Question for those who buy or deal in silver bars and rounds.
PerryHall
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Have any of you guys seen or heard of silver bars or rounds that are fake or less than the stated fineness or weight indicated on the bars? I remember reading about some of the bigger silver bars that had been hollowed out and refilled with lead back in the early 1980's. Was this scam very extensive?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
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Occasionally we get crude fake, non-silver rounds in batches of stuff that tourists bought in China. Easy to spot, and easy to verify by light weight.
Did get burned ten years ago with some silver currency reproductions that were silver-plated copper.
TD
<< <i>Have any of you guys seen or heard of silver bars or rounds that are fake or less than the stated fineness or weight indicated on the bars? >>
There are a handful of 1oz coins/rounds that are fake/counterfeit, plus some 100oz bars. I'm not aware of other sizes (or 1oz bars) with serious problems. The fake 1oz ones I've seen were all made with a lighter base metal (so they typically weight ~23-26g; many are missing the denomination), so they are easy to detect. The 1oz silver Chinese Pandas are probably the most common by far, but there are some fake 1oz silver Eagles (the one I'm familiar with is dated something like 1906, so there isn't even a need to weigh it).
My favorite is a 1oz round with a design similar to a Mercury dime, if I recall correctly, that was likely designed in China. The best part is that later on I came across a rectangular plate that was apparently used as part of the process of creating the medal.
<< <i> I remember reading about some of the bigger silver bars that had been hollowed out and refilled with lead back in the early 1980's. Was this scam very extensive? >>
There were two different types, all 100oz Engelhard bars. One type had 3 holes machined through the side that were filled with lead, the other type had the inside completely hollowed out and filled with lead slugs.
We have devoted a page at http://About.Ag/LeadFilled100OunceBars.htm to these bars, with pictures and details. We estimate perhaps around 1,000 of these bars made it into circulation (a minimum of around 200 definitely did), and from our mintage estimates, we figure about 1 in 2,000 Engelhard 100oz bars are lead filled. Also, if you do end up with a lead-filled bar, it does have a significant amount of silver left in it, so it isn't a 100% loss.
Let me add that we're still hoping to find a lead-filled 100oz bar to do some testing with; if anyone knows of someone who has one that would sell it or loan it for testing (we're positive the ultrasonic thickness gauge that we bought for the purpose would detect it, but need to know for sure), please let me know.
<< <i>Have any of you guys seen or heard of silver bars or rounds that are fake or less than the stated fineness or weight indicated on the bars? I remember reading about some of the bigger silver bars that had been hollowed out and refilled with lead back in the early 1980's. Was this scam very extensive? >>
Not on the one ozers....but I recently won a 10 oz credit suisse bar, that was obviously shaved somewhere in the last 20 years or so, weighing in at 9.85 oz troy....
<< <i>Not on the one ozers....but I recently won a 10 oz credit suisse bar, that was obviously shaved somewhere in the last 20 years or so, weighing in at 9.85 oz troy.... >>
Seems strange that anyone would go through that much trouble for such a small amount of silver. Have you verified that your scale is properly calibrated and is not weighing on the light side?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
"You can be at risk with 100-oz extruded Engelhard silver bars. A lot of 100-oz bars were drilled and filled with lead when the price of silver reached US$50 back in the early 1980s. Many people unwittingly purchased the 100-oz bars and the sat on them for years and years. Holes were drilled into one end and about 50 oz of silver were removed. The holes were then filled with lead, a layer of silver was replaced over the end and then the end was machined smooth and polished so that the only way a person could tell if a silver bar is legit is to drill or cut into it. "
<< <i>I would think that these lead filled bars would have some evidence on the outside of the bar being tampered with. Has anyone here actually examined one of these bars and, if so, can you comment on how easy it is to detect the seam? >>
According to most reports, it is hard to detect the seam. The FBI stated that the hollowed-out ones were virtually indistinguishable from the real thing (we're waiting to get more details from them). But I haven't actually handled a lead filled bar yet (still looking for one!), so I can't be sure.
<< <i>
<< <i>Not on the one ozers....but I recently won a 10 oz credit suisse bar, that was obviously shaved somewhere in the last 20 years or so, weighing in at 9.85 oz troy.... >>
Seems strange that anyone would go through that much trouble for such a small amount of silver. Have you verified that your scale is properly calibrated and is not weighing on the light side? >>
Scale is accurate ... shaving was not unusual...when silver was $40+ an oz...all you had to do is shave, if you were a bullion dealer, just a little bid from each bar, to make it worth your while.
<< <i>But I haven't actually handled a lead filled bar yet ...... >>
Are you really that sure?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I've been wanting to buy a 100 oz Engelhard poured bar & now you've spooked me...
Guess when I do buy one, I'll have to have it x-ray'd first...
<< <i>Oh Great ;(
I've been wanting to buy a 100 oz Engelhard poured bar & now you've spooked me...
Guess when I do buy one, I'll have to have it x-ray'd first... >>
This only happened with the extruded bars. Also, I doubt that an x-ray would work with a silver bar.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I see tons of fake silver rounds around but they are easy to spot. Never seen a fake bar yet.