Any recourse for a burnt novice?
BurntNovice
Posts: 5
I'll try do do this posting abiding the rules. I'm very new to coins but last year (September 09) I decided to purchase some gold coins and made the mistake of listening to a radio show advert and calling this certain telemarketer company. Well, in short, I was fleeced and scammed royally. Three main problems - and I am asking you folks for help - do I have any recourse or do U just stay ripped off and learn my lesson the hard way? The 3 problems are 1. I asked for the St Gaudens to be MS65's only, and I received 1 at MS62. I stated I didnt want any coins under MS62 and I received a $5 Liberty MS61. 2. I took the coins to a couple local ANA Directory dealers and they said that 2 coins were 'overgraded', e.g. one of the St Gaudens MS65 has a bunch of black spots on the back, and at mint grade 65, shouldn't. 3. Lastly, the phone agent tole me she was quoting 'market prices' but I learnt later that there was a 15-28% mark-up OVER market prices, about $2,000 for a $11,000 purchase, and I feel duped, scammed, ripped off. To make it worse, the very expensive MS65 St Gaudens with the black splotches was purchased for over $3,000!! It's not really worth even half of that, according to the local dealers I showed the coins to. Needless to say this tlelmarketer company refuses to take the coins back for a full refund, and the 'Customer Service' Manager actually tried to scam me again - recommending the coins with the greatest mark-down to buy back, even though he clearly understands I want minimal financial losses over this disgusting situation. Has this happened to anyone else here - and what recourse do I have? ~ Burnt Novice
Devi
0
Comments
By way, welcome to the forum.
Most of these telemarketers do have mark ups. That is how they make money. If they pay spot for gold, they cannot sell it to you for spot and pay advertisers, employees, etc, and still remain in business. In fact, coin dealers will prbably not sell you gold for spot, either. You will pay a premium. And, dealers will pay back of spot when buying. That is the nature of the business.
So, if you spent $11,000, how much are your coins worth? $5,000? $8,000? True, you are out a few thousand dollars and I will be royally P-oed, too. You can chalk this up to tuition, or, before jumping in to something new, take time to do your research. Buy a coin book (redbook to start), research reputable internet sites (e.g. coinfacts, PCGS, NGC, etc.).
I do not know if you have recourse as I previously mentioned. If the purposely misled you and swindled you, then you might be able to find a lawyer to help you out. Or, if you paid by credit cazrd, take it to them and see what they can do for you.
I hope this helps. I am certain someone else will come along and chime in, too.
Who graded the coins?
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The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.
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You didn't say which company graded the coins.
I doubt you have much recourse. If you follow the usual pattern you will dump these coins at some point because they become painful reminders.
Welcome to the forum! Listen and learn. Ask before buying.
Lance.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
Welcome the to forum, lots to learn here.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Good luck
Have you checked with the BBB for any outstanidng complaints?
Have you considered speaking to an attorney?
The name is LEE!
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I doubt you will get anywhere with the BBB and would not recommend attempting to get the local police involved. An attorney would probably be expensive. You might try contacting this organization see here - if so, you will need to be specific in the details you provide.
It would be helpful to know which grading company graded the coins. For example, if it was PCGS or NGC, the MS65 Saint Gaudens $20 is worth $1800+, despite the spots you mentioned, and despite what the local dealers said.
<< <i>Under the circumstances, as described, there is probably no recourse.
I doubt you will get anywhere with the BBB and would not recommend attempting to get the local police involved. An attorney would probably be expensive. You might try contacting this organization see here - if so, you will need to be specific in the details you provide.
It would be helpful to know which grading company graded the coins. For example, if it was PCGS or NGC, the MS65 Saint Gaudens $20 is worth $1800+, despite the spots you mentioned, and despite what the local dealers said. >>
I agree with Mark. The deal was disadvantageous for the buyer but laws were not violated and there would be no recourse
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
Don't even consider being a member of this board without having a thick skin.
I have 90,000 shares of stock in a company that is now worth .009 each. Yes, that 9/10 of a cent each.
I spent a lot more than than to buy that stock. Oh, man it hurts. But life does go on and maybe, just
maybe, the company will rebound.
Now, that's not buying one thing and getting another as you apparently have done. So, I not trying to
minimize your loss just trying to emphasize it!
Most of us do more research on the new TV we're going to buy or the new car than we do on our investments.
Bullion or coins are really nothing more than having the pleasure of short term ownership and hopefully preserving
some of our wealth. Not always is the preservation of wealth a reality.
I'm sorry that this has happened to you as it has countless others (me included). In the end we hope to have
something of value to pass on to our heirs. Otherwise it matters not. Enjoy today. Don't worry about tomorrow
as not much can be done about it. Stay healthy and love as many people as you can, and one dog, too.
Stick around this forum and kick back and learn a ton about coins, gold, etc. Check out the other forums under
the navigation window. Spend time earning your dues. Then make a decision and stick with it and invest or
preserve as you know you can.
bob
,
is that fannie or freddie?
<< <i>Bob,
is that fannie or freddie? >>
Could have been, 'eh? But, no it's a real company (or was). Still in operation but
not going anywhere anytime soon!
bob
thanks for all the replies. I actually am looking for an attorney - the right kind. The coins are PCGS/NGC certified. The company won't take back a return and the credit card company does not do fraud investigations if its been more than 60 days from purchase - which it is now.
If you guys are saying this has happened before and its very common to be defrauded by telemarketers - then what about starting a class-action lawsuit? I'll need some recommendations for suitable attorneys - any ideas?
Thanks!
Post the list of the dates, grades and grading service of each coin you have and I know there are some folks here who can give you accurate real market prices.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
how did they justify sending you coins graded lower than your requests? or did you send them for grading?
<< <i>no rules broken.
how did they justify sending you coins graded lower than your requests? or did you send them for grading? >>
This would be a key. I think he got them already certified. If he asked for coins already certified a certain grade and given different graded coins then he got the wrong product and should be refunded. Grading raw coins is strictly an opinion.
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#2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
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1) Were the coins misrepresented?
2) Was payment misrepresented, such as billing for coins and not receiving goods as ordered?
If you cannot say yes, there is no fraud. You overpaid, just like overpaying on a lease for a car or overpaying for stock which was thought to be a sure thing.
If you hire an attorney, that's more good money after bad. If you sell your coins for a loss, you may write off a portion of the investment loss on your taxes.
TRUTH
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
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#1 1951 Bowman Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
<< <i>Can the Coin Posse help (I think is was called the NCA)? Are they still operating? Every few months or so they would announce how they helped get restitution for folks scammed by telemarketers. >>
Their website is "stopcoinfraud.org". Burntnovice, you should check the website out and see if anyone might be able to help.
There is always something one can do. Once you pool all of the information(I mean accurate, documented information and not just opinion) you can find a lawyer to look at the facts and determine if you have any recourse. Never give a lawyer heresay information, just recorded facts. They cannot help you with opinionated information.
Also, regardless of your outcome, I would report them to the authorities. Again, regardless of whether it is common practice for sellers to mark up inventory, it is not common practice to offer an item for a price then raise the price later. BTW, how did it cost you more, exactly. If you gave them a credit card for an $XX sale and they then billed the card $XX++ that is illegal and any credit card agency would disallow the purchase. Don't give up until someone with all the facts and ability to digest them with their legalities looks at them and shows you why there is no recourse.
Welcome to the forum and best of luck.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I agree with the earlier post that you are probably better off just letting the climbing price of gold make you whole. Knowing how these telemarketers work, you probably overpaid for everything you purchased, regardless of grade. Take your loss, learn your lesson, and put your energy into making money in the gold market, not in recovering what you have lost. If you get consumed with fighting this battle you will be in no frame of mind to profit from the rise of gold in the days ahead. Move on. There's money to be made, climb aboard.
The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.
<< <i>
<< <i>Can the Coin Posse help (I think is was called the NCA)? Are they still operating? Every few months or so they would announce how they helped get restitution for folks scammed by telemarketers. >>
Their website is "stopcoinfraud.org". Burntnovice, you should check the website out and see if anyone might be able to help. >>
I posted a link to their site earlier in the thread and suggested that that the original poster contact them.
what state are they in?
I am not sure if we heard all the story, but you need to do something within 30 days of receiving to get best results
some state attorney generals have gotten involved in the past when losses were greater - some telemarketers in the past have sold items at a price of 5-10 times actual value
many telemarketers make their money by overgrading, therefore misrepresenting the sale
you actually did not do that bad as many coins are worth 20% less than a year ago
if someone calls you up offering to sell you a blue goose for $10K, do you learn anything about blue gooses or say, sure that sounds great I have been thinking of investing in blue gooses
In any case if you lost 2K on the deal at last years prices then you might be ahead now because prices on gold are up.
If you're still 2k down today that's not good but it could have been much worse.
If nothing else learn from it, most investments are risky and the less you research before buying the more risky it is.
Cartwheel
Cartwheel's Showcase Coins
Here's what I'd do:
1. Get some digital images of the coins (any pictures for starters) and post them here.
2. Include a post with the denominations, dates, grades and TPG right away (especially if you can't post pictures now).
3. Wait for forum members to chime in with values (it don't take many MS65 Saints to hit $11K)
4. Go to BBB.org and look up the seller.
5. File a claim with the BBB if needed.
If you have several PCGS/NGC Mint State gold pieces, you have a lot of value. Let's figure out what you've got and roughly how much they're worth before proceeding much further.
Good Luck!
The coin market includes some dealers that buy coins over-the-counter for less than 50% of what they can get, wholesalers that operate on average spreads of less than 5%, and retailers that double up (or more) on most sales. With all of that going on, how can you possibly expect to determine a single "market price"?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
In the store I see it at least once a week, folks who bought generics from these telemarketing or gold firms that sell mediocre coins at best for extrememly strong prices. They come in to sell some only then realize they got burned.
IMO, its best to find a reputable (coin) dealer who can honestly evaluate whether a coin is worthy and continually buy from them.
Most of the subpar generic coins that float through the bourse tend to end up at these type telemarketing /gold firms becuase most of thier clients dont really know how to grade/determine if a gold coin is all there, they simply all of a sudden want to own gold becuase of the current market publicity /hype, and as Wei mention, dont do thier homework.
Get an accurate appraisal if you can and either hold on and hope gold goes up or sell now, take your lumps and move on. It might not be worth the effort/$$ to try to go after them.
Also consider calling the radio station where you heard the promo. They might make a call on your behalf. If not, at least give them a piece of your mind.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.
TRUTH
<< <i>Just a thought; if you think any of the coins have "turned" in the holder, consider joining the PCGS Collectors Club, then send those coins in for a review. If they've developed problems, PCGS could buy them back from you at a very fair price.
Cartwheel >>
I don't believe that you have to join to submit coins for guarantee. All that is required is that you own the coin.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Put me in the minimal-sympathy crowd.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
First- loose the icon- you missed the timing for that to be an advertisement for RoseMary's Baby
You really do not have much in the way of options
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Lol. But how do you really feel about this poor man's plight, Realone? No, seriously, I see where you're coming from. How many times do we hear "buyer beware" in our life, right?
The forum has different opinions regarding the usefulness of hiring a lawyer. Apparently, the half of the forum who are lawyers say "hire one" and everyone esle says "don't throw good money after bad." lol. One thing that I didn't see mentioned yet is how, in addition to possible fraud or unlawful trade practices claims, the OP's state might have elder financial abuse laws (or other laws to protect vulnerable people) that could make recovery easier if the OP is old enough (or otherwise vulnerable). Sometimes, in the right situation, lawyers take cases like that on contingency, with little cost to the plaintiff, if those laws allow a winning party to recover their attorney fees. The OP might even be able to find a lawyer to prosecute other claims on contingency. I also think that would be a pretty good gauge of the strength of the OP's case.
<< <i>Lol. But how do you really feel about this poor man's plight, Realone? No, seriously, I see where you're coming from. How many times do we hear "buyer beware" in our life, right?
The forum has different opinions regarding the usefulness of hiring a lawyer. Apparently, the half of the forum who are lawyers say "hire one" and everyone esle says "don't throw good money after bad." lol. One thing that I didn't see mentioned yet is how, in addition to possible fraud or unlawful trade practices claims, the OP's state might have elder financial abuse laws (or other laws to protect vulnerable people) that could make recovery easier if the OP is old enough (or otherwise vulnerable). Sometimes, in the right situation, lawyers take cases like that on contingency, with little cost to the plaintiff, if those laws allow a winning party to recover their attorney fees. The OP might even be able to find a lawyer to prosecute other claims on contingency. I also think that would be a pretty good gauge of the strength of the OP's case. >>
If the law doesn't allow for recovery of attorney fees...after the lawyer's chunk comes out, unless there are punitive damages involved, the person would likely have been better off to have kept and resold the items.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Look burnt,I am truly sympathetic about your situation.It sucks for sure.
However I am shaking my head over someone who buys big ticket items from a telemarketer.Its as crazy as sending in ounces of your old jewelry to a firm who will give you 100.00 or less an ounce.If you were looking for an investment..welcome to the real world.Investments go down as well as up.IMO chasing them with lawyers is a waste of time and money.You may just have to chalk it up to a bad decision.
Your post confused me somewhat.You mention asking for ms 65 coins.If they agreed (in writting) and it was clear that they were slabbed coins but you got a slabbed ms61 then you were ripped off.A complaint should have been filed with your CC right away.BUT if you said I would like ms 65 coins please and the coins were raw you made a bad decision.Even the best coin dealers will tell you that grading is subjective so your ms 61 may be their ms65.
By the way someone named Bob has called me from universal a few times because he has a great deal for me in gold coins .He talks like he knows me...hi mike how ya doing today etc.After the first two times I just hang up the phone on him.
<< <i>Hi,
thanks for all the replies. I actually am looking for an attorney - the right kind. The coins are PCGS/NGC certified. The company won't take back a return and the credit card company does not do fraud investigations if its been more than 60 days from purchase - which it is now.
If you guys are saying this has happened before and its very common to be defrauded by telemarketers - then what about starting a class-action lawsuit? I'll need some recommendations for suitable attorneys - any ideas?
Thanks! >>
If you willingly paid the price they quoted for coins of a particular numerical grade in PCGS and NGC slabs...and they delivered them...no fraud. Many certified coin sellers accept no returns at all because of that trading model...Spots on gold coins are common due to the way the alloy was mixed and indicates an ORIGINAL UNCLEANED coin. Retail Prices for coins vary wildly, like on all items. So-called price guides are averages of surveyed dealers. Sellers (of anything) aren't paying their staffs to call people and tell them to buy the item from a competitor who sells it cheaper because they don't have a sales staff!
By the way, I think its much better to own 2 or 3 (sometimes ten!)MS62 gold coins for the price of ONE graded MS65
The authenticity and grade are guaranteed .
You need only return the coins to the appropriate TPG and if over graded , you will be compensated .