end 2 cards are 1921 (W551 style), the 2nd card from left with surface damage is 1923 (W515 group style), and both horizontal cards are from 1920 (W516 group style)..
Dempsey was the Heavyweight champion in 1919, so it would make sense there would be cards issued right away and not 3 years later like the so called rookie card on your list...
also where is Jack Johnson? he'd kick everyones ass on the entire list... not 100% sure if this is the first card but its early 1908 Ogdens Jack Johnson >>
In fairness to the OP, he isn't creating a hobby resource, he's simply compiling a personal list for himself.
There's also no way to establish a consensus on what constitutes a rookie card for boxing cards. Personally, I couldn't care less what a fighter's rookie card is. I've said it before but there's probably dozens of cards I'd rather have than any fighter's perceived rookie card.
The strip cards are never going to be as popular and commonly accepted by the hobby as a card that was inserted as a premium (tobacco, gum, candy, etc). Aside from strip cards, there really isn't much of anything for Dempsey in the card category prior to 1922. That's not to say that something won't surface in the future (previously uncatalogued items pop up at least a few times a year) but show me a 1920 or 1921 non-strip card issue. Not sure one is known at the moment.
Well, a 1920 Juncosa Chocolates Notabilidades De La Pantalla No. 2 Jack Dempsey just sold on ebay on January 6. Check out item no. 130828488873
PSA identifies this card on the population report as being from 1920. However, the back side clearly references the July 2, 1921 Dempsey/Carpentier fight in the past tense, so PSA must have this one wrong, as its issuance is more likely from late 1921 or sometime in 1922. Wouldn't be the first time PSA had a year entered incorrectly on their files by any means, but it still may qualify for your request for a pre-1922 card issued as a premium w/ cigarettes, gum, candy, etc.
<< <i>Well, a 1920 Juncosa Chocolates Notabilidades De La Pantalla No. 2 Jack Dempsey just sold on ebay on January 6. Check out item no. 130828488873
PSA identifies this card on the population report as being from 1920. However, the back side clearly references the July 2, 1921 Dempsey/Carpentier fight in the past tense, so PSA must have this one wrong, as its issuance is more likely from late 1921 or sometime in 1922. Wouldn't be the first time PSA had a year entered incorrectly on their files by any means, but it still may qualify for your request for a pre-1922 card issued as a premium w/ cigarettes, gum, candy, etc. >>
If I recall correctly, PSA slabs this card as "1920s" but it shows up in pop report and set registry lists as 1920 (without the 's'). The card is not from 1920. My best guess is a 1924-25 issue date.
Same with the Perales Los Ases de la Pantalla. Not sure why PSA did this but when the cards were submitted they labeled them with a decade date (1920s).
I need to research the Dempsey rc. The pop report has a few tobacco cards from 1920. I would prefer one of those over a strip card but I'm not 100% sure they are actually from 1920. I don't want to make the same mistake I did with the joe Louis. I might start a new thread discussing options for his rc. I did this pele and Ali and seemed to be a good discussion. I've been thinking about adding some of the older boxing guys like Sullivan and Johnson too. I think they both have a consensus rc though that shouldn't be too difficult. I really like the addition of Kahanamoku. Great suggestion. I never really heard of him until I read the wiki page. I think it's key card that would be a nice addition to the xgames/surfing genre or Olympics.
also where is Jack Johnson? he'd kick everyones ass on the entire list... >>
I agree - Jack Johnson & John L. Sullivan should always make a list like this.
With that said, the OP has been great about updating this list, and it's an ever-evolving project. I think he's done a great job so far compiling the data he has. I wish there were more resources like this for misc sports cards of the past.
<< <i>I need to research the Dempsey rc. The pop report has a few tobacco cards from 1920. I would prefer one of those over a strip card but I'm not 100% sure they are actually from 1920. >>
There aren't any 1920 tobacco cards. If you look at the pop report, you'll find:
1920 Underwood & Underwood -- A two card, post card-sized issue that also includes Jess Willard. Most likely a product of their 1919 fight and most likely a correct issue date of 1920. 1920 W521 Decalco -- not sure if PSA slabs these strip cards as 1920's but I've seen no definitive reference to a 1920 issue date in any other hobby resources. Probably a guess by PSA. 1920 W529-X -- Issued in 1925, according to Warshaw's book 1920 Juncosa -- slabbed 1920's, most likely a mid-20s issue (deicted in movie makeup) 1920 Perales -- almost certainly slabbed 1920's -- most likely a mid-20s issue (Dempsey depicted in makeup so would almost certainly be issued after his venture to Hollywood in 1923-24)
That is everything currently in the pop report listed as "1920." The only 1921 issues are the RyJ (seriously doubt a 1921 issue date based on other fighters depicted in the set) and the W551 (which has a 1921-1922 issue date in Warshaw's book). Everything after that is 1922.
For me, as much as I like the U&U issue, it's a bit too PC for my interpretation of a conventional rookie card. If we include that then we need to include some 1919-1921 post cards and that's not going to go over well, I'm guessing. So if you're inclined to include the strip cards you're probably looking at W551 as your earliest issue. Outside of the strip cards, you've got a plethora of options in 1922.
Any thoughts on this? I know it's a PC but it looks like its closer to the size of a 52 topps card and would fit in a regular holder. I kinda like it if its really a 1919 issue.
I personally don't like the idea of using a postcard, exhibit or strip card as a rookie - but that's just me. I'm sure others will disagree. I always consider an actual trading card to be a rookie. I think this may be how we decided on the 1922 Champion as our Dempsey rookie card of choice, in the first place. With that said, there may be some other foreign "cards" that predate the Champion issue. I believe his Felix Potin card (which I love), was issued in 1922, as well.
<< <i>What do you make of this one? Supposedly a 1921 issue.
ebay item no. 400369711289 >>
Those are a series of stamp stickers, issued 3/week. Dempsey was issued in June 24th, 1922.
The Boy's Magazine is a 1922 issue.
That BVG slab is an oversized one, so don't judge the size of the card based on its dimensions relative to the slab. There are plenty of post cards issued 1919-1921 depicting Dempsey. We all probably have our own interpretation of what a rookie card is. I don't concern myself too much with it as I'd rather gauge an item's value by rarity, but I would think that if one's goal was to identify the most widely accepted item then you're probably looking at a tobacco/candy/gum/etc insert, hence 1922.
Looking at 1922, the Felix Potin is definitely the most desirable issue. The Champion cards are a dime a dozen, I don't even own one anymore. The Boy's Magazine seems underappreciated but attainable without too much difficulty. The Felix Potin is a tough card. All 3rd Serie Potin cards are extremely tough compared to the first two series, probably in a 5-10% range. Not sure why they were produced with such fewer numbers but when you're talking about a set that gets issued once every 10 years a lot can change from set to set. I'm sure WWI had something to do with it as well, although I don't consider myself a history buff so I'm not sure how hard France got hammered.
<< <i>I personally don't like the idea of using a postcard, exhibit or strip card as a rookie - but that's just me. I'm sure others will disagree. I always consider an actual trading card to be a rookie. I think this may be how we decided on the 1922 Champion as our Dempsey rookie card of choice, in the first place. With that said, there may be some other foreign "cards" that predate the Champion issue. I believe his Felix Potin card (which I love), was issued in 1922, as well.
>>
Nice card. I would def prefer a card that depicts him as a boxer over an actor. What does this card usually sell for?
I don't have a VCP subscription anymore, hopefully someone that does can chime in.
They don't come up for sale very often. There have been 7 graded by PSA, 2 were submitted by me. The top 4 Dempsey set registries all have one in their set. To me, this card is still in the "grade irrelevant" category, meaning, if I were looking to buy one it wouldn't matter to me what the card technically graded because they're so tough to find. The recession and the set registry guys already having one hurts the card's value on the open market. I would expect to pay at least a couple hundred dollars for one when it pops up again. My $0.02
On the subject of boxing, for Max Schmeling, is there a reason to select one over the other as his "rookie card" between his two different 1926 issues?
1926 Greiling Serie Boxer, no. 2
1926 Greiling Bunte Bilder Serie Boxer (large), no. 2
I have both of them. Not sure how much more rare the Bunte Bilder is than the smaller one. PSA will only grade the first one. SGC will grade both. I'm curious about an approximate value for each of these, but there don't seem to be any others of either one besides the ones I own, as far as I've been able to determine so far.
<< <i>Nice card. I would def prefer a card that depicts him as a boxer over an actor. What does this card usually sell for? >>
I used to own the Felix Potin Dempsey PSA 7, I posted. I actually submitted the card raw, and I don't think a nicer example will ever surface. I sold mine in a big package deal to one of the registry guys. I'm not sure how much it would bring by itself, at auction, but I think a copy in a PSA 2 could easily bring $300 (if that gives you an idea of value).
<< <i>On the subject of boxing, for Max Schmeling, is there a reason to select one over the other as his "rookie card" between his two different 1926 issues?
1926 Greiling Serie Boxer, no. 2
1926 Greiling Bunte Bilder Serie Boxer (large), no. 2
I have both of them. Not sure how much more rare the Bunte Bilder is than the smaller one. PSA will only grade the first one. SGC will grade both. I'm curious about an approximate value for each of these, but there don't seem to be any others of either one besides the ones I own, as far as I've been able to determine so far. >>
I haven't seen enough to think that either one is tougher than the other. Unfortunately, Schmeling doesn't command much on the open market despite having a decent following on the set registry. Of course, you'd want to have the card added to his set registry before trying to sell it. I've got a copy of the small version still glued into an album page. After trying to soak off the Dempsey and not being able to cleanly, I'm just leaving the Schmeling glued onto the page.
There appears to be only two people on his registry that are seriously going after his player set. RAS mostly does complete sets and then just adds his cards to player set registries. He also doesn't appear to have much of a grasp on what is and what isn't rare. I've seen him drop hundreds on common cards and then pass on very difficult cards for a fraction of that common price. I don't know enough about the Schmeling market to speculate but in my minimal experience I'd be shocked if it got over $100. Just not enough demand.
Schmeling is definitely no Joe Louis, John Sullivan, Jack Dempsey, etc. when it comes to interest by collectors, that's for sure, but there does seem to be enough following that his cards might at least be worth having graded before selling. There are more different ones of his too, pretty much due to the fact that he is German and there were so many German issue sets in the 20's and 30's, relative to other nations. I think his history w/ Joe Louis fights is the main factor that keeps his items more relevant than other more common fighters.
<< <i>On the subject of boxing, for Max Schmeling, is there a reason to select one over the other as his "rookie card" between his two different 1926 issues?
1926 Greiling Serie Boxer, no. 2
1926 Greiling Bunte Bilder Serie Boxer (large), no. 2
I have both of them. Not sure how much more rare the Bunte Bilder is than the smaller one. PSA will only grade the first one. SGC will grade both. I'm curious about an approximate value for each of these, but there don't seem to be any others of either one besides the ones I own, as far as I've been able to determine so far. >>
I haven't seen enough to think that either one is tougher than the other. Unfortunately, Schmeling doesn't command much on the open market despite having a decent following on the set registry. Of course, you'd want to have the card added to his set registry before trying to sell it. I've got a copy of the small version still glued into an album page. After trying to soak off the Dempsey and not being able to cleanly, I'm just leaving the Schmeling glued onto the page.
There appears to be only two people on his registry that are seriously going after his player set. RAS mostly does complete sets and then just adds his cards to player set registries. He also doesn't appear to have much of a grasp on what is and what isn't rare. I've seen him drop hundreds on common cards and then pass on very difficult cards for a fraction of that common price. I don't know enough about the Schmeling market to speculate but in my minimal experience I'd be shocked if it got over $100. Just not enough demand. >>
The ACTUAL schmeling rookie is difficult to pinpoint. I think the greiling cards (in general) are hard to date accurately. They were issued over a number of years. Many people say that the black and white greilings were issued first. Others say that the color ones were issued first. Me? I am not sure. This is a black and white one (there are others). Schmeling black and white greiling Here is the back: Schmeling black and white Greiling (back) This is my favorite Greiling Schmeling: Color Greiling Schmeling
I own neither (anymore).
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
I wanted to send in my large Strangler Lewis Greiling in to go with the small one but from the sound of it PSA will not grade it?
BUYING Frank Gotch T229 Kopec Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
<< <i>I wanted to send in my large Strangler Lewis Greiling in to go with the small one but from the sound of it PSA will not grade it? >>
PSA seems to have a problem grading the larger (coupon removed) versions of the greilings, even though that is what the manufacturer intended be done with the card (clip the coupon). If your Lewis has the coupon intact, they will grade it. Honestly I am not sure why they don't grade them with the coupon removed. My best guess is ignorance. They grade zeenuts with the coupon removed, don't they? Or am I wrong?
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
BUYING Frank Gotch T229 Kopec Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
I actually just purchased a 1926 Greiling Max Schmeling graded BVG 7. I collect Heavyweight Champ rookie cards and this card is next to impossible to find in any grade (I only knew of one other copy before this one popped up). Here is a link to the auction: 1926 GREILING MAX SCHMELING RC BVG 7 HOF ROOKIE 1 OF 1 .
Sorry here is a link: http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=271166631449. I bought it off of eBay. Does PSA grade this version because from all.of the research I have done this Greiling Schmeling is the only that is definitely from 1926. PSA doesn't show any in their pop reports but that doesn't surprise.me with how rare this version is. I have seen multiple copies of the black and white version with him standing in a fighting position but this is only the second one of this copy I have ever seen. Does anyone have another one of this version of the 1926 Schneling?
I'll be the first to admit that I don't follow Schmeling cards -- how often they come up, what they sell for, etc. It's been years since I've bought a Schmeling card (not including ones in a set I'm collecting or any that came in a lot or album that I bought) but I've definitely seen that B&W card plenty of times before. That's not to say it isn't difficult, as I've been searching for foreign boxing cards for a good 6 years now; not very long but long enough.
It's good that people are starting to do work on his cards though. His player set reg is bare bones and I'm sure there are a TON of more Schmeling cards out there that haven't been graded by PSA. Germany was a massive producer of tobacco cards in the 20s and 30s and Schmeling was, obviously, a huge national hero for them.
I am fairly certain that the black and white Schmeling purchased in BVG 7 is from 1926, and would qualify as his "rookie." I am not sure that the color greiling cards were released in 1926. My best guess on the color ones, now, is 1928, and MAYBE late 1927. Of course this is just a guess, albeit an educated one.
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
Alan, the color ones from (supposedly) 1926 are the ones that come in two sizes, right? If I'm not mistaken, there are Dempsey/Tunney fight cards in that set, which would pretty much eliminate 1926.
The color ones have a different back than the 1927 Dempsey/Tunney fight cards (I've got those too). I'll try to post scans after I figure out how to do it on this board.
<< <i>Alan, the color ones from (supposedly) 1926 are the ones that come in two sizes, right? If I'm not mistaken, there are Dempsey/Tunney fight cards in that set, which would pretty much eliminate 1926. >>
Ahh, Greiling.
Take everything you are about to read as being my best guess on things.
The black and white Greilings come in small and large size AND they are printed on different "stocks" of paper, ranging from extremely thin paper, to cardboard. Additionally, the first 100 (maybe 200) cards in the soccer set came in sheet form and were separated, thus you can find some with perforations on them. I believe the same is true for the boxing cards as well (as I have a couple with perforations on them). I believe these black and white cards were issued in 1926 and 1927, and in two extremely large (something like 900 cards each) sets. I think the size of the set is a decent indication that the cards were released over a period of time rather than all at once.
The color Greilings are a completely different animal. Let's take the boxing cards, since that's the topic at hand. I think there were some Color boxing cards issued as early as 1926 but I am not sure. The "usual" serie boxer cards that we see on ebay were issued in something like 20 series of 14 (or so) cards in each series. They were issued in two versions: small and large. The large version came with a coupon attached which could be torn off and redeemed. The small version had the coupon on the back, so the small version WAS the coupon which could be redeemed (I think for tobacco, but I am still not sure). Would this indicate that the small ones are more rare? Not sure, but maybe? Lol. I believe greiling began issuing the color cards in late 1927/early 1928 Then, I believe that Greiling re-issued boxing cards (often using the same image on the front, with different font/name placement on the front, and under different set names/series on the back, all the way through 1932 (at least).
The Tunney-Dempsey fight cards series is another unique animal. Since the first fight was at the end of 1926 (am I remembering that correctly?), I don't think that series could have been released until 1927. I am not sure about the Tunney-Dempsey cards, as I am not sure about any of the other unique series of cards that depicted things like wrestling holds and judo moves.
Hope some of this helps. Alan
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
Thanks Alan. That was simultaneously very informative and extremely confusing.
PSA lists a Greiling set in their pop report as 1926, under which they list a Tunney card and a Dempsey card. I'm assuming these are the colorized cards as I don't believe (but could be wrong) that there aren't any Dempsey or Tunney cards in the B&W set that is depicted above with he Schmeling card. The first Dempsey/Tunney fight was 9/22/1926 so the odds of any foreign set that depicts Dempsey/Tunney fight scenes on cards being issued in 1926 are pretty small.
I'm basically illiterate when it comes to Greiling cards. I can't identify them by set name or series but know which ones are tougher than others by the image on the front.
Wanted to add that I am basing my dating of both the black and white and the color greilings on a hundred different things.
Including, for example, that Richard Hoffman appears on BOTH his black and white AND his color greiling cards representing the team Meerane 07. He played on this club until the end of the 1926/27 season, before switching to Dresden for the 1927/28 season. However, there is a color greiling cards that depicts team captains shaking hands before the 1928 English Cup Final that took place in APril 1928 Click here. Card is located halfway down the page.. So...LONG STORY SHORT, I believe that both series were issued over a period of years, rather than just all at once on a specific date (or during a specific year).
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
From the research I had done regarding the color variety (comprised of examining images of graded examples I found plus emailing with sellers & collectors who live in Germany), I learned that supposedly, for the small ones, the 1926 back side says "Serie Boxer" and the 1927 back side says "1. Serie Boxer". The large one I have has the same picture on front but different front side text. The back sides are different.
Here are the two theoretically 1926 cards, side by side:
Here are the two back sides of those same Schmeling cards:
Here is a comparison of a small-issue 1926 Greiling (Schmeling) & 1927 Greiling (Dempsey/Tunney), with the "Serie Boxer" vs. "1. Serie Boxer". All the other 1927 Greiling cards I own also say "1. Serie Boxer"
<< <i>Thanks for the posts so far, very informative.
From the research I had done regarding the color variety (comprised of examining images of graded examples I found plus emailing with sellers & collectors who live in Germany), I learned that supposedly, for the small ones, the 1926 back side says "Serie Boxer" and the 1927 back side says "1. Serie Boxer". The large one I have has the same picture on front but different front side text. The back sides are different. >>
Interesting information. Not sure what to make of it. Might be REALLY helpful, though.
Most of my research into these cards started when I made the mistake (okay, it was only a mistake because I didn't realize what I was getting myself into) of purchasing my first (large version) black and white greiling soccer card depicting ricardo zamora. Fast forward through the purchase of nearly 1500 more different black and white, small and large, and also color greiling soccer cards, and I am more confused than when I started. Since that purchase, I've seen uncut sheets of greiling soccer cards, envelopes that held greiling soccer cards, and wax paper "envelopes" with greiling soccer cards printed ON them, and i still cant figure anything out. All I know is i have two large binders full of them and i still feel like i have barely scratched the surface.
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
I think the back of that greiling schmeling helps us. I think schmeling won his first european title in 1927 (june, maybe?). Before that he held a german title. So, it is looking like a mid 1927 release for that color greiling schmeling, at the earliest.
And, miklia, thanks. Havent had a slow clap in years.
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
Thank you. For those of us who don't quite understand German, could you clarify what part you're reading?
Also of note, there are 1927 Greiling w/ 1.Serie Boxer, 2.Serie Boxer, and 3.Serie Boxer. It had been my understanding before that the cards that were slabbed as 1926 by SGC, PSA, and BVG that had small cards in color w/ 2.Serie Boxer and 3.Serie Boxer were incorrect, in that they should be 1927 instead. Serie Boxer was supposed to have been issued before 1.Serie Boxer; not sure whether 1.Serie Boxer was an overlap issue available late 1926 to early 1927, or just 1927 making slabbed 1926 1.Serie Boxer incorrect?
Is it safe to assume the large and small Schmeling cards I've got scanned were issued during the same year? 1960's Topps baseball sure recycled their photos quite a bit, sometimes for many years in a row. I wonder if the large one was issued in a later year than the small one, but using the same photo again since Greiling already had it on stock?
<< <i>Thank you. For those of us who don't quite understand German, could you clarify what part you're reading?
Also of note, there are 1927 Greiling w/ 1.Serie Boxer, 2.Serie Boxer, and 3.Serie Boxer. It had been my understanding before that the cards that were slabbed as 1926 by SGC, PSA, and BVG that had small cards in color w/ 2.Serie Boxer and 3.Serie Boxer were incorrect, in that they should be 1927 instead. Serie Boxer was supposed to have been issued before 1.Serie Boxer; not sure whether 1.Serie Boxer was an overlap issue available late 1926 to early 1927, or just 1927 making slabbed 1926 1.Serie Boxer incorrect? >>
I believe the beginning of the back of the small greling card translates as "Is the first German to hold a European championship title in professional boxing." I might be wrong as I don't speak fluent German and use babelfish for translation. Maybe someone else could chime in? I am not sure, but I think the front both cards makes reference to a european championship as well?
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
Well it appears there are different backs for the 1927 Color versions. Both of these cards are mine and both are the small version of Jack Dempsey. If you look closely, despite the album residue, you can see that one of the cards has additional text under the Greiling - Sportbilder title on the top. Looks like the one with album residue was going to identify a series, perhaps?
This is why I just don't do Germany. Great cards, some are pretty tough, but I only have so much RAM in my brain for boxing cards and certain sacrifices had to be made. I honestly have no idea what we're even talking about any longer. You guys sort this mess out and let me know how it ends.
<< <i>This is why I just don't do Germany. Great cards, some are pretty tough, but I only have so much RAM in my brain for boxing cards and certain sacrifices had to be made. I honestly have no idea what we're even talking about any longer. You guys sort this mess out and let me know how it ends. >>
Quitter!
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
Your first one is listed as a 1926 on the checklist provided here (It's not a perfect list, as he's missing a couple I emailed him about, but still a pretty decent link)
I believe the Dempsey with the residue says "Serie Boxer Bild 12" based on the pop report. However, the pop report does indicate it as a "1.Serie" and yours just looks like a "Serie", but that could be a pop report/slab error.
Comments
<< <i>interesting list, but I cant get past the 1st card as I know its not his rookie...
there are strip cards of Dempsey that date to 1920-21 ie 4/5 of the cards in this auction
5 Jack Dempsey strip cards eBay
end 2 cards are 1921 (W551 style), the 2nd card from left with surface damage is 1923 (W515 group style), and both horizontal cards are from 1920 (W516 group style)..
Dempsey was the Heavyweight champion in 1919, so it would make sense there would be cards issued right away and not 3 years later like the so called rookie card on your list...
also where is Jack Johnson? he'd kick everyones ass on the entire list...
not 100% sure if this is the first card but its early
1908 Ogdens Jack Johnson >>
In fairness to the OP, he isn't creating a hobby resource, he's simply compiling a personal list for himself.
There's also no way to establish a consensus on what constitutes a rookie card for boxing cards. Personally, I couldn't care less what a fighter's rookie card is. I've said it before but there's probably dozens of cards I'd rather have than any fighter's perceived rookie card.
The strip cards are never going to be as popular and commonly accepted by the hobby as a card that was inserted as a premium (tobacco, gum, candy, etc). Aside from strip cards, there really isn't much of anything for Dempsey in the card category prior to 1922. That's not to say that something won't surface in the future (previously uncatalogued items pop up at least a few times a year) but show me a 1920 or 1921 non-strip card issue. Not sure one is known at the moment.
Well, a 1920 Juncosa Chocolates Notabilidades De La Pantalla No. 2 Jack Dempsey just sold on ebay on January 6. Check out item no. 130828488873
PSA identifies this card on the population report as being from 1920. However, the back side clearly references the July 2, 1921 Dempsey/Carpentier fight in the past tense, so PSA must have this one wrong, as its issuance is more likely from late 1921 or sometime in 1922. Wouldn't be the first time PSA had a year entered incorrectly on their files by any means, but it still may qualify for your request for a pre-1922 card issued as a premium w/ cigarettes, gum, candy, etc.
<< <i>Well, a 1920 Juncosa Chocolates Notabilidades De La Pantalla No. 2 Jack Dempsey just sold on ebay on January 6. Check out item no. 130828488873
PSA identifies this card on the population report as being from 1920. However, the back side clearly references the July 2, 1921 Dempsey/Carpentier fight in the past tense, so PSA must have this one wrong, as its issuance is more likely from late 1921 or sometime in 1922. Wouldn't be the first time PSA had a year entered incorrectly on their files by any means, but it still may qualify for your request for a pre-1922 card issued as a premium w/ cigarettes, gum, candy, etc. >>
If I recall correctly, PSA slabs this card as "1920s" but it shows up in pop report and set registry lists as 1920 (without the 's'). The card is not from 1920. My best guess is a 1924-25 issue date.
<< <i>
also where is Jack Johnson? he'd kick everyones ass on the entire list...
>>
I agree - Jack Johnson & John L. Sullivan should always make a list like this.
With that said, the OP has been great about updating this list, and it's an ever-evolving project. I think he's done a great job so far compiling the data he has. I wish there were more resources like this for misc sports cards of the past.
Jeff
<< <i>I need to research the Dempsey rc. The pop report has a few tobacco cards from 1920. I would prefer one of those over a strip card but I'm not 100% sure they are actually from 1920. >>
There aren't any 1920 tobacco cards. If you look at the pop report, you'll find:
1920 Underwood & Underwood -- A two card, post card-sized issue that also includes Jess Willard. Most likely a product of their 1919 fight and most likely a correct issue date of 1920.
1920 W521 Decalco -- not sure if PSA slabs these strip cards as 1920's but I've seen no definitive reference to a 1920 issue date in any other hobby resources. Probably a guess by PSA.
1920 W529-X -- Issued in 1925, according to Warshaw's book
1920 Juncosa -- slabbed 1920's, most likely a mid-20s issue (deicted in movie makeup)
1920 Perales -- almost certainly slabbed 1920's -- most likely a mid-20s issue (Dempsey depicted in makeup so would almost certainly be issued after his venture to Hollywood in 1923-24)
That is everything currently in the pop report listed as "1920." The only 1921 issues are the RyJ (seriously doubt a 1921 issue date based on other fighters depicted in the set) and the W551 (which has a 1921-1922 issue date in Warshaw's book). Everything after that is 1922.
Jeff
ebay item no. 400369711289
<< <i>What do you make of this one? Supposedly a 1921 issue.
ebay item no. 400369711289 >>
Those are a series of stamp stickers, issued 3/week. Dempsey was issued in June 24th, 1922.
The Boy's Magazine is a 1922 issue.
That BVG slab is an oversized one, so don't judge the size of the card based on its dimensions relative to the slab. There are plenty of post cards issued 1919-1921 depicting Dempsey. We all probably have our own interpretation of what a rookie card is. I don't concern myself too much with it as I'd rather gauge an item's value by rarity, but I would think that if one's goal was to identify the most widely accepted item then you're probably looking at a tobacco/candy/gum/etc insert, hence 1922.
<< <i>I personally don't like the idea of using a postcard, exhibit or strip card as a rookie - but that's just me. I'm sure others will disagree. I always consider an actual trading card to be a rookie. I think this may be how we decided on the 1922 Champion as our Dempsey rookie card of choice, in the first place. With that said, there may be some other foreign "cards" that predate the Champion issue. I believe his Felix Potin card (which I love), was issued in 1922, as well.
Nice card. I would def prefer a card that depicts him as a boxer over an actor. What does this card usually sell for?
They don't come up for sale very often. There have been 7 graded by PSA, 2 were submitted by me. The top 4 Dempsey set registries all have one in their set. To me, this card is still in the "grade irrelevant" category, meaning, if I were looking to buy one it wouldn't matter to me what the card technically graded because they're so tough to find. The recession and the set registry guys already having one hurts the card's value on the open market. I would expect to pay at least a couple hundred dollars for one when it pops up again. My $0.02
1926 Greiling Serie Boxer, no. 2
1926 Greiling Bunte Bilder Serie Boxer (large), no. 2
I have both of them. Not sure how much more rare the Bunte Bilder is than the smaller one. PSA will only grade the first one. SGC will grade both. I'm curious about an approximate value for each of these, but there don't seem to be any others of either one besides the ones I own, as far as I've been able to determine so far.
<< <i>Nice card. I would def prefer a card that depicts him as a boxer over an actor. What does this card usually sell for? >>
I used to own the Felix Potin Dempsey PSA 7, I posted. I actually submitted the card raw, and I don't think a nicer example will ever surface. I sold mine in a big package deal to one of the registry guys. I'm not sure how much it would bring by itself, at auction, but I think a copy in a PSA 2 could easily bring $300 (if that gives you an idea of value).
Jeff
<< <i>On the subject of boxing, for Max Schmeling, is there a reason to select one over the other as his "rookie card" between his two different 1926 issues?
1926 Greiling Serie Boxer, no. 2
1926 Greiling Bunte Bilder Serie Boxer (large), no. 2
I have both of them. Not sure how much more rare the Bunte Bilder is than the smaller one. PSA will only grade the first one. SGC will grade both. I'm curious about an approximate value for each of these, but there don't seem to be any others of either one besides the ones I own, as far as I've been able to determine so far. >>
I haven't seen enough to think that either one is tougher than the other. Unfortunately, Schmeling doesn't command much on the open market despite having a decent following on the set registry. Of course, you'd want to have the card added to his set registry before trying to sell it. I've got a copy of the small version still glued into an album page. After trying to soak off the Dempsey and not being able to cleanly, I'm just leaving the Schmeling glued onto the page.
There appears to be only two people on his registry that are seriously going after his player set. RAS mostly does complete sets and then just adds his cards to player set registries. He also doesn't appear to have much of a grasp on what is and what isn't rare. I've seen him drop hundreds on common cards and then pass on very difficult cards for a fraction of that common price. I don't know enough about the Schmeling market to speculate but in my minimal experience I'd be shocked if it got over $100. Just not enough demand.
<< <i>
<< <i>On the subject of boxing, for Max Schmeling, is there a reason to select one over the other as his "rookie card" between his two different 1926 issues?
1926 Greiling Serie Boxer, no. 2
1926 Greiling Bunte Bilder Serie Boxer (large), no. 2
I have both of them. Not sure how much more rare the Bunte Bilder is than the smaller one. PSA will only grade the first one. SGC will grade both. I'm curious about an approximate value for each of these, but there don't seem to be any others of either one besides the ones I own, as far as I've been able to determine so far. >>
I haven't seen enough to think that either one is tougher than the other. Unfortunately, Schmeling doesn't command much on the open market despite having a decent following on the set registry. Of course, you'd want to have the card added to his set registry before trying to sell it. I've got a copy of the small version still glued into an album page. After trying to soak off the Dempsey and not being able to cleanly, I'm just leaving the Schmeling glued onto the page.
There appears to be only two people on his registry that are seriously going after his player set. RAS mostly does complete sets and then just adds his cards to player set registries. He also doesn't appear to have much of a grasp on what is and what isn't rare. I've seen him drop hundreds on common cards and then pass on very difficult cards for a fraction of that common price. I don't know enough about the Schmeling market to speculate but in my minimal experience I'd be shocked if it got over $100. Just not enough demand. >>
The ACTUAL schmeling rookie is difficult to pinpoint. I think the greiling cards (in general) are hard to date accurately. They were issued over a number of years. Many people say that the black and white greilings were issued first. Others say that the color ones were issued first. Me? I am not sure. This is a black and white one (there are others). Schmeling black and white greiling Here is the back:
Schmeling black and white Greiling (back)
This is my favorite Greiling Schmeling: Color Greiling Schmeling
I own neither (anymore).
<< <i>Anyone know which card is Oscar de la Hoya's rookie? >>
1992 classic or 1992 impel
Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
<< <i>I wanted to send in my large Strangler Lewis Greiling in to go with the small one but from the sound of it PSA will not grade it? >>
PSA seems to have a problem grading the larger (coupon removed) versions of the greilings, even though that is what the manufacturer intended be done with the card (clip the coupon). If your Lewis has the coupon intact, they will grade it. Honestly I am not sure why they don't grade them with the coupon removed. My best guess is ignorance. They grade zeenuts with the coupon removed, don't they? Or am I wrong?
Jeff
Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
Both of the two different 1926 Greiling varieties of Max Schmeling I have are color, not black and white.
It's good that people are starting to do work on his cards though. His player set reg is bare bones and I'm sure there are a TON of more Schmeling cards out there that haven't been graded by PSA. Germany was a massive producer of tobacco cards in the 20s and 30s and Schmeling was, obviously, a huge national hero for them.
<< <i>Alan, the color ones from (supposedly) 1926 are the ones that come in two sizes, right? If I'm not mistaken, there are Dempsey/Tunney fight cards in that set, which would pretty much eliminate 1926. >>
Ahh, Greiling.
Take everything you are about to read as being my best guess on things.
The black and white Greilings come in small and large size AND they are printed on different "stocks" of paper, ranging from extremely thin paper, to cardboard. Additionally, the first 100 (maybe 200) cards in the soccer set came in sheet form and were separated, thus you can find some with perforations on them. I believe the same is true for the boxing cards as well (as I have a couple with perforations on them). I believe these black and white cards were issued in 1926 and 1927, and in two extremely large (something like 900 cards each) sets. I think the size of the set is a decent indication that the cards were released over a period of time rather than all at once.
The color Greilings are a completely different animal.
Let's take the boxing cards, since that's the topic at hand. I think there were some
Color boxing cards issued as early as 1926 but I am not sure. The "usual" serie boxer cards that we see on ebay were issued in something like 20 series of 14 (or so) cards in each series. They were issued in two versions: small and large. The large version came with a coupon attached which could be torn off and redeemed. The small version had the coupon on the back, so the small version WAS the coupon which could be redeemed (I think for tobacco, but I am still not sure). Would this indicate that the small ones are more rare? Not sure, but maybe? Lol. I believe greiling began issuing the color cards in late 1927/early 1928
Then, I believe that Greiling re-issued boxing cards (often using the same image on the front, with different font/name placement on the front, and under different set names/series on the back, all the way through 1932 (at least).
The Tunney-Dempsey fight cards series is another unique animal. Since the first fight was at the end of 1926 (am I remembering that correctly?), I don't think that series could have been released until 1927. I am not sure about the Tunney-Dempsey cards, as I am not sure about any of the other unique series of cards that depicted things like wrestling holds and judo moves.
Hope some of this helps.
Alan
PSA lists a Greiling set in their pop report as 1926, under which they list a Tunney card and a Dempsey card. I'm assuming these are the colorized cards as I don't believe (but could be wrong) that there aren't any Dempsey or Tunney cards in the B&W set that is depicted above with he Schmeling card. The first Dempsey/Tunney fight was 9/22/1926 so the odds of any foreign set that depicts Dempsey/Tunney fight scenes on cards being issued in 1926 are pretty small.
I'm basically illiterate when it comes to Greiling cards. I can't identify them by set name or series but know which ones are tougher than others by the image on the front.
Including, for example, that Richard Hoffman appears on BOTH his black and white AND his color greiling cards representing the team Meerane 07. He played on this club until the end of the 1926/27 season, before switching to Dresden for the 1927/28 season. However, there is a color greiling cards that depicts team captains shaking hands before the 1928 English Cup Final that took place in APril 1928 Click here. Card is located halfway down the page.. So...LONG STORY SHORT, I believe that both series were issued over a period of years, rather than just all at once on a specific date (or during a specific year).
From the research I had done regarding the color variety (comprised of examining images of graded examples I found plus emailing with sellers & collectors who live in Germany), I learned that supposedly, for the small ones, the 1926 back side says "Serie Boxer" and the 1927 back side says "1. Serie Boxer". The large one I have has the same picture on front but different front side text. The back sides are different.
Here are the two back sides of those same Schmeling cards:
Here is a comparison of a small-issue 1926 Greiling (Schmeling) & 1927 Greiling (Dempsey/Tunney), with the "Serie Boxer" vs. "1. Serie Boxer". All the other 1927 Greiling cards I own also say "1. Serie Boxer"
<< <i>Thanks for the posts so far, very informative.
From the research I had done regarding the color variety (comprised of examining images of graded examples I found plus emailing with sellers & collectors who live in Germany), I learned that supposedly, for the small ones, the 1926 back side says "Serie Boxer" and the 1927 back side says "1. Serie Boxer". The large one I have has the same picture on front but different front side text. The back sides are different. >>
Interesting information. Not sure what to make of it. Might be REALLY helpful, though.
Most of my research into these cards started when I made the mistake (okay, it was only a mistake because I didn't realize what I was getting myself into) of purchasing my first (large version) black and white greiling soccer card depicting ricardo zamora. Fast forward through the purchase of nearly 1500 more different black and white, small and large, and also color greiling soccer cards, and I am more confused than when I started. Since that purchase, I've seen uncut sheets of greiling soccer cards, envelopes that held greiling soccer cards, and wax paper "envelopes" with greiling soccer cards printed ON them, and i still cant figure anything out. All I know is i have two large binders full of them and i still feel like i have barely scratched the surface.
And, miklia, thanks. Havent had a slow clap in years.
Also of note, there are 1927 Greiling w/ 1.Serie Boxer, 2.Serie Boxer, and 3.Serie Boxer. It had been my understanding before that the cards that were slabbed as 1926 by SGC, PSA, and BVG that had small cards in color w/ 2.Serie Boxer and 3.Serie Boxer were incorrect, in that they should be 1927 instead. Serie Boxer was supposed to have been issued before 1.Serie Boxer; not sure whether 1.Serie Boxer was an overlap issue available late 1926 to early 1927, or just 1927 making slabbed 1926 1.Serie Boxer incorrect?
<< <i>Thank you. For those of us who don't quite understand German, could you clarify what part you're reading?
Also of note, there are 1927 Greiling w/ 1.Serie Boxer, 2.Serie Boxer, and 3.Serie Boxer. It had been my understanding before that the cards that were slabbed as 1926 by SGC, PSA, and BVG that had small cards in color w/ 2.Serie Boxer and 3.Serie Boxer were incorrect, in that they should be 1927 instead. Serie Boxer was supposed to have been issued before 1.Serie Boxer; not sure whether 1.Serie Boxer was an overlap issue available late 1926 to early 1927, or just 1927 making slabbed 1926 1.Serie Boxer incorrect? >>
I believe the beginning of the back of the small greling card translates as "Is the first German to hold a European championship title in professional boxing." I might be wrong as I don't speak fluent German and use babelfish for translation. Maybe someone else could chime in? I am not sure, but I think the front both cards makes reference to a european championship as well?
<< <i>This is why I just don't do Germany. Great cards, some are pretty tough, but I only have so much RAM in my brain for boxing cards and certain sacrifices had to be made. I honestly have no idea what we're even talking about any longer. You guys sort this mess out and let me know how it ends. >>
Quitter!
Your first one is listed as a 1926 on the checklist provided here
(It's not a perfect list, as he's missing a couple I emailed him about, but still a pretty decent link)
I believe the Dempsey with the residue says "Serie Boxer Bild 12" based on the pop report. However, the pop report does indicate it as a "1.Serie" and yours just looks like a "Serie", but that could be a pop report/slab error.