Gold Dollars

fruitloops

Looking for a very heavily worn gold dollar coin. Looked on ebay, and many coin websites. I can't seem to find one under $150. I really don't care about the grade, as long as it's not severely damaged. Cleaning is OK. VG condition etc is ok. Where can I find one in this grade? I remember seeing an ad a couple months ago from The Coin Depo a type II for $39. Seems to good to be true. Unfortunately Marks Newp List the $3K gold dollar is a bit out of my price range, although I admire his coins .

Appreciate any help. I plan to buy one and the gold dollar red/guide book.

Deagle74

Hi fruitloops,

here you have one:

ebay add

Regards, Rok

ambro51

One of the first things you'll learn from Bowers' book is that low grade undamaged gold dollars...especially the post civil war issues...are very very scarce. By that date, most were low mintage issues and either held by collectors of the day or consumed by jewelers. Only about TWO percent of all struck still exist! Type 1 coins, especially branch mint issues, circulated heavily. When the type 2 was introduced in 1855 the design was found faulty and wore heavily, with most of these melted not long afterwards. The type 3 coins stuck in San Francisco saw heavy circulation and your best shot at low grade may be an S mint. The eBay auction posted is most interesting too bad the seller didn't make a better effort to date the coin or provide a better photo. 1886 in F would be a Most rare coin for sure. 1866 is an amazingly scarce date also, ms or circulated. I am wondering if perhaps it is an 1856 which would be one of the few years that circulated long enough for this level of wear. Also the 5 in the date is lightly impressed into the dies that year and with wear can be difficult to see properly Good Luck!

BillJones

I would avoid buying any heavily worn gold dollars for a couple of reasons. First, these coins only saw extensive use prior to the Civil War. After the war there were some high mintages in years like 1873 and ’74, but by then widespread use of the coin had come to an end. Therefore it’s unusual to find a gold dollar that is worn down to less than VF condition because the coins did not circulate for that long. Only a dollar that might have been used as a pocket piece would have gone lower in grade than VF.

Quite often when a coin like this is found in low grade, you don’t get much of a price break when you go to buy it. Also when it comes time to sell, few collectors want such a piece because they can purchase a nicer coin for very little more money. For example the Gray Sheet price for a Type I gold dollar in Fine is $165 while the price in MS-60 is $235. For an extra $70 you can get a lot more coin, and if you are willing to spend the $165, why not invest $70 more?

The second issue has to due with counterfeits. Many years ago when I was just starting out as a collector, one of my aunts gave me several gold dollars. Two of them appeared to be badly worn with one in only Fair condition. As it turned out both of these badly worn pieces were counterfeits. Part of the “wear” had been placed on them to make them more acceptable to pass as a genuine coin.

In the long run, if you become a serious collector, you will not be pleased with a low grade example of a coin that often comes better. By then it will be too late because you will be stuck with a coin that will be hard to sell that displeases you.

My advice is save $180 to $200 and buy a nice circulated example. When I was dealer I handled some decent certified examples of the Type I gold dollar for less than $200.

MrBear

Remember that gold dollars are about 1/20 of a troy ounce, so the melt value would be around $60. Not sure how you'd be able to find a genuine one in ANY condition for less than that.

Not to hijack the thread, but I have an interesting gold dollar situation. Last year I bought an 1880 MS67 for $4600, and another (same grade) in May for a few hundred less. I just won one in the recent Heritage auction (same grade!) for about $3200. I know that prices can fluctuate, but that's more like winning the lottery!

earlyAurum

Hi,

Sorry to bother you but may I ask why you are buying multiples of the same coin? I have that impluse too. Is it familiarity or are you studying. Those are two reasons that probably push me to do the same.

Thanks,
Tony

fruitloops

<< <i>I would avoid buying any heavily worn gold dollars for a couple of reasons. First, these coins only saw extensive use prior to the Civil War. After the war there were some high mintages in years like 1873 and ’74, but by then widespread use of the coin had come to an end. Therefore it’s unusual to find a gold dollar that is worn down to less than VF condition because the coins did not circulate for that long. Only a dollar that might have been used as a pocket piece would have gone lower in grade than VF. Quite often when a coin like this is found in low grade, you don’t get much of a price break when you go to buy it. Also when it comes time to sell, few collectors want such a piece because they can purchase a nicer coin for very little more money. For example the Gray Sheet price for a Type I gold dollar in Fine is $165 while the price in MS-60 is $235. For an extra $70 you can get a lot more coin, and if you are willing to spend the $165, why not invest $70 more? The second issue has to due with counterfeits. Many years ago when I was just starting out as a collector, one of my aunts gave me several gold dollars. Two of them appeared to be badly worn with one in only Fair condition. As it turned out both of these badly worn pieces were counterfeits. Part of the “wear” had been placed on them to make them more acceptable to pass as a genuine coin. In the long run, if you become a serious collector, you will not be pleased with a low grade example of a coin that often comes better. By then it will be too late because you will be stuck with a coin that will be hard to sell that displeases you. My advice is save $180 to $200 and buy a nice circulated example. When I was dealer I handled some decent certified examples of the Type I gold dollar for less than $200. >>




Very good advice. I am very familiar with counterfeits, my reasoning for a heavily worn one is that I read in the counterfeit gold book with Bill Fivaz that as a general rule, most gold under XF has a good chance of being genuine. However I've also read the book Numismatic Forgery and am very well aware of artificial wear to make a fake coin look genuine. I will take your advice and save $200 or so to buy a high end circulated piece.

fruitloops

<< <i>Hi,

Sorry to bother you but may I ask why you are buying multiples of the same coin? I have that impluse too. Is it familiarity or are you studying. Those are two reasons that probably push me to do the same.

Thanks,
Tony >>



Hi, I'm not. I used to own a gold dollar, but I sold it long ago. I'm interested in buying a gold dollar, so I can say I have and read/learn more about them with Bowers gold dollar book.

coinguy1

<< <i>

<< <i>Hi,

Sorry to bother you but may I ask why you are buying multiples of the same coin? I have that impluse too. Is it familiarity or are you studying. Those are two reasons that probably push me to do the same.

Thanks,
Tony >>



Hi, I'm not. I used to own a gold dollar, but I sold it long ago. I'm interested in buying a gold dollar, so I can say I have and read/learn more about them with Bowers gold dollar book. >>

Kevin, I believe that question was directed at poster MrBear, who indicated that he bought three different MS67 examples.

ambro51

The late Harry Bass was mesmerized by the seeming rarity of the low mintage (1600 coins) and I think har three ms67 examples when his great collection was sold a decade ago. This coin is a real odd case in that Im sure there are more ms67 s than even Xf. Heck my au55 is pop 2-500 or something like that. Buy your gold dollars by date and mm they are all special on their own way...rather than as generic type coins.

MrBear

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Hi,

Sorry to bother you but may I ask why you are buying multiples of the same coin? I have that impluse too. Is it familiarity or are you studying. Those are two reasons that probably push me to do the same.

Thanks,
Tony >>



Hi, I'm not. I used to own a gold dollar, but I sold it long ago. I'm interested in buying a gold dollar, so I can say I have and read/learn more about them with Bowers gold dollar book. >>

Kevin, I believe that question was directed at poster MrBear, who indicated that he bought three different MS67 examples. >>



I also have an MS64. ;-)

I wanted an 1880 because of the low mintage. Last summer, I bid on a 64 and a 67 at the LA show and won both, accidentally. So, being now in possession of two coins, I was inspired to collect 16 so as to own 1% of the Mint's output.

earlyAurum

<< <i>
I also have an MS64. ;-)

I wanted an 1880 because of the low mintage. Last summer, I bid on a 64 and a 67 at the LA show and won both, accidentally. So, being now in possession of two coins, I was inspired to collect 16 so as to own 1% of the Mint's output.

<< <i>

Thanks for replying.

CoinCrazyPA

<< <i>Hi,

Sorry to bother you but may I ask why you are buying multiples of the same coin? I have that impluse too. Is it familiarity or are you studying. Those are two reasons that probably push me to do the same.

Thanks,
Tony >>



I have that tendency also. I study them, look at the die patterns, strikes, color and so. Eventually I decide which coin I like the most and sell the others.

MrBear

I SHOULD study them. But I travel for work all the time, and they're in my SDB, so it's more like I'm hording them.

Interestingly, the two MS67s I have (I won't be getting the new one for a few weeks) are both CAC'd, but the slighly less expensive one has a LOT more eye appeal.

I also noticed that Heritage sold a PCGS-graded 1880 MS67 for over $6000 in June. Mine are all NGC. I know there's often a premium for PCGS, but that's crazy!

MrBear

I picked up my "new" 1880 gold dollar on Friday (first time home in about five weeks). In terms of eye appeal, it fell between my other two MS67s. I went right to the Long Beach Show after I picked up my mail, and took it to the PCGS booth. Apparently it crossed. Now I'm wondering if I should have given them my other two...

mrearlygold

<< <i>Hi,

Sorry to bother you but may I ask why you are buying multiples of the same coin? I have that impluse too. Is it familiarity or are you studying. Those are two reasons that probably push me to do the same.

Thanks,
Tony >>



I do the same ( personally ). It's an illness not a disease, I surrendered and admitted my powerlessness over it many years ago

RWB

For at least the final 15 years of issue, gold dollars went right to jewelry makers, particularly in Japan and Britain.

CaptHenway

<< <i>For at least the final 15 years of issue, gold dollars went right to jewelry makers, particularly in Japan and Britain. >>



I think you need to qualify that statement with a "some" in it.
TD

RWB

OK..."most" is more accurate.

See the article in Coin World 04/17/06, p. 96

“The only demand for gold dollars since 1874, has been from Jewelers, who, on being interrogated, have said that they wanted them for necklaces, bangles, studs, buttons, et cetera, to accommodate customers; from individuals, at sundry times, who have asked for the coin admittedly for jewelry purposes, or for transmission to England to be made into jewelry; from coin collectors and speculators whose demand has not been for circulation; and from a few persons here, at New York, at Boston and at San Francisco, who have procured the coins for purposes connected with, and pertaining to Christmas and New Year. “

[Mark Cobb, Cashier at the Philadelphia Mint, March 19, 1887]

PS: The article was peer reviewed by David Akers.

CaptHenway

What about the hoard of them that the Mint still had that it sold to a dealer after 1889?
TD

ambro51

In regards to the 1880 issue... To quote from Breen."most of the (1600) of the 1880 went to hoarders; during the 1950's and 1960's, the holdings of Horace L. P. Brand, Charles E. Green, and others yielded hundreds of choice examples. Smaller hoards turned up of other dates in the period; all are available for a price. Worn survivors are very unusual, and apparently non existant for 1880, which almost always come prooflike UNC. Type collectors have scooped up many of these, especially as the coins are attractive sharp strikings."


...and BTW my 1880 PCGS AU55....is 2-387!!!

The use by jewelers started with the first 1849's, and went all the way though the 1889's. Proofs as well as circulation strikes..though oddly, the number of impaired proofs one sees is FAR less than the number one would suspect. I guess a lot went right to the melt pot. Only one percent of all gold dollars struck still survive, though there were still a few in active circulation in the west well into the 20th century. Active numismatic hoarding really started with the 1879 issue, all years before have a much lower survival/mintage ratio than those after. None escaped the jeweler, even the rare 1861 D and the 1875 both show up formerly mounted. It is interesting to note that early auctions, late 19th century, and up to the mid 20th century...do not 'blacklist' these slightly impaired coins...such was the rarity and rage for collecting the series at that time.

RWB

TD:
In 1912 the Treasurer's personal hoard included 313 gold dollars, with all but one dated 1889. These were all sold to Henry Chapman for $2.00 each.

I have no information on pre-1912 quantities.

MrBear

<< <i>TD:
In 1912 the Treasurer's personal hoard included 313 gold dollars, with all but one dated 1889. These were all sold to Henry Chapman for $2.00 each.

I have no information on pre-1912 quantities. >>



I guess that explains why it seems like Heritage always has at least one 1889 for auction.

CaptHenway

<< <i>TD:
In 1912 the Treasurer's personal hoard included 313 gold dollars, with all but one dated 1889. These were all sold to Henry Chapman for $2.00 each.

I have no information on pre-1912 quantities. >>



I wonder how many they sold to collectors and/or out the cash window between 1889 and 1912 that never made it into jewelry?

TD

RWB

The Treasurer's Treasure was not distributed through normal channels. The coins were kept by the Treasurer as special souvenirs for sale at face value to politically connected visitors. Usually, these were the wives and daughters of members of Congress or political friends visiting Washington from “back home.” Most of the hoard consisted of gold $1, $2.50 and $3, but I’ve yet to locate an accounting earlier than 1912.

A. Piatt Andrew stopped the practice in 1912 and had the remaining coins transferred to the Philadelphia Mint collection. The excess coins were to be sold and the profit used to improve the mint collection. This was done.

[See “Renaissance of American Coinage 1909-1915” for details.]