions on early Barber Quarters can be found in this thread Thread about 97-S
Hope that helps!
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Typical location (over D in DOLLAR)
Center location (between R and D from QUARTER DOLLAR)
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Here's an old image of my 1897-S Quarter - Far Right MM - when it was in NGC plastic.
The coin crossed grade for grade a few years back. [ I wish I kept the image of another
1897-S Quarter that I use to own in an ANACS 61 holder... but I guess that was before
I owned a computer... ]
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
That's the same 93-S that I was drooling over? It's a FANTASTIC coin and I told ya it was an XF!
I also agree, the 93-S is quite probably the rarest Barber Half in VF-XF, they simply do not exist. I was lucky enough to buy one earlier in the year, and I have yet to see another offered.
Indeed, the 93-S Barber half is almost never encountered. For the price, a collector is getting such a relative rarity. I too believe the 93-S is the toughest coin in VG10-AU53/55. Well, from my experiences, the 1901-S is its only equal. The 1904-S prices have brought that coin out of the woodwork. The 1901-S has been a tough date well before the grading services existed and well before the 04-S was on the radar. I have owned just two or three 93-S fines in over ten years collecting, and it isn't for a lack of searching. I have searched extensively for that date, but decent (they don't have to be perfect) examples are almost never offered. I have never owned a truly original choice Fine 1901-S.
When I first started collecting, an Ebay seller was selling off a collection for a sick friend who had collected Barbers (halves, quarters and dimes) for over 40 years. He sent me pic after pic of dozens and dozens of halves and let me have first dibs before he put the coins on Ebay. Well, I picked up quite a few halves on my meager budget, when out of the blue he sent a large pic of six...SIX 1897-S quarters, center mintmark (R7 according to David Lawrence) all in the choice VF-AU range.
Well, The coins did look cleaned, or at the least, they just didn't have that two tone circulated original look that I strive to find. So, I passed on them all. I thought about buying the nicest looking XF, but I thought, "what am I going to do with a lone barber quarter"? Plus, he wasn't exactly giving them away and my budget couldn't stretch.
Turns out, another wealthy Barber collector soon contacted this seller and offered to buy the rest of the collection, including the six 97-S quarters. This collector and I used to write, but I lost contact with him about 2003 and have wondered what he is up to and if he still active.
If you are that West Coast collector (Bay area I believe) and read this by some chance. Say hello please Mike (I think that was his name).
My heirloom 93-S. It is only a fine, but it is the nicest of maybe three I have owned, and purchased way back in 02' on an Ebay BIN for $200.00. That was exactly the retail price in F12 at the time. I had it graded and PCGS went overkill on the grade. I grade it choice F15.
Tyler
I have owned a few 93-S Halves - and am down to two now.
Knowing they were extremely difficult to locate, I bought a VF 30
in a PCGS holder last year - and had quite some trouble selling it;
only one collector realized its worth and it finally sold on the BST.
Tyler, I remember your 1893-S in PCGS 58 - it had very dark toning
but it was one of the most beautiful 93-S's I had ever seen.
I basically traded my 55
with Brandon for his 58 plus some cash...
and I was thrilled to have owned either coin.
Here's the 1893-S from my second set which I decided not to sell.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
U.S. Type Set
In my mint state set, I started with a very nice MS 63 which then led to a very decent MS 64 to replace it, and finally with the current MS 65. I looked at the one and only MS 66 graded-PCGS example in the Duckor set, but the coin just didn't do it for me. It is the Pryor coin and the first ever to grade full gem at PCGS way back in about 1996. My coin is blast white and has wonderful luster. The Eliasberg coin has been graded as MS 64, and very few examples are better. Without looking it up, I know there is the one MS 66, three MS 65's and then MS 64's in the PCGS population.
The 97-S quarter is another monster to obtain in mid-grade nice condition. I haven't done all that much with the quarters, but I know of the difficulty of the 97-S.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
All I can say is man I'm happy for you! Good darn find!
<< <i>Not in the mid-grade league, but I was able to pick up this Good-4 (I think) centered mintmark quarter for under $100.
So does that make your specimen the fourth known?
I honestly don't know. There were some estimates that between 5% and 10% of 1897-S quarters were "centered mintmark", so I would assume there are others known. Anyone else have any?
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
The Barber Coin Collectors Society has asked a small number of
Barber collectors to form a committee to discuss varieties on Quarters.
I linked this Thread to the other members - and I hope some one else
chimes in. The rarity of the Center MM is known by specialists but not
so much by the average collector [ who may not know what they have ].
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
But good luck getting anyone to pay you a premium when you want to selll it, reguardless of the MM location.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i><< So does that make your specimen the fourth known? >>
I honestly don't know. There were some estimates that between 5% and 10% of 1897-S quarters were "centered mintmark", so I would assume there are others known. Anyone else have any? >>
I passed on a Good a dealer had at a show last month, that I spotted right after this thread was first posted. I 'assumed' that there was nothing special about a low grade example of this variety....assuming he still has it this month, priced around Bid, is it worth picking up? I did snag the 09O quarter in Fine he had at Bid
Greg,
I wouldn't pay a premium for a low grade example.
The BCCS survey showed 56 in G reported by its
members. Its the Higher Grades ...ie: VF +++ that
command a premium...but only to Dyed in the Wool
Barber Collectors... the non-Barber educated
collector or dealer wouldn't pay a premium ... just
the specialist dealers.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
<< <i>Its the Higher Grades ...ie: VF +++ that command a premium...but only to Dyed in the Wool Barber Collectors... >>
It's nice that dyed in the wool Barber collectors on a tight budget can pick up lower-grade varieties like this one cheaply.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
there are a few of these centered MM 1897s barber quarters on ebay right now. all low grade, two good and one raw i have seen so far
[Ebay Store - Come Visit]
Roosevelt Registry
transactions with cucamongacoin, FHC, mtinis, bigjpst, Rob41281, toyz4geo, erwindoc, add your name here!!!
of even more intrigue is this.......
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/564087/1897-S-Barber-Quarter-PCGS-XF-45
[Ebay Store - Come Visit]
Roosevelt Registry
transactions with cucamongacoin, FHC, mtinis, bigjpst, Rob41281, toyz4geo, erwindoc, add your name here!!!
Congrats tom and nice account of the purchases, for some reason I cant view the images, gotta love computers thanks rln
Nice thread revival.
I only have 2 center MM's on the '97 S, one is an AG, and one a VG
BHNC #203
Hopefully sellers are waking up to the fact that they will never get real market for uncertified coins. Even Anacs annd Icg coins properly imaged, unshilled, will bring near market.
93-S half is my OCD coin, can’t get enough of them.