Another Robbery Re: Gene Wheeler
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WTCG
Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭
Here's a release regarding another robbery involving a coin dealer returning from a show. It involves Gene Wheeler of Texas.
On Sunday June 13, 2010 Texas Coin Dealer Gene Wheeler and his wife were robbed in Witchita Falls, Texas after attending the Grapevine, Texas Coin Show. Three suspects were involved in the robbery and described as being of Asian background. One suspect assaulted Ms. Wheeler breaking five ribs and two fingers. The suspects smashed the back window of the Wheeler's vehicle and removed a case containing $20,000 in currency and checks. The suspects escaped in a black Nissan Maxima.
Below is a partial listing of stolen notes;
100pk 2001 Series $1 -FRN L01468201*-300*,100pk 2003 Series $1-FRN G01239301*-400*, 100pk 2001 Series $1-FRN L00495701 *800*, 100pk 2003 Series $1-FRN G02905101 *200*, 100Pk 1977 Series $1 FRN H67115301A-400A, 100PK 1988 A Series $1 FRN K22062101C-200G, 100pk 1999FW Series $1 FRN K276862013- 3001B, 100 pk 1999 series(FW) $1 FRN K 57491501G -600G, 100pk 1995 Series (FW) $1 FRN I04755601*-700*, 100pk 2001 Series $1 FRN Ao4673101*200*, 100pk 1995 Series $2 -FRN F88366601K-700A, 100pk 1995 Series $2 FRN F45491001B - 100B, 2003 Series (FW) $2 FRN I 02895301A -400A, 7-100pk 2003 series (W) $2 FRN I88990101A-800A, 100pk 1999 Series $5 FRN BJ00580401*-500*, 100pk 1999 Series $5 FRN BB02354001 A-5001A, 100pk 2003 series $2 FRN I91034901-5001A, 100pk 2003 Series $1 FRN E 25635801J - 900I.
1929 $10 Steele, Missouri, Charter #12452 Ser#B00141A and 1929 $5 Mercedes, Texas, Charter #11 879 Ser#C000405A.
Anyone having any information on this offense contact:
Det. Montana
940-761-7766
or
Doug Davis
817-723-7231
On Sunday June 13, 2010 Texas Coin Dealer Gene Wheeler and his wife were robbed in Witchita Falls, Texas after attending the Grapevine, Texas Coin Show. Three suspects were involved in the robbery and described as being of Asian background. One suspect assaulted Ms. Wheeler breaking five ribs and two fingers. The suspects smashed the back window of the Wheeler's vehicle and removed a case containing $20,000 in currency and checks. The suspects escaped in a black Nissan Maxima.
Below is a partial listing of stolen notes;
100pk 2001 Series $1 -FRN L01468201*-300*,100pk 2003 Series $1-FRN G01239301*-400*, 100pk 2001 Series $1-FRN L00495701 *800*, 100pk 2003 Series $1-FRN G02905101 *200*, 100Pk 1977 Series $1 FRN H67115301A-400A, 100PK 1988 A Series $1 FRN K22062101C-200G, 100pk 1999FW Series $1 FRN K276862013- 3001B, 100 pk 1999 series(FW) $1 FRN K 57491501G -600G, 100pk 1995 Series (FW) $1 FRN I04755601*-700*, 100pk 2001 Series $1 FRN Ao4673101*200*, 100pk 1995 Series $2 -FRN F88366601K-700A, 100pk 1995 Series $2 FRN F45491001B - 100B, 2003 Series (FW) $2 FRN I 02895301A -400A, 7-100pk 2003 series (W) $2 FRN I88990101A-800A, 100pk 1999 Series $5 FRN BJ00580401*-500*, 100pk 1999 Series $5 FRN BB02354001 A-5001A, 100pk 2003 series $2 FRN I91034901-5001A, 100pk 2003 Series $1 FRN E 25635801J - 900I.
1929 $10 Steele, Missouri, Charter #12452 Ser#B00141A and 1929 $5 Mercedes, Texas, Charter #11 879 Ser#C000405A.
Anyone having any information on this offense contact:
Det. Montana
940-761-7766
or
Doug Davis
817-723-7231
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Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
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Comments
<< <i>Robbery AND assault... nasty business. Pays to be trained and carry a weapon. Training includes alertness and situational assessment. Very sorry to hear of their misfortune and certainly hope they catch the dirtbags that did it. Cheers, RickO >>
Yup, starting to look like a couple of those dirtbags need to have a .44 caliber frontal lobotomy in order to slow this robbery business down.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Per this news report:
The man told officers he and his wife were returning home from a coin show in Grapevine and stopped at the restaurant in Wichita Falls, Snyder said. According to the police report, they are coin dealers.
The two got out of their vehicle and went inside the Taco Bell. When they got ready to leave, the woman walked out of the building first. The man said when he walked out, he saw another man holding his wife by the neck. The suspect threw her to the ground and began to walk toward her husband.
As that happened, two other males broke the passenger window of the couple’s vehicle and started removing things.
“They got into a black four-door car and fled the scene,” Snyder said. According to the report, the vehicle the three males drove away in was possibly a Nissan Maxima. All three were wearing baseball caps, sunglasses and gloves.
“It’s possible these suspects may have followed these people from Grapevine,” Snyder said.
An ambulance took the woman to the hospital for treatment of a possible rib injury, police said.
The report listed a loss of more than $44,000. It showed $20,500 of that was currency, and checks accounted for the rest.
This seems to be happening more and more frequently.
Edit: By the way, Wichita Falls (where the robbery occurred) is roughly 2 hours from Grapevine (where the show was held). If these guys followed them from the show, that shows determination and planning. Not a good sign.
<< <i>
<< <i>Robbery AND assault... nasty business. Pays to be trained and carry a weapon. Training includes alertness and situational assessment. Very sorry to hear of their misfortune and certainly hope they catch the dirtbags that did it. Cheers, RickO >>
Yup, starting to look like a couple of those dirtbags need to have a .44 caliber frontal lobotomy in order to slow this robbery business down. >>
Getting a concealed-carry permit is on my list of things to do this year, specifically so I can carry my gun when I attend Texas shows.
<< <i>Seeing how he was a Texan and the show was in Texas, I am rather surprised that Mr. Wheeler wasn't armed. I hope his wife recovers well. >>
Alot of Dealers are not spring chickens and the situaction may have been such that shooting a gun may have had undesired effects. ( bystanders, his wife, afraid he was outgunned etc.)
Crimes like this can happen so fast that you do not have time to whip it out.
I see the Wheelers at a lot of shows and i feel really bad for them. I hope they catch these THUGS asap. You are dealing with people with no morals, conscience when you start beating on elderly women. I do believe Texas does up the penalty when people over 65 are injured during a crime. Witchita Falls i would think would be well over 100 miles from the Grapvine show.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Seems like a great idea because if these dirtbags followed the coin dealer for 2 hours, they must have also been inside, at the coin show.
A video recording could greatly aid in a visual identification.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
TACO BELL? You're kidding, right? This guy gets robbed, his wife gets beat up and he loses $20K /40K... all because they couldn't wait until after they got home & secured their stuff to have a TACO? And not only that, they needed to go INSIDE to eat it? Why? So they could enjoy the ambience and sophistication that is Taco Bell? I think I'm gonna pop a vein in my head.
How many times do we have to hear stories about dealers who feel that stopping at a restaurant with a vehicle full of coins and currency is the thing to do? Two words...DRIVE THRU. Or better yet, eat at the show. Show food certainly has to be better than Taco Bell. And before someone bring's up Gene's age...all the MORE reason why he should be wise/experienced enough to know better. I am totally sorry beyond words that this happened to him because he's a good guy and has a great rep in the community- but he should have known better, plain and simple, especially given the recent high profile thefts from other dealers that did the SAME THING! What's it going to take before people start remembering common sense? Someone getting shot in the parking lot of a Wendy's because they had to have a celebratory Frosty after selling/buying half a mil in Saints?
Edit to add: I realize it's possible these guys were willing to follow them all the way home if necessary...but by then perhaps he might have realized he was being followed. My point is, why make it easy for them?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Unlike the recent robberies at fast food joints that appeared to be people unwilling to confront their victims , these Asians might have been packing themselves.
No coin is worth having your spouse shot and/or killed .
<< <i>...........maybe all these references to gun-slinging would have led to more then broken bones for Mr. Wheeler or his wife .
Unlike the recent robberies at fast food joints that appeared to be people unwilling to confront their victims , these Asians might have been packing themselves.
No coin is worth having your spouse shot and/or killed . >>
...or 3 dead/injured armed robbers, since we're speaking hypothetically.
Part of the concealed-carry course that is required for a permit in Texas is learning how to assess the situation and determine if using your gun is the right thing to do.
There are robberies that end with the victim(s) being killed, regardless of whether they cooperate or not. Having a gun in the posession of a trained individual might prevent that from happening. I would rather be armed during a robbery than not.
shouldn't be punished with a
life imprisionment at hard labor
John
Horrible crime.My condolences to the wheelers.
Dealers PLEASE:
DONT stop for food after a show.
Have a cell phone CHARGED and handy.
Pay attention to cars around you and behind you...this type of robbey can happen while stopped at a red light
or by the side of the road after a minor fender bender.
It might be a good idea to get a gps system that tells you where police stations,fire houses,or hospitals are located as you drive along.
any of these places are a good place to go if you feel threatened.
IMO its better as a coin dealer with valuables in the car to drive to a police station after a minor accident instead of getting out of the car
and let the cops know you left the scene because you were wary due to all the recent robberies.
If you sense something wrong head right for the nearest police station.
Nothing but nice things to say about this gentleman and his wife.
Hope his wife a speedy recovery.
SNMAN
Killing the perps dead as a hammer is really bad for the thugs but the rest of the world would be better off, and I do like not having my tax dollars supporting their life in prison. If a firearm is right for you, just learn how to use it properly, take as many courses as possible, and shoot your weapon often. Constantly handling and firing your weapon makes self defense an automatic reaction that’s been rehearsed over and over. No assurance the thugs will not just shoot you, armed or not.
<< <i>Robbery AND assault... nasty business. Pays to be trained and carry a weapon. Training includes alertness and situational assessment. Very sorry to hear of their misfortune and certainly hope they catch the dirtbags that did it. Cheers, RickO >>
Rick-O is right on with this!
I'm a sworn LEO and a multi-certified LE firearms instructor.
I strongly believe that anyone who transports goods worth so much money - and given that they do is known to the public, i.e. that they are a coin dealer - should invest the time and money necessary to receive top-notch tactical training. Notice that I say not only weapons training but tactical training - mind set, tactics, threat awareness, and weapons (not to mention empty hand/knife and counter-knife/counter-gun).
There are a lot of good schools out there.
Most states (but certainly not all) that have even the most restrictive concealed weapon permit procedures will allow for a coin dealer who transports their own inventory to carry. Even states like MD will allow this.
As some on this forum know, my father - on crutches with a broken leg - shot and killed a dirt bag armed robber who had a gun to my mother's head out from behind her the instant that he moved his gun in their store in Balto. He refused to be a victim. If you're a dealer who transports your inventory so should you.
My heart truly goes out to the Wheelers. Hopefully others will learn form this horrible experience.
Ron
100 plus miles from a show in a plain regular car you would assume to be fairly safe in stopping? I would You can not walk and drive around with your pistol locked coocked ( forbidden word) and in a shooting stance. Everytime the light turns red are you suppose to whip the pistol out and stand out side the car ready to fire?
When i am in my powerstroke truck i usually have more than 20k in tools and supplies with me for the duplexs, i can not stop anywhere?
The first of each month when i collect a lot of rent in cash i need to hire snipers to surround myself?
When i decide to drive my corvette around i am advertising i am rich and rob me?
When my wife and i go out to dinner she needs to leave all her jewelry at home (scratch that, locked up at the bank in the SDB?)
Just because i have a 5 car garage with multiple ATV's, tools, vintage cars i need to stay up and make patols at night ready to shoot?
We live in a society that tolerates crooks, where a lot of folks do not want to get involved with others issues. While i fully agree you should be aware of your surroundings and not advertise money, you got to be able to live and enjoy life and not live in a constant fear.
20,000 to 40,000 is not a lot of money to me, to others it may be 2 full years of work at a job they hate. ( i do not want to lose 20k or 40k btw, but i will survive, i probably lost over 500k due to prop values and 401's over the last 2 years, others more and others less but it is just a number on paper, i can still afford to keep the lights on)
I just hope the crooks are caught and Mrs Wheeler makes a full and speedy recovery. Hopefully some place of business has a video camera or some other info to help catch the crooks.
In the big picture of things if 3 males decide to rob you at taco bell or in your house and have no fear you will be facing bad odds of coming out on top reguardless of who you are and how ready you are!!
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
"... I would rather be armed during a robbery than not...."
///////////////////////////////////////////
Ditto.
As noted, training and frequent practice are critical.
<< <i>"... I would rather be armed during a robbery than not...."
///////////////////////////////////////////
Ditto.
As noted, training and frequent practice are critical. >>
ME TOO!! But my Dad who grew up on a farm, fought in some wars and can handle a gun better than most, i would perfer he not get into a situation like that and would probably be better off if he was not armed at 82 years of age. You are dealing with people with no conscience and morals that KNOW BEFORE YOU DO that they are going to rob you.
If i were to make a guess of all the gun happy people that have replied would have not faired much better than Mrs. Wheeler reguardless of have nimble and brave you think you are. I am all for guns and have quite a few myself, and most likely would try to shoot it out to protect my wife and family under certain situations, probably not at a Taco Bell though.
25 years ago when i lived in the city i took off after some crooks that broke into my shed during the night, i came out gun drawn and proceeded to chase them down a dark alley barefooted until reality hit me and i hauled a$$ back to the house. I had to get one foot sewn up and my feet were sore for weeks.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Get a pistol with at least a 15 round clip and don't do a thing until u practice hitting the black consistently. Then defend yourself by unloading on the perp (s)... Nook em to they glow... Forgive me, my blood pressure goes up whenever I read one of these incidents!
<< <i>Dear God, I feel so bad for them. This is why I'm afraid if they don't hit the empty car at a restaurant, they'd follow you all the way home - then what would they do? I wish the absolute best for those folks, that she heals and all their items are recovered, and the perps are caught and put where they belong. >>
That just about sums up my feelings, too. My sincere sympathies go out to these victims. Practically-speaking, these crimes could get worse, much worse. Don't know what else one can really say, here...
<< <i>You guys are rough on people stopping to eat. Even Brinks security has been robbed, police cars stolen, etc. If i am going to be robbed/beaten i would just assume it not happen in my house.
100 plus miles from a show in a plain regular car you would assume to be fairly safe in stopping? I would You can not walk and drive around with your pistol locked coocked ( forbidden word) and in a shooting stance. Everytime the light turns red are you suppose to whip the pistol out and stand out side the car ready to fire?
When i am in my powerstroke truck i usually have more than 20k in tools and supplies with me for the duplexs, i can not stop anywhere?
The first of each month when i collect a lot of rent in cash i need to hire snipers to surround myself?
When i decide to drive my corvette around i am advertising i am rich and rob me?
When my wife and i go out to dinner she needs to leave all her jewelry at home (scratch that, locked up at the bank in the SDB?)
Just because i have a 5 car garage with multiple ATV's, tools, vintage cars i need to stay up and make patols at night ready to shoot?
We live in a society that tolerates crooks, where a lot of folks do not want to get involved with others issues. While i fully agree you should be aware of your surroundings and not advertise money, you got to be able to live and enjoy life and not live in a constant fear.
20,000 to 40,000 is not a lot of money to me, to others it may be 2 full years of work at a job they hate. ( i do not want to lose 20k or 40k btw, but i will survive, i probably lost over 500k due to prop values and 401's over the last 2 years, others more and others less but it is just a number on paper, i can still afford to keep the lights on)
I just hope the crooks are caught and Mrs Wheeler makes a full and speedy recovery. Hopefully some place of business has a video camera or some other info to help catch the crooks.
In the big picture of things if 3 males decide to rob you at taco bell or in your house and have no fear you will be facing bad odds of coming out on top reguardless of who you are and how ready you are!! >>
Sigh. Where do I start.
First, having 20K in tools in your pickup isn't anywhere near the same as having packs of paper money and coins in your vehicle after having left a coin show. Not even close to a good analogy. Someone might steal your tools, sure, but I'll bet you Corvette vs. Corvette that there are way fewer organized rings of Craftsman or even Snap On tool thieves out there than there are of people who want cash and coins.
Face it...we deal in the most liquid stuff there is....MONEY and COINS. You don't have to live your life in fear but you need to have common sense, and it amazes me that people want to argue against it. Virtually the only other businesses that deal in the type of commodities we deal in, concentrated in one location, in the dollar amounts equivalent to those traded at a major coin show ... are banks. Yet unlike banks, with a coin show the commodity is carried home in mostly unsecure private vehicles by mostly unarmed people who have little knowledge of basic security practices, and seemingly (and amazingly) don't care to learn. Don't get me wrong...I'm not a paranoid Rambo type who sleeps with one eye open and a Glock under the pillow (it's in the nightstand :wink; ), but seriously...when you deal in the type of stuff we deal in you need to have a greater sense of security. Plain and simple. Yes, it can still happen regardless of your habits and preparation, but like I said before...why make it easy for them? Doing some fairly simple things can make you a lesser target at least.
I posted THIS THREAD after Julian's incident with the intent of encouraging discussion and generating more helpful suggestions... it was met with ridicule via PM, and laughed off by others, but mostly ignored with very few responses-maybe 8 or 9 not counting my posts. So maybe people just like rolling the dice. I prefer not to.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>I know this is going to make me come off as sounding unsympathetic and I'll likely get flamed... but...having read the news story I feel the need to vent a bit.
TACO BELL? You're kidding, right? This guy gets robbed, his wife gets beat up and he loses $20K /40K... all because they couldn't wait until after they got home & secured their stuff to have a TACO? And not only that, they needed to go INSIDE to eat it? Why? So they could enjoy the ambience and sophistication that is Taco Bell? I think I'm gonna pop a vein in my head.
How many times do we have to hear stories about dealers who feel that stopping at a restaurant with a vehicle full of coins and currency is the thing to do? Two words...DRIVE THRU. Or better yet, eat at the show. Show food certainly has to be better than Taco Bell. And before someone bring's up Gene's age...all the MORE reason why he should be wise/experienced enough to know better. I am totally sorry beyond words that this happened to him because he's a good guy and has a great rep in the community- but he should have known better, plain and simple, especially given the recent high profile thefts from other dealers that did the SAME THING! What's it going to take before people start remembering common sense? Someone getting shot in the parking lot of a Wendy's because they had to have a celebratory Frosty after selling/buying half a mil in Saints?
Edit to add: I realize it's possible these guys were willing to follow them all the way home if necessary...but by then perhaps he might have realized he was being followed. My point is, why make it easy for them? >>
I believe this man has a valid point, folks. This isn't just a theft. It's a crime against the person. That's what robbery is. Are we going to have to wait until it's an armed robbery and one of us gets more seriously beat-up or even murdered before it dawns on us that part of this "gate" at these shows is violent criminals looking for opportunities, calling for the exercise of extraordinary caution on our parts, from beginning to end? I sincerely hope not.
<< <i>I know this is going to make me come off as sounding unsympathetic and I'll likely get flamed... but...having read the news story I feel the need to vent a bit.
TACO BELL? You're kidding, right? This guy gets robbed, his wife gets beat up and he loses $20K /40K... all because they couldn't wait until after they got home & secured their stuff to have a TACO? And not only that, they needed to go INSIDE to eat it? Why? So they could enjoy the ambience and sophistication that is Taco Bell? I think I'm gonna pop a vein in my head.
How many times do we have to hear stories about dealers who feel that stopping at a restaurant with a vehicle full of coins and currency is the thing to do? Two words...DRIVE THRU. Or better yet, eat at the show. Show food certainly has to be better than Taco Bell. And before someone bring's up Gene's age...all the MORE reason why he should be wise/experienced enough to know better. I am totally sorry beyond words that this happened to him because he's a good guy and has a great rep in the community- but he should have known better, plain and simple, especially given the recent high profile thefts from other dealers that did the SAME THING! What's it going to take before people start remembering common sense? Someone getting shot in the parking lot of a Wendy's because they had to have a celebratory Frosty after selling/buying half a mil in Saints?
Edit to add: I realize it's possible these guys were willing to follow them all the way home if necessary...but by then perhaps he might have realized he was being followed. My point is, why make it easy for them? >>
No flaming here but have you considered that if these folks were over 55, two hours on the road can (and usually does for me at least) require a "potty" break!
The entire point being, folks shouldn't have to worry about this.
On the other hand, $44,000 is quite a bit to cart around yet, for some dealers, it's a pittance.
I really feel for both of these folks and only wish that it didn't happen or that something could have been done to avoid it. However, neither I nor Ricko nor a hundred other forum members weren't there.
I hope the recovery goes well for the injured as something along these lines is VERY traumatic and has lasting effects!
The name is LEE!
And I agree... people shouldn't need to worry about things like this, but in the real world they unfortunately have to. Especially in this business. And given the economy and jobs situation you might see an increase in such activity. Why not take steps now to educate and protect oneself to minimize risk?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Telephoto- I really do not disagree with anything you say, i am just saying that if 3 people pick you out at a show to rob you after it is over, at some point along the way they will probably succede unless they are real stupid and there is not a lot you can do.
As i get older i have made more changes to try to lessen the chances of my family and i of becoming vitims of crime, but not to the point of paranoia.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
How many times do we have to hear stories about dealers who feel that stopping at a restaurant with a vehicle full of coins and currency is the thing to do? Two words...DRIVE THRU. Or better yet, eat at the show.
I was thinking about that and I thought the the drive-through may be even worse. While in line you are stuck and they could hit you while in that vulnerable position. I think the best thing is to be observant of anyone following you and make 2 or 3 unusual turns to see if a car follows before you stop for anything. If one is following then call the cops.
<< <i>100 plus miles from a show in a plain regular car you would assume to be fairly safe in stopping? I would >>
Yes and here in lies the rub. If you’re assuming, assume the minute you come out of the show as a dealer your marked every time! As Ron stated train for the unforeseen. Training and practice with qualified instructors will give you the advantage over the thugs that think all they need to do is brandish a firearm and they are in control. When one of these thugs pulls a weapon on me they better have more training, and a clear, calm mindset if they expect to live.
Firearm training is not for everyone. If you are going to be known to carry large sums of money, coins, or other valuables and you would rather give them away and hope to not be a victim; that is the right of every American. I do not carry all the time-but when I do I prefer dos armas.
<< <i>
<< <i>"... I would rather be armed during a robbery than not...."
///////////////////////////////////////////
Ditto.
As noted, training and frequent practice are critical. >>
ME TOO!! But my Dad who grew up on a farm, fought in some wars and can handle a gun better than most, i would perfer he not get into a situation like that and would probably be better off if he was not armed at 82 years of age. You are dealing with people with no conscience and morals that KNOW BEFORE YOU DO that they are going to rob you.
If i were to make a guess of all the gun happy people that have replied would have not faired much better than Mrs. Wheeler reguardless of have nimble and brave you think you are. I am all for guns and have quite a few myself, and most likely would try to shoot it out to protect my wife and family under certain situations, probably not at a Taco Bell though.
25 years ago when i lived in the city i took off after some crooks that broke into my shed during the night, i came out gun drawn and proceeded to chase them down a dark alley barefooted until reality hit me and i hauled a$$ back to the house. I had to get one foot sewn up and my feet were sore for weeks. >>
Being a coin board, this is off topic, but not for this thread....
"If i were to make a guess of all the gun happy people that have replied would have not faired much better than Mrs. Wheeler reguardless of have nimble and brave you think you are. I am all for guns and have quite a few myself, and most likely would try to shoot it out to protect my wife and family under certain situations, probably not at a Taco Bell though.
25 years ago when i lived in the city i took off after some crooks that broke into my shed during the night, i came out gun drawn and proceeded to chase them down a dark alley barefooted until reality hit me and i hauled a$$ back to the house. I had to get one foot sewn up and my feet were sore for weeks. "
I don't know which "gun happy" people your 're talking about, but as a Sheriff's Deputy the gun comes in handy - I'm sure that most of my brothers and sisters in law enforcement would agree.
I don't know if you caught the story about my Dad, but he fared pretty well, as have countless other armed citizens and LEOs.
Clearly you didn't read mine or Rick-Os posts before ranting about gun happy people. A large part of defensive training is situational awareness and conflict avoidance. Tactically trained and aware persons are much more likely to recognize pre-attack indicators, to realize that they're being targeted/followed, to avoid tactically disadvantageous situations, etc. and to avoid an attack. Nothing's 100% to be sure, but most people are totally oblivious to such things and pay the price.
Your comments speak volumes to the degree of your own lack of defensive firearms and judicious use of lethal force training.
If yours or someone else's life is in immediate and unavoidable danger and your 're armed and trained you'll duke it our wherever you are in such a manner as to try to avoid injuries to innocents. Countless holdups have been ended by LEOs and armed citizens in 7-11s and Taco Bell type places - i.e., places where hold-ups commonly occur.
Conversely, anyone with any quality defensive firearms training would NEVER go chasing after crooks fleeing from a property crime with a deadly weapon. This is both foolish and illegal. There is no lethal threat, you have no idea who they are or if they're armed and you're putting yours and others' lives in danger over some property.
Given your totally obvious absolutely complete lack of any defensive firearms or tactical training whatsoever I believe that you're particularly unqualified to pass judgement on the views of law enforcement professionals or well-trained armed civilians as it related to their suggestions regarding defensive tactics and firearms combatives. "....better to be thought a ..... than to open your mouth and remove all doubt....."
Like Rick-O, I was trying to offer some constructive suggestions for the avoidance of such tragedies in the future.
G-d bless Ms. Wheeler and let us pray for her speedy recovery.
Lets get back to coins....
There is the typical cop mentaility
Raufus- Just sitting behind a computer and pounding your chest and saying would have, could have is easy when you are not there. Law enforcement people are better trained in firearms and go thru regular training to use them that the average gun permit carrier does not. A little more time spent learning how to correctly fill out a ticket or investgating a crime that does not get tossed out would be helpful also, or trying to catch these thugs instead of just trying to bring in revenue by writing the easy tickets.
I AM glad all turned out well in your fathers case.
I did say 25 YEARS ago i did someting stupid as a lot of people would say they have done in the past.
I know a lot of people that carry in Texas, with and without a permit. If memory serves me and i am sure you will know off the top of your head, if you want to carry in Texas you have to attend a 1 day class for around 100 dollars and during that time you get finger printed, fill out forms and go over BASICS and then shoot 50 times your gun/ thier gun from distances of 3 to 15 yards and then wait 60 days for the permit to arrive in mail. The classes are run a little better than the traffic ticket schools. I am sure there are studies that show that once the person recies the permit most do not practice or do anything more until time to re-certify
The details surrounding this are still a little sketchy. It may not have even been a free standing Taco Bell. A lot of fast food is now part of gas stations etc.
Again i feel bad for the Wheelers i am sure he did not feel they were in danger at the time he decided to stop
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Straight home without any stops.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
<< <i>I agree with Mark. You have to live your life. I support gun ownership but having a gun here probably would not help. 3 determined thugs will probably get what they want. >>
Actually thugs are generally just the opposite. They want soft targets. Even if you don't have a gun, try to act like you won't be easy to hit and you will likely never get hit. --Jerry
<< <i>Given your totally obvious absolutely complete lack of any defensive firearms or tactical training whatsoever I believe that you're particularly unqualified to pass judgement on the views of law enforcement professionals or well-trained armed civilians as it related to their suggestions regarding defensive tactics and firearms combatives. "....better to be thought a ..... than to open your mouth and remove all doubt....."
There is the typical cop mentaility
Raufus- Just sitting behind a computer and pounding your chest and saying would have, could have is easy when you are not there. Law enforcement people are better trained in firearms and go thru regular training to use them that the average gun permit carrier does not. A little more time spent learning how to correctly fill out a ticket or investgating a crime that does not get tossed out would be helpful also, or trying to catch these thugs instead of just trying to bring in revenue by writing the easy tickets.
I AM glad all turned out well in your fathers case.
I did say 25 YEARS ago i did someting stupid as a lot of people would say they have done in the past.
I know a lot of people that carry in Texas, with and without a permit. If memory serves me and i am sure you will know off the top of your head, if you want to carry in Texas you have to attend a 1 day class for around 100 dollars and during that time you get finger printed, fill out forms and go over BASICS and then shoot 50 times your gun/ thier gun from distances of 3 to 15 yards and then wait 60 days for the permit to arrive in mail. The classes are run a little better than the traffic ticket schools. I am sure there are studies that show that once the person recies the permit most do not practice or do anything more until time to re-certify
The details surrounding this are still a little sketchy. It may not have even been a free standing Taco Bell. A lot of fast food is now part of gas stations etc.
Again i feel bad for the Wheelers i am sure he did not feel they were in danger at the time he decided to stop >>
These are precisely the types of non-numismatic threads that folks don't log onto PCGS to read. (Although, I would submit that dealer security is actually a very pertinent topic for the forums.)
Thanks for the kind words about my father - he was very well trained and the situation was resolved accordingly.
In your eyes all Police (I'm a Deputy Sheriff - no difference nor understanding in your eyes of that difference - to be expected) are out there to do is write tickets and hassle generally law-abiding citizens. Yes, doing just that is exactly why I became an LEO. Given the opportunity to stop an overwhelmed Mother of three for a 36 in a 25 over responding to an armed robbery or active shooter - of course I'd go for the Mom, just as any good Wendy's eating cop would do....
I've always been impressed how during an LEO funeral procession and, for a brief time after 9-11, folks seem to get what we do - perhaps not folks like you, but folks in general. Lt. Col. David Grossman touches on this extremely well in his excellent Wolf/Sheep/Sheep Dog lecture.
All I do is sit and pound my chest..... It's not as if in 9 years on the job I've ever had an encounter with gang members, domestics, violent felons and the like...just my chest beating speculation and ticket writing (don't forget my favorite - J walking!!).
(Why I waste time responding to ignorant posts such as yours I don't know - they're just so annoying I guess.)
In any case, as an active member of the National Tactical Officer's Assn., The Intl. Assn. of LE Firearms Instructors, a former Adjunct Instructor at a major LE firearms school, a holder of multiple LE Instructor Certs. in Patrol Rifle, Handgun, Tactical Handgun, Tactical Shooting, Shotgun and Sub-machine gun/select fire and being a many-times graduate of many of the top shooting and counter-terrorism schools in the US, I've been very much involved in LE as well as, to a lesser extent, civilian firearms training for many years - not so much in traffic enforcement.
Like Rick-O, I was simply tying to offer some advice to prevent these sorts of tragedies in the future. Of course, there is always one like you out there and I'd LOVE to write you a ticket!!
Nonetheless, I know of some dealers who are extremely security conscious, well armed and well trained and they've not had problems to date.
For those who are not interested in such training, are not in good enough physical condition to do it, etc. it may well be wise to hire a security company or to ship their inventory if possible. Like jewelers and others whom the public knows carries compact, high-value goods, coin dealers are very real targets for criminals as we've read about all too many times.
Perhaps some of the very security oriented dealers (if you're reading this) could arrange for some seminars for other dealers on the topic of security. I'll in fact mention this to some that I know.
I am amazed and saddened at how casual some dealers are about their own as well as their family and staff's personal security. No matter how much they think to the contrary, they are in a high-risk business. A recognition of this as well as the taking of appropriate preventative measures will go a long way towards preventing the robberies, assaults and injuries that we all so dread hearing about.
As to civilian CCW, I am a very strong proponent civilian CCW as well as a very strong proponent of REQUIRING a substantial amount of training for such CCW holders to both get and maintain their CCW permit.
Signing off of this thread now as I'm sure that my bantering with you is getting old for everyone - including for me.
<< <i>With open carry of a pistol at the show, as a preventative measure, the probability of the robbery would have been greatly reduced. Unfortunately, not all states allow open carry of firearms. >>
Texas is a right to carry state, so the perpetrators may have also been armed.
In this situation of being outnumbered it could resulted in more then just broken bones.
Doug Davis, who provides an invaluable service by running numismaticcrimes.org, and who wrote the e-mail posted by the OP, was present and providing security at the show, as is normal for shows in North Texas (and I've seen him elsewhere on occasion). The show proper was secure.
I do not know Gene Wheeler other than by sight and from a few occasional words at a show, so I have no idea whether he would have been armed or not when the robbery occurred. I know there are other dealers at that show who are commonly armed, and I suspect quite a number of them are. However, I personally knew two dealers who were killed while doing business, and one of them (RIP Ron Miller) was well-armed and in his shop when it happened. Having a gun in your possession is fine, especially if you're dealing in valuables for a living, and I'm all for heavy training for those who wish to carry. However, no amount of merchandise is worth getting killed over, and mistakes are, literally, deadly.
There was food at the show, although I wasn't there on the last day and have no idea whether they were open until the end. If the people providing the food are anything like the dealers, I doubt it. If they weren't present, it would have been impossible to follow the suggestion in the thread of eating before you leave; in addition, many shows do not have a food provider. Sometimes, you just gotta stop.
I think, more than anything else, this points out the value of being aware of your surroundings.
Stewart Huckaby
mailto:stewarth@HA.com
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