EDITED TO ASK: Could this be an 1817 Texas Jola?

MrEureka · September 12, 2010 10:01AM

Photo Courtesy of the American Numismatic Association

DieClash · September 12, 2010 10:04AM

I'll help everyone narrow it down. First clue: "not of U.S. origin"

Added the

in the slight chance that I may be wrong.

numisma · September 12, 2010 10:06AM

Texas jola (1/2 reale) struck by Manuel Barrera.

TexasNationals · September 12, 2010 10:08AM

1/2 real, thinking Jola too, but don't think so. Is it?

MrEureka · September 12, 2010 10:17AM

1/2 real, thinking Jola too, but don't think so. Is it?

I believe so!

MrEureka · September 12, 2010 10:34AM

In case it hasn't registered, 1817 Jolas were unknown until recently, and they're still controversial. It's the 1818's that are well known and accepted, and there about 60 of those known.

Here's a picture of an 1818.

LanLord · September 12, 2010 10:55AM

<< In case it hasn't registered, 1817 Jolas were unknown until recently, and they're still controversial. It's the 1818's that are well known and accepted, and there about 60 of those known.

Here's a picture of an 1818.

>>

those are big numbers! Liberty would have to be microscopic with though numbers!

Barry · September 12, 2010 11:01AM

What's a Jola?

MrEureka · September 12, 2010 11:03AM

What's a Jola?

From the Heritage lot description:

"1818 1/2RL New Spain (Texas) Jola Half Real, Large Planchet AU58 PCGS. Breen-1081. The Texas jolas were made by Jose Antonio de la Garza of San Fernando de Bexar. While that locale may not ring a bell, its current name surely will: San Antonio.
San Fernando de Bexar was the capital of Texas (then a province of New Spain) during the 1810-1821 War of Independence. Apparently, community leaders prevailed upon the governor of the province, Lt. Col. Manuel Prado, to authorize Manuel Barrera to coin 8,000 copper coins to facilitate commerce in March 1817. No specimens are currently known.
In May 1817, Prado was succeeded by Antonio Martinez as governor and military commander of the province of Texas. In December 1818, he granted the request of Jose Antonio de la Garza, the local postmaster, to mint 500 pesos' worth of "small change in copper coins called Jolas, which shall circulate only through the town with values of one half of a real each." This amounts to 8,000 pieces authorized. In a town with a population of about 2,000 people, this would have had a significant impact on relieving the shortage of small change.
The petition granted also stated that "these shall be engraved with the first letters of my name and surname and the year of this date." Garza was also required to redeem Barerra's coins issued the previous year in exchange for his own. Perhaps this exchange was so successful that no Barrera jolas survived. While significant parts of the United States were at one point Spanish territory, the Texas jola is a unique issue in that it is the only known Spanish Colonial coin made in what is now the United States of America.
The de la Garza jolas first came to the attention of collectors when one was sent to The Numismatist, which published a line drawing of the piece in 1903, but was unable to provide any information to its owner. A historian knew of them in 1892 but this knowledge did not make it to numismatic circles for more than half a century. Meanwhile, the house in which de la Garza may have minted these coins was destroyed in 1912, so all information about this issue is likely to come from the coins themselves and documents in the Bexar Archives. It has been speculated that the star on the reverse was the inspiration for the "lone star" that became perhaps the best known symbol of Texas.
In 1959, a group of approximately 60 specimens was discovered during excavation work along the San Antonio River. The area of the find was once a 19th century campground used by cowboys. A few others have been discovered since, virtually all of which have been dug. Apparently they did not circulate long, so most are not greatly worn but, having been buried, most do show corrosion. Katherine Jaeger and Dave Bowers, in their recently published reference 100 Greatest American Medals and Tokens, indicate that "fewer than 100" are known of both the large and small planchet variations, and it is known that many of the survivors are impounded in bank and museum collections. Had the hoard of 60 pieces not been unearthed in 1959, this issue would be essentially uncollectible today.
The 1818 New Spain jolas appeal to Colonial coin collectors, enthusiasts of Mexican and Spanish Colonial issues, as well as Texas collectors regardless of their numismatic specialty. Even though these are rare coins, several variations have been noted, including large and small planchet coins, and a number of different dies were used. The sideways fraction in the center of the obverse stands for one-half real, which was a familiar Spanish-Mexican coin of the time."

Aegis3 · September 12, 2010 1:49PM

If I remember to, I'll post some more rambles tomorrow, but a question on the 1818 first. Are the lettering/numbering in their by punches, or from engraving? Or do we know?

swhuck · September 13, 2010 1:57AM

<< In case it hasn't registered, 1817 Jolas were unknown until recently, and they're still controversial. It's the 1818's that are well known and accepted, and there about 60 of those known.
>>

What can you tell me about these? I know someone who may have one.

Artist · September 13, 2010 3:41AM

Very cool! According to the information you have provided, this coin would be a discovery piece!

MrEureka · September 13, 2010 4:12AM

SWHuck - The book to check out is here. There's a section on the Jolas, including photos of some of the newly discovered varieties. However, there are also a number of varieties not listed, including the piece in the OP.

ColonelJessup · September 13, 2010 4:37AM

Have you considered the possibilty of an overdate?

swhuck · September 13, 2010 4:46AM

<< SWHuck - The book to check out is here. There's a section on the Jolas, including photos of some of the newly discovered varieties. However, there are also a number of varieties not listed, including the piece in the OP. >>

Ah. I've seen Jim Bevill give a presentation on that book, but didn't realize that there was a section covering new varieties of Jolas.

I've also seen the coin I mentioned earlier and believe that there's a reasonable chance that it could be an 1817 jola. The guy who owns it has done a good deal of research and has hit a wall; as you mentioned, their existence remains controversial. It's actually not out of the question that it could be the pictured piece; I know the ANA was aware of it, but don't know whether they photographed it.

TexasNationals · September 13, 2010 12:10PM

First, the book is GREAT, a must read for any history buff, Texas buff, paper buff or coin buff. Very well written, very high quality paper and pictures. It is a must by, bottom line. The coin in the OP is pretty convincing. I think the reason for the question for the puch or carve on the dates and specifically the 8 is to see if it was the same puch used, jst a Guess. I own a 1818 Jola, not as nice as the one pictured, I assume that is the PCGS AU-58 that was "restored". Mine is corroded, not heavily, but given how they were found, they would all be, at least the 1818 coin hoard discovered in 1959. I am curious if anyone knows the exact location the hoard was un-earthed, if so please PM me. Every year one or two seem to be found around here. I have seen lots of fakes, I have seen coins that have been represented as the 1817 prototype coins, but if I had to guess, the OP coin is the most convincing that I have seen. Keep me in the loop Andy.

Jeff

TexasNationals · September 13, 2010 12:11PM

BUY THE BOOK!!

MrEureka · September 13, 2010 3:10PM

a question on the 1818 first. Are the lettering/numbering in their by punches, or from engraving?

There are 5 varieties of 1818's pictured in Bevill's book. Based on a comparison of those coins, it appears that the answer is "engraving".

swhuck · July 4, 2012 3:42AM

There are two of these in the upcoming Heritage auction, both certified by PCGS. It turns out that one of them is indeed the piece that I mentioned earlier in the thread; I'm very happy to see it here.

RichieURich · July 4, 2012 4:06AM

<< There are two of these in the upcoming Heritage auction, both certified by PCGS. It turns out that one of them is indeed the piece that I mentioned earlier in the thread; I'm very happy to see it here. >>

Where are they, I couldn't find them.

Nevermind, found them now.

ColonelJessup · July 4, 2012 4:43AM

Did it CAC?

johnny9434 · July 4, 2012 9:08AM

<< What's a Jola? >>

yeah, what is it ? nevermind

ambro51 · July 4, 2012 9:11AM

Jola is a Spamish word for Really Freaking Rare Coin

TexasNationals · July 4, 2012 9:19AM

I don't know guys and gals, I have owned several 1818 real jolas and I have always been very very very skeptical of the 1817 as have most collectors, interested to see what happens and no disrespect to Heritage, but more so to PCGS, this is a LEAP. These all of a sudden started showing up in the Seguin area and I know of an old time collector who has an example of the 1817 and claims to know the counterfeiter from the 1950's. I have seen these traded hands down here in S. Texas under the assumption they are not legit, but proof would be next to impossible.

MidLifeCrisis · July 4, 2012 9:20AM

<< Jola is a Spamish word for Really Freaking Rare Coin >>

ColonialCoinUnion · July 4, 2012 10:20PM

Authenticating these looks like it would be extremely difficult.

Staircoins · July 4, 2012 11:10PM

The closest I will ever come to owning a '17 Jola is seeing one by my name with each post.

<-----------------

pruebas · July 4, 2012 11:15PM

According to the research given in the Heritage lot descriptions (from a university researcher), the metal at least looks legit.

mariner67 · July 4, 2012 11:54PM

Another great example of what information and coin history can be learned from these boards.
Thanks everyone.
Day by day I learn here.
Best.

MrEureka · July 5, 2012 12:15AM

Authenticating these looks like it would be extremely difficult.

Given the sequence and circumstances of the finds, authenticating the discovery pieces seems pretty easy. Authenticating subsequent pieces will be more challenging, as the coins are simple enough to be easily copied. (Will share detailed thoughts later. I'm currently finishing up lunch in Lisbon, on the way to an auction, so I'm short for time.)

pruebas · July 5, 2012 3:14AM

<< I don't know guys and gals, I have owned several 1818 real jolas and I have always been very very very skeptical of the 1817 as have most collectors, interested to see what happens and no disrespect to Heritage, but more so to PCGS, this is a LEAP. These all of a sudden started showing up in the Seguin area and I know of an old time collector who has an example of the 1817 and claims to know the counterfeiter from the 1950's. I have seen these traded hands down here in S. Texas under the assumption they are not legit, but proof would be next to impossible. >>

It could be that those "Seguin hoard" pieces are indeed fakes, but that certainly does not condemn all such pieces.

PCGS seems to have been convinced enough to put themselves on the line for these two pieces at least.

Edited for spelling.

TexasNationals · July 5, 2012 3:33AM

It could be that those "Seguin hoard" pieces are indeed fakes, but that certainly does not condem all such pieces. PCGS seems to have been convinced enough to put themselves on the line for these two pieces at least. Edited for spelling.

Contrarily to popular belief the first 1817 Jola wasn't found in 1963 and it wasn't found in Gonzales, TX. I for one don't think they are real but that is just me.

MrEureka · July 5, 2012 5:45AM

Still more to come on the 1817's recent discoveries, but I want to make a quick request. Can anyone here provide a picture of one of the allegedly fake 1817's that supposedly appeared in the 50's or 60's? I've never seen one, or even heard of one until now.

BTW, here's some more background on the coins from QDB: LINK

Spooly · July 5, 2012 6:32AM

How can PCGS grade these coins? VF-20..... please. I would like to see PCGS grading set of these.

TexasNationals · July 5, 2012 12:07PM

Andy, I am not sure if these 2 represent the Schlulenberg coins or not, six there and another 1-20 have shown up, I have even seen one in silver. I will have to see if I have the old pics I took in 2002-3ish, my point and a lot of others are that none of the 1817's are real. I am sure this isn't what you wanted to hear and I have never asked John Rowe his opinion, but several others, prior to the book dismissed them and many still do. There is enough documentation (in fact I inadvertently discovered some for the 1818 1/2 reals in a shop in Dallas in 2004 and no one knew what it was until a year later). I have owned 3 separate 1818 real Jola's and have had the chance to buy 6-10 1817's along with many other prominent dealers in Houston, San Antonio and Dallas and we all passed even at 5 figure prices. In fact these coins came from 2 groups, 1 in New Braunfels and one from Olney from old time collections. I bought the STAR notes, the un-cut UN Peso sheets and other stuff and have posted pictures here. No one wanted or accepted these until Bevill's book came out and now they are good to go? I remember a conversation with Joe Olson regarding these and we agreed (R.I.P). I wish I knew Amon Carter back in the day or Medlar, but alas I am 33 y.o and missed the boat. I can't prove they are NOT legit but I haven't seen proof they ARE legit, when that happens I turn to the people who make my 432 note Texas National collection look like a starter set or people around when 60 came from the mud. All I can say is I hope some proof comes up sometime, but until then my money stays in my pocket for the 1818 Jola's. A lot of documentation even regarding these has proven false. No one more than me wants it to be legit and own one and I have the cash to do it, but not the moxy.

Take this for example- yeah the Star note is tough, but they come up now and then for sale, but which signature makes it sooooooo desirable? Texas note collectors that see this go nuts and numbers start flying, enough to buy a Jola with money left over.

ColonelJessup · July 6, 2012 8:39AM

Joking aside, fascinating thread

MrEureka · July 8, 2012 1:44AM

So, let's do a little more to sort this mess out.

First, the background. We know from the historical record that jolas were struck in both 1817 and 1818. It would be a mistake to assume that all 1817's have to be fake, but we also can't assume that they aren't.

Second, it's certainly possible that there are some counterfeits and fantasy pieces out there, of one or both dates.

It's now up to the numismatic community to figure out which coins are real, which coins are fake, and on which ones the jury is still out.

Now, as to the coin in the OP, as far as I know, it is the only one of its type. I know its provenance and, given that the prior two owners did not consider it to be Mexican (much less Texan), I'm confident that it was not created in modern times as a "fantasy jola". Besides, the coin looks its age and has a fabric exactly as one would expect for a Mexican copper of its era that had not been buried. Even more importantly, it has the same fabric and style of the piece found on December 17, 1963 on the grounds of an old Spanish fort at Goliad, TX. That coin is has been permanently "impounded" at the Catholic Diocese of Victoria. The Goliad piece is, along with the coin in the OP, one of only two pieces with Barrera's name spelled out, although the Goliad piece has the name in "mirror image", the result of an amateur die cutter's blunder.

As for the coins in the upcoming ANA sales, similar pieces have been found in Mexico in at least two locations. Three were found with a metal detector, although I cannot verify that story. Another was found in a group of unattributed tokens sold at auction in Mexico, with no hint of the the Texas connection. That story is 100% verifiable. Interestingly, the reverse device (be it from a die or a tool of some sort) of the Mexican finds is very similar to the pieces with Barrera's name spelled out. The obverses of these coins also share some distinct characteristics with the "Barrera" pieces.

Finally, I should mention that given the small number of 1817's found to date - less than 10 - there are at least 5 different die varieties. This is not unusual for a crudely produced copper series of the era (and earlier), but it would be strange for a counterfeiter to go to such lengths. (Of course, we can't rule out the possibility that there was more than one counterfeiter.)

I'm sure I'll have some more to add later...

ranshdow · July 8, 2012 7:42AM

Bump for an awesome thread. I've thought these little guys were cool since the Numismatist article of a few months back.

swhuck · July 9, 2012 12:08PM

My understanding is that at least one of the pieces in this auction was found in Texas. I hope to be able to post back later with details.

lordmarcovan · July 9, 2012 12:25PM

Certainly looks crude enough.

Seriously, I know zip about these, aside from seeing pictures in the Redbook.

TexasNationals · July 10, 2012 6:25AM

Well let's see, I was having lunch with 3 or the contributors to "The Paper Republic" Book and I brought this thread up. After the laughter stopped there was shock that 2 were in holders and in a ha.com. A few later this comes out

Now if you have a copy of the book Fig 2.8 and 2.9 tell a story of these, coins found in 2.9 cond and 2.8 restored to its current condition. Real choice AU or better IMO, for a dug coin that seems weird. Now we have this coin, same die, NOT the same coin in the book in choice UNC.

This die now has 2 and the other dies don't match up, star is off per 1818 IMO. The ha.com is a real coin, IMO just not a JOLA and the other coin listed as dug examples and restored to cond, with this (apparently a year or so ago was a nice 200 y.o. cherry red UNC/BU/CH. Gem/Gem whatever example.

The story which I will not go into her proves to me and the other experts (and yes they are big timers) that at the least MB 1 is a fake and have been fakes- purposelessly put into the market for gain and that goin type 2, the ha.coins are the older counterfeits I was told about a while back.

No debate on the 1818's being real, but I feel and many, many many others feel we have yet to see a real 1817.

Andy feel free to PM me and get my number and we can discuss via of phone the info I have seen today and received today.

Hey guys, just my opinion, but I ma far from alone and the people that I collect alongside with deeper pockets and more complete collections wouldn't touch either with a 10' pole. Texas

MrEureka · July 10, 2012 6:33AM

Andy feel free to PM me and get my number and we can discuss

PM sent.

coinditz · November 12, 2012 1:27PM

My mom got several thousand coins and banknotes from my stepdad. I have been reading different threads on this forum for a long time, then I ran across this thread. I remembered seeing one of these little 1818 coins in the collection because I remembered the little star on the back. I thought the legend on the coin looked like arabic writing, and I didn't look closely at the coin. Not until yesterday when I found this thread. My dad was military and was at many bases around the world including Texas, and he was collecting coins for more than 35 years. I wanted to show this coin here but I can't figure out how to display it. If somebody can look at it I can attach to an email, and maybe they could attach the pics for me or guide me how to display it in this forum. Any help is very much appreciated.

derryb · November 12, 2012 1:33PM

<< My mom got several thousand coins and banknotes from my stepdad. I have been reading different threads on this forum for a long time, then I ran across this thread. I remembered seeing one of these little 1818 coins in the collection because I remembered the little star on the back. I thought the legend on the coin looked like arabic writing, and I didn't look closely at the coin. Not until yesterday when I found this thread. My dad was military and was at many bases around the world including Texas, and he was collecting coins for more than 35 years. I wanted to show this coin here but I can't figure out how to display it. If somebody can look at it I can attach to an email, and maybe they could attach the pics for me or guide me how to display it in this forum. Any help is very much appreciated. >>

It takes the right thread to bring a lurker out of the closet. Welcome. turn on your private message (PM) function in your preferences and I'll send the email address to get your pic posted here.

coinditz · November 15, 2012 11:51AM

Hi Metalnut,
I changed my profile to allow PM as you suggested. I appreciate if you can send me the information I need to post pictures here. I would like to show my 1818 jola coin. Thanks with regards

derryb · November 15, 2012 12:09PM

PM sent, click on "new messages" top lef of the screen

coachbedford · November 15, 2012 3:28PM

I too find this thread fascinating as I have always assumed no examples of 1817 jolas had come to light (fake or otherwise). A few years ago I had wild hopes I might have one..... a small crude hammered copper coin with "M" struck within a tiny circle on both sides and with what looked like a very tiny star at the base of one of those "M's"........ made me wonder, "Manuel Barrera"??

But both these 1817 examples look pretty convincing though perhaps neither is real.

Staircoins · November 15, 2012 10:23PM

Jim Bevill gave a compelling presentation on these coins (the 1817 Jolas) at the Dallas ANA. I was undecided prior to viewing his evidence, but now believe that at least the examples that he discussed are genuine.

His presentation was recorded. I do not know if the video is available.

coinditz · November 19, 2012 9:46PM

Thanks to Metalnut, here are the pics of my 1818 Texas lonestar Jola coin. I hope I did this right. Any comments?

derryb · November 20, 2012 1:13AM

<< Thanks to Metalnut, here are the pics of my 1818 Texas lonestar Jola coin. I hope I did this right. Any comments? >>

Something wasn't right, here's your pics:

STONE · November 20, 2012 2:01AM

Although my knowledge of this issue is almost 0, I don't like most recent photo's.
Something doesn't seem right about them...the edges of the designs are too crisp.
I would be inclined to say it is a reproduction, but that is just a BIG guess at this point

EDITED TO ASK: Could this be an 1817 Texas Jola?

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