Coin prices from 1980
EagleEye
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In looking at the Summer 1980 Rare Coin Review by Bowers and Ruddy, I was taken by a few prices.
One caveat: These were pre-slab coins and grading was a bit different then, but a Gem MS-65 in 1980 is likely to be a 64 in todays grading.
1858 LL Flying Eagle Cent MS-65 $2,195
1899 Liberty Nickel MS-65 $1695 PR-65 $2,395
1915 Nickel PR-69 $8,950
1910 Barber Dime MS-65 $2,195
1923-S S.L. Quarter MS-65FH $5,150
1924 S.L. Quarter MS-65FH $2,650
1924-D S.L. Quarter MS-65 $1,395
1908-D Half Dollar MS-65 $6,950
1911 $10 MS-65 $5,795
One caveat: These were pre-slab coins and grading was a bit different then, but a Gem MS-65 in 1980 is likely to be a 64 in todays grading.
1858 LL Flying Eagle Cent MS-65 $2,195
1899 Liberty Nickel MS-65 $1695 PR-65 $2,395
1915 Nickel PR-69 $8,950
1910 Barber Dime MS-65 $2,195
1923-S S.L. Quarter MS-65FH $5,150
1924 S.L. Quarter MS-65FH $2,650
1924-D S.L. Quarter MS-65 $1,395
1908-D Half Dollar MS-65 $6,950
1911 $10 MS-65 $5,795
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But regardless, looks like for at least those pieces, you would have been better to keep your money in your mattress.
a time of very high prices for coins?
Some history of this era would certainly be appreciated ...
Mark
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1957-D Roos. 10c AU $3.50
1962 Wash. 25c MS-60 $8.50
1964 Kennedy 50c MS-63 $16.00
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<< <i>1980 was the wildest market ever, so far, IMHO. >>
Wilder than in 1989-90? I'm not so sure.
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<< <i>A "bit" different? I'd say grading was A LOT different back then. Especially at the very peak of the 1980 coin boom. An MS-65 back then, even from someone like B&R would be at BEST a MS-63 today. From most people, probably a lot worse.
But regardless, looks like for at least those pieces, you would have been better to keep your money in your mattress. >>
Yea, I tried to buy from Bowers & Ruddy back in the 1970s, and I had to send all of the stuff back. They were using grades like "BU, light rubbing" which is nonsensical. I felt like sending a copy of Jim Ruddy's Photograde book to him and asking him if he'd read it. They advertised stuff, like early U.S. coins at attractive prices in a fancy catalog, but the grading was not there. The coins I got had the detail of AU's, but they had been cleaned white, and they would be no good even today because they might not have graded. Other coins they called "EF" were only VF using Ruddy's book. You can’t use these prices a gauge of the market was then, because the grading was totally faulty.
<< <i>Wilder than in 1989-90? I'm not so sure. >>
Yea 1980 was definitively wilder than 1989-90. The prices were so high for me then that I almost stopped collecting coins. I couldn’t afford anything that was decent. There were stories about guys walking into Stacks' with their life savings, plunking the money down on the counter and asking Stacks' to sell them something.
Dealer friends of mine, who were my age (late 20’s, early 30’s) were bragging about how they “got a rip” because they “only had to pay three times the Gray Sheet bid price.” I finally hunkered down and collected Two Cent pieces in EF by date. (That was and still is a challenge.)
My dealer friends formed a coin company they called “Lie Cheat & Steal.” They had a logo with guys behind bars in striped suits sorting coins. They got one ad in Coin World before the other dealers forced them out of the advertising pages.
When bubble burst it broke big time. My dealer friends bought an original 1912 Proof set (cent through half dollar) for $18,000. They tried to get $19,000 for it on the flip, but they were too late. They eventually got $14,000 for it on the way down, and they were lucky. Before it was over that set could have been had if the owner was willing to eat the bird for $6 or $7 grand.
Yea, things were nuts in 1980. In 1989-90, it seemed to me that most of the insanity centered around the “old” commemorative coins. They were selling for two and three times today’s prices. I didn’t give fig about commemorative coins back then so that didn't bother me. I could still collect and did collect early U.S. coins. The dealer told me I was "nuts" because those coins are expensive and "have no future." So far I've gotten the last laugh, but who knows about the future?
<< <i>
<< <i>A "bit" different? I'd say grading was A LOT different back then. Especially at the very peak of the 1980 coin boom. An MS-65 back then, even from someone like B&R would be at BEST a MS-63 today. From most people, probably a lot worse.
But regardless, looks like for at least those pieces, you would have been better to keep your money in your mattress. >>
Yea, I tried to buy from Bowers & Ruddy back in the 1970s, and I had to send all of the stuff back. They were using grades like "BU, light rubbing" which is nonsensical. I felt like sending a copy of Jim Ruddy's Photograde book to him and asking him if he'd read it. They advertised stuff, like early U.S. coins at attractive prices in a fancy catalog, but the grading was not there. The coins I got had the detail of AU's, but they had been cleaned white, and they would be no good even today because they might not have graded. Other coins they called "EF" were only VF using Ruddy's book. You can’t use these prices a gauge of the market was then, because the grading was totally faulty.
<< <i>Wilder than in 1989-90? I'm not so sure. >>
Yea 1980 was definitively wilder than 1989-90. The prices were so high for me then that I almost stopped collecting coins. I couldn’t afford anything that was decent. There were stories about guys walking into Stacks' with their life savings, plunking the money down on the counter and asking Stacks' to sell them something.
Dealer friends of mine, who were my age (late 20’s, early 30’s) were bragging about how they “got a rip” because they “only had to pay three times the Gray Sheet bid price.” I finally hunkered down and collected Two Cent pieces in EF by date. (That was and still is a challenge.)
My dealer friends formed a coin company they called “Lie Cheat & Steal.” They had a logo with guys behind bars in striped suits sorting coins. They got one ad in Coin World before the other dealers forced them out of the advertising pages.
When bubble burst it broke big time. My dealer friends bought an original 1912 Proof set (cent through half dollar) for $18,000. They tried to get $19,000 for it on the flip, but they were too late. They eventually got $14,000 for it on the way down, and they were lucky. Before it was over that set could have been had if the owner was willing to eat the bird for $6 or $7 grand.
Yea, things were nuts in 1980. In 1989-90, it seemed to me that most of the insanity centered around the “old” commemorative coins. They were selling for two and three times today’s prices. I didn’t give fig about commemorative coins back then so that didn't bother me. I could still collect and did collect early U.S. coins. The dealer told me I was "nuts" because those coins are expensive and "have no future." So far I've gotten the last laugh, but who knows about the future?
Bill, in 1989-90. classic commemoratives were selling for a LOT more than "two and three times today’s prices", and so were a lot of MS and Proof type coins, as well as classic gold commemoratives, and some Walkers, if I remember correctly. Also, let us not forget MS65 common date Morgan dollars at about $800 at their peak .
<< <i>Bill, in 1989-90. classic commemoratives were selling for a LOT more than "two and three times today’s prices", and so were a lot of MS and Proof type coins, as well as classic gold commemoratives, and some Walkers, if I remember correctly. Also, let us not forget MS65 common date Morgan dollars at about $800 at their peak . >>
I wasn't buying or interested in any of that stuff. I was buying early U.S. coins (1796 Quarter, Flowing Hair Dollar, Early half dimes) in grades ranging from VF-25 to AU-55, and they were a lot less than than they are now.
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What about the Hunt brothers and silver? Did that have anything to do with this?
Or were they totally separate? I thought Hunt was more like 1982.
Mark
Discover all unpredictable errors before they occur.
Still interested in whether the manipulation of silver prices and the activity in the
broader coin market were related.
Mark
Discover all unpredictable errors before they occur.
<< <i>So this happened only for a few months in 1980 alone?
What about the Hunt brothers and silver? Did that have anything to do with this?
Or were they totally separate? I thought Hunt was more like 1982.
Mark >>
People perceived that inflation was so bad that they were going to lose everything if they didn’t get out of money related assets. The stock market was terrible, and you getting 16 to 18 percent in money market accounts, but inflation and taxes still had you falling behind. The “talking heads” were saying “buy things,” and “things” included gold, silver and coins.
The specific years kind run together for me so I can’t cite what happened in 1980 versus 1982, but I do remember what going to coin shows was like and how it was not much fun to be a collector because the “stupid money” was buying up the market.
<< <i>I'm weeping reading all of these comments about Bowers & Ruddy. I thought that their coins were very conservatively graded. Or perhaps that was Bowers & Merena? >>
Bowers and Merena was better than Bowers and Ruddy, but they were both high priced providers compared to the deals you could make at coin shows.
<< <i>My mistake, Hunts were 1979 into January 1980 before things fell apart for silver.
Still interested in whether the manipulation of silver prices and the activity in the
broader coin market were related.
Mark >>
The precious metals market and the rare coin market crashed at about the same time in early 1980. As Bill mentioned, until that time, hard assets were a must own, as a hedge against high inflation.
<< <i>Also, let us not forget MS65 common date Morgan dollars at about $800 at their peak >>
Yeah and MS-65 FB common Mercs for around $250 and even common MS-65 Buffs for around $200 if I remember correctly.
I think a lot of the late 80's boom was related to people giving too much credence to the "Pop Reports" at a time when too may coins were still raw to make that data relevant. They believed MS-65 80-S Morgans and 38-D Buffs were as rare as the population reports seemed to indicate. Of course once prices shot through the roof and the only way to get those prices was to slab things, the populations increased quite substantially and the prices crashed just as substantially
That year, I remember unloading a ton of what would be now ms 63 and 64 morgans at great prices......thats what I collected then.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Same experience for me. I mail bid for my first time in 1977 and ended up with every lot I bid on. And each coin turned out to be a problem coin and nothing like the description. I returned every lot to them and they sent back a "negatively toned" letter telling me basically not to bid again unless I saw the coins beforehand. No more mail bidding for me. That was fine with me. I didn't bid again with them until 1988 when I was able to view coins in person while traveling.
Gold peaked in January, not sure about silver. The rare coin market peaked at the Garrett Sale auction in April 1980. That was also the time that Jim Halperin rushed his rare coin fund to auction in April and got astounding prizes. My old gem 1867-s quarter realized $30,000 in that sale. Halperin had paid $5000 for it in 1977. It sold out of the Jame Stack sale in March 1975 for only $1800. By 1986 it sold for only $9750. But had it sold in the summer of 1982 when the market totally bottomed it would have brought even less than that. The grading in 1980 was all over the map. Some coins graded MS65 were in fact true gems. That's what my quarter was graded in that sale...MS65. In 1986 it graded PCGS MS66 and today it's an NGC MS67. Superb common date gem MS seated quarters fetched as high as $10,000-$20,000 that spring. By the bottom in 1982 they were at $2,000 or less. The market fell like a stone in April 1980 when taxes became due. By B&M's summer catalog things actually selling were much lower in price though asking prices were still up high looking for a final fish. 1981 and 1982 were washout years of lousy prices. Things started becoming better in 1983 with some of the Stack Auctions and the apostrophe sale Auction '83.
The grading during the heat of the market in early 1980 could have been right on. Other times it was way off. I guess it didn't matter one way or the other since coins were flying off the shelf. It was the only time I can recall the market being like that. It was so bullish that I brought my entire collection of leftovers, mistakes, and junk to my local dealer and got good money on them, and made a profit. Had I kept those another 6 months to a year they would have been mega burials for years to come.
That PCGS3000 visual is not a good indicator of coin prices before 1986. There's no way the peak in 1990 was 4-1/2X the 1980 peak. And the 1995-96 bottom being higher priced than the 1980 peak? That's hogwash. Using my 1867-s quarter above which was worth $50K in early 1990, you'd get about 50% higher from 1980 to 1990, and that's only for good or great coins that were graded right in 1980. And that fits with my my experiences for gem barber and seated coinage as well. A gem barber quarter was worth about $4000 in 1990. In 1980 it was probably $3000-$4000...and more often than not if you weren't fussy, you got a MS63+ or MS64 if you paid gem money in 1980. The crap that was graded in 1980 would never come close to those prices by 1990. PCGS wasn't even around in 1980 so whatever comparison they are using is not correct. Those 2 market peaks were actually somewhat similar. The best coins made gains in those 10 yrs while average stuff and problem stuff never recovered.
roadrunner
<< <i>Or perhaps that was Bowers & Merena? >>
I bought a certified ms 63 saint from them for about 450.00 when gold was at 350.00
The coin they sent was raw. I emailed them about 6 times before someone finally
emailed me back, 'oh it was obviously a mistake'. It basically cost me 20.00 to do no business with them.
Never again.
Here are some faces from 1980. Dave Bowers with a beard. Marti and Bob Korver when they worked at Bowers & Ruddy in LA. Marti's picture is cropped in, I think.
Then there is Jim Halpern and John Dannreuther.
Gold was worth MUCH more than it is today. Relative to inflation.
In Chicagoland, we had multiple local coin shows EVERY weekend.
1n 1980, I could walk into a Sears department store and buy coins from their coin department.
<< <i>In 1980 there were no pop reports. I think you are thinking about 1989-90. >>
Read my post. I said "Late 80's", not 1980
It is so much better now with more reliance on auction data than sight-unseen bids.
I watched a friend sell a washed-out, drab-looking 1945-S WL 50c to a coin show dealer for $150. Now, according to Dave Ramsey, if that $150 had then been invested in a good growth stock mutual fund, averaging 12% (hah!) annual growth, that $150 would now be worth $4493.99. Today, that same 45-S Half Dollar is worth roughly $15 US.
Many low grade unc coins brought way more then than they do now.
The "1980" of the generic BU Morgan & Peace Dollar market had to be 1986-87. Somewhere I have an invoice dated Fall 1986 from Gold & Silver emporium (when Don Ketterling worked there) and among the items sold to GSE were five 1904-O PCGS MS64 $1's for $270 each!!!
<< <i> if that $150 had then been invested in a good growth stock mutual fund, averaging 12% (hah!) annual growth, that $150 would now be worth $4493.99. Today, that same 45-S Half Dollar is worth roughly $15 US. >>
Heck, thpppt the stock market. If you stuck it in a piggy bank it would've have still been $150. Better than $15
OK... lets brighten up this thread. Which coins have actually done significantly BETTER since 1980?