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Question for RAW card sellers?

bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭
in Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum
I recently sold a raw card on Ebay. The buyer sent it off to PSA and PSA claimed the card was trimmed. Basically, do raw card sellers guarantee that PSA will grade the card or is that a given?
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    ShawnyDShawnyD Posts: 242
    please out this clown so we can block him.
    was this a rare/expensive card? very curious
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    bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭
    No...not too rare or expensive. A 1955 Bowman Willie Mays card. Lucky for me, Mays is still living, and if the card is indeed trimmed, I may get him to sign it, as the card is in awesome shape......
    The bidders name was nuclint.

    PS - I thought this was funny....I asked him if it had graded an 8 or 8.5, would he have paid me more money.....(he paid about high 5, low 6 money).....
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    SmuggoSmuggo Posts: 425 ✭
    I thnk if I paid high 5, low 6 money for a trimmed card I wouldn't consider myself a clown for wanting a refund. Your point about him not likely to send you more if he pulled an "8" while right is not very relevant to me. Did your listing expressly guarantee that it would grade? Should all buyers assume that all raw listings are altered bc if not they would be slabbed? I don't think so.
    Collecting Pre-War, Pre-War HOF Types, Pre-War Postcards
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    scotgrebscotgreb Posts: 808 ✭✭✭
    Assuming the buyer is being completely honest . . . IMO he deserves to be refunded for the card (not shipping or grading fees).

    He bought a card and did not receive what he bought -- SNADs are fairly common for cards that PSA deems fake (aka questionable authenticity) -- I assume the same for doctored cards.

    The only way I would not refund is if I had legitimate reason to believe that he switched out the card.
    Focusing on baseball “playing years” HOFers. My HOF Set; https://psacard.com/psasetregistry/baseball/hall-fame-sets/hall-fame-players-managers-owners-executives-pioneers-commissioners-umpires/publishedset/77755

    Always plenty of PSA-graded cards in my ebay store -- https://ebay.com/str/thelumbercompanysportscards
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    WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Put yourself in his shoes. If you bought a card and sent it off to be graded and it came back as trimmed

    would you just eat it and say no problem? Or would you ask the seller for a refund?


    If it came back in a lower grade then it appeared or a higher one that means absolutely nothing IMO.


    If it was me I'd refund him. Would it have been different if when he received it he himself thought it to be trimmed

    and asked for a refund?


    IMO at least this guy is trying to communicate. I have no idea if his SNAD window is still active or not.

    Good sellers stand behind what they sell.


    Steve




    Good for you.
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    twileytwiley Posts: 1,923 ✭
    How many times have I read on these forums a card came back EOT and then were resubmitted and passed through.

    Could that be the case here?
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    bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭
    I have had that happen myself. Cards come back "trimmed" only to pass the 2nd time....I hate to think the card is worthless as it looks really sharp....
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    WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    It's happened to me as well. And it is very possible, but in the buyers situation he can't

    send it back in again AND expect a seller to make a refund.


    I must be missing something here but if this card was sharp and awesome looking

    shouldn't it have been graded before selling it? I mean a 55 Bowman Mays graded

    is worth much more than a raw example, no? Especially if it was possible it could come back as an 8.

    Or what that a rhetorical question?


    Steve


    Good for you.
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    otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭
    Here are a few questions . . .

    Was the card submitted by the seller and returned EOT?

    Did the seller "know" or suspect that the card is/was trimmed?

    Did the seller advertise the card as authentic and/or unaltered?

    Such questions would determine the proper plan of action.

    Personally, I would refund the buyer, but then again, I guarantee any raw cards that I sell as original, authentic and unaltered.
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    fkwfkw Posts: 1,766 ✭✭
    Unless its obviously trimmed and the buyer knows already.
    I will always guarantee that a card will grade with a number grade, or I will refund.

    Have never had to refund for this reason yet. I think Im fairly good at spotting trimmed cards in the sets I collect and deal with, but modern is a whole different story.

    PS. I sell mostly older stuff from 1880-1950 in VG condition on average
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    slaphappyslaphappy Posts: 145
    Whats to say the buyer did not trim it?
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    WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Looking at the buyers feedback on ebay I'd say it was not likely.

    However, anything is possible.


    The mailman, the person that received it at PSA and the grader could have trimmed it too.


    Steve
    Good for you.
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    slaphappyslaphappy Posts: 145
    we all know feedback don't mean much look at Waverly82's feedback and most everyone knows he is a doctor. For all we know we are looking at a BUYING ID

    To the OP did he send you the PSA submission number?
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    alnavmanalnavman Posts: 4,129 ✭✭✭
    Just curious, but how can anyone guarantee a card is going to get a certain grade or be legit??? if this was the case every card I've bought in the past needs to go back to the seller since it didn't get the GEM MINT 10 I was expecting.....sorry I had to let that out. how would this be any different than buying a car or your first house....unless there is an upfront guarantee of something such as the air conditioning does in fact work then how can you go back, after the fact and claim your money back??? guess I'll stand back now and get blasted but how do you know the card was in fact the one you sent the person???? I best be quiet before someone yells at me.
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    BrickBrick Posts: 4,938 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The buyer has every right to expect a refund assuming he is being truthful. Personally I would not purchase such a card raw from someone who sells graded cards. The card coming back EOT brings suspicion upon such a seller. Perhaps the seller is confident the card is excellent and can get excellent money for the card without the expense of grading, but it can be worth the expense to protect ones reputation.
    Collecting 1960 Topps Baseball in PSA 8
    http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/

    Ralph

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    SmuggoSmuggo Posts: 425 ✭
    A buyer has the right to assume he is buying an unaltered card unless it is expressly stated that it is so. No one is saying that the buyer had a right to expect a specific grade. To the point of not buying raw cards from sellers that sell a great deal of graded cards, when I do so I do so with the expectation that they are several grades lower than what the seller states bc I assume he has had it graded and didn't like the grade and busted it out. I still should be able to expect it to be unaltered unless listed as such.
    Collecting Pre-War, Pre-War HOF Types, Pre-War Postcards
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    WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Al if you are referring to FKW he did not say he guaranteed a specific grade but that the card would grade.

    Meaning if you sent a card in,(of his) it would NOT grade Auth. or be deemed EOT.

    And if it did he would refund.


    Slap you are right feedback is useless, especially since it may be a buying account.

    Al no blast from me to you. Just trying to explain.

    When I sold raw or when i do sell raw I try not to claim a card is in a certain PSA grade.

    I will though make the claim that IMO the card is in X or Y grade.

    Would I refund a buyer in this specific case? Yeah I would. Because of his feedback, which I took the time to look at.

    In any event Bobby asked a simple question and my answer is to that specific question is "some do and some do not'

    It is not a given. Things should be spelled out.


    Steve


    Good for you.
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    WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Just curious, but how can anyone guarantee a card is going to get a certain grade or be legit??? if this was the case every card I've bought in the past needs to go back to the seller since it didn't get the GEM MINT 10 I was expecting. >>




    Al, did the seller guarantee that you would get the 10? Just because you

    expected a card to grade at gem mint means nothing unless the seller made the claim.

    As for the legitimacy part, I would think unless a seller specifically claims that the card is legit it is assumed that it is.

    Steve


    Good for you.
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    alnavmanalnavman Posts: 4,129 ✭✭✭
    I don't expect 10's for every card but thought I'd show you three examples from auctions I've won...cards were listed as ex-nm and I was overall satisfied with the bulk of the purchase but no where did the auction say anything about MC's or ST's....if you use the arguement being surfaced here I should be able to go back and get my money back on these three because the auction didn't state it was possible to get MC's or ST's even though I know that it can happen and especially with this year of fleer.....guess what I'm trying to say is you are probably best to not say anthing relative to condition other than look at the scans.....oh well guess I should have napped this afternoon instead of checking the threads.....or is the intent to point out that this card is from a noted "supposed" trimmer???

    al.

    image
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    otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Just curious, but how can anyone guarantee a card is going to get a certain grade or be legit??? if this was the case every card I've bought in the past needs to go back to the seller since it didn't get the GEM MINT 10 I was expecting.....sorry I had to let that out. >>



    There's a MAJOR difference between your concern about what you were EXPECTING versus what is advertised. I know MANY sellers that guarantee the accuracy and the legitimacy of their raw cards. I do the same. However, I will not advertise a card as GEM MINT and rarely MINT. Typically, I will call them at least NM/MT or better. Vintage is a different story, but I always guarantee the card is accurately graded. If the buyer doesn't agree, I offer an unconditional refund (I have NEVER had a request for a refund in more than 10 years of selling and NEVER had a negative feedback as a seller). I do not offer refunds on 3rd party graded cards, though.
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    otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I don't expect 10's for every card but thought I'd show you three examples from auctions I've won...cards were listed as ex-nm and I was overall satisfied with the bulk of the purchase but no where did the auction say anything about MC's or ST's....if you use the arguement being surfaced here I should be able to go back and get my money back on these three because the auction didn't state it was possible to get MC's or ST's even though I know that it can happen and especially with this year of fleer.....guess what I'm trying to say is you are probably best to not say anthing relative to condition other than look at the scans.....oh well guess I should have napped this afternoon instead of checking the threads.....or is the intent to point out that this card is from a noted "supposed" trimmer???

    al.

    image >>



    Let's see . . . EX/NM would be the NET grade for those.
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    wallst32wallst32 Posts: 513 ✭✭
    If the card looks "sharp" I am curious as to why the OP/seller would not have it graded prior to selling.
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    alnavmanalnavman Posts: 4,129 ✭✭✭
    I think I got this turned towards the expectation of Gem Mint 10's for everything, for which I apologize....I don't expect anything as far as grades since there could be something I miss when I submit....in fact I take back what I was saying about the Fleer cards I posted the scans on. I guess the seller was correct because if you downgrade each card the two grades your supposed to you are right at ex-mt......time to hit the sack, minds a blur, too many late night work hours. see you all in AM.

    al.
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    BoopottsBoopotts Posts: 6,784 ✭✭


    << <i>If the card looks "sharp" I am curious as to why the OP/seller would not have it graded prior to selling. >>




    I imagine the seller did, in fact, try to have this card graded, and then decided to pass the buck on to the next guy by selling it as a raw 'NM-MT' card when PSA kicked it back N1.

    Assuming this is the auction in question--Mays auction-- I have a very hard time believing that anyone who routinely submits to PSA wouldn't have submitted this card for grading before selling it raw. If this isn't the auction of interest then it would interesting to see a link to the auction page of the card we're discussing.
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    alnavmanalnavman Posts: 4,129 ✭✭✭
    Scott, you must type faster than me.....I was posting the same thing you said....EX/MT once you deduct the two grades......still I am like many others, would rather have a straight 6 than an 8 with a "Q"......al.
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    WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭


    << <i>or is the intent to point out that this card is from a noted "supposed" trimmer??? >>





    No. The intent from me (at least) was to ascertain why a 1955 Bowman Mays in possibly PSA 8 condition was being sold raw in

    the first place. I've never knew Bobby to be known as a supposed trimmer. I've known him to be a decent ebayer and B/S/T

    participant. Unless of course I am not understanding you and you are implying the buyer is a noted supposed trimmer?


    Steve
    Good for you.
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    alnavmanalnavman Posts: 4,129 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>or is the intent to point out that this card is from a noted "supposed" trimmer??? >>





    No. The intent from me (at least) was to ascertain why a 1955 Bowman Mays in possibly PSA 8 condition was being sold raw in

    the first place. I've never knew Bobby to be known as a supposed trimmer. I've known him to be a decent ebayer and B/S/T

    participant. Unless of course I am not understanding you and you are implying the buyer is a noted supposed trimmer?


    Steve >>



    LET ME STATE LOUDLY!!!....I AM IN NO WAY IMPLYING ANYONE IS A TRIMMER>>>>>>>

    I was just trying to understand how you can send back a card to someone. Now I believe what I am hearing is that if someone states that a card can be graded then one should expect that it is graded and not returned EOT. And I guess my argument for the Fleer cards was answered by myself since with the two grade downturn it's right where the seller said they were......thanks everyone.

    al.
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    detroitfan2detroitfan2 Posts: 3,314 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>If the card looks "sharp" I am curious as to why the OP/seller would not have it graded prior to selling. >>




    I imagine the seller did, in fact, try to have this card graded, and then decided to pass the buck on to the next guy by selling it as a raw 'NM-MT' card when PSA kicked it back N1.

    Assuming this is the auction in question--Mays auction-- I have a very hard time believing that anyone who routinely submits to PSA wouldn't have submitted this card for grading before selling it raw. If this isn't the auction of interest then it would interesting to see a link to the auction page of the card we're discussing. >>



    Yep, sure would like the OP to address this, especially when the raw card auction states "All of our graded cards have been authenticated by the best 3rd party graders available (PSA, SGC, & BGS/BVG). Anything not graded by one of these grading companies isn't worth the money paid for it."
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    WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Is this what they call a train wreck in the making?

    Steve
    Good for you.
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    otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Yep, sure would like the OP to address this, especially when the raw card auction states "All of our graded cards have been authenticated by the best 3rd party graders available (PSA, SGC, & BGS/BVG). Anything not graded by one of these grading companies isn't worth the money paid for it." >>



    I think you're misreading the last sentence. I believe he is saying the same thing I say, which in essence is, any card graded by a service other than the big three isn't worth the money you'll typically spend on it. I don't think he was referring to raw cards versus graded cards, as you, I believe, are implying.
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    WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Oh I dunno Scott, it does say:


    Anything..........

    choo chooo




    Steve
    Good for you.
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    detroitfan2detroitfan2 Posts: 3,314 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Yep, sure would like the OP to address this, especially when the raw card auction states "All of our graded cards have been authenticated by the best 3rd party graders available (PSA, SGC, & BGS/BVG). Anything not graded by one of these grading companies isn't worth the money paid for it." >>



    I think you're misreading the last sentence. I believe he is saying the same thing I say, which in essence is, any card graded by a service other than the big three isn't worth the money you'll typically spend on it. I don't think he was referring to raw cards versus graded cards, as you, I believe, are implying. >>



    Fair enough point Scott. But I wish Boo's post would be addressed. Why was the card sold raw?
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    otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Fair enough point Scott. But I wish Boo's post would be addressed. Why was the card sold raw? >>



    Because it is narrow top to bottom and the bottom edge looks "unoriginal." I'm not suggesting that the seller did anything other than offer the card for sale, but from the images provided, the card demonstrates, in my opinion, evidence of being trimmed.
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    bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭
    I will answer all questions later.....right now I AM PREPARING FOR THE PSA FOOTBALL DRAFT!!! Good luck to all involved!! Anyone here playing?
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    BarfvaderBarfvader Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭✭
    image
    image

    Jeff

    Miscut Museum

    My Mess

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    bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭
    Nice card! Looks good to me!
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    WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    I'm satisfied.


    Steve
    Good for you.
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    bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭
    I tell you what....if the card is worthless, I will take worthless cards every day.....
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    WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Just refund the buyer and move on.

    Steve
    Good for you.
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    swartz1swartz1 Posts: 4,911 ✭✭✭
    so you are going to take the guys "word" that it was deemed trimmed by PSA?

    you are a better person than me...


    Looking for 1970 MLB Photostamps
    - uncut


    Positive Transactions - tennesseebanker, Ahmanfan, Donruss, Colebear, CDsNuts, rbdjr1, Downtown1974, yankeeno7, drewsef, mnolan, mrbud60, msassin, RipublicaninMass, AkbarClone, rustywilly, lsutigers1973, julen23 and nam812, plus many others...
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    bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭
    Yea...I guess I will have to.....as long as it is in the same shape and is the same card, I have no problem with that. I think the card looks sharp, and maybe I can get it signed (providing Mays can hold out a little while longer).....
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    WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    You could also send it to SGC, they may authenticate it.

    That way it will be in a slab and thus protected.

    Maybe clean up that bat ear first......


    image


    Steve
    Good for you.
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    bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭
    What is a bat ear? I had some 1933 World Wide Gums that had that (if you are talking about an outward curve)...seems like if someone wanted to trim a card, they wouldn't put a curve in it...does that mean it was sheet cut?
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    detroitfan2detroitfan2 Posts: 3,314 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Yea...I guess I will have to.....as long as it is in the same shape and is the same card, I have no problem with that. I think the card looks sharp, and maybe I can get it signed (providing Mays can hold out a little while longer)..... >>



    Still unsure why you didn't send it in for grading orginally. The last PSA 8 sold for over $600, and the last PSA 7 for $299.
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    BarfvaderBarfvader Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭✭
    image

    Jeff

    Miscut Museum

    My Mess

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    WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭


    << <i>seems like if someone wanted to trim a card, they wouldn't put a curve in it >>




    Ya think?


    Steve
    Good for you.
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    otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭
    Did someone else get an Etch-a-Sketch for summer break? image
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    stownstown Posts: 11,321 ✭✭✭
    image
    So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
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    detroitfan2detroitfan2 Posts: 3,314 ✭✭✭✭
    The other thing that Jeff's scans CLEARLY show is that the front of the card is larger than the back of the card.

    image
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    nam812nam812 Posts: 10,539 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Did someone else get an Etch-a-Sketch for summer break? image >>



    image
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