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How about that Ichiro?
Tomi
Posts: 643 ✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
10 years in the majors and 200+ hits in every season. I know the home run hitters get all the attention, but this guy has done what no other player in history has done before. Ruth, Cobb, Gwynn, Williams, Carew, Boggs, etc. couldn't even do it. I can only imagine how many hits he would end up with if he started to play at 19 or 20 yrs. old.
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Contats Ichiro!
Dave
Sam
<< <i>10 years in the majors and 200+ hits in every season. I know the home run hitters get all the attention, but this guy has done what no other player in history has done before. Ruth, Cobb, Gwynn, Williams, Carew, Boggs, etc. couldn't even do it. I can only imagine how many hits he would end up with if he started to play at 19 or 20 yrs. old. >>
Comparing Ichiro to perhaps Cobb, Gwynn, Carew, and Boggs is ok being that they were all basically slap hitters, just trying
to get base hits.
Comparing Ichiro to Ruth and Williams, who both hit over 500 home runs is probably not a good idea.
Collect primarily 1959-1963 Topps Baseball
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<< <i>I was using Ruth and Williams as an example since they are regarded as the top 2 players ever and they couldn't even do what he did. >>
Ask Ichiro to hit as many home runs as Ruth and Williams, and he couldn't do what he did either.
<< <i>Ichiro is not as good as any of those ballplayers and to even mention his name in the same breath as Ruth or Williams or Cobb or even Boggs is an insult to truly great ballplayers.
While Ichiro may get in the HoF on the first ballot, as for talent alone, he is nowhere near deserving. >>
Don't think I would have added Boggs to your statement, that is just as far fetched as Ichiro in the same sentence as Ruth, Williams, Cobb.
You cannot deny his skill and talent.
First off..... You're crazy.
I'm a huge Boggs fan....and as for simply a batter he is better than Ichiro; but Ichiro is one of the best defensive right fielders ever---Torre and Cox have said this and I agree. Ichiro is going to steal over 500 bases in a little more than 60% of a career. He is going to get over 3000 hits in 60% of a career. This guy played like 8 years winning 7 batting titles in Japan.
I'm not the hugest fan of him not taking walks; but he is a producer on the field. He's on the worst offensive club in the bigs.
Sure fire 1st ballot HOF and a player we can all say "I wonder what if he played his whole career in the states."
You said overall player. Boggs was the greater hitter; but everything else Ichiro does much better. I'm not a huge Ichiro fan; but he is a great all around player. I do wish he had more patience at the plate.
Mickey71
Sure, the guy's got talent and I'll give him that. HOF? Sure. Count the Japan numbers too, I don't care.
But there's no way in hell that he's 75% of the hitter that either Teddy Ballgame or Rod Carew were. And if Williams hadn't had "prior engagements" for several seasons then maybe Ichiro wouldn't be alone with the 200 hits thing.
Dave
<< <i>If memory serves correct, did Ichiro start the season off on the DL with a bleeding ulcer? Or was that last season. How many total games has he played this season? >>
On the DL at the beginning of the '09 season. I believe he's played in every game this year.
<< <i>And if Williams hadn't had "prior engagements" for several seasons then maybe Ichiro wouldn't be alone with the 200 hits thing. >>
Except, ya know, that Ted never even had 200 hits in a season once.
Tabe
Ted never had 200 hits. Ichiro's stats make him a mofo. I am somewhat chastened.
Ichiro has some monster stats. I admit that. But in my gut he still reminds me of Willie Wilson's more successful brother. But I do give the guy a lot more credit than I did before I compared apples to apples. First ballot without the Japan stats; All Century with them. It pains me to type this but it's true.
And BTW, Saduharu Oh and Mister Hank Aaron have more class in their batting gloves than McGwire, Bonds, Sosa or ARoid have in all of their inflated HGH Clear Cream Flaxseed Hummers.
I was wrong about Ichiro. I admit it fully.
He reminds me of Pete Rose as far as hitting and style of play. He is a better OF than Rose, but Rose was really an infielder.
Too bad he is not on a team that can make it to the post season so more people can't see him play.
What! Ten consecutive 200+ hit seasons (longest streak EVER); broke Sisler's ALL TIME single season hit record of 257; Gold Glove every year he's put on a uniform....and you call him a 'good' player.
Your judgement is seriously out-of-whack. Man, you're on an island. Put down the cheap wine!
Dave
Dave
His total hit record and 10 years 200+ hits and the way he played the game speaks for itself.
And it's a travesty he is not in the HOF. Bud Selig should be the one banned from baseball!!!!!
<< <i>I can understand someone not liking Rose personally, but to say he is the most overrated player ever is wacked!
His total hit record and 10 years 200+ hits and the way he played the game speaks for itself.
And it's a travesty he is not in the HOF. Bud Selig should be the one banned from baseball!!!!! >>
A singles hitter who stops hitting for power 2/5th into his career who hits .303 for his career? That's pretty much the definition of a "very good" (at best) player. Given all the superlatives laid on Pete, calling him overrated is actually very easy and not unjustified.
Tabe
Rose does get more credit for his baseball value(compared to other players) than what his baseball value truly is(compared to same players)....that really is the definition of 'overrating' someone. How much one may never know, but he does.
Ted Williams never had a 200 hit season. And you know what? He had about 15 seasons where he failed to get 200 hits...and EVERY ONE OF THEM were better than any of the seasons where Ichiro DID get 200 hits.
So what does that tell you about using hit totals as the key measurement tool?
Ichiro is batting .332 for his career at home; .330 on the road. Across the board, his home/road stats are very similar. He is consistent, unlike Boggs, who benefitted tremendously by having the "Green Monster."
Edited to add: Boggs was an automatic 40+ doubles...while with Boston. Once he left the 'Sox, he never again reached 30 for a season. His double production followed a similar pattern as those of other Fenway benificiaries like Jody Reed and Fred Lynn. Fenway park is a hitters paradise, especially for lefties like Boggs and Lynn.
I dug a bit deepr and found that Boggs's career BA/SLG at Fenway are .369/.527. Elsewhere they are .306/.398. One can certainly argue Boggs' merits as an all-around player, but it is clear that his hitting benefitted greatly by playing at Fenway.
Ichiro's lifetime OPS+ is 117. This is through a similar age of when Boggs's was 139. Ichiro's career OPS+ will only get worse the longer he plays.
I do agree that Fenway probably helped him even a little more than what the park adjustment is saying.
Ichirio is simply not as good as a hitter as everyone thinks. A career OPS+ of 117 without having gone through old man years(or learning years) is not terribly impressive.
Where is Ichiro consistent? He has scattered some very mediocre hitting season through the prime years of his career...look at his yearly OPS+ results:
126
120
112
130
113
106
122
102
129
112
100 is a LEAGUE AVERAGE hitter. OPS+ of 140 or higher are HOF top tier type hitting seasons. He has ZERO of those...but keep harping on the hit totals, LOL.
Stop this ALL-Time nonsense too! Dwight Evans and Dave Parker had better arms than Ichiro in RF, and they were far superior at the plate...and they are on the outside looking in at the HOF.
Thank God Ichiro doesn't have great teammates to help carry him to titles and make him look even better than the already out of whack perception, otherwise we would hear the dumb arguments of World Series victories.
Oh, and there is a COST for not knowing how to take a walk, and having to swing at everything in order to be the best singles hitter in the league(and have a pitiful amount of doubles for a guy with his speed)....and that is making a lot of outs!
He has ranked in the top ten in the league in OUTS MADE, every year of his career, except two years!! That is why his high hit totals aren't as impressive as people think, and why his OPS+ is far more telling of how good a hitter he is(or isn't).
Ichiro's consistency is demonstrated in his career Home/Away performance at the plate:
.............G....GS...PA..... AB....R.......H.....2B..3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB ROE BAbip tOPS+
Home 794 791 3593 3310 525 1100 113 36 48 272 194 47 230 345 .332 .379 .432 .810 1429 23 23 20 10 69 42 .359 101
Away 791 778 3732 3456 521 1140 144 35 42 284 188 41 226 338 .330 .373 .428 .801 1480 23 24 7 19 86 56 .355 99
Note the similarty in every offensive category. My point is that Boggs, who's away-from-Fenway numbers PALE in comparison to his Fenway stats, is a product of his home park. Unlike Ichiro, whose OVERALL performance remains basically unchanged. Naturally, there will be variations from park to park, season to season.
As for Ichiro's mediocre years, remember that even Boggs had seasons of .302 and .259---WHILE WITH BOSTON! All players have their peaks and valleys.
To concede that Fenway 'probably helped Boggs a little more' is to understate the obvious. Fenway helped Boggs a great deal. On the other hand. Ichiro has derived no such advantage from playing in Seattle. His numbers are consistent across the board.
We can never know for certain, but had Boggs not played the majority of his career in Fenway Park, he likely would be remebered as a good hitter but not one of HOF calibre. His own performance says so.
The OPS+ already accounts for the effect of the stadium, and adds for Ichiro's.
It is quite possibly true that Boggs may have benefitted even more from Fenway than what the already instituted stadium effect is saying. Even with that added benefit, he still blows Ichiro out.
Also, keep in mind that when you are looking at Boggs's career FEnway total, please understand that he played all of his prime years at Fenway, so that is naturally going to make them look even higher because his old man years(where his percentages were dragged down), were played on another team.
However,
None of that discounts the facts about Ichiro and his lifetime OPS+ of 117, which is nothing special at all for a guy who has not experienced his old man years yet(nor experienced any growing pains years).
As mentioned above, his high hit totals are always mentioned, but people seem to forget the cost of those high hit totals and that he makes a lot of outs to achieve those singles, and doesn't produce any power to achieve those singles. The resulting effect is that a more accurate appraisal of his hitting ability(which accounts for these facts), is his OPS+.
Sitting at 117 for his career is nothing special, and the fact that he has not had single top ten finish in his league in OPS+ is screaming that he is nowhere near the hitter that many people are making him out to be(by virtue of his high hit total).
Actually, why is anyone doing any comparisons on overall players and using Boggs as an example???? Aw hell....Boggs is better than Mays, Clemente, Griffey and Aaron.
The guy made it sound like he was consistently great...based of course on all the 200 hit seasons. That of course is far from the truth.
That is not to say that Ichiro is better than Carew, Gwynn, Musial, Ruth, Williams, or anyone else. I simply appreciate him for what he is. He is a unique talent with a package of skills rarely seen in one player. He doesn't get 200 hits each year simply because he has lots of AB's. He averages over 220 hits per year because of that, though.
MLB history is filled with good hitters who racked up the AB's every year but couldn't produce with the consistency that Ichiro does. Guys like Nellie Fox, Willie Davis, Dave Cash, Jimmy Rollins (a very productive, yet very different type of hitter), Brett Butler, Brooks Robinson, Willie Wilson, and so on. I am not drawing direct comparisons to any of these players. I am pointing out what a unique talent Suzuki is. He is hard to categorize. If you simply wish to label him a singles hitter who rarely walks, then he is the best darn such hitter the game has ever seen.
He doesn't walk much nor hit for power, so his OPS will obviously be less than impressive. That doesn't diminish his unique abilties as a hitter and complete player. Adam Dunn walks a lot and hits for power, giving him impressive ( I guess, though I must admit that I don't look closely at the stat.) OPS numbers. Still, how dependable is he or others of his type on any given AB? It's the ol' "feast or famine" thing. You'll never be able to feast on Ichiro's offense, but you won't starve, either. He is a nibbler who keeps on biting.
It's that "keeps on" part that earns my admiration. I appreciate him for what he is, and will not disparage his accomplishments because of what he is not.
How many runs a hitter creates is all that counts....but I am not talking about the stats of runs scored or RBI.
There are non power hitters who can create runs at an elite leve like a Carew or a Boggs. If Carew creates 50 runs above an average hitter via mainly singles, doubles, triples, and not making a lot of outs...and Reggie Jackson creates 50 runs above an average hitter via mainly walks, and Home Runs, then they are of equal value as a batter. They simply took different avenues to the same destination....avenues of equal efficiency. Different, but equal.
Ichiro takes the 'traffic jam' avenue compared to the elite hitters, different, and NOT equal... yet he gets the acclaim of an elite hitter.
Ymeara, do you consider making an out a "feast" or a "famine"?
How did Carew and Boggs create runs at an elite level? Carew reached the 100 mark for runs scored and RBI only one time in his career, and both came in the same season. Boggs scored 100 something like 7-straight, but never reached even 90 RBI. Neither was a run producer, let alone an elite one. Boggs' numbers are so skewed because of Fenway Park and all the big hitters surrounding him that they must be viewed with a certain amount of skepticism. Ichiro scored 100+ 8 straight and has never even approached 90 RBI. Yet none of these hitters are run producers. They are table setters. If Suzuki were part of a lineup as potent as those that Boggs had, his numbers would be greater in all categories. Let me state here and now that I realize Suzuki is not even among the top table setters.
An out, per se, is neither a feast nor a famine. The "feast or famine" tag does not apply to a hitter of Suzuki's type, as I'm sure you know. Any hitter who bats leadoff for 160+ games is going to be among the leaders in outs made. That is simply the nature of the game. If Ichiro were to walk 100+ times or bat .400, the outs would be reduced. Clearly, neither of those will ever happen. Still, it does not take away from his ability as a hitter, or his accomplishments. No one ever said he was Rickey Henderson...or Tim Raines...or Jimmy Foxx.
Let me take you back to the OP in this thread. He simply stated a fact that Ichiro accomplished something that no one else had ever done, and used some big names to illustrate the unusual nature of the feat. There was no comparison made to any of those players, nor do I believe that they were mentioned to somehow diminish their respective statures as hitters.
It's all true what you say: That Ichiro is not a great run producer, nor does he have an impressive OPS+; and, yes, he mainly hits singles. All I'm saying is that I appreciate him for what he is. An outstanding (not elite like Williams, Ruth, Mays, Pujols, et al) hitter who is very consistent, a terrific fielder with a fine arm, and a demon as a base stealer (anually around an 80% success rate). None of the other "shortcomings" can take away from that. He is and has always been an exciting, productive player. Well above average and an absolute HOF lock.
I'll admit that I'm frustrated by many of the comments meant to belittle Suzuki's productivity and performance. Not necessarily in this tread, but such comments enter the discussion seemingly whenever he's mentioned. It's like showing a lack of respect or appreciation for Hank Aaron's HR total because he played so much. Hank never hit 50 and didn't hit homers with the frequency of Ruth, Mays, Killebrew, McCovey and many others. But so what? What he did stands on it's own. Just as Suzuki's annual 200 hits and .300 plus batting average. No matter how much more impressive other players' statistics may be, they still don't diminish those of Ichiro. He is not the perfect hitter, nor the ideal leadoff hitter, nor the greatest hitter of his time. He is still one of the very best we've seen and I will give him his due.
I wonder how many general managers or managers would consider 224 hits, a .330 average, 100 runs scored, and 38 steals each year from their leadoff hitter "trivial." My guess would be none.
<< <i>ymarea,
For the record, I stated that Dunn was obviously and "easy target", not that you obviously picked him. I wouldn't dare assume such a thing and agree it would be brash to do so.
I was not saying that Ichiro's ability or accomplishments were trivial but referring to a statement of trying to define him in such a specific detailed way (which you seem to have edited so I can't recall the exact "trivial" phrase. >>
We are having such a good discussion, why do you throw in lines like "...which you seem to have editied?" That implies that I've changed my post after the fact. I sometimes make additions, but preface them with "edited to add." The only other edits I may make are strictly to correct spelling to save me from inexorable mortification.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
There is nothing wrong or bad about appreciating Ichiro's skill set.
As for your question about how do you quantify...it is broken down with every single play in MLB since 1960. No need to guess. Runs and RBI are teammate dependant, thus no need to use them when comparing individuals.
An OUT MADE is indeed famine...that is the worst outcome for a batter(GIDP is even worse of course). If that isn't famine, then what is? A home run is the feast for the batter. In between are varying levels of famine and feasting. When adding up the ledger of all the events, you get to the value of a hitter. OPS+ is a pretty good measurement of that. The play by play analysis is a spot on measruement.
Willie Wilson has also done things that the greats have not done, and if someone were to appreciate him, that is fine too. But it is indeed foolish to mention Wilson's feats and then in the following sentence say that none of the all time greats were able to do that. Wilson, or Ichiro have no business in any way shape or form to even be mentioned with those hitters, in any context.
Rich Dauer had a higher contact rate than Mays, Mantle, Ruth, and Gehrig. Not as impressive as what Ichiro did, but still something that the greats didn't do either. So both Dauer and Ichiro have done something the greats didn't do, and neither one of them really mean anyhthing other than what their total value as a batter does, so they are sort of trivial.
If someone wants to go on and on about Dauer having a higher contact rate than Mickey Mantle, there is nothing wrong than that...but it doesn't mean much more than walking around saying today is Saturday.
Great, Ichiro had a string of 200 hit seasons, today is Saturday, tomorrow is Sunday, and despite those facts, he still isn't as good a hitter as Adam Dunn
An out is not the worst possible outcome of a plate appearance. Everything is situational. An out that moves runners along or scores a runner is better than one that doesn't. A one-out FC that scores a man from third is more desirable than a walk that places runners at the corners...at least in most instances.
Runs and RBI are teammate-dependant, but how can we discount them altogether? OPS is a nice indicator of a hitter's ability, but it does not necessarily equate to run procuction. Theorectically, a hitter can play an entire season and amass an OBP of 1.000, a SLG% of 3.000, and still not score nor drive in a single run. Unless one can accurately demonstrate and quantify runs produced without including Runs and RBI, the surest way is R+RBI-HR. Using this basic formula, Adam Dunn has produced .96 runs/game over his career, while Ichiro has produced .95. Considering that Dunn bats in the middle of the order and Ichiro bats leadoff, I say that Ichiro is the superior run producer and a far better hitter than Dunn.
As a matter of opinion, I say that Ichiro does merit mention among the all-time greats. You say absolutely not, and that is ok. I ask only that you keep in mind that I'm not saying he is as good as those immortals (Gehrig, Ruth, Mays, Musial, and the like). Until I introduced Dunn into the conversation, the only player to whom I made a direct comparison was Boggs, and that was in response to someone who already did so.
I also contend that Ichiro is not overrated. I say the opposite is true. Clearly, those who say he is the best hitter ever or even the equivalent of those immortals would be overrating him. However, I have never heard nor read about Ichiro being described in such terms. Playing in Seattle, he often goes unnoticed altogether. More often, however, his hitting feats are made to look less significant through statistical analysis. A man who accumulates nearly 2300 hits in only 10 seasons, as well as many other impressive feats, deserves to be recognized as an exceptional player. At least in my opinion.
Edited to correclty spell "Saberman." How about that, the very first word of my post and I couldn't get it right.
You are right, everything is situational, and that is EXACTLY what the play by play data shows, and Ichiro is lacking. IT takes all those examples you give, but give them their proper weight on the outcome of runs, and wins.
Let me start at square one with this whole Runs/RBI thing.
If we both hit 50 doubles with two out in the ninth inning in a tie game, with nobody on(and everything else we did in the game was exactly equal), we have produced equally.
We are both on the ledger for 50 doubles.
However, in my case, the batter behind me got a hit that scored me 50 times, winning us the game.
In YOUR case, the batter made an out all 50 of those times, stranding you at second.
So now we are both on the ledger for:
Doubles
Me 50
You 50
Runs Scored
Me 50
You 0
Which of those two measurements(runs or doubles), is a more accurate assessment on OUR contribution to the game and our value as a hitter?? Which is a measurement is a more accurate assessment on the value of our TEAM?
This stuff is done for each play in MLB, so the stuff you say is not going to bring Ichiro any higher than what his OPS+ is saying.
This exercise is ALREADY DONE for each and EVERY Play for each player in MLB, it covers all that. You will see that Ichiro has produced a LOT of famine!
No need for you to say, well what about htis example...because any example you bring up is ALREADY MEASURED in the play by play data, or 24 possible base/out situations.
P.S. I find it extremely laughable that you use that R+RBI formula, find out that Dunn is ahead of Ichiro, and STILL proclaim Ichiro the better hitter because you all of a sudden recognize that there are other factors out of a players control in Runs and RBI!! Sir, lineup position is only one of the factors. There are other factors too, and when all accounted for, it makes that method worthless(as you already realize).
Also, on one hand you say you only bring this stuff up to admire Ichiro's trivial skills....but on the other you indeed try to knock better players down some pegs, and pump Ichiro up with falseshoods.
Average 0.331 0.328 0.338 0.328 0.303 .340 0.366
OPB 0.373 0.415 0.388 0.393 0.375 0.379 0.433
Slugging 0.430 0.443 0.459 0.429 0.409 0.468 0.512
OPS 0.806 0.858 0.847 0.822 0.784 0.847 0.945
Total Bases 297 270 259 262 262 305 313
Hits 229 200 209 200 194 222 224
Doubles 26 38 36 29 34 34 39
Triples 7 4 6 7 6 13 16
Home Runs 9 8 9 6 7 8 6
RBIs 57 67 76 67 60 93 103
Runs 107 100 92 93 98 101 120
Stolen Bases 39 2 21 23 9 30 48
Walks 47 94 52 67 71 37 67
Plate Appearances 749 713 679 692 721 711 698
Gold Gloves 9 2 5 0 2 N/A N/A
Rookie of Year Yes No No Yes Yes N/A N/A
MVPs 1 0 0 1 1 1 1
All Stars 10 12 15 18 17 N/A N/A
Batting Titles 2 6 8 7 3 2 11
Silver Sluggers 3 8 7 N/A N/A N/A N/A
World Series Rings 0 1 0 0 3 0 0
Black Ink 40 37 57 42 64 29 150
Gray Ink 129 138 155 148 239 198 417
HOF Standards 36 58 54 55 55 44 75
I'd rank these players in this order:
1. Ty Cobb --- not even close
2. Tony Gwynn
3. Ichiro
4. Boggs/Carew (tie)
6. Sisler
7. Rose
Erik
<< <i>Ymeara,
You are right, everything is situational, and that is EXACTLY what the play by play data shows, and Ichiro is lacking. IT takes all those examples you give, but give them their proper weight on the outcome of runs, and wins.
Let me start at square one with this whole Runs/RBI thing.
If we both hit 50 doubles with two out in the ninth inning in a tie game, with nobody on(and everything else we did in the game was exactly equal), we have produced equally.
We are both on the ledger for 50 doubles.
However, in my case, the batter behind me got a hit that scored me 50 times, winning us the game.
In YOUR case, the batter made an out all 50 of those times, stranding you at second.
So now we are both on the ledger for:
Doubles
Me 50
You 50
Runs Scored
Me 50
You 0
Which of those two measurements(runs or doubles), is a more accurate assessment on OUR contribution to the game and our value as a hitter?? Which is a measurement is a more accurate assessment on the value of our TEAM?
This stuff is done for each play in MLB, so the stuff you say is not going to bring Ichiro any higher than what his OPS+ is saying.
This exercise is ALREADY DONE for each and EVERY Play for each player in MLB, it covers all that. You will see that Ichiro has produced a LOT of famine!
No need for you to say, well what about htis example...because any example you bring up is ALREADY MEASURED in the play by play data, or 24 possible base/out situations.
P.S. I find it extremely laughable that you use that R+RBI formula, find out that Dunn is ahead of Ichiro, and STILL proclaim Ichiro the better hitter because you all of a sudden recognize that there are other factors out of a players control in Runs and RBI!! Sir, lineup position is only one of the factors. There are other factors too, and when all accounted for, it makes that method worthless(as you already realize).
Also, on one hand you say you only bring this stuff up to admire Ichiro's trivial skills....but on the other you indeed try to knock better players down some pegs, and pump Ichiro up with falseshoods. >>
Saberman,
There is so much objectionable about this post. To add a post script filled with incendiary statements like "extremely laughable" and "...all of a sudden you recognize..." and the final sentence that uses the word "trivial" in such a way that could lead the reader to believe that I used it. That is your word, not mine. I contend that Ichiro's skills are not trivial, but exceptional. Also you described as "laughable" the formua I used to quantify run production, yet posted the wrong formula. Never did I say R+RBI equal run production.
Such techniques deflect from the topic and add nothing to further your own point.
Now I must return to the topic of run production, since you claim that is the true measure of a player's value as a hitter. You continually use OPS+ to illustrate the point, yet OPS has nothing whatsoever to do run production. Neither OBP nor SLG take into account runs, rbi, avg with runners on, avg with runner in scoring position, or any other situation. It is merely the sum total of a player's OBP and SLG, with OPS+ adjusted for a hitter's ballbark.
There is no arguing that Ichiro makes a LOT of outs. He bats leadoff and plays every game, so that is a given. He doesn't walk much nor hit for power, so his OPS will not be impressive. Still, that doesn't mean his other contributions are trivial.
Ichiro's lifetime batting average is .331. As trivial as that may seem, he is also batting .333 with runners on base, .336 with runners in scoring position, .347 with runners in scoring position and 2 out, .427 with bases loaded, .335 men on and 2 out, and .326 with 2 outs. These facts speak directly to his ability as a hitter when there are runs to be scored. He not only is the model of consistency, he is the model of consistent excellence. Check the same statistics for Adam Dunn, whom I am not trying to "knock down some pegs" and see how he fares in the same situations. Then tell me that he is the better player.
Such "trivial" skills, which also include a career 81% SB success rate and 9 Gold Gloves in 9 seasons, would be the envy of most Major League Players.
Edited for spelling. Many spelling errors.
It is laughable to recognize a variable when it suits your need, but not when it doesn't.
All those situational stats you post for Ichiro are accounted for...and in greater detail with situational batter runs, or using all the 24 base/out situations. The results of those are much more detailed than that of OPS+, and inlcude all the stuff you seek(and more). It is more detailed. But, OPS+ shows the same results, and thus is a more easy and quick way to get to the same conclusion....Ichiro is not nearly as good a hitter as you believe.
Let me start at square one with this whole Runs/RBI thing.
If we both hit 50 doubles with two out in the ninth inning in a tie game, with nobody on(and everything else we did in the game was exactly equal), we have produced equally.
We are both on the ledger for 50 doubles.
However, in my case, the batter behind me got a hit that scored me 50 times, winning us the game.
In YOUR case, the batter made an out all 50 of those times, stranding you at second.
So now we are both on the ledger for:
Doubles
Me 50
You 50
Runs Scored
Me 50
You 0
Which of those two measurements(runs or doubles), is a more accurate assessment on OUR contribution to the game and our value as a hitter?? Which is a measurement is a more accurate assessment on the value of our TEAM?
If this basic logic is not understood here, then no sense continuing on other(some more complex).
Now you have a guy putting Ichiro above Rod Carew...just what I mean, overrated.
I'm not going to try and convince people anymore...peace.