Okay, so what is the difference in buying someone's collection for pennies on the dollar when you know what it's really worth? Is it the unknowledgeable seller's fault, so you just run with it? I'm not saying that's something you have done or ever would do, but is it not the exact same mind-set?
Hmmm, semantics! I love this topic. The self-righteous will profess to making sure to educate a seller so as not to take advantage of them while in actuality, this is typically not the case.
Trying to overlap the scenarios of taking "advantage" of a seller versus conning a buyer won't work when viewed with simple logic, but the skewed minds of some posters will obviously attempt to demonstrate some sort of correlation or relationship between the two.
Simple examination of the two scenarios would present the following:
CONNING A BUYER: A seller seeking a buyer and misleading the buyer with the illusion or false promise of substantial financial or materialistic gain. The buyer, to be conned, must set aside logic and reason and buy into their own greed to circumvent the red flags that most observers would catch immediately.
TAKING ADVANTAGE OF A SELLER: This will be examined in several parts...
A.) Taking advantage of a seller unaware of the goods they are holding absent an open market: A buyer would deceive the seller or underestimate the value to the seller of the goods that are being offered knowing that the seller has no working knowledge or vehicle to ascertain the value of said item(s).
B.) Meeting the asking price of the seller even though the asking price is substantially below market value. In this case, the buyer does not inform the seller of the value or make mention of the fact that they are willing and able to pay more.
B-1.) Soliciting a seller to provide an asking price for said item(s) and negotiating from the asking price. Typically occurs when the potential buyer learns of a private collection of goods or an inheritance that has not been offered for public sale.
C.) Informing and/or educating the seller on the value of their material and offering to pay fair market value for said item(s).
My guess is that most buyers would fall into group B. There is nothing wrong with this as the seller has had ample time and opportunity to research and develop a reasonable expectation of the value of their material. Section B-1 is a little more in the gray area as it suggests a seller may have been steered into creating an offer without time to gather information to form a proper asking price.
I have been contracted to evaluate, assess and/or make offers on collections over the years. When I am contracted to evaluate, assess or appraise a collection, I have a moral (and legal) responsibility to provide an accurate representation of the market value of the material and the expected sales price. If I am asked to view a collection and make an offer, I have no responsibility to the seller and can offer as little as pennies on the dollar, although my offer will be solely dependent upon the want for the material and the ease in liquidation of same.
I will venture a guess that more than a few of the self-righteous do-gooders would pay the old woman down the street the $50.00 she is asking for the cigar box of old tobacco cards her husband left behind REGARDLESS of whether they SAY they'd properly evaluate, educate and inform the seller and offer a fair price in excess of her asking price.
This is an eBay deal. You may know you're high bidder at what you think to be a ridiculously low amount, but you know that other people could be ready to snipe the item at full market value - and that you won't know until the auction is over whether you got a steal.
If your auction listing was awful, and you only get 10-20% of what a properly listed lot (or lots, since the problem is often that they lump lots of things together without the key words making it into the title), that's your fault as the seller, not the buyer's responsibility You, as the seller, offered it to the whole world that way, and you chose when and how to offer it.
<< <i>In what other aspect of life do people who get scammed get more grief than in the collectibles hobby. We spend our entire lives looking for the greatest deal ever in this "hobby", then some have the nerve to blame a buyer for getting scammed. It's sanctimonious BS and anyone who really believes that the scammed party is at fault and doesn't chastise the scammer is lying to themselves and everyone else. It's all a bunch of lies. Proof being that if you were ever scammed or are scammed, you would be pissed off, demand restitution and you wouldn't be here blaming yourself. >>
I would have to believe that the OP knew about this forum before he bid on these cards, but didn't want to post the auction here for advice, before buying and receiving the cards likely figuring a number of things...a few of which, in my opinion, would be he didn't want to "alert the public" about such a great deal or he didn't want somebody else contacting the seller in any way shape or form to alert the seller that he had some most valuable cards there if they were graded. The buyer is to blame for that and as others have noted, it's called "greed", and there's nothing wrong with trying to make money in this situation if you're knowledgeable about the subject and know the marketplace, and the buyer, in my view, didn't know either...and that's what led him to be scammed
Of course the seller is a POS scammer - that's a given....and here's why...because I would say the chances are 100% the seller even if the "description story" were true, had taken the collection to some baseball card shops and was clearly told the cards were reprints.
<< <i>This is an eBay deal. You may know you're high bidder at what you think to be a ridiculously low amount, but you know that other people could be ready to snipe the item at full market value - and that you won't know until the auction is over whether you got a steal.
If your auction listing was awful, and you only get 10-20% of what a properly listed lot (or lots, since the problem is often that they lump lots of things together without the key words making it into the title), that's your fault as the seller, not the buyer's responsibility You, as the seller, offered it to the whole world that way, and you chose when and how to offer it.
Nick >>
I agree and what made this auction not applicable to that, is that this auction was properly listed.
If the seller would have misspelled Goudey or something like that, I would suspect many ebayers might not find it, but just from "baseball cards collection", and especially "Goudey", an auction like this is going to create a lot of interest. The auction had only 95 views which tells me that with virtually every first view, the potential bidders knew it was a scam and didn't go back to it, and didn't alert their collector friends, etc to take a look at it, all of which would have created a lot more than 95 hits.
Probably 20 or 30 hits alone were from this thread. LOL
Actually steve, that would be an awful listing for an auction of real Goudey HOFer cards. No player names were in the title, and the year isn't even listed. The only search term that experienced collectors might use is Goudey - and unless you're searching Goudey by itself (e.g., not searching 1933 Goudey), it wouldn't come up.
<< <i>Actually steve, that would be an awful listing for an auction of real Goudey HOFer cards. No player names were in the title, and the year isn't even listed. The only search term that experienced collectors might use is Goudey - and unless you're searching Goudey by itself (e.g., not searching 1933 Goudey), it wouldn't come up.
Nick >>
Well, we all have our various search styles and collecting interests, and for buyers looking to find large lots such as this, typing in "goudey baseball cards", then auctions, and then "price:highest first", in my search quickly finds the lots I'm interested in buying, and based on the way I find these type of lots to be extremely competitive in the bidding, others are finding these lots as well. If this lot were genuine, it definitively would have received much more than only 95 hits, and of course would have sold for much more than $700.
I do odd searches too - I've been known to just search "goudey" or other vintage card manufacturer names, but I doubt any serious collector is adding the words "baseball cards" into their search terms - mainly because it will knock out all the legit auctions where the seller doesn't list something that obvious.
<< <i>I do odd searches too - I've been known to just search "goudey" or other vintage card manufacturer names, but I doubt any serious collector is adding the words "baseball cards" into their search terms - mainly because it will knock out all the legit auctions where the seller doesn't list something that obvious.
Nick >>
Nick - you may not realize that the ebay search algorithm isn't what it used to be. Check out the below link which is goudey baseball cards, then auction, then price:highest first...I think you'll find a lot of auctions for the "serious collector"
The buyer thought he was pulling a fast one and was going to make quick profit.
Unless it can be proven that the seller new they were indeed fake, I say the deal stands and buyer paid 7 times as much as the reprints cost. There have been tons of auctions on Jordan Fleer and Star rookie's that were reprints that sold for a decent amount with the buyer taking a chance. WIth EBAY being an open marketplace astute buyers would have bid this auction up a great deal. The opening bid was $100 from a large volume dealer but the rest of the bids came from buyers with much lower feedback. The feedback rating along does not tell how knowledgable a buyer is but when dealing in very old and very valuable cards it is certainly is a clue.
I hope the thread starter comes back and tells us the outcome assuming this is not a rib.
So a new bidder does not know as much as someone with high feedback? That's like saying someone here with a high post count knows more than someone with a low one.
I know many people who will create a new Ebay ID just to buy gifts with and then never use it again this don't mean they know more or less.
In this case though I imagine at least one of the other IDs was a shill bidder.
<< <i>I do odd searches too - I've been known to just search "goudey" or other vintage card manufacturer names, but I doubt any serious collector is adding the words "baseball cards" into their search terms - mainly because it will knock out all the legit auctions where the seller doesn't list something that obvious.
Nick >>
Nick - you may not realize that the ebay search algorithm isn't what it used to be. Check out the below link which is goudey baseball cards, then auction, then price:highest first...I think you'll find a lot of auctions for the "serious collector"
Search goudey: 1177 results Search goudey baseball cards: 1035 results, most of which don't have baseball cards in the title (and many of which don't put it in the description either). I ran the same search with t206, which got 845 results, and t206 baseball cards, which got 189 results. Trying it with t205 got me 389 results, and t205 baseball cards brought 354 results.
Whaever they've done to their algorithm, it's neither consistent nor good.
There are a ton of read flags in the auction. Anytime someone has a sob story be carefull and when the seller takes the time to say he is not responsible for the auction yet EBAY says at the top you are you just move on.
I think it is BS to scam people but look at the pictures of those cards. You can tell by the glossy nature of them they can not be 75 years old.
I don't collect older cards and by no means am I an expert on them. I like a few others think it is a buyer beware market and if you don't know much about a subject research it.
The person buying them thought he had pulled off the heist of the century and if it blows up on him I really don't feel that bad. If he was smart and paid with a Credit Card via PayPal he probably gets his money back anyways so all of this opinion discussion probably is irelavant.
The most probable outcome is the buyer will get his money back. If you paid PayPal with a credit card you could first do a dispute with PayPal and second with the credit card company.
This was a very sneaky seller as he never guarenteed their authenticity and played very dumb. Where he made a critical mistake was saying he could almost guarentee that these cards had never seen the day of light in almost 50 years. Even though he toes the line he gives ample reason to buyer to believe they are buying cards that are indeed older then when the remakes hit the market.
Becuase the goverment is really starting to crack down on illegal remakes these cards will fall into that category even though they most likely were made with the market knowing they were copies. A judge would rule in favor of the buyer as they clearly were duped into buying this set with all intentions of it being real.
The market is just smarter then that and all a BS auction like this could comand was $712. This proves that many who search frequently know what they are buying.
You are wrong, since these cards have been actively reprinted and sold for $100 per set online with severall websites offering them that is not the case.
These are being distributed legaly with re printed sets this is a case of someone over bidding for a bad item.
The credit card companies will side with the buyer and unless the seller wants to take it to a small clames court he will lose to the credit card company his PayPal account is set up with.
In most cases a seller like this knows they are fake and lets make something very clear I do think an atempt at crime was commited here. I just am tired of this world feeling sorry for total morons.
Because the credit card companies defend their clients. I think the guy should have to eat the loss but the system doesn't. Like I said the first time, he thought he was hitting the lotery but it was too good to be true. We want to bail everyone out for every stupid move they make. I think he is a retard for looking at these pics and thinking these cards were that old.
Instead he will get his money back.
This is one of those rare cases where the seller clearly commits fraud but I am not that sympathetic. There are plenty of know counterfiet cards or reprints. I have an awesome Jordan Star Reprint that has sold for $0.99 and $200.00. If you are dumb enough to buy cards in this nature then so be it.
If the market was truely efficiant then cards like this would sell for pennies not hundreds!
Sad when you call someone a retard (something I truly can't stand BTW) and you have the spelling skills of a 4th grader.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
The auction is misleading, and you should get a refund. But if you left feedback already... I dont know???
PS this type of reprint are from the 1980-90s and are the 2nd easiest of the 2 dozen types of R319 reprints out there. The only ones easier are the related ones with the perforated edges made by Dover.
#1 rule for a newbie collecting a set he is not familar with, buy a couple common card in VG and look it over good to see how it was printed and look closely at the card stock. You will rarely get fooled on PreWar if you do this simple $10 buy.
Comments
<< <i>knowledge is power. >>
Okay, so what is the difference in buying someone's collection for pennies on the dollar when you know what it's really worth? Is it the unknowledgeable seller's fault, so you just run with it? I'm not saying that's something you have done or ever would do, but is it not the exact same mind-set?
Trying to overlap the scenarios of taking "advantage" of a seller versus conning a buyer won't work when viewed with simple logic, but the skewed minds of some posters will obviously attempt to demonstrate some sort of correlation or relationship between the two.
Simple examination of the two scenarios would present the following:
CONNING A BUYER: A seller seeking a buyer and misleading the buyer with the illusion or false promise of substantial financial or materialistic gain. The buyer, to be conned, must set aside logic and reason and buy into their own greed to circumvent the red flags that most observers would catch immediately.
TAKING ADVANTAGE OF A SELLER: This will be examined in several parts...
A.) Taking advantage of a seller unaware of the goods they are holding absent an open market: A buyer would deceive the seller or underestimate the value to the seller of the goods that are being offered knowing that the seller has no working knowledge or vehicle to ascertain the value of said item(s).
B.) Meeting the asking price of the seller even though the asking price is substantially below market value. In this case, the buyer does not inform the seller of the value or make mention of the fact that they are willing and able to pay more.
B-1.) Soliciting a seller to provide an asking price for said item(s) and negotiating from the asking price. Typically occurs when the potential buyer learns of a private collection of goods or an inheritance that has not been offered for public sale.
C.) Informing and/or educating the seller on the value of their material and offering to pay fair market value for said item(s).
My guess is that most buyers would fall into group B. There is nothing wrong with this as the seller has had ample time and opportunity to research and develop a reasonable expectation of the value of their material. Section B-1 is a little more in the gray area as it suggests a seller may have been steered into creating an offer without time to gather information to form a proper asking price.
I have been contracted to evaluate, assess and/or make offers on collections over the years. When I am contracted to evaluate, assess or appraise a collection, I have a moral (and legal) responsibility to provide an accurate representation of the market value of the material and the expected sales price. If I am asked to view a collection and make an offer, I have no responsibility to the seller and can offer as little as pennies on the dollar, although my offer will be solely dependent upon the want for the material and the ease in liquidation of same.
I will venture a guess that more than a few of the self-righteous do-gooders would pay the old woman down the street the $50.00 she is asking for the cigar box of old tobacco cards her husband left behind REGARDLESS of whether they SAY they'd properly evaluate, educate and inform the seller and offer a fair price in excess of her asking price.
If your auction listing was awful, and you only get 10-20% of what a properly listed lot (or lots, since the problem is often that they lump lots of things together without the key words making it into the title), that's your fault as the seller, not the buyer's responsibility You, as the seller, offered it to the whole world that way, and you chose when and how to offer it.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>In what other aspect of life do people who get scammed get more grief than in the collectibles hobby. We spend our entire lives looking for the greatest deal ever in this "hobby", then some have the nerve to blame a buyer for getting scammed. It's sanctimonious BS and anyone who really believes that the scammed party is at fault and doesn't chastise the scammer is lying to themselves and everyone else. It's all a bunch of lies. Proof being that if you were ever scammed or are scammed, you would be pissed off, demand restitution and you wouldn't be here blaming yourself. >>
I would have to believe that the OP knew about this forum before he bid on these cards, but didn't want to post the auction here for advice, before buying and receiving the cards likely figuring a number of things...a few of which, in my opinion, would be he didn't want to "alert the public" about such a great deal or he didn't want somebody else contacting the seller in any way shape or form to alert the seller that he had some most valuable cards there if they were graded. The buyer is to blame for that and as others have noted, it's called "greed", and there's nothing wrong with trying to make money in this situation if you're knowledgeable about the subject and know the marketplace, and the buyer, in my view, didn't know either...and that's what led him to be scammed
Of course the seller is a POS scammer - that's a given....and here's why...because I would say the chances are 100% the seller even if the "description story" were true, had taken the collection to some baseball card shops and was clearly told the cards were reprints.
<< <i>This is an eBay deal. You may know you're high bidder at what you think to be a ridiculously low amount, but you know that other people could be ready to snipe the item at full market value - and that you won't know until the auction is over whether you got a steal.
If your auction listing was awful, and you only get 10-20% of what a properly listed lot (or lots, since the problem is often that they lump lots of things together without the key words making it into the title), that's your fault as the seller, not the buyer's responsibility You, as the seller, offered it to the whole world that way, and you chose when and how to offer it.
Nick >>
I agree and what made this auction not applicable to that, is that this auction was properly listed.
<<< RARE COLLECTION! Amazing Vintage Goudey Baseball Cards >>
If the seller would have misspelled Goudey or something like that, I would suspect many ebayers might not find it, but just from "baseball cards collection", and especially "Goudey", an auction like this is going to create a lot of interest. The auction had only 95 views which tells me that with virtually every first view, the potential bidders knew it was a scam and didn't go back to it, and didn't alert their collector friends, etc to take a look at it, all of which would have created a lot more than 95 hits.
Probably 20 or 30 hits alone were from this thread. LOL
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>Actually steve, that would be an awful listing for an auction of real Goudey HOFer cards. No player names were in the title, and the year isn't even listed. The only search term that experienced collectors might use is Goudey - and unless you're searching Goudey by itself (e.g., not searching 1933 Goudey), it wouldn't come up.
Nick >>
Well, we all have our various search styles and collecting interests, and for buyers looking to find large lots such as this, typing in "goudey baseball cards", then auctions, and then "price:highest first", in my search quickly finds the lots I'm interested in buying, and based on the way I find these type of lots to be extremely competitive in the bidding, others are finding these lots as well. If this lot were genuine, it definitively would have received much more than only 95 hits, and of course would have sold for much more than $700.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>I do odd searches too - I've been known to just search "goudey" or other vintage card manufacturer names, but I doubt any serious collector is adding the words "baseball cards" into their search terms - mainly because it will knock out all the legit auctions where the seller doesn't list something that obvious.
Nick >>
Nick - you may not realize that the ebay search algorithm isn't what it used to be. Check out the below link which is goudey baseball cards, then auction, then price:highest first...I think you'll find a lot of auctions for the "serious collector"
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?LH_Auction=1&_trkparms=65%253A12%257C66%253A2%257C39%253A1%257C72%253A2564&_nkw=goudey+baseball+cards&_dmpt=US_Baseball&_sticky=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_sop=3&_sc=1
The buyer thought he was pulling a fast one and was going to make quick profit.
Unless it can be proven that the seller new they were indeed fake, I say the deal stands and buyer paid 7 times as much as the reprints cost. There have been tons of auctions on Jordan Fleer and Star rookie's that were reprints that sold for a decent amount with the buyer taking a chance. WIth EBAY being an open marketplace astute buyers would have bid this auction up a great deal. The opening bid was $100 from a large volume dealer but the rest of the bids came from buyers with much lower feedback. The feedback rating along does not tell how knowledgable a buyer is but when dealing in very old and very valuable cards it is certainly is a clue.
I hope the thread starter comes back and tells us the outcome assuming this is not a rib.
I know many people who will create a new Ebay ID just to buy gifts with and then never use it again this don't mean they know more or less.
In this case though I imagine at least one of the other IDs was a shill bidder.
<< <i>
Unless it can be proven that the seller new they were indeed fake, I say the deal stands and buyer paid 7 times as much as the reprints cost. >>
nice
<< <i>
<< <i>I do odd searches too - I've been known to just search "goudey" or other vintage card manufacturer names, but I doubt any serious collector is adding the words "baseball cards" into their search terms - mainly because it will knock out all the legit auctions where the seller doesn't list something that obvious.
Nick >>
Nick - you may not realize that the ebay search algorithm isn't what it used to be. Check out the below link which is goudey baseball cards, then auction, then price:highest first...I think you'll find a lot of auctions for the "serious collector"
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?LH_Auction=1&_trkparms=65%253A12%257C66%253A2%257C39%253A1%257C72%253A2564&_nkw=goudey+baseball+cards&_dmpt=US_Baseball&_sticky=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_sop=3&_sc=1 >>
Search goudey: 1177 results
Search goudey baseball cards: 1035 results, most of which don't have baseball cards in the title (and many of which don't put it in the description either).
I ran the same search with t206, which got 845 results, and t206 baseball cards, which got 189 results.
Trying it with t205 got me 389 results, and t205 baseball cards brought 354 results.
Whaever they've done to their algorithm, it's neither consistent nor good.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
I think it is BS to scam people but look at the pictures of those cards. You can tell by the glossy nature of them they can not be 75 years old.
I don't collect older cards and by no means am I an expert on them. I like a few others think it is a buyer beware market and if you don't know much about a subject research it.
The person buying them thought he had pulled off the heist of the century and if it blows up on him I really don't feel that bad. If he was smart and paid with a Credit Card via PayPal he probably gets his money back anyways so all of this opinion discussion probably is irelavant.
<< <i>Unless it can be proven that the seller new they were indeed fake, I say the deal stands and buyer paid 7 times as much as the reprints cost. >>
Ummmm NO, first off it would not be 7 times if they are worth a buck or two each, secondly it does not matter what the seller knew or did not know
regarding the originality of the cards. If he sells them as original they must be original.
Steve
<< <i>The buyer thought he was pulling a fast one and was going to make quick profit. >>
Really? And you know this how? By his winning bid? For all anyone knows his final bid could have been at
fair market value. The final cost could have surprised him.
Yes the buyer appears naive.
I'm beginning to agree with SCT more and nore regarding this.
Steve
This was a very sneaky seller as he never guarenteed their authenticity and played very dumb. Where he made a critical mistake was saying he could almost guarentee that these cards had never seen the day of light in almost 50 years. Even though he toes the line he gives ample reason to buyer to believe they are buying cards that are indeed older then when the remakes hit the market.
Becuase the goverment is really starting to crack down on illegal remakes these cards will fall into that category even though they most likely were made with the market knowing they were copies. A judge would rule in favor of the buyer as they clearly were duped into buying this set with all intentions of it being real.
The market is just smarter then that and all a BS auction like this could comand was $712. This proves that many who search frequently know what they are buying.
<< <i>Unless it can be proven that the seller new they were indeed fake, I say the deal stands and buyer paid 7 times as much as the reprints cost. >>
You're mistaken. It doesn't matter if the seller knew or not - just whether they ARE or not. And they are.
Tabe
These are being distributed legaly with re printed sets this is a case of someone over bidding for a bad item.
The credit card companies will side with the buyer and unless the seller wants to take it to a small clames court he will lose to the credit card company his PayPal account is set up with.
In most cases a seller like this knows they are fake and lets make something very clear I do think an atempt at crime was commited here. I just am tired of this world feeling sorry for total morons.
Why then will PP and/or the CC issue a refund?
The seller is indeed scum, if you read his title and description he made damn sure never to say outright that these cards
are original and from the year of issue.
Steve
Dpeck each post you make you say one thing then contradict yourself in the next!
Steve
Instead he will get his money back.
This is one of those rare cases where the seller clearly commits fraud but I am not that sympathetic. There are plenty of know counterfiet cards or reprints. I have an awesome Jordan Star Reprint that has sold for $0.99 and $200.00. If you are dumb enough to buy cards in this nature then so be it.
If the market was truely efficiant then cards like this would sell for pennies not hundreds!
Steve
<< <i>I'm thinking DBOTW
Steve >>
+1
<< <i>Sad when you call someone a retard (something I truly can't stand BTW) and you have the spelling skills of a 4th grader. >>
I can't either.
PS this type of reprint are from the 1980-90s and are the 2nd easiest of the 2 dozen types of R319 reprints out there. The only ones easier are the related ones with the perforated edges made by Dover.
#1 rule for a newbie collecting a set he is not familar with, buy a couple common card in VG and look it over good to see how it was printed and look closely at the card stock. You will rarely get fooled on PreWar if you do this simple $10 buy.