Pawn Stars 1861S Double Eagle -$34000???
mkman123
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Hi all, today on Pawn Stars someone brought a 1861S Double Eagle. The expert said he thought it was MS63 and worth $40k. Is this correct? What do you all think of the offer of $34k??
Thanks!
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The old man was pretty quiet during the whole negotiation but threw in a confirmation at a counter offer and Rick went for it. I bet he'll never get $40k, maybe have to sit on it for awhile to find the right buyer, but eventually it will get sold.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
-D
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
From HA:
The 1861-S Paquet Reverse is among the most favored and storied coins in U.S. numismatics. The Liberty Head double eagle series is a long one, measuring nearly six decades in length. But it is one that, although studded with numerous low-mintage rarities, for the most part lacks an abundance of design variations, errors, and varieties.
That is perhaps part of why the 1861-S Paquet Reverse double eagle is so popular, as it offers both of those treasured attributes: It is a numismatic (and conditional) rarity with a small mintage, and a significant design variant by an underrated but interesting Mint engraver, Anthony C. Paquet. The issue is listed in the Top 100 U.S. Coins by Jeff Garrett and Ron Guth.
Despite the French surname, Paquet was born in 1814 in Hamburg, Germany, probably the son of one Toussaint François Paquet, a bronze-worker. The younger Paquet emigrated to America in 1848, at age 34. By the mid-1850s he had an engraving shop in New York City. Paquet hired on at the Mint in 1857 and stayed there until 1864, at which time he re-entered the private sector, but he continued doing contract work for the Mint until as late as 1877. Writing in the Bass catalog, Bowers said of Paquet's pre-Mint days, "Unfortunately, there seems to be virtually nothing in present numismatic literature to identify tokens, medals, or any other metallic items he may have created prior to coming to the Mint, save for a John C. Fremont campaign medal" with a reverse inscription of "THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS ECHO BACK FREMONT, etc."
Although Paquet is known to have designed quite a few pattern pieces, they are unsigned, including 1858-dated quarters and half dollars (Judd-221 through 223), 1859-dated half dollars (Judd-247 through 255) and double eagle patterns of 1859 and 1860 (Judd-260, 272a, 273), and at least one 1877 half dollar (Judd-1540 and 1541), among others.
Paquet also left a rich legacy of Mint medals. Many of them are signed; interestingly, Paquet preferred a script style for his signature rather than the traditional block letters usually seen. Signed Mint medals of Paquet include the important 1860 Washington Cabinet medal (Baker-326, Julian-MT-23) commemorating the establishment of the Mint's collection of Washingtonia. The creation of the Washington Cabinet was, in itself, the likely impetus for many subsequent Mint shenanigans, patterns, and fantasy pieces created as trade bait for the Washington items, but that is a story for another day ...
A curious characteristic of Paquet's work is a peculiar preference for a font (letter style) identified by tall, thick verticals and diagonals on the letters, with thin horizontals and serifs. This font was used on the Paquet Reverse patterns of 1860 and was adopted in late 1860 for the regular-issue double eagles of 1861. Dies were shipped to the branch mints in New Orleans and San Francisco, and the Philadelphia Mint actually produced examples. But Mint Director James Ross Snowden deemed them unsuitable for high-speed production and ordered the entire Philadelphia emission destroyed. Only two pieces of the 1861 Paquet Reverse are known today.
The New Orleans Mint was notified via telegraph in time to halt production of any 1861-O Paquet double eagles--but in the case of San Francisco, there were as yet no transcontinental telegraph wires to allow instantaneous transmission of the order to "cease and desist." By the time the San Francisco Mint received the Snowden directive, the facility had struck 19,250 examples of a modified design--apparently all of which promptly entered circulation. There are no Uncirculated examples known today, and most of the 100 or so surviving specimens grade only Very Fine to Extremely Fine.
Big Hoss and chumley are quite a mess.
On a side note I'm curious to know their track record dealing with Chinese counterfeits.
Tom
<< <i>The entire show is scripted!
True but if it wasn't Im sure the show would be a mess.
<< <i>The entire show is scripted!
10 Dollars says that coin is not in their stock.
But it does make good TV
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
Were there '61s in the Central America or Brother Jonathan? I'm wondering if it's a conserved piece from NCS.
--Severian the Lame
If it's a possible 64 coin then certainly shelling out 63 money is a good deal...or even if it's just PQ. Coin dealers make this offer all the time. Differentiating a solid MS63 $20 Lib from lesser grades is one of the easiest tasks in grading imo. They are big coins with all the marks available to see and count. The luster is not hidden by toning. The potential pitfalls are counterfeits and putty. And if you know what you're looking for the counterfeit part is not hard to eliminate. And even a coin with otherwise choice appearing surfaces and luster did have a tad of putty, I can't see that being a killer on a coin like this that is a pop 1 in the grade. I didn't see that part of last night's eposide and who appraised the coin for them. But if it was Dana Linnett, he was a coin dealer long before he was ever an expert in historical US documents. And Rick uses him all the time in that area. In the early 1980's Dana owned Early American Numismatics. I won't say he was a TPG quality grader but certainly he's as good or better than most collectors. His expertise was more in colonials but when he set up in the 1980's he did do all coins.
The Pawn Shop is in the habit of making money. I don't think they would offer a lot of money on this coin unless they knew what they were doing. They aren't in the business of losing money, esp. $34K.
roadrunner
<< <i>reqardless of being scripted or not its still a desent show to watch. i cant stand that other one with them 2 guys (?). i think its american pickers or something >>
American Pickers is ok. I just don't know how they make any money doing what they do. The gas expense alone driving around the country to make $25 here and $100 there. I think the most I have seen them make is $800 on one item. That being said their tattooed receptionist is sexy
<< <i>
<< <i>reqardless of being scripted or not its still a desent show to watch. i cant stand that other one with them 2 guys (?). i think its american pickers or something >>
American Pickers is ok. I just don't know how they make any money doing what they do. The gas expense alone driving around the country to make $25 here and $100 there. I think the most I have seen them make is $800 on one item. That being said their tattooed receptionist is sexy
I saw both shows for the first time last night. I honestly thought the pawn shop owners were insane for offering that much money for a raw classic gold coin. The holder looked more like one of those Coin World snap-style "slabs" than a TPG which had been cracked.
I can't imagine how the two men from 'American Pickers' can just drive up cold to a house with a couple of barns and be granted permission to rummage around looking for treasures. Also, they made quite a bit more than $800 on a couple of items last night. Looks like a fun way to make a living, anyway.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
It's a little hilarious all the way around. Are we to really expect that a bail bondsmen in the business of making money accepts a gold coin without knowing the value in lieu of a 50k risk to the courts. I think not, as in no way in Hell. Are we to think with the cursive evaluation of the grader, that's it's really a 63+ and any sane person would put 34k at risk on that one quick opinioin. not me. Are we to believe that any grader is good enough to accurately market grade a coin exactly the same grade as PCGS every time, I think not. Am I really to think that Rick doesn't have a red book under the counter, and yet he remembers the date as a possible rare variety, I think not. That he's too lazy to look at the very clear pic in the red book of the two and ascertain that it is not the Parquet without having to call in an expert, I think not. Am I really to believe the grader that's it's the top pop and only worth 40k, I think not.
Lets check back in a year and see if the pops have changed. The show is entertaining, but no way in hell reflects reality any more than professional wrestling. Or am I wrong, can some of you withstand 15 straight punches to the jaw without drawing blood and 225 pounds slamming on your head/neck from 6' above.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>I thought the coin was beautiful. But something about it just seemed too good. And the fact that it came in a slab that looked awfully close to an NGC slab but was missing its label?
Were there '61s in the Central America or Brother Jonathan? I'm wondering if it's a conserved piece from NCS. >>
That would be something since the USS Central America sank in 1857......
I'd be suspicious of a coin that had been cracked out and the label lost or tossed.
Oh, wow! Double Eagle! It's so beautiful!
Sorry, couldn't resist...
but maybe that PCGS dealer guy told them off camera that he would buy it from them for $36K or something
Edited to add: Mike from American Pickers does have a legitimate business where Frank is not involved.
-D
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
<< <i>
<< <i>I thought the coin was beautiful. But something about it just seemed too good. And the fact that it came in a slab that looked awfully close to an NGC slab but was missing its label?
Were there '61s in the Central America or Brother Jonathan? I'm wondering if it's a conserved piece from NCS. >>
That would be something since the USS Central America sank in 1857......
I'd be suspicious of a coin that had been cracked out and the label lost or tossed. >>
SS REPUBLIC sank in 1865 and 1861 double eagles were indeed some of what was salvaged.
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>Sean, I can say from experience that it's not that difficult to get onto someone's property with their permission to search through stuff. The people who say OK are completely ok with things and if not, they aren't going to show you all of the failures on television
Edited to add: Mike from American Pickers does have a legitimate business where Frank is not involved.
-D >>
I like pickers from the perspective of getting a glimpse of America. I think in that they are doing us a service.
What everyone doesn't realize is that "Chumlee" is the brains behind the show.
roadrunner
<< <i>The thing that concerned me and turned me off for this coin, was the "expert" said it had minimal wear. DING DING DING, why would an expert use that term then call the coin MS 63+????? >>
I picked up on that too. Seems like that would take it down to AU58
A guy walks into a pawn shop with a $35,000 better date uncirculated classic double eagle, which was either raw in a CW holder or was still in a cracked NGC holder with the identifying insert removed, which had been given to him by someone who had been arrested and arraigned for a serious crime (you don't post that much bond for unpaid parking tickets), and who skipped town and forfeited a $50,000 bond...
...and it doesn't occur to any of the people in the transaction that the coin might be stolen?
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>You know, I don't know why this didn't hit me before, but let me ask this:
A guy walks into a pawn shop with a $35,000 better date uncirculated classic double eagle, which was either raw in a CW holder or was still in a cracked NGC holder with the identifying insert removed, which had been given to him by someone who had been arrested and arraigned for a serious crime (you don't post that much bond for unpaid parking tickets), and who skipped town and forfeited a $50,000 bond...
...and it doesn't occur to any of the people in the transaction that the coin might be stolen?
Sean Reynolds >>
You right Sean - Good point, but I don't think is possible to prove.
I recorded the show in HD on my DVR and I compared the coin with my 1904-s PCGS MS64. I think the 1861-s is equal....maybe better than mine.
Matt
http://ProofCollection.Net
Couldn't it be because experts are well aware that most earlier US coins are net graded on rub vs. luster? Almost every TPG graded bust half or dollar has wear. And to hear an expert mention that an MS64 bust dollar or half has minimal rub would be precisely what I would expect an expert grader to say (at least under his breath). What percentage of MS64 bust halves would you say have no wear? I'd estimate <5%. In the past couple of years I think I've only seen 1 that was totally rub free. And it was an amazing specimen with frost on frost. Too bad it had some hits and marks that kept it from 65 as it had the luster of a MS67. Seated dollars aren't as bad but most early dates I've seen have slight friction up to MS63 to MS64. Same is true for about half of the early seated quarters and halves (1839-1855).
If that standard were applied to every early seated dollar, all bust coins, you'd probably find that what gets TPG graded now up to MS64, if not MS65 does indeed have light friction, and luster breaks. All of those are technically wear. But that's only if you want to get really technical. In fact most of the coins circulated for some time before being pulled out and saved. Ironically, one of my favorite controversially graded TPG coins is the Eliasberg 1861-s half in MS64. It has a huge flat plateau running down Liberty's right leg that just looks unsightly when surrounded by otherwise nice mint luster. While some or even most of that is from striking, the rest of the coin has full mint luster with no breaks, or a near gem appearance. One could hammer such a coin by calling it AU58 which technically it is since the highest point is clearly discolored and rubbed. Or you can market grade it as MS64 which the TPG felt it was. Personally, I'd grade it 58-62 but that's just me. So Dana (the expert) might not be in error by claiming minimal "wear" on this 1861-s $20. If a coin has full and strong field luster, that wear is often ignored on mid to early 19th century coins. When you rack up 30 yrs grading coins for a living as Dana has, you can be called an expert too.
roadrunner
<< <i>Wear is wear. If he wants to describe wear and still call it MS he needs to be more specific and just not use a general term. I don't doubt his skills, I just question his use of words, and words have meaning. >>
For goodness sake, it's a reality show. You simply can not be parsing every word like that and expect the result to be authoritative.
Like RR says, Mr. Linnett knows what he is doing. And he could explain the nuances of market grading ad nauseum, but they would never show that on TV because, frankly, the average viewer just doesn't care.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Consider how many calls they probably got from people trying to buy the coin. And consider that that probably happens on a regular basis. Now, consider the opportunities to use the show to sell stuff that "magically" walks into the shop. Not that I'm saying anything is amiss, but you gotta at least think about it. >>
That's a very good point MrEureka and something I didn't even consider.
BTW, I haven't seen this episode yet. Does anyone have a youtube link with this segment?
Franklin-Lover's Forum
John the bailsbondman arriver at 6:45 in episode
1861-S double eagle
<< <i>It's a little hilarious all the way around. Are we to really expect that a bail bondsmen in the business of making money accepts a gold coin without knowing the value in lieu of a 50k risk to the courts. I think not, as in no way in Hell. Are we to think with the cursive evaluation of the grader, that's it's really a 63+ and any sane person would put 34k at risk on that one quick opinioin. not me. Are we to believe that any grader is good enough to accurately market grade a coin exactly the same grade as PCGS every time, I think not. Am I really to think that Rick doesn't have a red book under the counter, and yet he remembers the date as a possible rare variety, I think not. That he's too lazy to look at the very clear pic in the red book of the two and ascertain that it is not the Parquet without having to call in an expert, I think not. Am I really to believe the grader that's it's the top pop and only worth 40k, I think not.
Lets check back in a year and see if the pops have changed. The show is entertaining, but no way in hell reflects reality any more than professional wrestling. Or am I wrong, can some of you withstand 15 straight punches to the jaw without drawing blood and 225 pounds slamming on your head/neck from 6' above. >>
Well said, well said. Completely scripted and funny to most people (yes, I like the show at times too). It should have been $5k up front and another $10k if it graded. He's a pawn broker, he ain't goin' anywhere.
It looked like a 64 (about) from the video