The Red Book: where its prices come from, etc.

Dentuck

There have been some posts here recently, asking about the Red Book and its inner workings. I figured I’d start a new thread to answer some of the questions we frequently get from readers. (My name is Dennis Tucker and I’m Whitman’s publisher.)

If you collect coins. . . if you’ve ever wondered what a particular U.S. coin was. . . or how much your coins are worth. . . chances are you know about A Guide Book of United States Coins. When a new hobbyists asks, “Where can I go to learn about U.S. coins?” the answer they typically hear is “Get a Red Book!”

The “Red Book,” as the Guide Book is known to collectors, has been published since late 1946. It was a hit from the start, and today it remains the best-selling annual price guide for U.S. coins, bar none. The Red Book is truly the “gold standard” of numismatic references. Readers have bought and enjoyed more than 22 million copies.

Judging by our mail, coin collectors love to learn about the Red Book and its history. Here are some questions that we frequently hear at Whitman Publishing.

“How many Red Books are sold every year?”

Whitman Publishing has moved headquarters several times over the years. The company originally was based in Racine, Wisconsin, then in New York City and other places, and currently Atlanta. Records from the Red Book’s early decades are incomplete, and today Whitman doesn’t publicize annual sales numbers. However, these facts are interesting:

• The very first print run of 9,000 books, published in November 1946, sold out so quickly that another 9,000 copies were printed in February 1947.

• By 1959 more than 100,000 copies were being printed annually.

• The 18th edition (dated 1965, published in 1964) reached a peak of 1,200,000 copies sold!

• In 1964 the Red Book ranked fifth on the list of best-selling nonfiction—ahead of Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People (at no. 6) and John F. Kennedy’s Profiles in Courage (no. 9).

• The 10 millionth copy rolled off the printing press in 1971.

• All together, more than 22 million copies have been sold since the first edition—making the Red Book one of the best-selling nonfiction books in publishing history.

“Why is the Red Book’s cover date always a year ahead?”

The first edition of the Red Book was printed in November 1946. Because it was so late in the year, Whitman Publishing decided to give the book a cover date of 1947. That tradition has been followed ever since, so, for example, when the 63rd edition debuted in 2009, its cover date was 2010.

“Where do the coin prices come from?”

Whitman Publishing has a sophisticated online system that can be accessed by the Red Book’s pricing contributors. These contributors include more than 140 of the nation’s top coin dealers and researchers—active experts who buy, sell, trade, and study U.S. coins every business day of the year. (And for most of these folks, that includes weekends, too!) Our contributors analyze the retail and auction markets, and draw upon their firsthand knowledge, to come up with current pricing. First they focus on the series they specialize in, and then other series that they actively sell. All of this data goes into Whitman’s master database. A report is generated presenting all of the data—thousands of price points, covering more than 6,000 individual coins and sets. This master report is then carefully studied by two separate groups of pricing finalizers coordinated by Red Book editor Kenneth Bressett and valuations editor Jeff Garrett. The finalizers use decades of experience in numismatics to arrive at their final prices for each coin; they don’t simply take an average of all the prices submitted by contributors.

Thanks to the Internet and lightning-fast communications, the Red Book’s valuations are as current as possible when they go to press. Our contributors and editors keep an eye on the markets up to (and slightly beyond) the annual Florida United Numismatists show (the first major U.S. coin show held each year, in early January). They have time to adjust the book’s pricing to reflect auctions and retail activity at the FUN show. When the Red Book debuts a few weeks later, its pricing is as fresh as possible.

“What’s the difference between the Red Book and the Blue Book?”

One significant difference: the Red Book provides retail valuations for U.S. coins—how much you can expect to pay for a coin if you walked into a shop to buy it, or ordered it through the mail from a dealer. The Blue Book shows wholesale or buy prices—how much a dealer will pay you, on average, for specific coins.

“What’s the difference between the regular-edition Red Book and the Professional Edition?”

The Professional Edition has been described as “the Red Book on steroids.” It’s an expanded and enlarged book that builds on the foundation of the regular edition. The Professional Edition is intended for intermediate to advanced coin collectors, professional coin dealers, auctioneers, investors, and others who need even more information than the regular edition provides. It combines more photographs, detailed higher-grade valuations, listings of additional varieties and rare early Proof coins, certified-coin population data, auction data, and other valuable resources.

• This article discusses the Professional Edition and its features.
• Both the regular edition and the Professional Edition are published annually.

“Do people really collect Red Books?”

Indeed they do! Red Books are a popular collectible within the hobby community. The classic red hardcover editions, in particular, make a handsome bookshelf display. Collecting Red Books is not as simple as going to your local bookstore and buying one of each edition—remember that it’s been published since 1946, so you’re more likely to find the early editions in an antique shop or from a rare-book dealer! Many of the early editions are scarce and hard to find in nice condition. There are varieties to hunt for, official editorial copies, autographed copies, and rare special editions. You can even collect error Red Books, with misprinted covers, upside-down pages, and other anomalies!

For more information about collecting Red Books (and Red Book–related items like silver art bars and posters), see Frank J. Colletti’s Guide Book of the Official Red Book of United States Coins.

Steve27

Thanks, for the info, but I want to know who is responsible for the index? I looked up "Hard Times Tokens" in my 2011 copy and it shows pages 16, 376-378. Well page 16 is part of the book's intro and pages 376-378 are on "Private and Territorial gold" the correct pages are 388-390.

pmac

With tongue in cheek, I ask, "Why do you call this book non-fiction?"

crypto79

The way I use the redbook is as my go-to general book for mintage/ price flows(different then hard values). An encyclopedia so to speak, when the new one comes out I look for a confused novice/ a non-collector who came into some coins/ YN to pass the out of date one along to continue to perpetuate the hobby. It's small but it can't hurt.

EagleEye

Thanks for posting this Dennis.

19Lyds

<< <i>140 or so Dealers contributing price info, isn't that like having Bernie madoff as my financial counselor. How about 70 or so verified collectors and 70 or so dealers and 70 or so experts in the field. Why a publication want so many dealers who also pay to advertise in the publication and who also depend on price info to benefit themselves. Is it just me or is their something way off here, just asking the obvious. >>

read it again Alferd.................

"These contributors include more than 140 of the nation’s top coin dealers and researchers—active experts who buy, sell, trade, and study U.S. coins every business day of the year."

EagleEye

Adding collectors who are active in research like Gerry Fortin or HowardS would be excellent additions to the list of pricing editors. I don't know how they could qualify other more general collectors.

19Lyds

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>140 or so Dealers contributing price info, isn't that like having Bernie madoff as my financial counselor. How about 70 or so verified collectors and 70 or so dealers and 70 or so experts in the field. Why a publication want so many dealers who also pay to advertise in the publication and who also depend on price info to benefit themselves. Is it just me or is their something way off here, just asking the obvious. >>

read it again Alferd.................

"These contributors include more than 140 of the nation’s top coin dealers and researchers—active experts who buy, sell, trade, and study U.S. coins every business day of the year." >>



I did and I stand behind my question. It is easy for a publisher to be specifically vague with the words they use, interesting that publishers who rely on the written word often do just that. Since the word dealers is named first, and we know dealers consider themselves experts, and anyone who buys and sells and trades and studies coins every BUSINESS day is a dealer by definition. Then the only other possible type separately mentioned is expert and notice active experts are mentioned last and can mean a dealer or other and since the word collector was never mentioned then again I stand behind what I wrote. 19 lYDS maybe you need to adjust your microscope. >>

My microscope as well as my opinions are fully adjustable. One through necessity and the other through knowledge that hopefully is not tainted with cynicism. At least, not today.

19Lyds

<< <i>

<< <i>Adding collectors who are active in research like Gerry Fortin or HowardS would be excellent additions to the list of pricing editors. I don't know how they could qualify other more general collectors. >>



How about some members that are on these boards. >>

Adding collectors could be a two edged sword since collectors would have to be relied upon to report what they paid for a coin and not what they think a coin is worth.

Dealers on the other hand can report what the coin sold for.

Perhaps real Auction Houses (other than eBay) would be a better choice?

crypto79

<< <i>

<< <i>Adding collectors who are active in research like Gerry Fortin or HowardS would be excellent additions to the list of pricing editors. I don't know how they could qualify other more general collectors. >>



How about some members that are on these boards.

Edited to add, if the dealers were named and the dealers were also members of this board I would feel mucho comfortable. Imagine a dealer's /expert's list like the following:

Mark Feld
Andy Lustig
Tom
RWB
Tahoedale
Saintguru
Drpete
Bear
Laura Sperber

I am leaving out plenty but you get the picture.

On the other hand what if their list is composed of:
Steve contirsi
Bob Green >>



I respect you and the names you listed but your list reads more like a forum popularity list then anything else. I don't think that should be the bar for input & consulting collectors can be a doubled sided sward as they often are emotionally involved in their given series and are beyond being subjective. I for one would recommend putting Trade $'s on the cover and doubling the space they receive

ambro51

I will simply ask one question....

Do any of the contributors actually feel the value of a 1909 VDB Matte Proof LIncoln in PR63 is $2750? In that, if they entered the market today with that much cash, could they actually purchase such a coin at such a price?

and that is my one question....to which I ask you Dentuck, quite respectfully.

bstat1020

Thanks for posting the information.

Is there a full collection of Red Books at your facility or known within the company? Or anywhere?

Thanks,

Bstat

pmac

Where does everyone here find the relative value of a coin? I think the market is the best place, and the biggest market for the bulk of coins is the auction houses. Others might have other ways, share them.

Coinsponge

<< <i>I will simply ask one question....

Do any of the contributors actually feel the value of a 1909 VDB Matte Proof LIncoln in PR63 is $2750? In that, if they entered the market today with that much cash, could they actually purchase such a coin at such a price?

and that is my one question....to which I ask you Dentuck, quite respectfully. >>




To be fair you would have to give him a whole year. I am guessing a tough assignment anyway.

Coinsponge

<< <i>I would personally love to see the Redbook become the text most relied upon. That means content over form. The book looks great inside and out but one must ask are they putting their money where their content is. If a book of their caliber, and I believe it is simply of the highest caliber of any price/guide book out there, where to make REAL sure of all their prices then wouldn't that make perfect sense and never rely on their looks or following to cover their back. I am content driven period. I also woul dlike to see them not perpetuate an innaccurately deemed rare coin just because it has been deemed so in the past whether it be by them or some other source. Again I am jsut concerned with accuracy and not fallacy. I would love a REAL Redbook that could be relied upon and I am not talking about being 1005 up to date with their numbers since there is a lag time to their printing, inaccuracies there is totally understandable. Again I love the book, I buy the book, but am I buying it year to year out of some crazy love of loyalty, nostalgia, history, or having the prices under one well put together book? any fact in the book shoudl be able to be backed up factually and if an overdate isn't a REAL overdate any longer due to the fact that it has been proven otherwise then it should be removed from the publication and it shouldn't remain for years t come, a lot of collectors are indeed relying on what is written on these fine pages if you know what I mean?

I repeat, I am a customer, a long time reader, a collector of them and a fan, I just would like to see the same care that is obviously put into the form be put into the content which r
REALLY is the most important aspect of the publication.........am I wrong? >>





Better is never wrong.

RWB

Some of the folks on the list are contributors. They are mentioned in the front of the Guide Book. However, many provide input only within specific knowledge areas. For example, I have provided research and historical information, but would never consider doing pricing.

nycounsel

“Where do the coin prices come from?”

ElKevvo

Great post....thanks for the info!

K

RWB

The man in charge seems to be open to ideas and suggestions. Knowing the folks running the business, I expect Dentuck would appreciate a note including a list of problem areas and suggested corrections.

Dentuck

Anyone interested in being a Red Book pricing contributor, please PM me with your contact information, and on Monday I'll send you our Potential Red Book Contributor Questionnaire.

Sorry for the quick reply for now... I'll be back online and will respond in more depth later!

GritsMan

I have found the Red Book useful for many things--including giving me an idea for one of my novels. On the whole, though, the more I learn, the more disappointed I am with it. The prices seem to bear little relation to the real world--instead, they seem to reflect what people HOPE their collections are worth. For a book that must bring in a small fortune in cash to the publishing house, there seems to be a severe shortage of investment in original research. As for the sections on Moderns, they are just shameful. I bought my last copy in 2006. I won't buy another until I hear from several sources that the book reflects the state of the art in collecting--as it should. A study of these boards would be a great start for the publisher to learn what topics are important to potential readers and buyers of this book.

Teva

<< <i>I will simply ask one question....

Do any of the contributors actually feel the value of a 1909 VDB Matte Proof LIncoln in PR63 is $2750? In that, if they entered the market today with that much cash, could they actually purchase such a coin at such a price?

and that is my one question....to which I ask you Dentuck, quite respectfully. >>


What would you think you would want to pay for a raw brown
low end PR63 1909VDB that requires a leap of faith?
Red Book price $2750
PCGS list price graded $8500.

BillJones

I have one example of every Red Book from the first edition, but my collection is of "reader's quality." The bindings are strong, but the covers on some are not bright, and one of the early ones has some marks. Red Books are great for getting prices from "the good old days," and they also provide you with some numismatic history. For example when did the 1955 doubled die cent first get listed? I think that it was the 13th edition. How high did the 1960 small date cent get in Proof? As high as $50 in the mid 1960s.

MikeInFL

<< <i>140 or so Dealers contributing price info, isn't that like having Bernie madoff as my financial counselor. How about 70 or so verified collectors and 70 or so dealers and 70 or so experts in the field. Why a publication want so many dealers who also pay to advertise in the publication and who also depend on price info to benefit themselves. Is it just me or is their something way off here, just asking the obvious. >>



I think that's a bit harsh. However, I would offer this analogy...

Does the Wall Street Journal ask stock brokers what a stock is worth, or does it use actual trading data?

DMWJR

The Red Book is a "Guide," hence the official name of the book.

Dennis can correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think it is intended to be a hard valuation of specific grades and quality within a grade. It can show you things like regular issues by the US Mints, official mintage figures, relative value, design changes, picture ids, etc. It is a place to start, and that's the extent of it. To do more in an annual publication would be impossible. Use it for its intended purpose, and don't complain about what you get for only $25 a year.

Thanks Dennis for your participation on the board, and keep cranking out the Guides so new collectors can have a great place to start in the hobby without being overwhelmed by the minutiae that occupies the minds of advanced collectors.

Coinsponge

Since the great eye of the publisher is focused here now, I would like to suggest that they recognize the fact the bullion coins are becoming a more prevalent numismatic collectible and try to keep current on mintages and possibly show grade valuations, especially high end like 68-70, not just Unc and Proof. For me, that would motivate me to buy the book more frequently. The illustrations and technical data are great but I would like a printed record of how the values fluctuate through the years. That is my 2 cent piece.

Steve

<< <i>

<< <i>I will simply ask one question....

Do any of the contributors actually feel the value of a 1909 VDB Matte Proof LIncoln in PR63 is $2750? In that, if they entered the market today with that much cash, could they actually purchase such a coin at such a price?

and that is my one question....to which I ask you Dentuck, quite respectfully. >>


What would you think you would want to pay for a raw brown
low end PR63 1909VDB that requires a leap of faith?
Red Book price $2750
PCGS list price graded $8500.
>>




The PCGS price is based on a PCGS CERTIFIED coin. The Red Book price is (in my opinion) based on a RAW coin that "looks like" a proof 63 Matte Proof Lincoln. Fact is, no knowledgeable collector would pay PCGS certified prices for a Raw coin like the 1909VDB MPL which is very scarce in the marketplace. Steve

Longacre

Great info. I need to take a closer read through it when I have a little more time. As an aside, I just got back from my town's annual book sale. They had a ton of Redbooks, priced at $1-2 each. The earliest one was from 1963. I am also happy to report that I donated two cases of auction catalogs (recent ones), which they priced at a dollar each (an insult for ex-libris Longacre volumes, but I digress). They were there when the sale opened, and then when I checked back a half hour later, someone bought all of them.

PerryHall

<< <i>The PCGS price is based on a PCGS CERTIFIED coin. The Red Book price is (in my opinion) based on a RAW coin that "looks like" a proof 63 Matte Proof Lincoln. Fact is, no knowledgeable collector would pay PCGS certified prices for a Raw coin like the 1909VDB MPL which is very scarce in the marketplace. Steve >>



In both cases, the prices are based on properly graded coins.

Coinsponge

Fact is, no knowledgeable collector would pay PCGS certified prices for a Raw coin like the 1909VDB MPL which is very scarce in the marketplace. Steve >>



Seems to me if you had a great deal of experience in grading them you might although I can see why someone might use that as an excuse to pay less.

Sonorandesertrat

When I was just getting started in the hobby, in the late 1960's, Redbook prices mattered. That is not the case today, regardless of the numerical entries for
various coins. There are far more nuances associated with coin pricing today than back then, and the difference between low end and high end for a given grade
can be multiples of the low end value today. How should pricing for various types of toning be factored in, say for toned Morgans or Lincolns? There is no real agreement and no Redbook entries.

There isn't much point in getting annoyed about Redbook pricing if that information is not widely used in the marketplace.

Coinsponge

<< <i>When I was just getting started in the hobby, in the late 1960's, Redbook prices mattered. That is not the case today, regardless of the numerical entries for
various coins. There are far more nuances associated with coin pricing today than back then, and the difference between low end and high end for a given grade
can be multiples of the low end value today. How should pricing for various types of toning be factored in, say for toned Morgans or Lincolns? There is no real agreement and no Redbook entries.

There isn't much point in getting annoyed about Redbook pricing if that information is not widely used in the marketplace. >>





I don't think anyone expects them to be spot on or reflect all of the minutia in valuing a coin. That would be impossible for an annual guide. I think there may be a desire for a better effort to keep up with expanding interests in the hobby and more responsive to corrections or updates when necessary. These are fans of the book who just want it to be better.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>Why a publication want so many dealers who also pay to advertise in the publication and who also depend on price info to benefit themselves. >>

Wouldn't collectors also depend on price info to benefit themselves? There would be a tremendous benefit to any buyer who was able to hold down the perceived value of coins he was actively acquiring, wouldn't there?