PCGS AG-3 1916 SLQ on Heritage. Very Questionable.

johnny54321

Something is VERY wrong here! I see the lower loop of the"6" but none of the diagnostics look right. Altered date misattributed? This is the second one from PCGS I've seen that I have seriously questioned.... Can we alert Heritage if there is a problem?



PCGS AG-3 on Heritage

johnny54321

Cert verification checks out. Here are the pictures, and I rotated the obverse around for easier viewing. There are still 4 days left until the end of the auction.

coin22lover

I don't collect SLQ's, but I think that last digit looks wrong-ish.

Broadstruck

Looks like a 1916 to me just based on the head and the lower gown details.

coinkid855

According to this ANACS article, the inner bead on either side above Liberty's head should be weak. I agree, not a 1916.



-Paul

johnny54321

<< <i>Looks like a 1916 to me just based on the head and the lower gown details >>



Really? There is nothing about that coin that matches the diagnostics imo.
-The head does not break into the top beads(should be cut in half).
-The shield rivets and stars are way too bold
- The robe crease beneath her right arm does not extend past the bulkhead.
-The fold at the bottom of the robe is of the 1917 type.

I am quite confident that this is not a 1916.

fcloud

The rivets on the shield are too strong. Unless there is a different die than what I have seen in diagnostics before.

Broadstruck

Nope your right I was looking at the large blow up on Heritage upside down.

Looking at your turned images it is a 1917.

Here's a 16 in G-6.

Raybo

Nice catch Johnny!

johnny54321

Nice 1916 slq Broadstruck! I recently pulled a FR02 from an ebay lot and it just got back from ANACS. :-) see thread:
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=768314

Anyways, what should we do from here? I'm not too familiar with Heritage, except I know that they are an extremely reputable auction house....so can we report it to them? It's already up to $1840 w/BP, so someone stands to lose a lot of money...:-(

MarkInDavis

Definitely '17 to my eye.

cmerlo1

I know the last digit that is barely showing looks like a 6, but everything else looks wrong. I agree with the OP- maybe an altered date that did time as a pocket piece to cover up the work...

Broadstruck

<< <i>Anyways, what should we do from here? I'm not too familiar with Heritage, except I know that they are an extremely reputable auction house....so can we report it to them? It's already up to $1840 w/BP, so someone stands to lose a lot of money...:-( >>



Not sure what they will do

A few years ago I reported a ANACS Cleaned coin that had been enhanced by a Coin Doctor and was now in a PCGS Slab.

Off course I discovered the earlier coin in their archives right after I had placed a bid.

I sent Heritage a lengthy email and they retracted my bid, but let the coin run.

truthteller

The coin in the OP appears to be a 1917 type 1 from the diagnostics.




TRUTH

Broadstruck

<< <i>Nice 1916 slq Broadstruck! I recently pulled a FR02 from an ebay lot and it just got back from ANACS. :-) see thread:
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=768314 >>



Your Thread Link

Nice catch johnny54321

That 16 belongs to a friend of mine.

Moldnut

That coin is NOT a 1916 just look at the folds in the drapery in her hand and compare it to the AG coin. Not even close and it should be taken down and looked at by PCGS.

keyman64

I think everyone might have a point here....but to me...it looks like "MELT".

MFH

<< <i>The rivets on the shield are too strong. Unless there is a different die than what I have seen in diagnostics before. >>



Even upside down the rivets showed the coin is actually a 1917...
the date's been altered at one time - because the curve of a 6 just
doesn't match up with the other diagnostics.

Broadstruck

<< <i>Even upside down the rivets showed the coin is actually a 1917 >>



Thanks for rubbing salt in the wound MFH... I just woke up from a nap when I replied!

pakasmom

I THINK the holder looks okay. So even if Heritage doesn't want to hear it, - I bet our honorable hosts would...

Snowman24

is the rotation wrong too ????

veryfine

The coin in question is most definitely a 1917 T1.

TWQG

Looks undergraded at AG03 too.

johnny54321

What really concerns me is that this is the second one that has come up. There is another (misattributed or counterfeit holdered) that I brought up in a different CCU thread as PCGS graded FR-2(see the Link).

Link
Photos:



There is a lot of discussion here, and looking at the PCGS number, it seems like they were "slabbed" close to around the same era based on the serial numbers.

What I'm hearing is that the slabs themselves look authentic, and the owner of the FR2 example stated that a PCGS grader told him that the coin was a genuine 1916 and the slab was authentic! Does PCGS know something that we as the collector community don't know about the 1916 Standing Liberty Quarter? Maybe the newer die was used on some of the 1916 quarters....Or did they just goof on multiple occasions? I'd really like to hear what PCGS has to say, because I am concerned/confused here.

truthteller

Lesson to be learned. If you know your coins, you will not get burned.



TRUTH

IrishMikey

The coin in the image is absolutely a worn 1917. I would be much more concerned about the
authenticity of the holder, after seeing a few fake PCGS holders that looked VERY GOOD at
first glance.

Alltheabove76

Would PCGS buy these back or would this count as "machine error"?

Alltheabove76

Here is a real 1916 PCGS VG8 and the HA coin

Mark

Alltheabove76:

Thanks so much for the pictures. They really clarify the issues!

Moldnut

Nice side by side pictures. Thanks!


I would really like to hear what PCGS has to say about these.

YogiBerraFan

<< <i>Here is a real 1916 PCGS VG8 and the HA coin

>>



Thank for the side by side. A great learning tool.

TexasNationals

It is a 1917, gown, beads and rivets all say 1917, so.............what now, heritage, bpcgs, who takes this off the market and makes it right?

TexasNationals

Honestly it amazes me they can find the small alteration of a MM or something that most people spot, but these are obvious and there are som many diagnostics, you only need 1 not all to know that it is not a 16?? Blows me away.

BigRick

HeritageGreg,

What say you?

messydesk

Hope they kill the auction. Wouldn't it be something if PCGS traced the provenance of the submission to a prominent defendant? The simple, low grade side-by-side shown here needs to be one of those things that's easily available to everyone looking at SLQs. Thanks for posting.

Alltheabove76

machoponcho

Informative thread. Nice detective work! Everyone goofs up now and again. What is done when the one that goofed is informed that they goofed is likely what determines character.

johnny54321

Well, hopefully PCGS can respond here. I am afraid that the auction will go on, the buyer will pay for the coin and then be oblivious to the fact that he was royally ripped off. The buyer of the FR-02 in the other thread I listed is convinced that the forum opinion of the coin was wrong and that his coin is a genuine 1916.

Truthsayer nailed it though. To play in this market, there is really know substitute for knowlege. TPGs help our chances of a successful purchase, but they aren't foolproof.

coinguy1

<< <i>Well, hopefully PCGS can respond here. I am afraid that the auction will go on, the buyer will pay for the coin and then be oblivious to the fact that he was royally ripped off. The buyer of the FR-02 in the other thread I listed is convinced that the forum opinion of the coin was wrong and that his coin is a genuine 1916.

Truthsayer nailed it though. To play in this market, there is really know substitute for knowlege. TPGs help our chances of a successful purchase, but they aren't foolproof. >>

Those who are concerned should contact Heritage

johnny9434

go for a better grade if you can afford it. why play games

johnny54321

<< <i>Those who are concerned should contact Heritage >>



I sent them a problem report in regards to this auction, and linked to this thread. I don't know how much good it will do coming from me, especially since I haven't purchased anything from them. Maybe if multiple folks report it they will take it more seriously.

thanks for all of your help.
John

coinguy1

I sent them a message yesterday, as well.

pakasmom

Mr. Feld was a professional grader for many years and I've been wondering what his opinion was... I'm glad to see him post to this thread.
Am I correct in assuming that you concur, sir? Do you believe this is misattributed? And if so, doesn't it seem like the company that should be alerted is PCGS?

coinguy1

<< <i>Mr. Feld was a professional grader for many years and I've been wondering what his opinion was... I'm glad to see him post to this thread.
Am I correct in assuming that you concur, sir? Do you believe this is misattributed? And if so, doesn't it seem like the company that should be alerted is PCGS? >>

Based on a glance at the images and comments, I concur. But, either way, feel that Heritage should check it out.

I believe that Heritage should be notified first, since time is of the essence and they are the ones who can end the listing. But ultimately, PCGS should be made aware of it.

pakasmom

Thank you for clarifying your opinion. And while I can appreciate the logic behind the "time is of the essence" argument for contacting Heritage. I fear the only entity that Heritage would "hear" is PCGS.

coinguy1

<< <i>Thank you for clarifying your opinion. And while I can appreciate the logic behind the "time is of the essence" argument for contacting Heritage. I fear the only entity that Heritage would "hear" is PCGS. >>

Well, due to your fear, I have sent an email to PCGS, as well. There's nothing wrong with a two pronged assault.

pakasmom

swhuck

We will review the coin tomorrow. If we agree that it's misattributed, we will withdraw the coin and encourage the consignor to contact PCGS.

Thanks!

johnny54321

Thumbs up for Heritage! A careful review should be sufficient. Thanks for your help Mark!

alohagary

interesting thread

LeeG

Heritage.