I think the back of that greiling schmeling helps us. I think schmeling won his first european title in 1927 (june, maybe?). Before that he held a german title. So, it is looking like a mid 1927 release for that color greiling schmeling, at the earliest.
From Wiki: He proved Dempsey's praises correct on August 24, 1926, when picking up the German light heavyweight championship with a first round knockout of rival Max Diekmann, who had previously beaten Schmeling. The next year, Schmeling won the European championship by stopping Fernand Delarge in the first boxing match broadcast live in Germany. After defending both titles against Hein Domgoergen the same year and, in 1928, the European Title with a first round knockout of Michele Bonaglia, he secured the German heavyweight championship with a point victory against Franz Diener, and decided to chase bigger fights and bigger purses in the United States.
Not sure if you were referring to German light heavyweight title (1926) or German heavyweight title (1928).
Both of those cards I posted are the exact same front, this one:
I should point out, the album I got the residue one out of also contained the colorized Schmeling that is posted previously in the PSA 3 slab. If I'm not mistaken, these are the cards that have both a small and large version. If that's the case, they're 1927 as I have large versions of a few of the Dempsey/Tunney fight cards.
With all due respect to my friend, his list is out of date and hasn't been maintained in quite some time. Probably due to alcholo abuse killing his brain cells. There's more holes in that list than a slice of swiss cheese.
If you look at the PSA registry for Dempsey, the #2 set owner was kind enough to post images to his set. His 1926 Greiling of Dempsey is B&W, while all the colorized Greilings he has are 1927 (again, according to PSA, who should by no means be considered to have done their due diligence on issue dates). I don't believe there are colorized Greilings from 1926.
The Greiling set is definitely one of the most confusing sets I have ever run across. For the most part I stay away from it, but it crossed my path in my Heabyweight Champ Rookie card collection because I need the earliest known card of Schmeling. I remember from my research on the different Greiling sets from years ago that the only Boxing cards that were definitely from 1926 were the Black and White series with the shirtless upper body portrait photo of Max Schmeling in it. The other series from this set range anywhere from 1927-1932 with the color cards being from 1927 as the earliest possible date. I could be wrong with this completely now because new evidence could have come out about the different series, but I pretty much agree with Alan on the dates. I am not saying this because I own the BVG 7 B&W Greiling Schmeling. I own the 1926 B&W Greiling Schmeling because of the things I say haha. My original question was how rare this card actually is? Once I decided on creating my Heavyweight Champ Rookie Collection I immediately started to look for this specific card because I knew it was the earliest known Schmeling card and I knew I had only ever run in to one before in my collecting history (and the owner of that one said he would never sell it because he thought it was the only one in existence). There are 0 PSA (the 1926 that is graded is a color copy, which I believe to be from 1927 but I could be wrong) or SGC graded copies of this card and Beckett tells me I own the only one graded by them. Other than the one that I own and the one that will never be sold (which is in PSA Authentic to PSA 1, if they are generous with the grade, type shape) how many of this Max Schmeling card are out there??? Alan, do you have one? Does anyone else have one in their collection?
But, I do have something to add to the rarity conversation. It's tough. But, gettable. Scour German eBay ( ebay.de) as they pop up in group lots about once every six months. You gotta have a sharp eye to spot the card in the pile of other cards. Also, here's a fun one: from the recent legendary auction of the Dreier collection, there was an auction for some Casanova boxing cards (both series). In the group was the ultra rare Casanova Schmeling. I believe it is the same shirtless pose. Check the auction results. No link as I am on my phone right now. The rare Casanova series also had battling siki in it. I have a hunch this set was released in 1926 as well. The series with siki Schmeling and mostly German club fighters, not the more common ( but still tough Casanova series with Dempsey and jack Johnson). So, if it is 1926, it's his rookie as well.
I also have a fun French Schmeling chocolate card, will post a scan when I can. Alan
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
Tom, I would take Alan's opinion on the matter over mine as he spends much more time looking at and searching German cards, but I've definitely seen that card at least a handful of times previously. A lot of foreign stuff doesn't see the light of day until demand and prices call for them. Schmeling isn't a popular fighter on the registry like Louis, Dempsey, Ali or Jack Johnson. His cards don't command much on the open market. I wouldn't say he was in the bottom-tier of IBHOFers but he's not close to the elite tier. If his cards start to command high prices I'm guessing you would start to see more of his cards show up in auctions.
That's not to say that the 26 Greiling isn't difficult, just that even if there are only a dozen or so known at the moment, that's still more than enough to cover any demand. Of course, all of those things could change at any moment. I've learned that trying to predict the future trends in the hobby is an exercise in futility.
I agree about the possibility of there being more than I know of with this card and because it is a foreign issue they may all still be in Germany, but for the past year+ I have been scouring for this card and have not found it anywhere. I have found the other B&W Schmeling but had no idea what year that was from, so I stayed away. It could have just been a case of me looking for something and not being able to find it and now that I have it, and paid a good amount for it, I will find 10 of them haha. That is usually the way it works. I am just hoping that I have the best conditioned one now. I looked sporadically at the German ebay but clearly not enough. Reggie, where have you seen a handful of them? Am I going to be kicking myself for not looking in an obvious spot, or have you just seen them at random shows?
Now that I have found this card it is on to the next one. I am searching for a Floyd Patterson card that predates his 1958 DC Thompson card. There has to be one and we just haven't found it yet. Jason and I just found a 1952 Ingemar Johansson card for our rookie collections, which predates his Heinerle card (which isn't really from 1958 anyways because it shows him as champion, which didnt happen until 1959) and I am hoping to do the same with Floyd Patterson. If you guys have any leads on any Floyd Patterson from before 1958 than I am all ears.
Tom, about 5-6 years ago I was practically living on the German ebay trying to catalogue and obtain all the different back variations for the 1929 Die Wilt en Bildern set. That's primarily when I remember seeing them.
I can relate to you searching for the card and finding nothing. I've spent years looking for some cards. Some of them turn out to be difficult and others start to suface regularly when foreign sellers see the demand for them in the States. Schmeling cards are tough to gauge. But if you want to find any foreign card my suggestion would be to familiarize yourself with the foreign ebay, see how those sellers list and describe their auctions, pay attention to any possible search loopholes foreign ebay might have, and adjust your searching accordingly. It can be a long and frustrating journey but it will almost always payoff if you're truly ahead of the curve.
Either way, you got a cool card that you've been looking for for a long time. That's always cause for celebration. Congrats.
Is this the Greiling Schmeling that usually shows up because I.have seen this one a bunch of times but had never seen my version come up until the BVG 7.
Get used to it, Tom. Boxing cards are very much like the wikd west, a great deal of them still have yet to be discovered and catalogued. Unlike baseball cards, where just about everything under the sun is known, new sets that were previously unknown to exist surface with great regularity. It's probably my favorite aspect about them.
<< <i>Why did you tell me about the Casanova Schmeling? Now I have a new card I want for my Schmeling rookie. I was so happy before and you ruined it haha. >>
Sorry, Tom
If it makes you feel better, I can't confirm that the Casanova Schmeling was released in 1926. It's only a hunch. Some people feel that the Casanovas were released as late as 1930 (these people would be wrong, lol). But, If you are just after Schmeling's rookie, you could skip the Casanova because the year of issue is unconfirmed. Hope that makes you feel better. It's how I get to sleep at night (at least for a few hours).
Mr. Cleveland is correct, though. Finding new cards is the fun part. And I also agree with him when he says that the Schmeling from the auction I highlighted shows up less frequently than the schmeling you bought in bvg 7 (the one that seems to have taken over this thread, lol. Sorry, Eagles).
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
On the subject of determining date (year) of issuance of Greiling boxing cards, here is another example of a Greiling boxing card with a different style of back side:
I think the back of this Sharkey card I have matches up with the back of the Jack Dempsey card with the scrapbook residue that RC posted a page ago. I don't know how to speak German but obviously by the text on this one it must have been issued at least in 1930 if not later.
Funny that PSA tried to distinguish between 1926 and 1927 issuance with these, but it almost looks like after a point they just give up and instead go with a date range of 1928-1932, as seen on this card. If there's so much unknown about the other years, it is a little surprising they didn't just go with 1926-1932 as a range instead. I prefer to know the specific year instead of having a range on the flip, but if there just isn't enough data, I guess I see how some of this happened. Still, things seem inconsistent and confusing with these, relative to graded examples.
Now, it's all well and good that they labeled this Sharkey card as they did, but it confuses me more to also have this one as a 1928-1932:
Obviously, a very different style of front and back from the Sharkey card, as this is black & white instead of color, no text on front, and the back is significantly different as well.
I don't own any of the black and white Schmeling or other Greiling cards referenced earlier in this thread that are supposed to be from 1926. What do the back sides look like on those? Do they match what's on this Kahanamoku?
I know new (vintage) boxing cards pop up all of the time. That is part of the reason why I chose boxing in the first place. I love to find the new rarest rookies of star players/boxers and the 4 major American sports have all already been found. With boxing it is still wide open. For my Heavyweight Champ Rookie Collection (starting with Dempsey) I have 25 cards total that I am after. Of those 25 I have already found 13 of them. Of the 13 I have found, 6 of them are the only copies of the card known to exist and will be the first one graded when submitted (the 1950 BEA Ezzard Charles and the 1952 Swedish Black and White Blank Backed Ingemar Johansson are examples of this), while 5 of the 7 remaining are extrememly low population, meaning less than 5 in the pop report (examples being my 1919 Underwood and Underwood Jack Dempsey and the afforementioned 1926 Greiling Max Schmeling BVG 7, although this is currently the only graded example). So, boxing allows me to find earlier cards of these heavyweight champs than the cards that are regularly discussed as their rookies.
I have no idea how to post pictures to this forum. It keeps asking for a URL. Just email me at oldmanvintagecards@gmail.com and I will send you over the scans of the 1/1 cards that I have in my rookie collection.
Also eagles33, if you are still looking for a rookie card of Jack Dempsey then I have an extra 1919 Underwood and Underwood Jack Dempsey rookie card if you are interested. Let me know. My email is in the post above this.
Tom, don't put too much stock in PSA's pop report when gauging rarity. Many of the boxing card collectors I know don't sub routinely to TPGers. I'd say 95% of my collection is slab-free.
Eagles, the 1920 U&U cards are post card sized, unnumbered, blank backed, and either depict Dempsey or Willard. Almost certainly a promotional issue for the fight, which would make 1919 the most logical release date.
For some reason they've been selling like hot cakes on ebay lately. I'm guessing PSA deciding to start grading them recently has helped. I used to have 6 of them but gave 3 or 4 away when I was selling in 08. I thought I might still have a small hoarde but I went digging through my PC box yesterday and I only left myself one.
The picture posting is really frustrating. I have now tried the URL from the page my picture is on and the URL that was sent.to me in an email of the picture, what am I doing wrong? Why can't I just post a picture like a normal site instead of going through a photo sharing site. This is ridiculous haha.
Getting back to the subject in the OP, does anyone know what would be considered the rookie or first issue of Valentino Rossi? Possibly obscure for most of the members of this board, but Rossi is just about as big as it gets as far as fame and stardom from professional sports, just not in the US. I know of a 1997 panini issue but wondering about others that may be earlier.
Understandable. In America, usually the only people who know him are the small percentage of non-squid sport bike riders who either take interest in 2-wheel racing or participate in track days themselves. He's huge in most other parts of the world though. In many countries, especially Italy, he's bigger than any rock star. The guy has had tents full of fans camping outside his house for 15 years now.
SOCCER Franz Beckenbauer Eusebio Da Silva Alfredo Di Stefano Johan Cruyff Diego Maradona Lev Jascin (Yascin) George Best Mia Hamm
GOLF Gary Player
OLYMPICS Stein Ericksen Alberto Tomba Marc Giradelli Picabo Street Sonja Henie Nadia Commanecci Jim Thorpe (cards other than football) Paavo Nurmi Donna Weinbrecht
OTHER Glen Plake Cammi Granato Hayley Wickenheiser
RACING Valentino Rossi Mike Hailwood
SURFING (and related) Duke Kahanamoku Kelly Slater Laird Hamilton Eddie Aikau Robby Naish
TENNIS Billie Jean King Chris Evert Martina Navritalova
I used to have a ton of Edigammas, I can check to see if I have a Rossi. What card number is he again?
BUYING Frank Gotch T229 Kopec Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
Comments
Familar article, rc?
I think the back of that greiling schmeling helps us. I think schmeling won his first european title in 1927 (june, maybe?). Before that he held a german title. So, it is looking like a mid 1927 release for that color greiling schmeling, at the earliest.
From Wiki: He proved Dempsey's praises correct on August 24, 1926, when picking up the German light heavyweight championship with a first round knockout of rival Max Diekmann, who had previously beaten Schmeling. The next year, Schmeling won the European championship by stopping Fernand Delarge in the first boxing match broadcast live in Germany. After defending both titles against Hein Domgoergen the same year and, in 1928, the European Title with a first round knockout of Michele Bonaglia, he secured the German heavyweight championship with a point victory against Franz Diener, and decided to chase bigger fights and bigger purses in the United States.
Not sure if you were referring to German light heavyweight title (1926) or German heavyweight title (1928).
I should point out, the album I got the residue one out of also contained the colorized Schmeling that is posted previously in the PSA 3 slab. If I'm not mistaken, these are the cards that have both a small and large version. If that's the case, they're 1927 as I have large versions of a few of the Dempsey/Tunney fight cards.
With all due respect to my friend, his list is out of date and hasn't been maintained in quite some time. Probably due to alcholo abuse killing his brain cells. There's more holes in that list than a slice of swiss cheese.
If you look at the PSA registry for Dempsey, the #2 set owner was kind enough to post images to his set. His 1926 Greiling of Dempsey is B&W, while all the colorized Greilings he has are 1927 (again, according to PSA, who should by no means be considered to have done their due diligence on issue dates). I don't believe there are colorized Greilings from 1926.
I used to (or maybe I still do) own this card. Blank back except for a hand stamp
In case the link doesnt work: http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1929-panama-al-brown-very-rare-greiling-boxing
Anyone that doesn't know what Schmeling card I am talking about then there is a picture of it in this auction (It is the 5th card pictured):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/290495346213?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Any help with this is appreciated.
-Tom
But, I do have something to add to the rarity conversation. It's tough. But, gettable. Scour German eBay ( ebay.de) as they pop up in group lots about once every six months. You gotta have a sharp eye to spot the card in the pile of other cards. Also, here's a fun one: from the recent legendary auction of the Dreier collection, there was an auction for some Casanova boxing cards (both series). In the group was the ultra rare Casanova Schmeling. I believe it is the same shirtless pose. Check the auction results. No link as I am on my phone right now. The rare Casanova series also had battling siki in it. I have a hunch this set was released in 1926 as well. The series with siki Schmeling and mostly German club fighters, not the more common ( but still tough Casanova series with Dempsey and jack Johnson). So, if it is 1926, it's his rookie as well.
I also have a fun French Schmeling chocolate card, will post a scan when I can. Alan
That's not to say that the 26 Greiling isn't difficult, just that even if there are only a dozen or so known at the moment, that's still more than enough to cover any demand. Of course, all of those things could change at any moment. I've learned that trying to predict the future trends in the hobby is an exercise in futility.
Now that I have found this card it is on to the next one. I am searching for a Floyd Patterson card that predates his 1958 DC Thompson card. There has to be one and we just haven't found it yet. Jason and I just found a 1952 Ingemar Johansson card for our rookie collections, which predates his Heinerle card (which isn't really from 1958 anyways because it shows him as champion, which didnt happen until 1959) and I am hoping to do the same with Floyd Patterson. If you guys have any leads on any Floyd Patterson from before 1958 than I am all ears.
Tom
This is the auction for another b&w schmeling
Here is the address in case the link doesnt work: http://www.ebay.de/itm/390538317912?nma=true&si=G7K1/kv9qd7VPnOUF2Bk1ZTkaxw=&rt=nc&_trksid=p4340.l2557&orig_cvip=true#ht_500wt_922
I can relate to you searching for the card and finding nothing. I've spent years looking for some cards. Some of them turn out to be difficult and others start to suface regularly when foreign sellers see the demand for them in the States. Schmeling cards are tough to gauge. But if you want to find any foreign card my suggestion would be to familiarize yourself with the foreign ebay, see how those sellers list and describe their auctions, pay attention to any possible search loopholes foreign ebay might have, and adjust your searching accordingly. It can be a long and frustrating journey but it will almost always payoff if you're truly ahead of the curve.
Either way, you got a cool card that you've been looking for for a long time. That's always cause for celebration. Congrats.
<< <i>Alan, none of your links are working for me. >>
I cant figure it out, lol. But if you copy and paste the link from my previous post, it should work. If not, i can email you the link. Alan
<< <i>Why did you tell me about the Casanova Schmeling? Now I have a new card I want for my Schmeling rookie. I was so happy before and you ruined it haha. >>
Sorry, Tom
If it makes you feel better, I can't confirm that the Casanova Schmeling was released in 1926. It's only a hunch. Some people feel that the Casanovas were released as late as 1930 (these people would be wrong, lol). But, If you are just after Schmeling's rookie, you could skip the Casanova because the year of issue is unconfirmed.
Mr. Cleveland is correct, though. Finding new cards is the fun part. And I also agree with him when he says that the Schmeling from the auction I highlighted shows up less frequently than the schmeling you bought in bvg 7 (the one that seems to have taken over this thread, lol. Sorry, Eagles).
I think the back of this Sharkey card I have matches up with the back of the Jack Dempsey card with the scrapbook residue that RC posted a page ago. I don't know how to speak German but obviously by the text on this one it must have been issued at least in 1930 if not later.
Funny that PSA tried to distinguish between 1926 and 1927 issuance with these, but it almost looks like after a point they just give up and instead go with a date range of 1928-1932, as seen on this card. If there's so much unknown about the other years, it is a little surprising they didn't just go with 1926-1932 as a range instead. I prefer to know the specific year instead of having a range on the flip, but if there just isn't enough data, I guess I see how some of this happened. Still, things seem inconsistent and confusing with these, relative to graded examples.
Now, it's all well and good that they labeled this Sharkey card as they did, but it confuses me more to also have this one as a 1928-1932:
Obviously, a very different style of front and back from the Sharkey card, as this is black & white instead of color, no text on front, and the back is significantly different as well.
I don't own any of the black and white Schmeling or other Greiling cards referenced earlier in this thread that are supposed to be from 1926. What do the back sides look like on those? Do they match what's on this Kahanamoku?
Tom
can I see a scan of the Johansson?
Thanks.
Alan
I have no idea how to post pictures to this forum. It keeps asking for a URL. Just email me at oldmanvintagecards@gmail.com and I will send you over the scans of the 1/1 cards that I have in my rookie collection.
Tom
Eagles, the 1920 U&U cards are post card sized, unnumbered, blank backed, and either depict Dempsey or Willard. Almost certainly a promotional issue for the fight, which would make 1919 the most logical release date.
For some reason they've been selling like hot cakes on ebay lately. I'm guessing PSA deciding to start grading them recently has helped. I used to have 6 of them but gave 3 or 4 away when I was selling in 08. I thought I might still have a small hoarde but I went digging through my PC box yesterday and I only left myself one.
What does the back side of the 1926 Greiling black and white Schmeling look like?
<< <i>Hey guys,
What does the back side of the 1926 Greiling black and white Schmeling look like? >>
<< <i>What website.do you guys use to share the pics on here? >>
photobucket.com
Hopefully this works. I believe these backs are the only ones from 1926.
SOCCER
Franz Beckenbauer
Eusebio Da Silva
Alfredo Di Stefano
Johan Cruyff
Diego Maradona
Lev Jascin (Yascin)
George Best
Mia Hamm
GOLF
Gary Player
OLYMPICS
Stein Ericksen
Alberto Tomba
Marc Giradelli
Picabo Street
Sonja Henie
Nadia Commanecci
Jim Thorpe (cards other than football)
Paavo Nurmi
Donna Weinbrecht
OTHER
Glen Plake
Cammi Granato
Hayley Wickenheiser
RACING
Valentino Rossi
Mike Hailwood
SURFING (and related)
Duke Kahanamoku
Kelly Slater
Laird Hamilton
Eddie Aikau
Robby Naish
TENNIS
Billie Jean King
Chris Evert
Martina Navritalova
Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
On a separate topic, anyone have an email address for oldmanvintagecards?