<< <i>I spoke to Laura, she said those are not spots. They are pieces of zinc that were left on the dies. The coin was intentionally struck by a Mint employee. She said Andy and her both feel the coin should grade 65.
Pretty wild if stuff. I never thought I'd be excited about seeing a penny, can't wait for FUN. >>
That's pretty cool. Hard to tell from a photo, but that coin sure looks MS65 to me. It will be exciting to see it in-hand.
Edited to add: CONGRATULATIONS to the Skrabalaks as well! Could not happen to better people.
Impatient Wanted it REALLY badly Has/had too much money Wanted to complete a unique set Wanted to set a record for the highest price paid for a Copper coin (and then some!) A shark in a pool of carp and minnows Wants to impress a Girlfriend (or other person)! >>
You neglected to mention, "Mistakenly thinks this is a more important coin than it really is" >>
When you grow up dreaming about finding a 43 copper cent - is there really such a thing as thinking this coin is more important than it is? Just like Cardinal's dream was to own the Carter 1794 dollar - is that coin really the most important coin? Bottom line is that what makes ANY coin important is within each of us. It's not to be determined by you or I - but rather by the buyer and seller. Of course, with that said I'd have to agree that it wouldn't break $1M on a resale. But $500k is way too low a number these days. >>
Coins have relative importance. My Eliasberg proof trime is more important than your 2009 cent. Your former 1885 trade dollar is more important than my Eliasberg trime. Fitting this 1943-D cent into a general hierarchy of coin importance, it's far less important than many coins selling for far less money. I'm sure there's honest disagreement over exactly where the coin fits in that hierarchy; however, we all seem to recognize stupid money was paid for it.
Kindly define 'stupid money'. More money than you or I think its worth doesn't make it stupid. I thought $7.6M too much for a certain coin, the buyer didn't - that doesn't make him stupid. What if there's no opportunity cost. What if that's the only way to fulfill a dream?
Kindly be slightly less judgmental in your terms. 'All the money' shows much more respect while conveying your meaning just as well.
My understanding is there were multiple offers of $1M+ for the coin and all were rejected. See how a little additional information shines a new light on the subject?
As far as importance goes, many numismatists would place a copper 43 in the top 10 of American coins by importance. With the top 5 all exceeding $3-5M, who is to say $1.5M+ isn't appropriate for a unique mintmarked specimen?
And for that matter - how often does the opportunity to do something that's never been done before come along in numismatics? I did it when I completed the only uncirculated seated dollar set ever built. And I overpaid along the way. But I made money - because the result was so desirable. Who is to say that the buyer doesn't come out ahead from the creation of a unique and desireable set?
<< <i>Kindly be slightly less judgmental in your terms. 'All the money' shows much more respect while conveying your meaning just as well. >>
My choice of term was deliberately derisive. Stupid money means multiples of market value, as in buried for years. All the money merely means full retail.
<< <i>Kindly be slightly less judgmental in your terms. 'All the money' shows much more respect while conveying your meaning just as well. >>
My choice of term was deliberately derisive. Stupid money means multiples of market value, as in buried for years. All the money merely means full retail. >>
I wonder what this coin would bring if the own had to sell it at the next major auction.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>And to think...he could have used the money to buy 15,454 1964D Peace Dollars!
>>
If this is a dig at Dan Carr, he said there would be 2000 or less produced and many of these have already been sold to collectors who are very happy with their purchase.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>The 1943-D bronze cent is the most valuable cent in the world. >>
Aren't there a few high grade 1793 chain and wreath cents that are high end SP/MS? These coins would be worth far more money in my opinion.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Kindly define 'stupid money'. More money than you or I think its worth doesn't make it stupid. I thought $7.6M too much for a certain coin, the buyer didn't - that doesn't make him stupid. What if there's no opportunity cost. What if that's the only way to fulfill a dream?
Kindly be slightly less judgmental in your terms. 'All the money' shows much more respect while conveying your meaning just as well.
My understanding is there were multiple offers of $1M+ for the coin and all were rejected. See how a little additional information shines a new light on the subject? >>
It's only stupid money if he could have bought an identical coin somewhere else for much less. If he's happy with the deal and the seller is happy, then that's a good deal. Whether it's alot of money is relative. It may not be a lot to him. If he has $20 Billion to play with, then $1.7 million is comparatively like a penny in the pockets of many people.
Also, when I see phrases like "he has/had too much money" I wonder who exactly decides how much is too much? And what do they plan on doing about it? Those are scary thoughts.
There is plenty to go around and when one has a lot, that doesn't mean someone else is missing out because of it. Seeing great prosperity should be inspirational. It reminds me of what's possible.
Sorry. Off my soapbox.
I think it's ultra-cool someone was able to put together the complete 6-coin off-metal set!
What will this coin be worth if a second example is discovered? Not likely but not impossible either. If I owned this coin, this would be always be in the back of my mind.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>The anonymous collector who formerly owned the coin “donated it to a charitable organization so they could sell it with all of the proceeds going to the charity,” according to Andy Skrabalak of Angel Dee’s Coins and Collectibles in Woodbridge, Virginia who acted as agent on behalf of the former owner. >>
Does anyone know if the purchase was set up as a tax deductible charity donation?
<< <i>Kindly be slightly less judgmental in your terms. 'All the money' shows much more respect while conveying your meaning just as well. >>
My choice of term was deliberately derisive. Stupid money means multiples of market value, as in buried for years. All the money merely means full retail. >>
Then you have shown yourself to have no idea as to the true market value of the coin, because the multiple paid is less than 2. Like I said, there were other independent offers of $1M made for the coin.
<< <i>I collect Morgans and think this transaction was great. It shows strength in the market. Really rich people just do not throw good money away.
There is nothing to be jealous about. This sale helps all of us. >>
This supports the position I've always taken in the coin world. Most coin collectors know from this hobby comes education and enjoyment, which leads to the greatest wealth of all. So with that said, I select DaveE's post as one of the better posts I've read in good while.
<< <i>But one must remember this new wealthy buyer didn't make his money from investing in (coins) ahem or collecting coins, although whether this coin could be viewed as a bad investment ahem bad purchase to fill a very big hole will be determined in the future if and when he goes to sell.
Now I am still waiting for one of the more learned members to explain to me how the valuation of this coin was determined other than saying there were other offer(s) which is equivalent to hearsay imho, nothing wrong with but doesn't prove the value in any way.
Note, I have purchased some pricey coins for my budget and sometimes paid what I thought were pretty ridiculous amounts but still the valuation still had some basis behind it like a previous sale or comparable sale to extrapolate from, just trying to understand this transaction thats all, a littel help would be appreciated. >>
The value was determined by the seller and the buyer. The seller didn't want to sell to multiple buyers at $1M, so the value must be higher. The seller did sell at $1.7M to a single buyer, so the value to everyone else must be lower. The true value is greater than $1M but less than or equal to $1.7M by definition.
When dealing with unique items, the only way to determine value is to compare it to a comparable item that has transacted recently [1870-S half dime??] or to simply agree upon a price that both parties can live with.
<< <i>The value was determined by the seller and the buyer. The seller didn't want to sell to multiple buyers at $1M, so the value must be higher. The seller did sell at $1.7M to a single buyer, so the value to everyone else must be lower. The true value is greater than $1M but less than or equal to $1.7M by definition.
When dealing with unique items, the only way to determine value is to compare it to a comparable item that has transacted recently [1870-S half dime??] or to simply agree upon a price that both parties can live with. >>
What TDN said. Plus, if the buyer's goal was to complete the 6-piece 1943 Bronze / 1944 Steel cent set, he had to pay the price for the unique 1943-D bronze, and for the semi-unique 1944-S steel (in MS-66!) If I recall correctly, when the 1944-S steel sold for $373,750 in July, 2008, a lot of people believed that was way too much money for that coin. In view of the sale of the 1943-D bronze and the multiple offers over $1 million, the price of the 1944-S steel doesn't look too bad now in retrospect.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
When I first got into trade dollars, I paid 'too much money' for the top pops and look what I built. When I moved into classic rarities, for a while I paid 'too much money' and I sure wish I still had them at the levels I was buying them at then. Then others came along and paid 'too much money' for them on top of me and I could no longer play, so I moved on to the seated dollar set - where I paid 'too much money' to complete something that had never been done before.
So I've been there and I've done that and while it may be no fun at all to give Jay Parrino a $500k profit on the Eliasberg 1885 trade dollar after only a year [too much money yet again], just a few years later it was traded in on the 1913 Liberty Head nickel at $3M+. Sometimes you just gotta tip your cap to the dorkster and acknowledge that he's right when he says if you love something, if you really love it, then price doesn't matter.
Maybe the buyer is buried in it, maybe not. You can't say for sure until they sell.
IIRC someone took a bath on the 1870-S half dime at one point (Martin Paul I think it was). So automatically buying something very rare is not a gimme.
You tend to hear about the winners a lot more than the losers.
Regardless of the cost it is an UBER TRES COOL set and I am looking forward to seeing it.
Realone, this kinds of coins are certainly not in my expertise. I do note from TDN's previous comments that the 1804 $10 PF65 coin was available on the market for around $500K a relatively short time ago. Then almost instantly someone (a buyer and a seller) decided it was worth $5 MILL. Another example of the 8X club.
But I would like clarification on TDN's comments about there being a number of underbidders at $1 MILL on this coin. But back on page 1 he stated that upon resale it would not fetch $1 MILL. Does that mean all those underbidders would have cold feet the next time this popped up for sale? They want it for $1 MILL knowing there's a buyer at a higher level, but they don't want it at even $1 MILL if that higher buyer goes away?
<< <i>Realone, this kinds of coins are certainly not in my expertise. I do note from TDN's previous comments that the 1804 $10 PF65 coin was available on the market for around $500K a relatively short time ago. Then almost instantly someone (a buyer and a seller) decided it was worth $5 MILL. Another example of the 8X club.
But I would like clarification on TDN's comments about there being a number of underbidders at $1 MILL on this coin. But back on page 1 he stated that upon resale it would not fetch $1 MILL. Does that mean all those underbidders would have cold feet the next time this popped up for sale? They want it for $1 MILL knowing there's a buyer at a higher level, but they don't want it at even $1 MILL if that higher buyer goes away?
Thanks for clearing that up. We're back to over $1 MILLION!
As far as Martin Paul taking a bath on the 70-s half dime at one time, could be true. I believe he was big into seated half dimes and the allure of such a coin might have been hard to resist.
<< <i>Kindly be slightly less judgmental in your terms. 'All the money' shows much more respect while conveying your meaning just as well. >>
My choice of term was deliberately derisive. Stupid money means multiples of market value, as in buried for years. All the money merely means full retail. >>
Then you have shown yourself to have no idea as to the true market value of the coin, because the multiple paid is less than 2. Like I said, there were other independent offers of $1M made for the coin. >>
That's a $700K burial even if those "greater fool" offers are still pending.
I get that you're partnered with Legend and therefore have a vested interest in making this sale seem reasonable. I don't happen to see it that way though.
Assets ultimately revert to their true value. This off metal strike will eventually revert to its true value, and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars.
<< <i>...and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars. >>
You can believe whatever you please. But those who offered $1 million obviously disagree with you, and were willing to put their money where there mouths/beliefs were.
<< <i>I get that you're partnered with Legend and therefore have a vested interest in making this sale seem reasonable. I don't happen to see it that way though.
Assets ultimately revert to their true value. This off metal strike will eventually revert to its true value, and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars. >>
Agree. People forget that it's a mint error and not a necessary part of a Lincoln cent collection. The Lincoln cent struck in gold ($2 1/2 gold planchet) is a far more desirable error IMO.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>...and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars. >>
You can believe whatever you please. But those who offered $1 million obviously disagree with you, and were willing to put their money where there mouths/beliefs were. >>
So what. Every burial at auction also has at least one underbidder, assuming the coin didn't sell for the minimum bid or reserve.
<< <i>...and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars. >>
You can believe whatever you please. But those who offered $1 million obviously disagree with you, and were willing to put their money where there mouths/beliefs were. >>
So what. Every burial at auction also has at least one underbidder, assuming the coin didn't sell for the minimum bid or reserve. >>
So, if you believe the value is nowhere near $1m, but 1) more than one person offered that or more and 2) yet another person paid $1.7, what possibly could make you wrong? Would an additional five $1M offers make a difference? Ten? What would it take?
When you need one last coin to complete a set, and all of the other coins in the set are extremely rare and very expensive, and that one last coin is itself unique, and the owner paid a substantial sum for it and is apparently not in dire need of money, and th owner has figure out that you really really want it, it is going to take a very large sum indeed to procure it.
And while it is true that off-metal 1943 and 1944 coins are not part of the regular Lincoln set, they have long been items of particular interest. Just as Stellars command prices beyond patterns of lesser fame but greater rarity because collectors fancy Stellars. A couple of years ago a PR 64 Cam Stellar was being offered for $1.5 million. Is it worth that price or is that “stupid” money? Depends on how much you want to own it and how much money you have to spend.
A year or so ago someone paid $1 million or thereabout for a reeded edge Wreath Cent in rather ragged condition. That was more than the price paid for the finest known and rarer and more famous Strawberry Cent. I do not understand why, but that is of no real importance.
<< <i>...and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars. >>
You can believe whatever you please. But those who offered $1 million obviously disagree with you, and were willing to put their money where there mouths/beliefs were. >>
So what. Every burial at auction also has at least one underbidder, assuming the coin didn't sell for the minimum bid or reserve. >>
So, if you believe the value is nowhere near $1m, but 1) more than one person offered that or more and 2) yet another person paid $1.7, what possibly could make you wrong? Would an additional five $1M offers make a difference? Ten? What would it take? >>
It would take a consistent history of sales, not just one outlier sale.
<< <i>I get that you're partnered with Legend and therefore have a vested interest in making this sale seem reasonable. I don't happen to see it that way though.
Assets ultimately revert to their true value. This off metal strike will eventually revert to its true value, and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars. >>
Agree. People forget that it's a mint error and not a necessary part of a Lincoln cent collection. The Lincoln cent struck in gold ($2 1/2 gold planchet) is a far more desirable error IMO. >>
No Lincoln cents were ever intended to be struck on gold planchets. Obviously this was a very out of the norm type of error. It can't really be considered a part of the lincoln set.
Lincoln cents were intended to be struck on copper planchets and anyone not familiar with the steel cents of 1943 might think this was just normal for the date. It was most probably a planchet made to be struck by Lincoln cent dies and it was.
Whether this makes it part of the set or not is an individual decision but some will believe it's a legitimate part of the complete Lincoln set. Many of us grew up looking for these coins and a few were found from the other mints.
I find it interesting that the newest coin worth a million dollars just keeps getting more and more modern. First it was 1913 then 1933. Now it's 1943.
<< <i>...and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars. >>
You can believe whatever you please. But those who offered $1 million obviously disagree with you, and were willing to put their money where there mouths/beliefs were. >>
So what. Every burial at auction also has at least one underbidder, assuming the coin didn't sell for the minimum bid or reserve. >>
So, if you believe the value is nowhere near $1m, but 1) more than one person offered that or more and 2) yet another person paid $1.7, what possibly could make you wrong? Would an additional five $1M offers make a difference? Ten? What would it take? >>
It would take a consistent history of sales, not just one outlier sale. >>
That would be great, but unfortunately, such a history isn't available for certain coins. And the fact that it's not, doesn't necessarily make the (seemingly crazy) bidders "wrong".
<< <i>...and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars. >>
You can believe whatever you please. But those who offered $1 million obviously disagree with you, and were willing to put their money where there mouths/beliefs were. >>
So what. Every burial at auction also has at least one underbidder, assuming the coin didn't sell for the minimum bid or reserve. >>
So, if you believe the value is nowhere near $1m, but 1) more than one person offered that or more and 2) yet another person paid $1.7, what possibly could make you wrong? Would an additional five $1M offers make a difference? Ten? What would it take? >>
It would take a consistent history of sales, not just one outlier sale. >>
That would be great, but unfortunately, such a history isn't available for certain coins. And the fact that it's not, doesn't necessarily make the (seemingly crazy) bidders "wrong". >>
<< <i>When you need one last coin to complete a set, and all of the other coins in the set are extremely rare and very expensive, and that one last coin is itself unique, and the owner paid a substantial sum for it and is apparently not in dire need of money, and th owner has figure out that you really really want it, it is going to take a very large sum indeed to procure it.
And while it is true that off-metal 1943 and 1944 coins are not part of the regular Lincoln set, they have long been items of particular interest. Just as Stellars command prices beyond patterns of lesser fame but greater rarity because collectors fancy Stellars. A couple of years ago a PR 64 Cam Stellar was being offered for $1.5 million. Is it worth that price or is that “stupid” money? Depends on how much you want to own it and how much money you have to spend.
A year or so ago someone paid $1 million or thereabout for a reeded edge Wreath Cent in rather ragged condition. That was more than the price paid for the finest known and rarer and more famous Strawberry Cent. I do not understand why, but that is of no real importance.
<< <i>...and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars. >>
You can believe whatever you please. But those who offered $1 million obviously disagree with you, and were willing to put their money where there mouths/beliefs were. >>
So what. Every burial at auction also has at least one underbidder, assuming the coin didn't sell for the minimum bid or reserve. >>
So, if you believe the value is nowhere near $1m, but 1) more than one person offered that or more and 2) yet another person paid $1.7, what possibly could make you wrong? Would an additional five $1M offers make a difference? Ten? What would it take? >>
It would take a consistent history of sales, not just one outlier sale. >>
That's not possible with unique items. You are looking at this as a copper cent - not as a unique 43-D that is also the finest known copper cent. It's head and shoulders above any other 43 copper. I've spent my numismatic lifetime figuring the values of ultra rarities and significant coins. Although I don't figure this coin at $1.7M, it is indeed worth significantly more than you are giving it credit for and the difference is just what it took to pry it out of very strong hands into very strong hands. Most of us just shake our heads when a piece of art changes hands privately - this is merely the same sort of thing.
As far as being a partner in Legend and therefore having to justify the price - no, I don't. The buyer said go fetch and I don't give a rat's ass if he's buried or not. He's a big boy and capable of making his own financial decisions on how much to overpay for things. What bothers me is your judgemental and dismissive attitude that something is stupid money instead of appreciation for what's been built. Bottom line is that when you are building unique sets, you ALWAYS have to overpay. I know it's true because I've been there and done that. And it has NOTHING to do with other Lincoln cents - the owner likes copper 43 cents because he found one in circulation as a child [wasn't real].
It's a mystery to me why people can't just be happy someone bought "their coin of a lifetime" not knowing the purchaser's circumstances. It didn't cost anyone here anything, and none of my tax dollars went toward it. I'm just happy for the guy. There are several coins that I wish I could figure out how to buy without sacrificing money for business purposes, personal savings, or current lifestyle expenses. If the buyer did that, then kudos to him, regardless of what he paid.
All errors are unique (I'm not talking about varieties where there are multiples), but this one is considerably more special than others. While I agree with RWB that the 1942 pattern is more interesting to me on a personal level, it lacks a kinship to regular business strikes that lessens its desirability to a certain type of collector. As far as pricing? The value is what a reasonably prudent seller not under duress would sell it for, and a reasonably prudent buyer would pay for it -- plain and simple.
For many of us growing up in the 50's/60's (ouch) a 1943 copper 1C was probably the equivalent of Max Mehl's search for a 1913 5C. We always thought itwas was worth a fortune.
We remember coins like that from our youth. I do not like pennies, but I admit, I too fantasized about finding one.
I'd be shocked if the majority of people here haven't checked many times in their lives to see if they found one.
What the critics here seem to be missing is the charity aspect of the whole deal. The new owner is no fool - he doesn't value the coin at $1.7M. But if, as an extremely wealthy individual, you ALREADY make sizeable charitable donations and someone who has something you want badly is willing to sell you something at too high of a price so a Childrens Wing can be built on a hospital - what do you do? You move money from pot A to pot B, buy the coin, ensure the hospital wing is built and feel rather good about yourself.
"What the critics here seem to be missing is the charity aspect of the whole deal. The new owner is no fool - he doesn't value the coin at $1.7M. But if, as an extremely wealthy individual, you ALREADY make sizeable charitable donations and someone who has something you want badly is willing to sell you something at too high of a price so a Childrens Wing can be built on a hospital - what do you do? You move money from pot A to pot B, buy the coin, ensure the hospital wing is built and feel rather good about yourself."
Now, that is "thinking outside the box" !!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>I spoke to Laura, she said those are not spots. They are pieces of zinc that were left on the dies. The coin was intentionally struck by a Mint employee. She said Andy and her both feel the coin should grade 65. >>
________________________ BTW: If you're a "Coin Facts" subscriber, you can cut and paste the following link:
in your browser, and bring up a 2.3MB photo version of the coin that allows for a size increase with one left mouse click anywhere on the coin. When the image is expanded, it's easy to see the zinc 'particles' Laura refers to embedded in, or on the coin's surface. The strike details are also enlarged, and one can judge the grading for themselves.
Just thought is was neat and wanted to pass along.....
Nice coin but there are others out there waiting to be discovered by modern numismatist. It came from a former mint employee and I VERY MUCH doubt it was the only one made and I doubt it's really an error but a piece a la carte.
Comments
<< <i>I spoke to Laura, she said those are not spots. They are pieces of zinc that were left on the dies. The coin was intentionally struck by a Mint employee. She said Andy and her both feel the coin should grade 65.
Pretty wild if stuff. I never thought I'd be excited about seeing a penny, can't wait for FUN. >>
That's pretty cool. Hard to tell from a photo, but that coin sure looks MS65 to me. It will be exciting to see it in-hand.
Edited to add: CONGRATULATIONS to the Skrabalaks as well! Could not happen to better people.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Mindset of the person who bought this coin:
Impatient
Wanted it REALLY badly
Has/had too much money
Wanted to complete a unique set
Wanted to set a record for the highest price paid for a Copper coin (and then some!)
A shark in a pool of carp and minnows
Wants to impress a Girlfriend (or other person)! >>
You neglected to mention, "Mistakenly thinks this is a more important coin than it really is" >>
When you grow up dreaming about finding a 43 copper cent - is there really such a thing as thinking this coin is more important than it is? Just like Cardinal's dream was to own the Carter 1794 dollar - is that coin really the most important coin? Bottom line is that what makes ANY coin important is within each of us. It's not to be determined by you or I - but rather by the buyer and seller. Of course, with that said I'd have to agree that it wouldn't break $1M on a resale. But $500k is way too low a number these days. >>
Coins have relative importance. My Eliasberg proof trime is more important than your 2009 cent. Your former 1885 trade dollar is more important than my Eliasberg trime. Fitting this 1943-D cent into a general hierarchy of coin importance, it's far less important than many coins selling for far less money. I'm sure there's honest disagreement over exactly where the coin fits in that hierarchy; however, we all seem to recognize stupid money was paid for it.
Kindly be slightly less judgmental in your terms. 'All the money' shows much more respect while conveying your meaning just as well.
My understanding is there were multiple offers of $1M+ for the coin and all were rejected. See how a little additional information shines a new light on the subject?
And for that matter - how often does the opportunity to do something that's never been done before come along in numismatics? I did it when I completed the only uncirculated seated dollar set ever built. And I overpaid along the way. But I made money - because the result was so desirable. Who is to say that the buyer doesn't come out ahead from the creation of a unique and desireable set?
<< <i>Kindly be slightly less judgmental in your terms. 'All the money' shows much more respect while conveying your meaning just as well. >>
My choice of term was deliberately derisive. Stupid money means multiples of market value, as in buried for years. All the money merely means full retail.
<< <i>
<< <i>Kindly be slightly less judgmental in your terms. 'All the money' shows much more respect while conveying your meaning just as well. >>
My choice of term was deliberately derisive. Stupid money means multiples of market value, as in buried for years. All the money merely means full retail. >>
I wonder what this coin would bring if the own had to sell it at the next major auction.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>And to think...he could have used the money to buy 15,454 1964D Peace Dollars!
If this is a dig at Dan Carr, he said there would be 2000 or less produced and many of these have already been sold to collectors who are very happy with their purchase.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>The 1943-D bronze cent is the most valuable cent in the world. >>
Aren't there a few high grade 1793 chain and wreath cents that are high end SP/MS? These coins would be worth far more money in my opinion.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Kindly define 'stupid money'. More money than you or I think its worth doesn't make it stupid. I thought $7.6M too much for a certain coin, the buyer didn't - that doesn't make him stupid. What if there's no opportunity cost. What if that's the only way to fulfill a dream?
Kindly be slightly less judgmental in your terms. 'All the money' shows much more respect while conveying your meaning just as well.
My understanding is there were multiple offers of $1M+ for the coin and all were rejected. See how a little additional information shines a new light on the subject? >>
Also, when I see phrases like "he has/had too much money" I wonder who exactly decides how much is too much? And what do they plan on doing about it? Those are scary thoughts.
There is plenty to go around and when one has a lot, that doesn't mean someone else is missing out because of it. Seeing great prosperity should be inspirational. It reminds me of what's possible.
Sorry. Off my soapbox.
I think it's ultra-cool someone was able to put together the complete 6-coin off-metal set!
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
There is nothing to be jealous about. This sale helps all of us.
<< <i>The anonymous collector who formerly owned the coin “donated it to a charitable organization so they could sell it with all of the proceeds going to the charity,” according to Andy Skrabalak of Angel Dee’s Coins and Collectibles in Woodbridge, Virginia who acted as agent on behalf of the former owner. >>
Does anyone know if the purchase was set up as a tax deductible charity donation?
"What do you think of my new Penny, think it is worth a resub for a grade bump?"
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<< <i>Kindly be slightly less judgmental in your terms. 'All the money' shows much more respect while conveying your meaning just as well. >>
My choice of term was deliberately derisive. Stupid money means multiples of market value, as in buried for years. All the money merely means full retail. >>
Then you have shown yourself to have no idea as to the true market value of the coin, because the multiple paid is less than 2. Like I said, there were other independent offers of $1M made for the coin.
<< <i>I collect Morgans and think this transaction was great. It shows strength in the market. Really rich people just do not throw good money away.
There is nothing to be jealous about. This sale helps all of us. >>
This supports the position I've always taken in the coin world. Most coin collectors know from this hobby comes education and enjoyment, which leads to the greatest wealth of all.
So with that said, I select DaveE's post as one of the better posts I've read in good while.
roadrunner
<< <i>But one must remember this new wealthy buyer didn't make his money from investing in (coins) ahem or collecting coins, although whether this coin could be viewed as a bad investment ahem bad purchase to fill a very big hole will be determined in the future if and when he goes to sell.
Now I am still waiting for one of the more learned members to explain to me how the valuation of this coin was determined other than saying there were other offer(s) which is equivalent to hearsay imho, nothing wrong with but doesn't prove the value in any way.
Note, I have purchased some pricey coins for my budget and sometimes paid what I thought were pretty ridiculous amounts but still the valuation still had some basis behind it like a previous sale or comparable sale to extrapolate from, just trying to understand this transaction thats all, a littel help would be appreciated. >>
The value was determined by the seller and the buyer. The seller didn't want to sell to multiple buyers at $1M, so the value must be higher. The seller did sell at $1.7M to a single buyer, so the value to everyone else must be lower. The true value is greater than $1M but less than or equal to $1.7M by definition.
When dealing with unique items, the only way to determine value is to compare it to a comparable item that has transacted recently [1870-S half dime??] or to simply agree upon a price that both parties can live with.
<< <i>The value was determined by the seller and the buyer. The seller didn't want to sell to multiple buyers at $1M, so the value must be higher. The seller did sell at $1.7M to a single buyer, so the value to everyone else must be lower. The true value is greater than $1M but less than or equal to $1.7M by definition.
When dealing with unique items, the only way to determine value is to compare it to a comparable item that has transacted recently [1870-S half dime??] or to simply agree upon a price that both parties can live with. >>
What TDN said. Plus, if the buyer's goal was to complete the 6-piece 1943 Bronze / 1944 Steel cent set, he had to pay the price for the unique 1943-D bronze, and for the semi-unique 1944-S steel (in MS-66!) If I recall correctly, when the 1944-S steel sold for $373,750 in July, 2008, a lot of people believed that was way too much money for that coin. In view of the sale of the 1943-D bronze and the multiple offers over $1 million, the price of the 1944-S steel doesn't look too bad now in retrospect.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
So I've been there and I've done that and while it may be no fun at all to give Jay Parrino a $500k profit on the Eliasberg 1885 trade dollar after only a year [too much money yet again], just a few years later it was traded in on the 1913 Liberty Head nickel at $3M+. Sometimes you just gotta tip your cap to the dorkster and acknowledge that he's right when he says if you love something, if you really love it, then price doesn't matter.
IIRC someone took a bath on the 1870-S half dime at one point (Martin Paul I think it was). So automatically buying something very rare is not a gimme.
You tend to hear about the winners a lot more than the losers.
Regardless of the cost it is an UBER TRES COOL set and I am looking forward to seeing it.
But I would like clarification on TDN's comments about there being a number of underbidders at $1 MILL on this coin. But back on page 1 he stated that upon resale it would not fetch $1 MILL. Does that mean all those underbidders would have cold feet the next time this popped up for sale? They want it for $1 MILL knowing there's a buyer at a higher level, but they don't want it at even $1 MILL if that higher buyer goes away?
roadrunner
<< <i>This should create some buzz in the press. Has anyone seen a non-hobby article about this yet? >>
UPI has the story!
UPI.com
<< <i>Realone, this kinds of coins are certainly not in my expertise. I do note from TDN's previous comments that the 1804 $10 PF65 coin was available on the market for around $500K a relatively short time ago. Then almost instantly someone (a buyer and a seller) decided it was worth $5 MILL. Another example of the 8X club.
But I would like clarification on TDN's comments about there being a number of underbidders at $1 MILL on this coin. But back on page 1 he stated that upon resale it would not fetch $1 MILL. Does that mean all those underbidders would have cold feet the next time this popped up for sale? They want it for $1 MILL knowing there's a buyer at a higher level, but they don't want it at even $1 MILL if that higher buyer goes away?
roadrunner >>
Misspoke. Meant to say not more than one million.
As far as Martin Paul taking a bath on the 70-s half dime at one time, could be true. I believe he was big into seated half dimes and the allure of such a coin might have been hard to resist.
roadrunner
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<< <i>Kindly be slightly less judgmental in your terms. 'All the money' shows much more respect while conveying your meaning just as well. >>
My choice of term was deliberately derisive. Stupid money means multiples of market value, as in buried for years. All the money merely means full retail. >>
Then you have shown yourself to have no idea as to the true market value of the coin, because the multiple paid is less than 2. Like I said, there were other independent offers of $1M made for the coin. >>
That's a $700K burial even if those "greater fool" offers are still pending.
I get that you're partnered with Legend and therefore have a vested interest in making this sale seem reasonable. I don't happen to see it that way though.
Assets ultimately revert to their true value. This off metal strike will eventually revert to its true value, and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars.
<< <i>...and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars. >>
You can believe whatever you please. But those who offered $1 million obviously disagree with you, and were willing to put their money where there mouths/beliefs were.
<< <i>I get that you're partnered with Legend and therefore have a vested interest in making this sale seem reasonable. I don't happen to see it that way though.
Assets ultimately revert to their true value. This off metal strike will eventually revert to its true value, and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars. >>
Agree. People forget that it's a mint error and not a necessary part of a Lincoln cent collection. The Lincoln cent struck in gold ($2 1/2 gold planchet) is a far more desirable error IMO.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
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<< <i>...and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars. >>
You can believe whatever you please. But those who offered $1 million obviously disagree with you, and were willing to put their money where there mouths/beliefs were. >>
So what. Every burial at auction also has at least one underbidder, assuming the coin didn't sell for the minimum bid or reserve.
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<< <i>
<< <i>...and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars. >>
You can believe whatever you please. But those who offered $1 million obviously disagree with you, and were willing to put their money where there mouths/beliefs were. >>
So what. Every burial at auction also has at least one underbidder, assuming the coin didn't sell for the minimum bid or reserve. >>
So, if you believe the value is nowhere near $1m, but 1) more than one person offered that or more and 2) yet another person paid $1.7, what possibly could make you wrong? Would an additional five $1M offers make a difference? Ten? What would it take?
And while it is true that off-metal 1943 and 1944 coins are not part of the regular Lincoln set, they have long been items of particular interest. Just as Stellars command prices beyond patterns of lesser fame but greater rarity because collectors fancy Stellars. A couple of years ago a PR 64 Cam Stellar was being offered for $1.5 million. Is it worth that price or is that “stupid” money? Depends on how much you want to own it and how much money you have to spend.
A year or so ago someone paid $1 million or thereabout for a reeded edge Wreath Cent in rather ragged condition. That was more than the price paid for the finest known and rarer and more famous Strawberry Cent. I do not understand why, but that is of no real importance.
CG
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<< <i>...and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars. >>
You can believe whatever you please. But those who offered $1 million obviously disagree with you, and were willing to put their money where there mouths/beliefs were. >>
So what. Every burial at auction also has at least one underbidder, assuming the coin didn't sell for the minimum bid or reserve. >>
So, if you believe the value is nowhere near $1m, but 1) more than one person offered that or more and 2) yet another person paid $1.7, what possibly could make you wrong? Would an additional five $1M offers make a difference? Ten? What would it take? >>
It would take a consistent history of sales, not just one outlier sale.
<< <i>
<< <i>I get that you're partnered with Legend and therefore have a vested interest in making this sale seem reasonable. I don't happen to see it that way though.
Assets ultimately revert to their true value. This off metal strike will eventually revert to its true value, and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars. >>
Agree. People forget that it's a mint error and not a necessary part of a Lincoln cent collection. The Lincoln cent struck in gold ($2 1/2 gold planchet) is a far more desirable error IMO. >>
No Lincoln cents were ever intended to be struck on gold planchets. Obviously this was
a very out of the norm type of error. It can't really be considered a part of the lincoln set.
Lincoln cents were intended to be struck on copper planchets and anyone not familiar with
the steel cents of 1943 might think this was just normal for the date. It was most probably
a planchet made to be struck by Lincoln cent dies and it was.
Whether this makes it part of the set or not is an individual decision but some will believe
it's a legitimate part of the complete Lincoln set. Many of us grew up looking for these coins
and a few were found from the other mints.
I find it interesting that the newest coin worth a million dollars just keeps getting more and
more modern. First it was 1913 then 1933. Now it's 1943.
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<< <i>...and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars. >>
You can believe whatever you please. But those who offered $1 million obviously disagree with you, and were willing to put their money where there mouths/beliefs were. >>
So what. Every burial at auction also has at least one underbidder, assuming the coin didn't sell for the minimum bid or reserve. >>
So, if you believe the value is nowhere near $1m, but 1) more than one person offered that or more and 2) yet another person paid $1.7, what possibly could make you wrong? Would an additional five $1M offers make a difference? Ten? What would it take? >>
It would take a consistent history of sales, not just one outlier sale. >>
That would be great, but unfortunately, such a history isn't available for certain coins. And the fact that it's not, doesn't necessarily make the (seemingly crazy) bidders "wrong".
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<< <i>...and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars. >>
You can believe whatever you please. But those who offered $1 million obviously disagree with you, and were willing to put their money where there mouths/beliefs were. >>
So what. Every burial at auction also has at least one underbidder, assuming the coin didn't sell for the minimum bid or reserve. >>
So, if you believe the value is nowhere near $1m, but 1) more than one person offered that or more and 2) yet another person paid $1.7, what possibly could make you wrong? Would an additional five $1M offers make a difference? Ten? What would it take? >>
It would take a consistent history of sales, not just one outlier sale. >>
That would be great, but unfortunately, such a history isn't available for certain coins. And the fact that it's not, doesn't necessarily make the (seemingly crazy) bidders "wrong". >>
I dub ye coinguy1....."The voice of reason"
Franklin-Lover's Forum
<< <i>When you need one last coin to complete a set, and all of the other coins in the set are extremely rare and very expensive, and that one last coin is itself unique, and the owner paid a substantial sum for it and is apparently not in dire need of money, and th owner has figure out that you really really want it, it is going to take a very large sum indeed to procure it.
And while it is true that off-metal 1943 and 1944 coins are not part of the regular Lincoln set, they have long been items of particular interest. Just as Stellars command prices beyond patterns of lesser fame but greater rarity because collectors fancy Stellars. A couple of years ago a PR 64 Cam Stellar was being offered for $1.5 million. Is it worth that price or is that “stupid” money? Depends on how much you want to own it and how much money you have to spend.
A year or so ago someone paid $1 million or thereabout for a reeded edge Wreath Cent in rather ragged condition. That was more than the price paid for the finest known and rarer and more famous Strawberry Cent. I do not understand why, but that is of no real importance.
CG >>
This is really well said
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<< <i>...and I believe that value is nowhere near $1M in today's dollars. >>
You can believe whatever you please. But those who offered $1 million obviously disagree with you, and were willing to put their money where there mouths/beliefs were. >>
So what. Every burial at auction also has at least one underbidder, assuming the coin didn't sell for the minimum bid or reserve. >>
So, if you believe the value is nowhere near $1m, but 1) more than one person offered that or more and 2) yet another person paid $1.7, what possibly could make you wrong? Would an additional five $1M offers make a difference? Ten? What would it take? >>
It would take a consistent history of sales, not just one outlier sale. >>
That's not possible with unique items. You are looking at this as a copper cent - not as a unique 43-D that is also the finest known copper cent. It's head and shoulders above any other 43 copper. I've spent my numismatic lifetime figuring the values of ultra rarities and significant coins. Although I don't figure this coin at $1.7M, it is indeed worth significantly more than you are giving it credit for and the difference is just what it took to pry it out of very strong hands into very strong hands. Most of us just shake our heads when a piece of art changes hands privately - this is merely the same sort of thing.
As far as being a partner in Legend and therefore having to justify the price - no, I don't. The buyer said go fetch and I don't give a rat's ass if he's buried or not. He's a big boy and capable of making his own financial decisions on how much to overpay for things. What bothers me is your judgemental and dismissive attitude that something is stupid money instead of appreciation for what's been built. Bottom line is that when you are building unique sets, you ALWAYS have to overpay. I know it's true because I've been there and done that. And it has NOTHING to do with other Lincoln cents - the owner likes copper 43 cents because he found one in circulation as a child [wasn't real].
All errors are unique (I'm not talking about varieties where there are multiples), but this one is considerably more special than others. While I agree with RWB that the 1942 pattern is more interesting to me on a personal level, it lacks a kinship to regular business strikes that lessens its desirability to a certain type of collector. As far as pricing? The value is what a reasonably prudent seller not under duress would sell it for, and a reasonably prudent buyer would pay for it -- plain and simple.
We remember coins like that from our youth. I do not like pennies, but I admit, I too fantasized about finding one.
I'd be shocked if the majority of people here haven't checked many times in their lives to see if they found one.
It does not surprise me what this 43D sold. for.
Congrats to all parties involved!
WOW!!
Now, that is "thinking outside the box" !!
Wondercoin
<< <i>
<< <i>I spoke to Laura, she said those are not spots. They are pieces of zinc that were left on the dies. The coin was intentionally struck by a Mint employee. She said Andy and her both feel the coin should grade 65. >>
________________________
BTW: If you're a "Coin Facts" subscriber, you can cut and paste the following link:
http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/UserImages/1943d Bronze Cent large.jpg
in your browser, and bring up a 2.3MB photo version of the coin that allows for a size increase with one left mouse click anywhere on the coin. When the image is expanded, it's easy to see the zinc 'particles' Laura refers to embedded in, or on the coin's surface. The strike details are also enlarged, and one can judge the grading for themselves.
Just thought is was neat and wanted to pass along.....