Options
Some "guy" on eBay swears this is a DDO. WTH?
Griv
Posts: 2,804 ✭
Now I've been blistered over several strong DDOs that were actually mechanical doubling and here is the WEAK mechanical doubling (if you can actually see any) that was graded MS62 and attributed DDO by NGC. Is this total BS or is this a real DDO? If so then I give up on what a DDO is.
I will say that PCGS has DNC's 5 of my ANACS and NGC DDO/DDRs over the last year with zero crossed.
CwPMcV+BMR1q5OQMg~~_3.JPG)
I will say that PCGS has DNC's 5 of my ANACS and NGC DDO/DDRs over the last year with zero crossed.
0
Comments
They went to a lot of trouble to find workds that a drill sargent can say on TV....
Personally, I don't go for anything that's not obvious.
When you use high magnification you can always see some kind of defect.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Oh, and I agree with TDN.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
The doubling is much more evident on the date, and in other designs on the obverse. The pictures shown are of parts of the coin were the doubling is not so evident. However, I can see the doubling in these pictures.
The coin is a true doubled die.
<< <i>Personally, I don't go for anything that's not obvious. >>
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>Now I've been blistered over several strong DDOs that were actually mechanical doubling and here is the WEAK mechanical doubling (if you can actually see any) that was graded MS62 and attributed DDO by NGC. Is this total BS or is this a real DDO? If so then I give up on what a DDO is.
I will say that PCGS has DNC's 5 of my ANACS and NGC DDO/DDRs over the last year with zero crossed.
THAT is a DDO, but this is not a DDR?
<< <i>
<< <i>Now I've been blistered over several strong DDOs that were actually mechanical doubling and here is the WEAK mechanical doubling (if you can actually see any) that was graded MS62 and attributed DDO by NGC. Is this total BS or is this a real DDO? If so then I give up on what a DDO is.
I will say that PCGS has DNC's 5 of my ANACS and NGC DDO/DDRs over the last year with zero crossed.
THAT is a DDO, but this is not a DDR?
Nope that looks like machine doubling/shelf doubling.
The mint mark and design show the same doubling. As the mint mark is added after the die is sunk (and potentially doubled), seeing doubling on both is almost assuredly a sign of strike doubling.
The secondary image of the vertical part of the 2nd L in MONTICELLO is squashed into a different shape. For die doubling, both images would be well-formed, but one likely weaker. For strike doubling, the coin is struck once, and there is a slight shift in registration between the struck coin and die as the die contacts it a second time, flattening part of the design. Note that for incuse design elements, the effects are reversed, as the raised part of the die is squashed when hit a second time by the hub.
PCGS will not list minor doubled dies unless they are listed in the CPG (except for their exclusions) or other attribution guide that they use.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>A couple things I see on your "not a DDR" coin:
The mint mark and design show the same doubling. As the mint mark is added after the die is sunk (and potentially doubled), seeing doubling on both is almost assuredly a sign of strike doubling.
The secondary image of the vertical part of the 2nd L in MONTICELLO is squashed into a different shape. For die doubling, both images would be well-formed, but one likely weaker. For strike doubling, the coin is struck once, and there is a slight shift in registration between the struck coin and die as the die contacts it a second time, flattening part of the design. Note that for incuse design elements, the effects are reversed, as the raised part of the die is squashed when hit a second time by the hub.
PCGS will not list minor doubled dies unless they are listed in the CPG (except for their exclusions) or other attribution guide that they use. >>
That doesn't make sense that the mint mark is struck differently. In fact, that would be an extra step for the mint mark? I think not.
Minting process
I recommend you do some research on the minting process, since it's obvious that you don't know what you are talking about.
The coin being shown is a true doubled die.
The coin you posted here is not a doubled die.
A doubled die is not a doubled die because of the strength of the doubling, but because the doubling appears on the coin since the die itself has the doubling from the die making process.
And what messydesk said is absolutely right. Until 1990, the mint marks were added to the die after the die was created. Thus, if the coin has a doubled die already, the mint mark will not be doubled... unless the mint mark is repunched.
Get it now?
<< <i>Very minor doubling and not worth any premium IMO. >>
Probably so.
Folks, there are ton's of DDO and DDR die varieties out there for every series of coins. Only those that are as obvious as a zit on your face ever get big publicity and command "constant" premium's.
I say constant because there is always a contingent of variety collector's that actually collect this stuff by die variety and those folks pay premiums when they come up for sale. However, once that niche of collectors has their coins, the market usually ends and future auctions suffer due to a lack of interest in the really minor stuff. Unless, of course, folks are looking for upgrades.
NOTE: This is not a bad thing, it's just the way things are.
As for Griv and his DDO dilemma, spend sime time wih another series like Kennedy's which has an abundance of DDO's and DDR's. They're easy to spot and very findable and also very ignored.
Well, except for a couple of us idiots.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Griv, The CherryPickers guide does a nice job of explaining the difference. As has already been said, the first coin is a doubled die, the second is double struck. Shag >>
I already agreed long ago about the second coin when I posted it in a different thread weeks ago. I'm just making a comparison to the first. So, what about the 3rd coin?
That split in the lower part of the S confirms it for me.
As for the other two photo's, they do look like strike doubling however, strike doubling CAN occur on a legitimate doubled die and make attributions all that more difficult via photograph.
If the other two photo's are of the same coin then you've got strike doubling mixed with an actual DDO.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>The only place I see doubling that I'll confirm is on the photo below:
That split in the lower part of the S confirms it for me.
As for the other two photo's, they do look like strike doubling however, strike doubling CAN occur on a legitimate doubled die and make attributions all that more difficult via photograph.
If the other two photo's are of the same coin then you've got strike doubling mixed with an actual DDO. >>
That tiny spot could be coin damage. How can a DDO be called on just one tiny spot?
Also, those "doublings" are shadows.
<< <i>
<< <i>The only place I see doubling that I'll confirm is on the photo below:
That split in the lower part of the S confirms it for me.
As for the other two photo's, they do look like strike doubling however, strike doubling CAN occur on a legitimate doubled die and make attributions all that more difficult via photograph.
If the other two photo's are of the same coin then you've got strike doubling mixed with an actual DDO. >>
That tiny spot could be coin damage. How can a DDO be called on just one tiny spot?
Also, those "doublings" are shadows. >>
sInce I do not have the coin in hand Griv, I can only point out what I see and what I see is a split serif on the S. The ange of the photo combined with the machine doubling makes everything else unidentifiable whereas better angles and photography could reveal the other doubling on the coin.
Doubling can be caused by several different factors and some of those factors can be limited to only a small portion of the coin. Specifically, consider the 2009 Formative Years DDR's for a simplistic view. There's also distorted hub doubling where only a small portion of the die gets affected due to some distortion on the hub during the die making process.
The name is LEE!
Franklin-Lover's Forum