<< would I rather have ARod on my team or a career 270 hitter? ARod of course. But if I had both players on my team, and this career 270 hitter displayed a knack for getting key base hits late in games, and I had a situation where I as a manager needed a key base hit and both players were available on the bench to pinch hit...I shout out, "270 player, grab a bat"...and all smart managers would make the exact same move - the stat worshippers don't seem to understand this.
You wouldn't last long as a manager making asinine decisiosn like that SteveK...and it doesn't take a "stat worshipper" to figure that out...and as any knowledgable Yankee fan knows, Arod routinely comes through in key situatiosn and late in games with clutch hits. If you don't realize that, you really don't have a clue about the guy and instead are content to base your entire assessment of him as a player on three series in 2005 through 2007.. >>
You're a Mets fan, not a Yankees fan...case closed on that...besides, many, and I do mean many Yankees fans say the exact same thing about ARod that I said, which we have observed from watching him play.
I guess you must have thought Willie Randolph was a great manager. LOL
Even willie randolph would have enough sense to send Arod up to the plate over that fictitious .270 hitter of yours...and no, I disagree with you regarding A-rod...despite his postseason struggles in 2005-2007, I'm sure that MOST Yankee fans who are baseball savvy KNOW that Arod is one of the best hitters in baseball in ANY situation. And without Arod's HUGE production in the ALDS and the ALCS last season, the Yankees arguably may not have even REACHED the World Series. But such facts don't fit into your narrow-minded perceptions, so you conveniently discard them. You remind me of one of those guys who says, I live by the facts, as long as I agree with the facts, LOL..Typical Philly mentality..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i><< would I rather have ARod on my team or a career 270 hitter? ARod of course. But if I had both players on my team, and this career 270 hitter displayed a knack for getting key base hits late in games, and I had a situation where I as a manager needed a key base hit and both players were available on the bench to pinch hit...I shout out, "270 player, grab a bat"...and all smart managers would make the exact same move - the stat worshippers don't seem to understand this.
You wouldn't last long as a manager making asinine decisiosn like that SteveK...and it doesn't take a "stat worshipper" to figure that out...and as any knowledgable Yankee fan knows, Arod routinely comes through in key situatiosn and late in games with clutch hits. If you don't realize that, you really don't have a clue about the guy and instead are content to base your entire assessment of him as a player on three series in 2005 through 2007.. >>
You're a Mets fan, not a Yankees fan...case closed on that...besides, many, and I do mean many Yankees fans say the exact same thing about ARod that I said, which we have observed from watching him play.
I guess you must have thought Willie Randolph was a great manager. LOL
Even willie randolph would have enough sense to send Arod up to the plate over that fictitious .270 hitter of yours...and no, I disagree with you regarding A-rod...despite his postseason struggles in 2005-2007, I'm sure that MOST Yankee fans who are baseball savvy KNOW that Arod is one of the best hitters in baseball in ANY situation. And without Arod's HUGE production in the ALDS and the ALCS last season, the Yankees arguably may not have even REACHED the World Series. But such facts don't fit into your narrow-minded perceptions, so you conveniently discard them. You remind me of one of those guys who says, I live by the facts, as long as I agree with the facts, LOL..Typical Philly mentality.. >>
<<< willie randolph would have enough sense to send Arod up to the plate over that fictitious .270 hitter of yours >>>
Exactly my point about the "sense" of Willie Randolph...which is why Willie Randolph, not debatable, is at the top of the list of worst managers in recent MLB history.
You keep bringing up a Philly angle which has absolutely nothing to do with it...when you know or should know that most Yankees fans have observed the same thing about ARod that I have observed. Yes, the 2010 post season ARod had, may have lessened the view with some of ARod as a talented choke artist, but that doesn't negate him being a choke artist because that's what he is...a talented choke artist.
Did you suddenly become a Yankees fan after all these years? As pathetic as your Mets have been recently over the past few seasons, and they seem to already be fading this season, I wouldn't blame you for being discouraged and going over to the other New York team.
It is clear that attempting to enlighten SteveK about the finer aspects of baseball is akin to spitting into the wind...but I wonder why you haven't called Ryan Howard a talented choke artist? Hmmm? He makes Arod seem like Mr. October, after all, LOL..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
In case you're curious, here are Arod's postseason totals, in their entirety...We know that if you listen to SteveK, you'd think that Arod has played in only three postseason series from 2005-2007, but lo and behold, there is more than meets the eye. But don't try and tell SteveK about this...after all, he claims that a watched pot will never boil, either...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS SO BB AVG OBP SLG OPS 8 Seasons (13 Series) 54 238 199 36 60 14 0 13 35 6 3 29 51 .302 .409 .568 .977
Maybe Arod should have tried to hit more triples...I mean those numbers are HORRIBLE, LOL...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>It is clear that attempting to enlighten SteveK about the finer aspects of baseball is akin to spitting into the wind...but I wonder why you haven't called Ryan Howard a talented choke artist? Hmmm? He makes Arod seem like Mr. October, after all, LOL.. >>
That point has already been made before by your good buddy in this thread Saberman...that Howard is morphing into Dave Kingman, remember? LOL
<< <i>In case you're curious, here are Arod's postseason totals, in their entirety...We know that if you listen to SteveK, you'd think that Arod has played in only three postseason series from 2005-2007, but lo and behold, there is more than meets the eye. But don't try and tell SteveK about this...after all, he claims that a watched pot will never boil, either...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS SO BB AVG OBP SLG OPS 8 Seasons (13 Series) 54 238 199 36 60 14 0 13 35 6 3 29 51 .302 .409 .568 .977
Maybe Arod should have tried to hit more triples...I mean those numbers are HORRIBLE, LOL... >>
I've already addressed all this - I think I'll pass the baton in this thread to somebody else...not that anybody else wants it. LOL
Whomever you would pass the baton to would make the most comical 'team' in the history of teams, LOL.
What would you name your team? Gambling losers? Grown men with younger men heroes? Guys who lost all their money and live down the alley near the foul mouthed girl from Rocky?
You have addressed nothing with any logic, or evidence. Everything you say biased moronisms, LOL.
Again, Ryan Howard the choker has proven to do his worst at the most crucial post season times. In fact, striking out was his most common occurence in those situations!
<< <i>Whomever you would pass the baton to would make the most comical 'team' in the history of teams, LOL.
What would you name your team? Gambling losers? Grown men with younger men heroes? Guys who lost all their money and live down the alley near the foul mouthed girl from Rocky?
You have addressed nothing with any logic, or evidence. Everything you say biased moronisms, LOL.
Again, Ryan Howard the choker has proven to do his worst at the most crucial post season times. In fact, striking out was his most common occurence in those situations! >>
So the moral of this thread is: If you don't fully accept a statistical evaluation of a player based only upon sabermetrics, rather than including intangibles that cannot be given a mathematical value, then you're a knuckle dragging neanderthal and your opinions are worthless.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum , which is commonly referred to as the HOF,
is NOT necessarily a group of players, objectively ranked by career, peak, or single season bests, in Win Shares, WAR value, WHIP, Total Bases, Game winning RBI, or any single statistical measure,
it is in FACT, an independent, non-profit educational institution dedicated to fostering an appreciation of the historical development of baseball and its impact on our culture by collecting, preserving, exhibiting and interpreting its collections for a global audience as well as honoring those who have made outstanding contributions to our national pastime.
There is, as in any other fairly large grouping of people, some better than others, however there is no magical line, or set of minimum statistical achievements to gain admission, even an exception to 10 MLB seasons, or 5 season retirement has been made.
To feel opinions are irrelevant, is very naive, valuing and weighing the length, the quality, the relation to peers, the relation to the entire historical base, and the very subjective concept of fame and popularity, add to the many various different ideas of HOF worth.
Not every HOF player can be comparable to Cobb, Ruth, Wagner, Walter Johnson, or Christy Mathewson, the original members.
Discussion about players should be fun, perhaps informative, and hopefully interesting or enlightening, unfortunately, it too often becomes, rude, vulgar, threatening, and insulting.
This aint no party,... this aint no disco,.. this aint no fooling around.
Oh no please, not Saberman's free throw analogy again...anything but that...if I'm ever stuck in a North Korean prison camp about ready to be brutally tortured, and the interrogator tells me, "stevek you have a choice, be horribly and painfully burned for days, or you have to read Saberman's free throw analogy over and over again for one hour." I would say, "go ahead and light the fire."
Since we are discussing the hall of FAME, should any weight be given to being the leading vote getter in All-Star voting?
Two quick points: 1. We are discussing the hall of fame, fame being the key word, so I believe that it is some what relevent. 2. Players from larger markets tend have more fans, i.e more fame.
The content of their posts, and lack of knowledge, render their opinions worthless. >>
I think you're just looking to instigate rather than have a civil discussion.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
I am buying and trading for RC's of Wilt Chamberlain, George Mikan, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Bob Cousy! Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
Yes, they are worthless. They make no sense, provide no valid evidence...they just say stupid uninformed stuff. Probably one of the reasons a guy like SteveK loses all his money gambling on sports. Probably says, "Ooooh Ryan Howard, he is my hero, when I grow up I want to be just like him. I am betting on him."
Only reason I choose to debate morons on these boards is to get my mind off the important stuff and take a break. I know nothing will change their irrational, biased, and uninformed views, but it is fun toying with them. Many, like stevek, simply don't have the brain power to understand the stuff.
Maybe guys like him, if they would learn to be objective, make their decisions based on as much information gathering as they can, learn to comprehend and verify said information, then they probably wouldn't find themselves in situations like he was in.
It seems every decade or so they add a new building....so how about a baseball shaped McDonalds. Put Ronald McDonald in the HOF!
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Maybe guys like him, if they would learn to be objective, make their decisions based on as much information gathering as they can, learn to comprehend and verify said information, then they probably wouldn't find themselves in situations like he was in. >>
Perhaps you and other sabermetric followers could do the same. For example, accepting there are some intangibles that cannot be given a numerical value to evaluate a player's overal impact. You and I have agreed about this in the past but for whatever reason, you've ignored it since then.
I think deep down inside, you know sabermetrics isn't all inclusive but refuse to accept it; just like others refuse to accept sabermetrics as a great evaluation tool.
Long story short, no system is *perfect*, though the debates sometimes make A+ threads.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>Maybe guys like him, if they would learn to be objective, make their decisions based on as much information gathering as they can, learn to comprehend and verify said information, then they probably wouldn't find themselves in situations like he was in. >>
Perhaps you and other sabermetric followers could do the same. For example, accepting there are some intangibles that cannot be given a numerical value to evaluate a player's overal impact. You and I have agreed about this in the past but for whatever reason, you've ignored it since then.
I think deep down inside, you know sabermetrics isn't all inclusive but refuse to accept it; just like others refuse to accept sabermetrics as a great evaluation tool.
Long story short, no system is *perfect*, though the debates sometimes make A+ threads. >>
Stown,
Ever since I have been on this board, I have said that the good evaluation methods in baseball hitting get you 95% there. The other 5% is reserved for the stuff you are talking about. Defensive measurements are less precise. Statistical measurements in other sports are also less precise(though a little objective common sense goes a loooong way). Baseball hitting lends itself extremely well to sabermetric evaluative tools, virtually rendering perception useless.
However, the lack of objective common sense, the rampant bias, and the simple dismissal of key evidence is what makes many of the arguments by guys like SteveK(or other zealous fans), irrelevent. Yeah, I know...my harshness and such make my arguments less palatable...but it wouldn't be as fun without it.
<< <i>Maybe guys like him, if they would learn to be objective, make their decisions based on as much information gathering as they can, learn to comprehend and verify said information, then they probably wouldn't find themselves in situations like he was in. >>
Perhaps you and other sabermetric followers could do the same. For example, accepting there are some intangibles that cannot be given a numerical value to evaluate a player's overal impact. You and I have agreed about this in the past but for whatever reason, you've ignored it since then.
I think deep down inside, you know sabermetrics isn't all inclusive but refuse to accept it; just like others refuse to accept sabermetrics as a great evaluation tool.
Long story short, no system is *perfect*, though the debates sometimes make A+ threads. >>
Stown,
Ever since I have been on this board, I have said that the good evaluation methods in baseball hitting get you 95% there. The other 5% is reserved for the stuff you are talking about. Defensive measurements are less precise. Statistical measurements in other sports are also less precise(though a little objective common sense goes a loooong way). Baseball hitting lends itself extremely well to sabermetric evaluative tools, virtually rendering perception useless.
However, the lack of objective common sense, the rampant bias, and the simple dismissal of key evidence is what makes many of the arguments by guys like SteveK(or other zealous fans), irrelevent. Yeah, I know...my harshness and such make my arguments less palatable...but it wouldn't be as fun without it. >>
<<< the lack of objective common sense, the rampant bias, and the simple dismissal of key evidence >>>
Actually this sums up yourself quite well. LOL
Any jackass can regurgitate stats, and act like a know-it-all...it takes a real fan to observe the game, know the past history of the game, and make informed opinions based on that. I'll take the objective views of a real fan over your boring, convoluted misleading views anytime.
This is CU Sports Talk...not that I give a chit about you, but I don't know what teams you root for, what city you are from, if you even are a card or coin collector I don't recall any posts from you in Sports Cards and Memorabilia...and a number of times you seemed to be fishing the forum for people to make big bets with...an old forum scamming trick...stir things up, rile people up so that they will bet with you to try and get back at you by taking your money...or you even try to be friendly to some, make some "friends" and try to make some bets with them, and even sometimes payoff some bets, but at the right time come in for the kill, scam some people for some big money and move on to the next forum or come back here with an alt-ID and try to do it again. I'm not saying for sure this is you, but it sure fits the pattern.
Ever since I have been on this board, I have said that the good evaluation methods in baseball hitting get you 95% there. The other 5% is reserved for the stuff you are talking about. Defensive measurements are less precise. Statistical measurements in other sports are also less precise(though a little objective common sense goes a loooong way). Baseball hitting lends itself extremely well to sabermetric evaluative tools, virtually rendering perception useless.
However, the lack of objective common sense, the rampant bias, and the simple dismissal of key evidence is what makes many of the arguments by guys like SteveK(or other zealous fans), irrelevent. Yeah, I know...my harshness and such make my arguments less palatable...but it wouldn't be as fun without it. >>
You and I both agree players cannot give 100% effort 100% of the time but how did you come up with 5%? Is that just an arbitrary number that sabermetric followers have agreed to?
Additionally, saying perception is useless does not validate your argument. A-Rod even admitted that he felt more relaxed last post season than he ever had before, which translated into his best post season to date and finally a ring. Things that happened off the field actually improved his performance on the field.
Just sayin....
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
I will bet you anytime...easy win, LOL. Your observations and perceptions put you in the poor house, why do you continue to rely on them?? LOL. You are the poster boy for the moronic biased knuckle dragging sports fan. You are like a baboon at the zoo that I like to toy with.
Stown,
I don't disagree that those things could play a role, they are human. I wouldn't put the 'existence of clutch players argument' at the 95% threshold...certainly some grey area.
The 95% threshold has to do with baseball hitting specificially, i.e. the value of a BB, 1B, 2B, 3B, HR, SO, Outs Made, in terms of what they mean towards creating runs. That stuff isn't a mystery, and the nature of baseball hitting lends itself extremely well and accurate to accurately figuring that, especially with the advent of the play by play data.
The clutch argument people say, "well he got more meaningful hits" etc..., however, they don't look at every event. That too is laid out in hte play by play data. Except fans tend to look only at the events that fit their side...and brush away the ones that don't. They need to look at both sides of the ledger.
That is why the situational batter runs is actually the common fans dream. It answers those questions that everyone previously guessed at. It doesn't include late/close events, but it can.
For example, look at Dave Parker.
His regular batter runs(based on the play by play data), this does not include any 'clutch' element...is 292 batter runs. Some fans might say, well Parker often got big hits. He did his best in key situations, and always had the knack of driving somebody in, so his .290 batting average was more productive for the team than other guys who hit .290. Were they right?
The situational batter runs allows to see how true that was/is, and gives a very accurate run value to that. If one did apply his hitting and broke it down per situation(situational batter runs), they would see that his hitting with me on base created an extra 108 runs above average. So instead of the 292 standard batter runs, he was at 400. One doesn't have to look at a complicated method to realize that he did get a lot of key hits...all you have to do is notice that his career OPS with nobody on base was .752, and was .875 with men on base.
I have to give credit to the poster 'Baseball' as he is the only one ever on these boards to point out how the situational batter runs has an element that actually allows/credits the notion of a clutch performance...and that it doesn't make sense that I promote that, and rail against the post season mythical player. THe situational batter runs is actually the best of both worlds!
I will bet you anytime...easy win, LOL. Your observations and perceptions put you in the poor house, why do you continue to rely on them?? LOL. You are the poster boy for the moronic biased knuckle dragging sports fan. You are like a baboon at the zoo that I like to toy with.
Stown,
I don't disagree that those things could play a role, they are human. I wouldn't put the 'existence of clutch players argument' at the 95% threshold...certainly some grey area.
The 95% threshold has to do with baseball hitting specificially, i.e. the value of a BB, 1B, 2B, 3B, HR, SO, Outs Made, in terms of what they mean towards creating runs. That stuff isn't a mystery, and the nature of baseball hitting lends itself extremely well and accurate to accurately figuring that, especially with the advent of the play by play data.
The clutch argument people say, "well he got more meaningful hits" etc..., however, they don't look at every event. That too is laid out in hte play by play data. Except fans tend to look only at the events that fit their side...and brush away the ones that don't. They need to look at both sides of the ledger.
That is why the situational batter runs is actually the common fans dream. It answers those questions that everyone previously guessed at. It doesn't include late/close events, but it can, and in the end when those are added, it really doesn't change the value of a player any more than what the traditional batter runs do. >>
<<< I will bet you anytime >>>
Sorry cowboy, I wouldn't trust you with a plugged nickel. LOL
You can spew whatever pathetic comments turn you on, I couldn't care less...but if you try to scam anyone here, you'll be quickly called out - guaranteed.
SteveK, just go away then, and let the big boys talk about the HOF and baseball. I was talking sincerely to Stown about the topic, you need to stop derailing it.
<< <i>SteveK, just go away then, and let the big boys talk about the HOF and baseball. I was talking sincerely to Stown about the topic, you need to stop derailing it. >>
Go ahead little doggie, the thread is all yours. LOL
<< <i>I don't disagree that those things could play a role, they are human. I wouldn't put the 'existence of clutch players argument' at the 95% threshold...certainly some grey area.
The 95% threshold has to do with baseball hitting specificially, i.e. the value of a BB, 1B, 2B, 3B, HR, SO, Outs Made, in terms of what they mean towards creating runs. That stuff isn't a mystery, and the nature of baseball hitting lends itself extremely well and accurate to accurately figuring that, especially with the advent of the play by play data. >>
It appears like you're saying. "Yes, there are some flaws and it's not 100% accurate but it's the best we have, so we're sticking to it as the most accurate way to evaluate a player's physical performace."
Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing sabermetrics; just trying to get a handle on y'alls mindset.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>Perhaps you and other sabermetric followers could do the same. For example, accepting there are some intangibles that cannot be given a numerical value to evaluate a player's overal impact. You and I have agreed about this in the past but for whatever reason, you've ignored it since then. >>
I think the beef that sabermetric followers have is that the "intangibles" are given too much weight in their eyes. "Derek Jeter is a great leader". Maybe so, maybe not. But does that overcome his overrated defense? Tough to say. And so on. Intangibles are important but I think their importance is overstated.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>Perhaps you and other sabermetric followers could do the same. For example, accepting there are some intangibles that cannot be given a numerical value to evaluate a player's overal impact. You and I have agreed about this in the past but for whatever reason, you've ignored it since then. >>
I think the beef that sabermetric followers have is that the "intangibles" are given too much weight in their eyes. "Derek Jeter is a great leader". Maybe so, maybe not. But does that overcome his overrated defense? Tough to say. And so on. Intangibles are important but I think their importance is overstated.
Tabe >>
You're being way too rational.
The problem is that sabermetrics believes the intangibles are statistically insignificant and not even worth mentioning. Sure, sometimes they can be overstated but to not even acknowledge it is pretty exteme.
There has to be some middle ground, ya know?
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i> Additionally, saying perception is useless does not validate your argument. A-Rod even admitted that he felt more relaxed last post season than he ever had before, which translated into his best post season to date and finally a ring. Things that happened off the field actually improved his performance on the field.
>>
I don't want to incite another Internet riot, but this is a great example of the kind of fuzzy thinking that frequently turns these threads into train wrecks in the first place. Consider:
1) Nobody knows if A-Rod actually felt more 'relaxed' last post season. He may have decided AFTER the post-season was over that he felt more relaxed, as a way of trying to explain his results. You're a cyclist, so I'm sure you can understand how this occurs. You have an uncommonly good run, and you fumble for reasons to explain why this run was so exceptional. Everyone I know who competes at anything has fallen prey to this. Did A-Rod say he felt more relaxed in late September? If so, then that's certainly revealing. If he said it in December it's less so.
2) Correlation is not the same as causality. It's not enough to point to the fact that A-Rod felt relaxed and also had a fine post season. You have to establish that the sense of relaxation is RESPONSIBLE for his productivity behind the plate.
Also, as an aside (I'm not directing this towards anyone in particular): Who here who has disparaged, or otherwise dismissed, the use of statistical analysis in sports actually knows anything about statistics? I hear a lot of talk about 'what statistics can't capture', or 'what the eggheads miss', or 'true fans don't need to rely on this stuff', yada yada yada, but have any of you taken advanced statistics courses? Can anyone here even calculate a standard deviation w/o using a calculator, or explain to someone what a p-score, t-stat or f-stat represents? If not, then how can you purport to know what statistical analysis doesn't capture when you know next to nothing about statistics?
Boo I agree with you on the fact that not alot of people know how to apply statistics or how to even calculate them. Also, you need more than speculation and hunches to prove anything.
Take the subject of obesity, studies indicate the increased consumption of sugary beverages in the past 20 years correlates well with the increase in obesity in America during the same time period. Do you know what else correlates almost just as well? The consumption of bottled water which most people would agree shouldn't make you fat (fact is the consumption of bottled water has outpaced soda and juice consumption for quite some time).
However, working with human beings as test subjects for almost 13 years now I can say we are not good robots or instruments for measurement. One day we might do something or say something in a certain situation to only do something totally different the next. I say stats in the measurement of a human activity such as say baseball does a good job of explaining what happened in the past but are not "that" good of a predictor of the future.
Can they be used to detect the best trends, metrics etc. to apply to the data set? Sure and thats what most people who are into the sabermetrics are doing. Thats fine, but most people want to take it to the next level and start acting like Nostrademaus and start predicting the future. Thats where I have an issue.
Also people are very hard to actually test things such as "feelings" or "happiness" and how they change someones performance at work. There has been alot of work on using brain wave patterns to distinguish those feelings and correlate those with answers given by the subject. Maybe MLB can fund a study where they try and determine how a player is doing psycologically and how that may impact his play. Alot of studies like this use written responses from individuals which isn't strong data, you need more impartial data.
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
Comments
You wouldn't last long as a manager making asinine decisiosn like that SteveK...and it doesn't take a "stat worshipper" to figure that out...and as any knowledgable Yankee fan knows, Arod routinely comes through in key situatiosn and late in games with clutch hits. If you don't realize that, you really don't have a clue about the guy and instead are content to base your entire assessment of him as a player on three series in 2005 through 2007.. >>
You're a Mets fan, not a Yankees fan...case closed on that...besides, many, and I do mean many Yankees fans say the exact same thing about ARod that I said, which we have observed from watching him play.
I guess you must have thought Willie Randolph was a great manager. LOL
Even willie randolph would have enough sense to send Arod up to the plate over that fictitious .270 hitter of yours...and no, I disagree with you regarding A-rod...despite his postseason struggles in 2005-2007, I'm sure that MOST Yankee fans who are baseball savvy KNOW that Arod is one of the best hitters in baseball in ANY situation. And without Arod's HUGE production in the ALDS and the ALCS last season, the Yankees arguably may not have even REACHED the World Series. But such facts don't fit into your narrow-minded perceptions, so you conveniently discard them. You remind me of one of those guys who says, I live by the facts, as long as I agree with the facts, LOL..Typical Philly mentality..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i><< would I rather have ARod on my team or a career 270 hitter? ARod of course. But if I had both players on my team, and this career 270 hitter displayed a knack for getting key base hits late in games, and I had a situation where I as a manager needed a key base hit and both players were available on the bench to pinch hit...I shout out, "270 player, grab a bat"...and all smart managers would make the exact same move - the stat worshippers don't seem to understand this.
You wouldn't last long as a manager making asinine decisiosn like that SteveK...and it doesn't take a "stat worshipper" to figure that out...and as any knowledgable Yankee fan knows, Arod routinely comes through in key situatiosn and late in games with clutch hits. If you don't realize that, you really don't have a clue about the guy and instead are content to base your entire assessment of him as a player on three series in 2005 through 2007.. >>
You're a Mets fan, not a Yankees fan...case closed on that...besides, many, and I do mean many Yankees fans say the exact same thing about ARod that I said, which we have observed from watching him play.
I guess you must have thought Willie Randolph was a great manager. LOL
Even willie randolph would have enough sense to send Arod up to the plate over that fictitious .270 hitter of yours...and no, I disagree with you regarding A-rod...despite his postseason struggles in 2005-2007, I'm sure that MOST Yankee fans who are baseball savvy KNOW that Arod is one of the best hitters in baseball in ANY situation. And without Arod's HUGE production in the ALDS and the ALCS last season, the Yankees arguably may not have even REACHED the World Series. But such facts don't fit into your narrow-minded perceptions, so you conveniently discard them. You remind me of one of those guys who says, I live by the facts, as long as I agree with the facts, LOL..Typical Philly mentality..
<<< willie randolph would have enough sense to send Arod up to the plate over that fictitious .270 hitter of yours >>>
Exactly my point about the "sense" of Willie Randolph...which is why Willie Randolph, not debatable, is at the top of the list of worst managers in recent MLB history.
You keep bringing up a Philly angle which has absolutely nothing to do with it...when you know or should know that most Yankees fans have observed the same thing about ARod that I have observed. Yes, the 2010 post season ARod had, may have lessened the view with some of ARod as a talented choke artist, but that doesn't negate him being a choke artist because that's what he is...a talented choke artist.
Did you suddenly become a Yankees fan after all these years? As pathetic as your Mets have been recently over the past few seasons, and they seem to already be fading this season, I wouldn't blame you for being discouraged and going over to the other New York team.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS SO BB AVG OBP SLG OPS
8 Seasons (13 Series) 54 238 199 36 60 14 0 13 35 6 3 29 51 .302 .409 .568 .977
Maybe Arod should have tried to hit more triples...I mean those numbers are HORRIBLE, LOL...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>It is clear that attempting to enlighten SteveK about the finer aspects of baseball is akin to spitting into the wind...but I wonder why you haven't called Ryan Howard a talented choke artist? Hmmm? He makes Arod seem like Mr. October, after all, LOL.. >>
That point has already been made before by your good buddy in this thread Saberman...that Howard is morphing into Dave Kingman, remember? LOL
<< <i>In case you're curious, here are Arod's postseason totals, in their entirety...We know that if you listen to SteveK, you'd think that Arod has played in only three postseason series from 2005-2007, but lo and behold, there is more than meets the eye. But don't try and tell SteveK about this...after all, he claims that a watched pot will never boil, either...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS SO BB AVG OBP SLG OPS
8 Seasons (13 Series) 54 238 199 36 60 14 0 13 35 6 3 29 51 .302 .409 .568 .977
Maybe Arod should have tried to hit more triples...I mean those numbers are HORRIBLE, LOL... >>
I've already addressed all this - I think I'll pass the baton in this thread to somebody else...not that anybody else wants it. LOL
What would you name your team? Gambling losers? Grown men with younger men heroes? Guys who lost all their money and live down the alley near the foul mouthed girl from Rocky?
You have addressed nothing with any logic, or evidence. Everything you say biased moronisms, LOL.
Again, Ryan Howard the choker has proven to do his worst at the most crucial post season times. In fact, striking out was his most common occurence in those situations!
<< <i>Whomever you would pass the baton to would make the most comical 'team' in the history of teams, LOL.
What would you name your team? Gambling losers? Grown men with younger men heroes? Guys who lost all their money and live down the alley near the foul mouthed girl from Rocky?
You have addressed nothing with any logic, or evidence. Everything you say biased moronisms, LOL.
Again, Ryan Howard the choker has proven to do his worst at the most crucial post season times. In fact, striking out was his most common occurence in those situations! >>
The content of their posts, and lack of knowledge, render their opinions worthless.
is NOT necessarily a group of players, objectively ranked by career, peak, or single season bests,
in Win Shares, WAR value, WHIP, Total Bases, Game winning RBI, or any single statistical measure,
it is in FACT,
an independent, non-profit educational institution dedicated to fostering an appreciation of the historical development of baseball and its impact on our culture by collecting,
preserving, exhibiting and interpreting its collections for a global audience as well as honoring those who have made outstanding contributions to our national pastime.
There is, as in any other fairly large grouping of people, some better than others,
however there is no magical line, or set of minimum statistical achievements to gain admission, even an exception to 10 MLB seasons, or 5 season retirement has been made.
To feel opinions are irrelevant, is very naive, valuing and weighing the length, the quality, the relation to peers, the relation to the entire historical base,
and the very subjective concept of fame and popularity, add to the many various different ideas of HOF worth.
Not every HOF player can be comparable to Cobb, Ruth, Wagner, Walter Johnson, or Christy Mathewson, the original members.
Discussion about players should be fun, perhaps informative, and hopefully interesting or enlightening,
unfortunately, it too often becomes, rude, vulgar, threatening, and insulting.
If we disagree with you then our thoughts and opininions are worthless?
Just curious.
Joey
<< <i>Winpitcher,
LOL...the free throw analogy is to the point. >>
In this case, the argument isn't as great though. 17% of all baserunnes scored in Hodges PAs, 17% for Mays, and 16% for Mantle.
http://sportsfansnews.com/author/andy-fischer/
http://sportsfansnews.com/author/andy-fischer/
Since we are discussing the hall of FAME, should any weight be given to being the leading vote getter in All-Star voting?
Two quick points:
1. We are discussing the hall of fame, fame being the key word, so I believe that it is some what relevent.
2. Players from larger markets tend have more fans, i.e more fame.
Please opine.
<< <i>Nope.
The content of their posts, and lack of knowledge, render their opinions worthless. >>
I think you're just looking to instigate rather than have a civil discussion.
1. Bert Blyleven
2. Roberto Alomar
3. Tim Raines
Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
Yes, they are worthless. They make no sense, provide no valid evidence...they just say stupid uninformed stuff. Probably one of the reasons a guy like SteveK loses all his money gambling on sports. Probably says, "Ooooh Ryan Howard, he is my hero, when I grow up I want to be just like him. I am betting on him."
Only reason I choose to debate morons on these boards is to get my mind off the important stuff and take a break. I know nothing will change their irrational, biased, and uninformed views, but it is fun toying with them. Many, like stevek, simply don't have the brain power to understand the stuff.
Maybe guys like him, if they would learn to be objective, make their decisions based on as much information gathering as they can, learn to comprehend and verify said information, then they probably wouldn't find themselves in situations like he was in.
I do not subscribe to the proposition that induction into the HOF should be predicated soley on numbers
Is this thread dead?
Mostlikely in view of the fact that sports and what matters most in life is not about just numbers...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Maybe guys like him, if they would learn to be objective, make their decisions based on as much information gathering as they can, learn to comprehend and verify said information, then they probably wouldn't find themselves in situations like he was in. >>
Perhaps you and other sabermetric followers could do the same. For example, accepting there are some intangibles that cannot be given a numerical value to evaluate a player's overal impact. You and I have agreed about this in the past but for whatever reason, you've ignored it since then.
I think deep down inside, you know sabermetrics isn't all inclusive but refuse to accept it; just like others refuse to accept sabermetrics as a great evaluation tool.
Long story short, no system is *perfect*, though the debates sometimes make A+ threads.
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe guys like him, if they would learn to be objective, make their decisions based on as much information gathering as they can, learn to comprehend and verify said information, then they probably wouldn't find themselves in situations like he was in. >>
Perhaps you and other sabermetric followers could do the same. For example, accepting there are some intangibles that cannot be given a numerical value to evaluate a player's overal impact. You and I have agreed about this in the past but for whatever reason, you've ignored it since then.
I think deep down inside, you know sabermetrics isn't all inclusive but refuse to accept it; just like others refuse to accept sabermetrics as a great evaluation tool.
Long story short, no system is *perfect*, though the debates sometimes make A+ threads. >>
Stown,
Ever since I have been on this board, I have said that the good evaluation methods in baseball hitting get you 95% there. The other 5% is reserved for the stuff you are talking about. Defensive measurements are less precise. Statistical measurements in other sports are also less precise(though a little objective common sense goes a loooong way). Baseball hitting lends itself extremely well to sabermetric evaluative tools, virtually rendering perception useless.
However, the lack of objective common sense, the rampant bias, and the simple dismissal of key evidence is what makes many of the arguments by guys like SteveK(or other zealous fans), irrelevent. Yeah, I know...my harshness and such make my arguments less palatable...but it wouldn't be as fun without it.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe guys like him, if they would learn to be objective, make their decisions based on as much information gathering as they can, learn to comprehend and verify said information, then they probably wouldn't find themselves in situations like he was in. >>
Perhaps you and other sabermetric followers could do the same. For example, accepting there are some intangibles that cannot be given a numerical value to evaluate a player's overal impact. You and I have agreed about this in the past but for whatever reason, you've ignored it since then.
I think deep down inside, you know sabermetrics isn't all inclusive but refuse to accept it; just like others refuse to accept sabermetrics as a great evaluation tool.
Long story short, no system is *perfect*, though the debates sometimes make A+ threads. >>
Stown,
Ever since I have been on this board, I have said that the good evaluation methods in baseball hitting get you 95% there. The other 5% is reserved for the stuff you are talking about. Defensive measurements are less precise. Statistical measurements in other sports are also less precise(though a little objective common sense goes a loooong way). Baseball hitting lends itself extremely well to sabermetric evaluative tools, virtually rendering perception useless.
However, the lack of objective common sense, the rampant bias, and the simple dismissal of key evidence is what makes many of the arguments by guys like SteveK(or other zealous fans), irrelevent. Yeah, I know...my harshness and such make my arguments less palatable...but it wouldn't be as fun without it. >>
<<< the lack of objective common sense, the rampant bias, and the simple dismissal of key evidence >>>
Actually this sums up yourself quite well. LOL
Any jackass can regurgitate stats, and act like a know-it-all...it takes a real fan to observe the game, know the past history of the game, and make informed opinions based on that. I'll take the objective views of a real fan over your boring, convoluted misleading views anytime.
This is CU Sports Talk...not that I give a chit about you, but I don't know what teams you root for, what city you are from, if you even are a card or coin collector I don't recall any posts from you in Sports Cards and Memorabilia...and a number of times you seemed to be fishing the forum for people to make big bets with...an old forum scamming trick...stir things up, rile people up so that they will bet with you to try and get back at you by taking your money...or you even try to be friendly to some, make some "friends" and try to make some bets with them, and even sometimes payoff some bets, but at the right time come in for the kill, scam some people for some big money and move on to the next forum or come back here with an alt-ID and try to do it again. I'm not saying for sure this is you, but it sure fits the pattern.
<< <i>Stown,
Ever since I have been on this board, I have said that the good evaluation methods in baseball hitting get you 95% there. The other 5% is reserved for the stuff you are talking about. Defensive measurements are less precise. Statistical measurements in other sports are also less precise(though a little objective common sense goes a loooong way). Baseball hitting lends itself extremely well to sabermetric evaluative tools, virtually rendering perception useless.
However, the lack of objective common sense, the rampant bias, and the simple dismissal of key evidence is what makes many of the arguments by guys like SteveK(or other zealous fans), irrelevent. Yeah, I know...my harshness and such make my arguments less palatable...but it wouldn't be as fun without it. >>
You and I both agree players cannot give 100% effort 100% of the time but how did you come up with 5%? Is that just an arbitrary number that sabermetric followers have agreed to?
Additionally, saying perception is useless does not validate your argument. A-Rod even admitted that he felt more relaxed last post season than he ever had before, which translated into his best post season to date and finally a ring. Things that happened off the field actually improved his performance on the field.
Just sayin....
I will bet you anytime...easy win, LOL. Your observations and perceptions put you in the poor house, why do you continue to rely on them?? LOL. You are the poster boy for the moronic biased knuckle dragging sports fan. You are like a baboon at the zoo that I like to toy with.
Stown,
I don't disagree that those things could play a role, they are human. I wouldn't put the 'existence of clutch players argument' at the 95% threshold...certainly some grey area.
The 95% threshold has to do with baseball hitting specificially, i.e. the value of a BB, 1B, 2B, 3B, HR, SO, Outs Made, in terms of what they mean towards creating runs. That stuff isn't a mystery, and the nature of baseball hitting lends itself extremely well and accurate to accurately figuring that, especially with the advent of the play by play data.
The clutch argument people say, "well he got more meaningful hits" etc..., however, they don't look at every event. That too is laid out in hte play by play data. Except fans tend to look only at the events that fit their side...and brush away the ones that don't. They need to look at both sides of the ledger.
That is why the situational batter runs is actually the common fans dream. It answers those questions that everyone previously guessed at. It doesn't include late/close events, but it can.
For example, look at Dave Parker.
His regular batter runs(based on the play by play data), this does not include any 'clutch' element...is 292 batter runs. Some fans might say, well Parker often got big hits. He did his best in key situations, and always had the knack of driving somebody in, so his .290 batting average was more productive for the team than other guys who hit .290. Were they right?
The situational batter runs allows to see how true that was/is, and gives a very accurate run value to that. If one did apply his hitting and broke it down per situation(situational batter runs), they would see that his hitting with me on base created an extra 108 runs above average. So instead of the 292 standard batter runs, he was at 400. One doesn't have to look at a complicated method to realize that he did get a lot of key hits...all you have to do is notice that his career OPS with nobody on base was .752, and was .875 with men on base.
I have to give credit to the poster 'Baseball' as he is the only one ever on these boards to point out how the situational batter runs has an element that actually allows/credits the notion of a clutch performance...and that it doesn't make sense that I promote that, and rail against the post season mythical player. THe situational batter runs is actually the best of both worlds!
<< <i>SteveK,
I will bet you anytime...easy win, LOL. Your observations and perceptions put you in the poor house, why do you continue to rely on them?? LOL. You are the poster boy for the moronic biased knuckle dragging sports fan. You are like a baboon at the zoo that I like to toy with.
Stown,
I don't disagree that those things could play a role, they are human. I wouldn't put the 'existence of clutch players argument' at the 95% threshold...certainly some grey area.
The 95% threshold has to do with baseball hitting specificially, i.e. the value of a BB, 1B, 2B, 3B, HR, SO, Outs Made, in terms of what they mean towards creating runs. That stuff isn't a mystery, and the nature of baseball hitting lends itself extremely well and accurate to accurately figuring that, especially with the advent of the play by play data.
The clutch argument people say, "well he got more meaningful hits" etc..., however, they don't look at every event. That too is laid out in hte play by play data. Except fans tend to look only at the events that fit their side...and brush away the ones that don't. They need to look at both sides of the ledger.
That is why the situational batter runs is actually the common fans dream. It answers those questions that everyone previously guessed at. It doesn't include late/close events, but it can, and in the end when those are added, it really doesn't change the value of a player any more than what the traditional batter runs do. >>
<<< I will bet you anytime >>>
Sorry cowboy, I wouldn't trust you with a plugged nickel. LOL
You can spew whatever pathetic comments turn you on, I couldn't care less...but if you try to scam anyone here, you'll be quickly called out - guaranteed.
<< <i>SteveK, just go away then, and let the big boys talk about the HOF and baseball. I was talking sincerely to Stown about the topic, you need to stop derailing it. >>
Go ahead little doggie, the thread is all yours. LOL
<< <i>I don't disagree that those things could play a role, they are human. I wouldn't put the 'existence of clutch players argument' at the 95% threshold...certainly some grey area.
The 95% threshold has to do with baseball hitting specificially, i.e. the value of a BB, 1B, 2B, 3B, HR, SO, Outs Made, in terms of what they mean towards creating runs. That stuff isn't a mystery, and the nature of baseball hitting lends itself extremely well and accurate to accurately figuring that, especially with the advent of the play by play data. >>
It appears like you're saying. "Yes, there are some flaws and it's not 100% accurate but it's the best we have, so we're sticking to it as the most accurate way to evaluate a player's physical performace."
Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing sabermetrics; just trying to get a handle on y'alls mindset.
<< <i>Perhaps you and other sabermetric followers could do the same. For example, accepting there are some intangibles that cannot be given a numerical value to evaluate a player's overal impact. You and I have agreed about this in the past but for whatever reason, you've ignored it since then. >>
I think the beef that sabermetric followers have is that the "intangibles" are given too much weight in their eyes. "Derek Jeter is a great leader". Maybe so, maybe not. But does that overcome his overrated defense? Tough to say. And so on. Intangibles are important but I think their importance is overstated.
Tabe
" That is why the situational batter runs is actually the common fans dream. "
I asked before, and perhaps missed it,
how about a link ?,
or at least the name of the website, or organization which has calculated this stat.
<< <i>
<< <i>Perhaps you and other sabermetric followers could do the same. For example, accepting there are some intangibles that cannot be given a numerical value to evaluate a player's overal impact. You and I have agreed about this in the past but for whatever reason, you've ignored it since then. >>
I think the beef that sabermetric followers have is that the "intangibles" are given too much weight in their eyes. "Derek Jeter is a great leader". Maybe so, maybe not. But does that overcome his overrated defense? Tough to say. And so on. Intangibles are important but I think their importance is overstated.
Tabe >>
You're being way too rational.
The problem is that sabermetrics believes the intangibles are statistically insignificant and not even worth mentioning. Sure, sometimes they can be overstated but to not even acknowledge it is pretty exteme.
There has to be some middle ground, ya know?
<< <i>
Additionally, saying perception is useless does not validate your argument. A-Rod even admitted that he felt more relaxed last post season than he ever had before, which translated into his best post season to date and finally a ring. Things that happened off the field actually improved his performance on the field.
>>
I don't want to incite another Internet riot, but this is a great example of the kind of fuzzy thinking that frequently turns these threads into train wrecks in the first place. Consider:
1) Nobody knows if A-Rod actually felt more 'relaxed' last post season. He may have decided AFTER the post-season was over that he felt more relaxed, as a way of trying to explain his results. You're a cyclist, so I'm sure you can understand how this occurs. You have an uncommonly good run, and you fumble for reasons to explain why this run was so exceptional. Everyone I know who competes at anything has fallen prey to this. Did A-Rod say he felt more relaxed in late September? If so, then that's certainly revealing. If he said it in December it's less so.
2) Correlation is not the same as causality. It's not enough to point to the fact that A-Rod felt relaxed and also had a fine post season. You have to establish that the sense of relaxation is RESPONSIBLE for his productivity behind the plate.
Also, as an aside (I'm not directing this towards anyone in particular): Who here who has disparaged, or otherwise dismissed, the use of statistical analysis in sports actually knows anything about statistics? I hear a lot of talk about 'what statistics can't capture', or 'what the eggheads miss', or 'true fans don't need to rely on this stuff', yada yada yada, but have any of you taken advanced statistics courses? Can anyone here even calculate a standard deviation w/o using a calculator, or explain to someone what a p-score, t-stat or f-stat represents? If not, then how can you purport to know what statistical analysis doesn't capture when you know next to nothing about statistics?
<< <i>You're being way too rational. >>
Mind if I frame this and put it on my wall? This is an accusation of which I am rarely guilty
Tabe
Take the subject of obesity, studies indicate the increased consumption of sugary beverages in the past 20 years correlates well with the increase in obesity in America during the same time period. Do you know what else correlates almost just as well? The consumption of bottled water which most people would agree shouldn't make you fat (fact is the consumption of bottled water has outpaced soda and juice consumption for quite some time).
However, working with human beings as test subjects for almost 13 years now I can say we are not good robots or instruments for measurement. One day we might do something or say something in a certain situation to only do something totally different the next. I say stats in the measurement of a human activity such as say baseball does a good job of explaining what happened in the past but are not "that" good of a predictor of the future.
Can they be used to detect the best trends, metrics etc. to apply to the data set? Sure and thats what most people who are into the sabermetrics are doing. Thats fine, but most people want to take it to the next level and start acting like Nostrademaus and start predicting the future. Thats where I have an issue.
Also people are very hard to actually test things such as "feelings" or "happiness" and how they change someones performance at work. There has been alot of work on using brain wave patterns to distinguish those feelings and correlate those with answers given by the subject. Maybe MLB can fund a study where they try and determine how a player is doing psycologically and how that may impact his play. Alot of studies like this use written responses from individuals which isn't strong data, you need more impartial data.
Its time for a GEICO commercial
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.