Arod's post-season OPS is higher than it is for the regular season, as is Jeter's (though Arod's is significantly higher in both cases). I do not understand why Arod is supposed to be a choker and unable to handle pressure situations. There are fluctuations in the performance of any player. If you play a lot of games in the post-seaason you will have a stretch (or in Jeter's case, three stretches) where your performance is below your norm. It happens in the regular season as well. Look at the post-season numbers for Williams, Mays, and Bonds. Were they chokers? Bonds was awful in 4 of his first five post-seasons, and terrific his last four. Did he overcome the choke factor? Do roids overcome the choke factor?
Exactly! The only truth here is that if you gave a player enough opportunities, he will perform as well (or as poorly) as he has during the regular season of his career (with some variations). All great hitters go through periods of time during which they struggle. Of course, with a player like A-rod and with the national stage of playoff baseball, those struggles (when the player is struggling) are magnified tenfold, and a period of time that seems endless to a fan (in Arod's case, from 2005-2007), does not truly offer a statistically significant sample when you compare the number of opportunities within that time frame to the total number of postseason opportunities during a career. In fact, Arod had tremendous postseason success prior to 2005, and without his postseason production in 2009 it is at least debatable (or plausible) that the Yankees do not even REACH the World Series vs the Phillies.
I'll offer another example here of a player who has the "anti-Arod effect" when it comes to postseason perception: Jack Morris. Everyone agrees that Jack Morris was a driving force behind the 1984 and 1991 World Championship teams he played for, and rightfully so. He was lauded as a "clutch" player who knew how to "take it up a notch" when he needed to for the big games. So what happened in 1992, one year after Morris' superhuman performance in the 1991 postseason? Did he suddenly forget how to be "clutch?" Did the pressure finally get to him? Well, something must have happened, because he was absolutely putrid in both the ALCS and the World Series that season.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>It is valued the same as a lazy pop-up. His hustle on the play appears as an extra putout, nothing more or less. A ground ball to his left would appear, most likely, as a single up the middle. If he hustles to more balls, it will appear in the stats. If he has a slow first step, or can not go to his left, that will appear as well. >>
How can you account for "extra putouts" if there's no footage of the play? >>
1. Count the putouts. 2. There is footage of every play.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>1. Count the putouts. 2. There is footage of every play. >>
There isn't always footage from days gone by. What happens then?
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>Arod's post-season OPS is higher than it is for the regular season, as is Jeter's (though Arod's is significantly higher in both cases). I do not understand why Arod is supposed to be a choker and unable to handle pressure situations. There are fluctuations in the performance of any player. If you play a lot of games in the post-seaason you will have a stretch (or in Jeter's case, three stretches) where your performance is below your norm. It happens in the regular season as well. Look at the post-season numbers for Williams, Mays, and Bonds. Were they chokers? Bonds was awful in 4 of his first five post-seasons, and terrific his last four. Did he overcome the choke factor? Do roids overcome the choke factor?
Exactly! The only truth here is that if you gave a player enough opportunities, he will perform as well (or as poorly) as he has during the regular season of his career (with some variations). All great hitters go through periods of time during which they struggle. Of course, with a player like A-rod and with the national stage of playoff baseball, those struggles (when the player is struggling) are magnified tenfold, and a period of time that seems endless to a fan (in Arod's case, from 2005-2007), does not truly offer a statistically significant sample when you compare the number of opportunities within that time frame to the total number of postseason opportunities during a career. In fact, Arod had tremendous postseason success prior to 2005, and without his postseason production in 2009 it is at least debatable (or plausible) that the Yankees do not even REACH the World Series vs the Phillies.
I'll offer another example here of a player who has the "anti-Arod effect" when it comes to postseason perception: Jack Morris. Everyone agrees that Jack Morris was a driving force behind the 1984 and 1991 World Championship teams he played for, and rightfully so. He was lauded as a "clutch" player who knew how to "take it up a notch" when he needed to for the big games. So what happened in 1992, one year after Morris' superhuman performance in the 1991 postseason? Did he suddenly forget how to be "clutch?" Did the pressure finally get to him? Well, something must have happened, because he was absolutely putrid in both the ALCS and the World Series that season. >>
Exactly. The evidence is so strong, I am surprised people still believe in the myth of the post season hitter. Baseball, if a guy can't handle pressure, he should fold in the field. Saying that because golfers struggle at different aspects of their game, gives ZERO evidence against what i am saying. You are saying these guys can't handle pressure, and equate it to casual friends(another bad example because casual friends have not been through the rigorous pressures getting to MLB and holding a job).
IF a guy cannot handle pressure, then he should fold on fielding/throwng ground balls, because the same pressure is there. If he has a character trait of not handling pressure, how does he handle that immense pressure???? The answer lies in what Grote said.
SACHIRE, Georgia – Authorities in the former Soviet republic of Georgia claim a woman from a remote mountain village turned 130 on Thursday, making her the oldest person on Earth.
Antisa Khvichava from western Georgia was born on July 8, 1880, said Georgiy Meurnishvili, spokesman for the civil registry at the Justice Ministry.
The woman, who lives with her 40-year-old grandson in an idyllic vine-covered country house in the mountains, retired from her job as a tea and corn picker in 1965, when she was 85, records say.
"I've always been healthy, and I've worked all my life — at home and at the farm," said Khvichava, in a bright dress and headscarf, her withering lips rejuvenated by shiny red lipstick. Sitting in the chair and holding her cane, Khvichava spoke quietly through an interpreter since she never went to school to learn Georgian and speaks only the local language, Mingrelian.
Her age couldn't immediately be independently verified. Her birth certificate was lost — one of the great number to have disappeared in the past century amid revolutions and a civil war which followed the collapse of the Russian Empire.
But Meurnishvili showed two Soviet-era documents that he says attest to her age. Scores of officials, neighbors, friends, and descendants backed up her claim as the world's top senior.
The Gerontology Research Group currently recognizes 114-year-old Eugenie Blanchard of Saint Barthelemy, France, as the world's oldest person. The organization is yet to examine Khvichava's claim.
Khvichava has a son, 10 grandchildren, 12 great grandchildren and six great, great grandchidren.
Khvichava's 70-year-old son Mikhail apparently was born when his mother was 60. She said she also had two children from a previous marriage, but says they died of hunger during World War II.
Although Khvichava has difficulty walking and has stayed largely in bed during the past seven years, she makes a point of hobbling unaided to the outhouse on the other side of the yard, loathe to be a nuisance, Mikhail said.
Though her body has all but quit on her — her fingers cramped and deformed by age mean she can no longer maintain her love of knitting — relatives say her mind remains sharp.
"Grandma has a very clear mind and she hasn't lost an ability to think rationally," said Khvichava's granddaughter Shorena, who lives in a nearby village.
To mark the centurion's birthday, a string ensemble played folk music out on the lawn, while grandchildren offered traditional Mingrelian dishes like corn porridge and spiced chicken with herbs to all guests as the party.
You've make some valid points in other debates on this board, but in the case of A-Rod you are allowing your bias as a Yankee fan to cloud your judgment and objectivity. There is nothing wrong with that, but to label Arod as a "choker" in the postseason because of what he failed to do in the three series from 2005 to 2007 while ignoring what he had already done in the postseason prior to that (and done very well, I might add) and did last season defies logic and precludes any meaningful debate as far as I'm concerned. And again, for all his failings in those three first round series from 2005 to0 2007, you ought to be quite appreciative of what he did in 2009, as it is quite possible that SteveK would have had a "back to back" Phillies World Champs banner in his sig line if not for Arod's "clutch" hits and production during the ALDS and ALCS..
And by the way, I know this is Baseball 101, but the very best hitters FAIL 7 out of 10 times at bat, so to expect Arod to produce every year and at every opportunity (whether it's playoffs or otherwise) is really rather ridiculous and defies statistical probability.. Especially when you stop to actually LOOK at Arod's career postseason numbers and realize that they are quite impressive in fact, when looked at in their ENTIRETY.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Perhaps I misunderstood you then...I was under the impression that you bought into that BS about a player being labeled a "choker" because he had a bad series (or couple of series) while ignoring the reality of the big picture. Sure there is pressure to perform on the big stage, but veteran players and superstars like Arod have overcome just about any obstacle you can think of to get to the position they are in and sooner or later their God-given talent and capabilities will dictate their results..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Also, I wouldn't say that Arod's 2007 postseason was awful...not real good certainly, but not nearly as bad as 2005 or 2006. In 2007, he did have a homer and a .353 OBP% to go with a .267 AVG...certainly nothing to write home about (for a player of his caliber at least), but not necessarily "awful."
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Some of the stat worshippers here probably believe that some stat builder player hitting say 3 home runs, and getting say 7 RBI's in a game when his teams wins 15 to 0, is more important than another player getting one key hit and an RBI in a 1 to 0 win for his team, and the stat builder had struck out right before - that simplifies ARod's career in a nutshell...he's often the one who struck out right before.
He has one ring in 17 years, and anyone who watched last year's World Series knows, yes ARod had a nice WS, but the Yankees were clearly the better team and no doubt they still would have won that WS with someone of lesser talent playing third base.
The stat worshippers can distort their stats all they want, but one championship in 17 years, when you're supposedly the key player, the highest paid player, on many teams favored to win the WS, to me says it all. Despite the stats, ARod doesn't come through most of the time when he is truly needed in clutch situations.
I suggest the stat worshippers start watching more games and observe reality, instead of pouring through endless stats which can be used to distort reality. Politicians do that all the time...they use stats to distort reality and I see the same thing going on here to some extent with the stat worshippers.
To the stat worshippers - please provide another example of a player of ARod's stature and talent, who only won one championship in 17 years. I'll give you one - Mike Schmidt, and in all fairness to Mike, those teams the Phillies lost to were about equal to or sometimes better than the Phillies overall, but that being said, Schmidt only won one championship in 18 seasons, and I've already mentioned my thoughts on Mike Schmidt...and I think the example with ARod is more astonishing considering the Yankees extreme payroll versus the rest of the league. And please do not mention Ernie Banks - the teams he played on stunk.
ARod is a talented choke artist - the observations of him over the years point to that conclusion, and "observation" is a method in science...science is not just numbers, it can be observation as well, and we do observe and watch sports or don't we?
Your services are no longer needed, but thanks for trying. Pull your pants back up and stop worshiping your CHOKER hero RYan Howard.
Baseball, it is you who doesn't get it. Guys say all the time that these guys cannot handle pressure, that clown above is one of them. You keep saying that he didn't do well in 2005-2007, great. I heard you. THat has nothing to do with what I am taking about. THat is a statement with no need to even discuss. May as well say, the earth is part of the universe. No kidding.
I am debating something else.
I am not correlating fielding to hitting. I am telling all the people who believe that guys like Arod are not big game players, or cannot handle pressure, that if he did have a character trait as that, then he should be making errors left and right, because how on earth could he hold himself together in the field if he can't handle stress?? After all, he is a choker who can't handle pressure, right?
You keep telling me you are are not saying Arod can't handle pressure, great. No need to debate me then, you agree he can.
When WATCHING, I felt betrayed by Jeter playing like garbage in the post season for three horrendous stretches. Had he played better, I could have enjoyed MORE titles than what they got.
Your services are no longer needed, but thanks for trying. Pull your pants back up and stop worshiping your CHOKER hero RYan Howard.
Baseball, it is you who doesn't get it. Guys say all the time that these guys cannot handle pressure, that clown above is one of them. You keep saying that he didn't do well in 2005-2007, great. I heard you. THat has nothing to do with what I am taking about. THat is a statement with no need to even discuss. May as well say, the earth is part of the universe. No kidding.
I am debating something else.
I am not correlating fielding to hitting. I am telling all the people who believe that guys like Arod are not big game players, or cannot handle pressure, that if he did have a character trait as that, then he should be making errors left and right, because how on earth could he hold himself together in the field if he can't handle stress?? After all, he is a choker who can't handle pressure, right?
You keep telling me you are are not saying Arod can't handle pressure, great. No need to debate me then, you agree he can.
When WATCHING, I felt betrayed by Jeter playing like garbage in the post season for three horrendous stretches. Had he played better, I could have enjoyed MORE titles than what they got. >>
Again with the sexual comments huh little boy? - illustrates what your pathetic mind is thinking about all day. LOL
All you do is regurgitate stats and statements from Bill James - You haven't posted an original thought or idea yet. And it's obvious you really know little about the game.
. And it's obvious you really know little about the game. >>
I believe you have that statement backwards. BTW, should I believe Bill James, a man who has made a living out of analyzing baseball, or a fan whose opinions and judgement are based on a few isolated observations?
<< <i>. And it's obvious you really know little about the game. >>
I believe you have that statement backwards. BTW, should I believe Bill James, a man who has made a living out of analyzing baseball, or a fan whose opinions and judgement are based on a few isolated observations? >>
Still waiting on your answer, Mark.
<< 1. Count the putouts. 2. There is footage of every play. >>
There isn't always footage from days gone by. What happens then?
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>. And it's obvious you really know little about the game. >>
I believe you have that statement backwards. BTW, should I believe Bill James, a man who has made a living out of analyzing baseball, or a fan whose opinions and judgement are based on a few isolated observations? >>
You believe whatever you want to believe. As you should know Bill James has received a lot of respect but a lot of criticism as well...and just because someone copies and pastes stats and quotes from someone else, doesn't mean they understand the game, Capiche?
Nah, you probably don't capiche. LOL
Has the thread stat worshipper ever played the game, and how much?...go into detail. And playing in the boys whiffle ball league doesn't count. LOL
<< <i>To the stat worshippers - please provide another example of a player of ARod's stature and talent, who only won one championship in 17 years. I'll give you one - Mike Schmidt, and in all fairness to Mike, those teams the Phillies lost to were about equal to or sometimes better than the Phillies overall, but that being said, Schmidt only won one championship in 18 seasons, and I've already mentioned my thoughts on Mike Schmidt...and I think the example with ARod is more astonishing considering the Yankees extreme payroll versus the rest of the league. And please do not mention Ernie Banks - the teams he played on stunk.
ARod is a talented choke artist - the observations of him over the years point to that conclusion, and "observation" is a method in science...science is not just numbers, it can be observation as well, and we do observe and watch sports or don't we? >>
<< <i>To the stat worshippers - please provide another example of a player of ARod's stature and talent, who only won one championship in 17 years. I'll give you one - Mike Schmidt, and in all fairness to Mike, those teams the Phillies lost to were about equal to or sometimes better than the Phillies overall, but that being said, Schmidt only won one championship in 18 seasons, and I've already mentioned my thoughts on Mike Schmidt...and I think the example with ARod is more astonishing considering the Yankees extreme payroll versus the rest of the league. And please do not mention Ernie Banks - the teams he played on stunk.
ARod is a talented choke artist - the observations of him over the years point to that conclusion, and "observation" is a method in science...science is not just numbers, it can be observation as well, and we do observe and watch sports or don't we? >>
>>
Now your whole post is cutting and pasting stevek?
Actually since stevek is undeniably the wisest and smartest member on CU Sports Talk, that would be a great idea. LOL
<< <i>To the stat worshippers - please provide another example of a player of ARod's stature and talent, who only won one championship in 17 years. I'll give you one - Mike Schmidt, And please do not mention Ernie Banks - the teams he played on stunk.
ARod is a talented choke artist - the observations of him over the years point to that conclusion, and "observation" is a method in science...science is not just numbers, it can be observation as well, and we do observe and watch sports or don't we? >>
Banks does count. Are we supposed to ignore players who do not fit your theory?
Others-Williams (won 0), Honus Wagner, Walter Johnson, Ripken, Mays, Gwynn (won 0), Randy Johnson, Maddux, Aaron, Mathews, Feller, Spahn, Seaver, Nolan Ryan, Frank Thomas (won 0), Bonds (won 0), McCovey (won 0), Thome (0), McGwire, Sosa (won 0), Piazza (OK-he played only 16 years, but he did not win any, and I need a catcher), Brett, Molitor, Yaz (won 0), Kaline, Hornsby, Cobb (won 0), Mathewson
Bill James has received criticism, but his paycheck comes from the Red Sox. How were they doing before he got there? I read a lot of baseball writers. I pay attention to the ones who have FACTS to support what they are saying. I make up my mind based on my observations, and what I read. I watch a game about every night. Before Bill James came along I was seduced by the false gods of batting average, RBIs, and fielding %.
I played baseball through high school. The sad truth is that I was not good enough to play beyond that level. I was a singles-hitting outfielder.
<<Actually since stevek is undeniably the wisest and smartest member on CU Sports Talk>>
No argument here.
And here I was thinking that baseball at least knew what he was talking about at least some of the time..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>To the stat worshippers - please provide another example of a player of ARod's stature and talent, who only won one championship in 17 years. I'll give you one - Mike Schmidt, And please do not mention Ernie Banks - the teams he played on stunk.
ARod is a talented choke artist - the observations of him over the years point to that conclusion, and "observation" is a method in science...science is not just numbers, it can be observation as well, and we do observe and watch sports or don't we? >>
Banks does count. Are we supposed to ignore players who do not fit your theory?
Others-Williams (won 0), Honus Wagner, Walter Johnson, Ripken, Mays, Gwynn (won 0), Randy Johnson, Maddux, Aaron, Mathews, Feller, Spahn, Seaver, Nolan Ryan, Frank Thomas (won 0), Bonds (won 0), McCovey (won 0), Thome (0), McGwire, Sosa (won 0), Piazza (OK-he played only 16 years, but he did not win any, and I need a catcher), Brett, Molitor, Yaz (won 0), Kaline, Hornsby, Cobb (won 0), Mathewson
What a bunch of chokers. >>
no, no, no, no, no, no...Firstly it should be implied that the list wouldn't include pitchers...come on now...that was a given - no pitchers. Did I even have to mention that? Geez.
Secondly, I didn't go into a full explanation of the "rules" because I thought it would be known based on the flow of the thread that the word "stature" was understood but admittedly, I didn't make that perfectly clear...stature meaning that player versus other talent on the team. Let's quickly take Ted Williams as an example. Most teams in the AL during the late 40's thru early 60's when Williams played, were losing to the Yankees including the Red Sox. Williams didn't have much of a supporting cast and the Red Sox were usually overall outmatched by the Yankees during that time. Williams could have gotten a clutch hit in almost every at bat, and the Red Sox still likely wouldn't have beat out the Yankees for the AL pennant in most seasons. So Williams as an example is clearly out. I can see a number of quick throwouts based on that - lack of supporting cast...whereby ARod has had one of the best, if not the best, supporting casts in MLB history versus the other teams in the league, yet could only lead his team to one WS championship.
Some others you mention I gotta think about. Notice I didn't say there wouldn't be any more, but if there are any more, for sure that list is gonna be real short.
<< <i>Bill James has received criticism, but his paycheck comes from the Red Sox. How were they doing before he got there? I read a lot of baseball writers. I pay attention to the ones who have FACTS to support what they are saying. I make up my mind based on my observations, and what I read. I watch a game about every night. Before Bill James came along I was seduced by the false gods of batting average, RBIs, and fielding %.
I played baseball through high school. The sad truth is that I was not good enough to play beyond that level. I was a singles-hitting outfielder. >>
I wasn't referring to you...I think you know who I was referring to...Saberman. Notice he hasn't posted since my request...he's probably busy conjuring up some phony baseball resume to post. LOL
Coincidentally, it's the same with you and me...I played a lot, a real lot, of baseball from the time I was old enough to pick up a glove, to Little League and thru High School. I certainly wasn't that good, but I had my moments - I pitched a two hitter one time, felt like Nolan Ryan out there - I guess that was my 15 minutes of fame in baseball. LOL
But I loved the game and still do, although to watch and discuss, I enjoy football now a bit more.
<< 1. Count the putouts. 2. There is footage of every play. >>
There isn't always footage from days gone by. What happens then? >>
There is footage for all of Jeter's plays. I'm not sure what you are looking for. >>
It's not only about Jeter. You said, statistically, "His hustle on the play appears as an extra putout".
So does that mean you apply the same extra putout for every hustle play? How do you account "hustle"? Are the players from the early to mid 1900s eligible? What if footage isn't available?
Guess the question is, how and who defines "hustle"? If it's used within your evaluation of a player's defensive ability, there should be clear parameters.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i><<Actually since stevek is undeniably the wisest and smartest member on CU Sports Talk>>
No argument here.
And here I was thinking that baseball at least knew what he was talking about at least some of the time.. >>
Alright then, I'm second wisest and smartest, okay?
>>
Okay 1,007th wisest and smartest - but that's as low as I'm going. >>
Come on now, stevek. That means I'm no higher that 1,008th and I can't go THAT low. But if it is what it is, that must mean Saberman is no higher than 1,009th. >>
There is footage for all of Jeter's plays. I'm not sure what you are looking for. >>
It's not only about Jeter. You said, statistically, "His hustle on the play appears as an extra putout".
So does that mean you apply the same extra putout for every hustle play? How do you account "hustle"? Are the players from the early to mid 1900s eligible? What if footage isn't available?
Guess the question is, how and who defines "hustle"? If it's used within your evaluation of a player's defensive ability, there should be clear parameters. >>
Hustle means nothing unless it results in a play being made. Example-Player A goes all out on every play; player B has a laid back approach. If player B makes more plays in the field because he is quicker, faster, and has a stronger arm, then he is better. Jeter has great hustle, but diving into the stands was one play. If you look at his putouts for the year, he increased them by one with the dive.
A players effectiveness is measured by what he accomplishes; style points do not count. Hustle will improve your effectiveness, but there is no need to define it. You made the play or you didn't. Nothing else matters. Jeter makes fewer than virtually any other SS in MLB. But he hustles.
Just seems odd that your entire premise is based upon non-arguable statistics, yet have an undefined factor.
Unless I'm missing something.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
I thought Cliff Lee was a Yankee...was baseball wrong again??
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I can STILL play. You wouldn't even survive a game of catch with me. I will break your thumb(or your nose because the ball will sail right past your pink glove). If you care to partake in a contest with me, I will gladly do it.
Everyone in this thread is a stat worshiper, only guys like you look at the wrong ones and come to very inaccurate conclusions.
I didn't post because I am still involved with baseball, and have been busy with it. I don't have time to rack up close to 20,000 posts like you do.
You actually have the nerve to talk about supporting casts when you COMPLETELY ignored it all these times with Ryan Howard?? Are you kidding me??? Typical moronic sports fan.
How smart are you?? You are so smart that you gambled all your money away. You have zero credibility. You talk about sports like you know, yet your gambling results show otherwise! LOL.
I can STILL play. You wouldn't even survive a game of catch with me. I will break your thumb(or your nose because the ball will sail right past your pink glove). If you care to partake in a contest with me, I will gladly do it.
Everyone in this thread is a stat worshiper, only guys like you look at the wrong ones and come to very inaccurate conclusions.
I didn't post because I am still involved with baseball, and have been busy with it. I don't have time to rack up close to 20,000 posts like you do.
You actually have the nerve to talk about supporting casts when you COMPLETELY ignored it all these times with Ryan Howard?? Are you kidding me??? Typical moronic sports fan.
How smart are you?? You are so smart that you gambled all your money away. You have zero credibility. You talk about sports like you know, yet your gambling results show otherwise! LOL. >>
So now you progress from acting like a name calling punk to the threat "...I will break your thumb(or your nose..." - acting like a bigger punk. What's next little boy? Maybe you should get a job working for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad - you'd fit right in. LOL
"20,000 posts"
Because I enjoy collecting cards and coins, and enjoy sports talk. As far as a stat worshipper - I think most baseball fans including myself, thoroughly enjoy stats, and I've stated before that half the fun for me of collecting baseball cards is looking at the back of the card for the stats and other info. Your worship of stats is more of a compulsion, and your silly interpretations of the stats, along with your threats of physical violence, borders on a mental disorder - you should get some psychiatric help.
Just seems odd that your entire premise is based upon non-arguable statistics, yet have an undefined factor.
Unless I'm missing something.
>>
Apparently you will not let your opinions be influenced by facts. The # of putouts and assists that Jeter has is a fact. How much his hustle contibuted to them is irrelevant. They are what they are.
Just seems odd that your entire premise is based upon non-arguable statistics, yet have an undefined factor.
Unless I'm missing something.
>>
Apparently you will not let your opinions be influenced by facts. The # of putouts and assists that Jeter has is a fact. How much his hustle contibuted to them is irrelevant. They are what they are. >>
Stats are numbers, and numbers can be interpreted in different ways. Sometimes even thought to be precise mathematical models have proven to be wrong, although that is rare nowadays. Sports is definitely not a precise mathematical model...but it seems some here want to try to make it out that way. In my viewpoint, observation is a more reliable indicator of sports greatness and performance, especially in a team sport, than too much compulsive type microscopic analysis of stats. Some here can't see the forest for the trees.
Just seems odd that your entire premise is based upon non-arguable statistics, yet have an undefined factor.
Unless I'm missing something.
>>
Apparently you will not let your opinions be influenced by facts. The # of putouts and assists that Jeter has is a fact. How much his hustle contibuted to them is irrelevant. They are what they are. >>
Stats are numbers, and numbers can be interpreted in different ways. Sometimes even thought to be precise mathematical models have proven to be wrong, although that is rare nowadays. Sports is definitely not a precise mathematical model...but it seems some here want to try to make it out that way. In my viewpoint, observation is a more reliable indicator of sports greatness and performance, especially in a team sport, than too much compulsive type microscopic analysis of stats. Some here can't see the forest for the trees. >>
Yeah, it is so good that you lost all your money gambling on them????? LOL.
Baseball HITTING is something that can be very preciesly measured by the results(and stats). Your opinons are worthless(especially yours SteveK). The objective analysis shows you wrong all the time. Hey, your hero Ryan Howard is a Choker by the way.
Just seems odd that your entire premise is based upon non-arguable statistics, yet have an undefined factor.
Unless I'm missing something.
>>
Apparently you will not let your opinions be influenced by facts. The # of putouts and assists that Jeter has is a fact. How much his hustle contibuted to them is irrelevant. They are what they are. >>
Stats are numbers, and numbers can be interpreted in different ways. Sometimes even thought to be precise mathematical models have proven to be wrong, although that is rare nowadays. Sports is definitely not a precise mathematical model...but it seems some here want to try to make it out that way. In my viewpoint, observation is a more reliable indicator of sports greatness and performance, especially in a team sport, than too much compulsive type microscopic analysis of stats. Some here can't see the forest for the trees. >>
Yeah, it is so good that you lost all your money gambling on them????? LOL.
Baseball HITTING is something that can be very preciesly measured by the results(and stats). Your opinons are worthless(especially yours SteveK). The objective analysis shows you wrong all the time. Hey, your hero Ryan Howard is a Choker by the way. >>
Debating you is like debating a parrot. A violent parrot at that. LOL
Yes, hitting can be precisely measured with stats, it's the interpretation of those stats is where you get confused. I'll take your word for it that you play the game, but you'd make a lousy manager. You'd make former Mets manager Willie Randolph look good. LOL
Just seems odd that your entire premise is based upon non-arguable statistics, yet have an undefined factor.
Unless I'm missing something.
>>
Apparently you will not let your opinions be influenced by facts. The # of putouts and assists that Jeter has is a fact. How much his hustle contibuted to them is irrelevant. They are what they are. >>
Stats are numbers, and numbers can be interpreted in different ways. Sometimes even thought to be precise mathematical models have proven to be wrong, although that is rare nowadays. Sports is definitely not a precise mathematical model...but it seems some here want to try to make it out that way. In my viewpoint, observation is a more reliable indicator of sports greatness and performance, especially in a team sport, than too much compulsive type microscopic analysis of stats. Some here can't see the forest for the trees. >>
As Steve says, there isn't any emotion involved in this particular discussion.
You claim anything and everything on the baseball field can be attriubuted with a number. I ask for clarification and rather than showing how it's done, you refute it as irrelevant.
That would be an opinion, right? Thought statisitics remove biased opinions and show only facts.
Things that make you go hmmmmmm............
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Just seems odd that your entire premise is based upon non-arguable statistics, yet have an undefined factor.
Unless I'm missing something.
>>
Apparently you will not let your opinions be influenced by facts. The # of putouts and assists that Jeter has is a fact. How much his hustle contibuted to them is irrelevant. They are what they are. >>
Stats are numbers, and numbers can be interpreted in different ways. Sometimes even thought to be precise mathematical models have proven to be wrong, although that is rare nowadays. Sports is definitely not a precise mathematical model...but it seems some here want to try to make it out that way. In my viewpoint, observation is a more reliable indicator of sports greatness and performance, especially in a team sport, than too much compulsive type microscopic analysis of stats. Some here can't see the forest for the trees. >>
As Steve says, there isn't any emotion involved in this particular discussion.
You claim anything and everything on the baseball field can be attriubuted with a number. I ask for clarification and rather than showing how it's done, you refute it as irrelevant.
That would be an opinion, right? Thought statisitics remove biased opinions and show only facts.
However, don't be surprised if this comes up again when you claim something to be undeniable fact and the matter has been completely settled.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Under which stat should I look for leadership? Where do I go to find out who had the most 'hustle' in any given year. How does one find out who led the league in 'work ethic'. Some aspects of baseball are the intangibles and they can not be precisely measured.
For anyone to say that stats are completely irrelevant and that the only thing that matters are opinions, are wrong.
For anyone to say that stats are the be-all, end-all and the stats are the only things that matters would also be wrong.
IMHO, for enshrinement into the HOF, one must have great stats and high regard amongst the sports writers. No where will one find regard on a stats sheet.
<< <i>Under which stat should I look for leadership? Where do I go to find out who had the most 'hustle' in any given year. How does one find out who led the league in 'work ethic'. Some aspects of baseball are the intangibles and they can not be precisely measured.
For anyone to say that stats are completely irrelevant and that the only thing that matters are opinions, are wrong.
For anyone to say that stats are the be-all, end-all and the stats are the only things that matters would also be wrong.
IMHO, for enshrinement into the HOF, one must have great stats and high regard amongst the sports writers. No where will one find regard on a stats sheet. >>
I would actually agree for the most part with the stat worshippers here with an individual sport such as golf or tennis - the stats and winning are basically directly connected. Of course stats are pertinent to a team sport, but they cannot be precisely connected to winning or precisely connected to say clutch hitting for reasons you gave. There are situations where the best hitter on the team, may not be the best player to lay down a bunt in a crucial situation or deliver a key pinch hit if he is on the bench for some reason, and there are almost countless examples of things such as that which winning managers know and take advantage of such as say lesser talented players who have a knack for staying cool under pressure and delivering key hits...they make terrific pinch hitters. Frankly, it's somewhat hard to believe that the stat worshippers here can't or don't understand this basic concept in using the right players at the right time in the game to try to win ballgames.
I think Herb Brooks, an outstanding hockey coach, stated it very well when putting together the 1980 Olympic hockey team and he cut a few of the team's seemingly best players...he said, (paraphrase) "I'm not looking for the best players, I'm looking for the right players." Of course baseball is a different team sport than hockey, but the same concept applies in order to win as many ballgames as possible. If I had a choice would I rather have ARod on my team or a career 270 hitter? ARod of course. But if I had both players on my team, and this career 270 hitter displayed a knack for getting key base hits late in games, and I had a situation where I as a manager needed a key base hit and both players were available on the bench to pinch hit...I shout out, "270 player, grab a bat"...and all smart managers would make the exact same move - the stat worshippers don't seem to understand this.
would I rather have ARod on my team or a career 270 hitter? ARod of course. But if I had both players on my team, and this career 270 hitter displayed a knack for getting key base hits late in games, and I had a situation where I as a manager needed a key base hit and both players were available on the bench to pinch hit...I shout out, "270 player, grab a bat"...and all smart managers would make the exact same move - the stat worshippers don't seem to understand this.
You wouldn't last long as a manager making asinine decisiosn like that SteveK...and it doesn't take a "stat worshipper" to figure that out...and as any knowledgable Yankee fan knows, Arod routinely comes through in key situatiosn and late in games with clutch hits. If you don't realize that, you really don't have a clue about the guy and instead are content to base your entire assessment of him as a player on three series in 2005 through 2007..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>would I rather have ARod on my team or a career 270 hitter? ARod of course. But if I had both players on my team, and this career 270 hitter displayed a knack for getting key base hits late in games, and I had a situation where I as a manager needed a key base hit and both players were available on the bench to pinch hit...I shout out, "270 player, grab a bat"...and all smart managers would make the exact same move - the stat worshippers don't seem to understand this.
You wouldn't last long as a manager making asinine decisiosn like that SteveK...and it doesn't take a "stat worshipper" to figure that out...and as any knowledgable Yankee fan knows, Arod routinely comes through in key situatiosn and late in games with clutch hits. If you don't realize that, you really don't have a clue about the guy and instead are content to base your entire assessment of him as a player on three series in 2005 through 2007.. >>
You're a Mets fan, not a Yankees fan...case closed on that...besides, many, and I do mean many Yankees fans say the exact same thing about ARod that I said, which we have observed from watching him play.
I guess you must have thought Willie Randolph was a great manager. LOL
Comments
Exactly! The only truth here is that if you gave a player enough opportunities, he will perform as well (or as poorly) as he has during the regular season of his career (with some variations). All great hitters go through periods of time during which they struggle. Of course, with a player like A-rod and with the national stage of playoff baseball, those struggles (when the player is struggling) are magnified tenfold, and a period of time that seems endless to a fan (in Arod's case, from 2005-2007), does not truly offer a statistically significant sample when you compare the number of opportunities within that time frame to the total number of postseason opportunities during a career. In fact, Arod had tremendous postseason success prior to 2005, and without his postseason production in 2009 it is at least debatable (or plausible) that the Yankees do not even REACH the World Series vs the Phillies.
I'll offer another example here of a player who has the "anti-Arod effect" when it comes to postseason perception: Jack Morris. Everyone agrees that Jack Morris was a driving force behind the 1984 and 1991 World Championship teams he played for, and rightfully so. He was lauded as a "clutch" player who knew how to "take it up a notch" when he needed to for the big games. So what happened in 1992, one year after Morris' superhuman performance in the 1991 postseason? Did he suddenly forget how to be "clutch?" Did the pressure finally get to him? Well, something must have happened, because he was absolutely putrid in both the ALCS and the World Series that season.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>It is valued the same as a lazy pop-up. His hustle on the play appears as an extra putout, nothing more or less. A ground ball to his left would appear, most likely, as a single up the middle. If he hustles to more balls, it will appear in the stats. If he has a slow first step, or can not go to his left, that will appear as well. >>
How can you account for "extra putouts" if there's no footage of the play? >>
1. Count the putouts.
2. There is footage of every play.
<< <i>1. Count the putouts.
2. There is footage of every play. >>
There isn't always footage from days gone by. What happens then?
<< <i>Arod's post-season OPS is higher than it is for the regular season, as is Jeter's (though Arod's is significantly higher in both cases). I do not understand why Arod is supposed to be a choker and unable to handle pressure situations. There are fluctuations in the performance of any player. If you play a lot of games in the post-seaason you will have a stretch (or in Jeter's case, three stretches) where your performance is below your norm. It happens in the regular season as well. Look at the post-season numbers for Williams, Mays, and Bonds. Were they chokers? Bonds was awful in 4 of his first five post-seasons, and terrific his last four. Did he overcome the choke factor? Do roids overcome the choke factor?
Exactly! The only truth here is that if you gave a player enough opportunities, he will perform as well (or as poorly) as he has during the regular season of his career (with some variations). All great hitters go through periods of time during which they struggle. Of course, with a player like A-rod and with the national stage of playoff baseball, those struggles (when the player is struggling) are magnified tenfold, and a period of time that seems endless to a fan (in Arod's case, from 2005-2007), does not truly offer a statistically significant sample when you compare the number of opportunities within that time frame to the total number of postseason opportunities during a career. In fact, Arod had tremendous postseason success prior to 2005, and without his postseason production in 2009 it is at least debatable (or plausible) that the Yankees do not even REACH the World Series vs the Phillies.
I'll offer another example here of a player who has the "anti-Arod effect" when it comes to postseason perception: Jack Morris. Everyone agrees that Jack Morris was a driving force behind the 1984 and 1991 World Championship teams he played for, and rightfully so. He was lauded as a "clutch" player who knew how to "take it up a notch" when he needed to for the big games. So what happened in 1992, one year after Morris' superhuman performance in the 1991 postseason? Did he suddenly forget how to be "clutch?" Did the pressure finally get to him? Well, something must have happened, because he was absolutely putrid in both the ALCS and the World Series that season. >>
Exactly. The evidence is so strong, I am surprised people still believe in the myth of the post season hitter. Baseball, if a guy can't handle pressure, he should fold in the field. Saying that because golfers struggle at different aspects of their game, gives ZERO evidence against what i am saying. You are saying these guys can't handle pressure, and equate it to casual friends(another bad example because casual friends have not been through the rigorous pressures getting to MLB and holding a job).
IF a guy cannot handle pressure, then he should fold on fielding/throwng ground balls, because the same pressure is there. If he has a character trait of not handling pressure, how does he handle that immense pressure???? The answer lies in what Grote said.
AP – Antisa Khvichava, reportedly 130-year-old Georgian woman, looks at her birthday cake during a ceremony …
By MISHA DZHINDZHIKHASHVILI, Associated Press Writer
Misha Dzhindzhikhashvili, Associated Press Writer – Thu Jul 8, 7:37 pm ET
SACHIRE, Georgia – Authorities in the former Soviet republic of Georgia claim a woman from a remote mountain village turned 130 on Thursday, making her the oldest person on Earth.
Antisa Khvichava from western Georgia was born on July 8, 1880, said Georgiy Meurnishvili, spokesman for the civil registry at the Justice Ministry.
The woman, who lives with her 40-year-old grandson in an idyllic vine-covered country house in the mountains, retired from her job as a tea and corn picker in 1965, when she was 85, records say.
"I've always been healthy, and I've worked all my life — at home and at the farm," said Khvichava, in a bright dress and headscarf, her withering lips rejuvenated by shiny red lipstick. Sitting in the chair and holding her cane, Khvichava spoke quietly through an interpreter since she never went to school to learn Georgian and speaks only the local language, Mingrelian.
Her age couldn't immediately be independently verified. Her birth certificate was lost — one of the great number to have disappeared in the past century amid revolutions and a civil war which followed the collapse of the Russian Empire.
But Meurnishvili showed two Soviet-era documents that he says attest to her age. Scores of officials, neighbors, friends, and descendants backed up her claim as the world's top senior.
The Gerontology Research Group currently recognizes 114-year-old Eugenie Blanchard of Saint Barthelemy, France, as the world's oldest person. The organization is yet to examine Khvichava's claim.
Khvichava has a son, 10 grandchildren, 12 great grandchildren and six great, great grandchidren.
Khvichava's 70-year-old son Mikhail apparently was born when his mother was 60. She said she also had two children from a previous marriage, but says they died of hunger during World War II.
Although Khvichava has difficulty walking and has stayed largely in bed during the past seven years, she makes a point of hobbling unaided to the outhouse on the other side of the yard, loathe to be a nuisance, Mikhail said.
Though her body has all but quit on her — her fingers cramped and deformed by age mean she can no longer maintain her love of knitting — relatives say her mind remains sharp.
"Grandma has a very clear mind and she hasn't lost an ability to think rationally," said Khvichava's granddaughter Shorena, who lives in a nearby village.
To mark the centurion's birthday, a string ensemble played folk music out on the lawn, while grandchildren offered traditional Mingrelian dishes like corn porridge and spiced chicken with herbs to all guests as the party.
You've make some valid points in other debates on this board, but in the case of A-Rod you are allowing your bias as a Yankee fan to cloud your judgment and objectivity. There is nothing wrong with that, but to label Arod as a "choker" in the postseason because of what he failed to do in the three series from 2005 to 2007 while ignoring what he had already done in the postseason prior to that (and done very well, I might add) and did last season defies logic and precludes any meaningful debate as far as I'm concerned. And again, for all his failings in those three first round series from 2005 to0 2007, you ought to be quite appreciative of what he did in 2009, as it is quite possible that SteveK would have had a "back to back" Phillies World Champs banner in his sig line if not for Arod's "clutch" hits and production during the ALDS and ALCS..
And by the way, I know this is Baseball 101, but the very best hitters FAIL 7 out of 10 times at bat, so to expect Arod to produce every year and at every opportunity (whether it's playoffs or otherwise) is really rather ridiculous and defies statistical probability.. Especially when you stop to actually LOOK at Arod's career postseason numbers and realize that they are quite impressive in fact, when looked at in their ENTIRETY.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Perhaps I misunderstood you then...I was under the impression that you bought into that BS about a player being labeled a "choker" because he had a bad series (or couple of series) while ignoring the reality of the big picture. Sure there is pressure to perform on the big stage, but veteran players and superstars like Arod have overcome just about any obstacle you can think of to get to the position they are in and sooner or later their God-given talent and capabilities will dictate their results..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Some of the stat worshippers here probably believe that some stat builder player hitting say 3 home runs, and getting say 7 RBI's in a game when his teams wins 15 to 0, is more important than another player getting one key hit and an RBI in a 1 to 0 win for his team, and the stat builder had struck out right before - that simplifies ARod's career in a nutshell...he's often the one who struck out right before.
He has one ring in 17 years, and anyone who watched last year's World Series knows, yes ARod had a nice WS, but the Yankees were clearly the better team and no doubt they still would have won that WS with someone of lesser talent playing third base.
The stat worshippers can distort their stats all they want, but one championship in 17 years, when you're supposedly the key player, the highest paid player, on many teams favored to win the WS, to me says it all. Despite the stats, ARod doesn't come through most of the time when he is truly needed in clutch situations.
I suggest the stat worshippers start watching more games and observe reality, instead of pouring through endless stats which can be used to distort reality. Politicians do that all the time...they use stats to distort reality and I see the same thing going on here to some extent with the stat worshippers.
ARod is a talented choke artist - the observations of him over the years point to that conclusion, and "observation" is a method in science...science is not just numbers, it can be observation as well, and we do observe and watch sports or don't we?
Yes, I'm going to the clinic later on today, or is this the clinic? LOL
Your services are no longer needed, but thanks for trying. Pull your pants back up and stop worshiping your CHOKER hero RYan Howard.
Baseball, it is you who doesn't get it. Guys say all the time that these guys cannot handle pressure, that clown above is one of them. You keep saying that he didn't do well in 2005-2007, great. I heard you. THat has nothing to do with what I am taking about. THat is a statement with no need to even discuss. May as well say, the earth is part of the universe. No kidding.
I am debating something else.
I am not correlating fielding to hitting. I am telling all the people who believe that guys like Arod are not big game players, or cannot handle pressure, that if he did have a character trait as that, then he should be making errors left and right, because how on earth could he hold himself together in the field if he can't handle stress?? After all, he is a choker who can't handle pressure, right?
You keep telling me you are are not saying Arod can't handle pressure, great. No need to debate me then, you agree he can.
When WATCHING, I felt betrayed by Jeter playing like garbage in the post season for three horrendous stretches. Had he played better, I could have enjoyed MORE titles than what they got.
<< <i>Stevek,
Your services are no longer needed, but thanks for trying. Pull your pants back up and stop worshiping your CHOKER hero RYan Howard.
Baseball, it is you who doesn't get it. Guys say all the time that these guys cannot handle pressure, that clown above is one of them. You keep saying that he didn't do well in 2005-2007, great. I heard you. THat has nothing to do with what I am taking about. THat is a statement with no need to even discuss. May as well say, the earth is part of the universe. No kidding.
I am debating something else.
I am not correlating fielding to hitting. I am telling all the people who believe that guys like Arod are not big game players, or cannot handle pressure, that if he did have a character trait as that, then he should be making errors left and right, because how on earth could he hold himself together in the field if he can't handle stress?? After all, he is a choker who can't handle pressure, right?
You keep telling me you are are not saying Arod can't handle pressure, great. No need to debate me then, you agree he can.
When WATCHING, I felt betrayed by Jeter playing like garbage in the post season for three horrendous stretches. Had he played better, I could have enjoyed MORE titles than what they got. >>
Again with the sexual comments huh little boy? - illustrates what your pathetic mind is thinking about all day. LOL
All you do is regurgitate stats and statements from Bill James - You haven't posted an original thought or idea yet. And it's obvious you really know little about the game.
I believe you have that statement backwards. BTW, should I believe Bill James, a man who has made a living out of analyzing baseball, or a fan whose opinions and judgement are based on a few isolated observations?
<< <i>. And it's obvious you really know little about the game. >>
I believe you have that statement backwards. BTW, should I believe Bill James, a man who has made a living out of analyzing baseball, or a fan whose opinions and judgement are based on a few isolated observations? >>
Still waiting on your answer, Mark.
<< 1. Count the putouts.
2. There is footage of every play. >>
There isn't always footage from days gone by. What happens then?
<< <i>. And it's obvious you really know little about the game. >>
I believe you have that statement backwards. BTW, should I believe Bill James, a man who has made a living out of analyzing baseball, or a fan whose opinions and judgement are based on a few isolated observations? >>
You believe whatever you want to believe. As you should know Bill James has received a lot of respect but a lot of criticism as well...and just because someone copies and pastes stats and quotes from someone else, doesn't mean they understand the game, Capiche?
Nah, you probably don't capiche. LOL
Has the thread stat worshipper ever played the game, and how much?...go into detail. And playing in the boys whiffle ball league doesn't count. LOL
Still waiting on your answer, Mark.
<< 1. Count the putouts.
2. There is footage of every play. >>
There isn't always footage from days gone by. What happens then? >>
There is footage for all of Jeter's plays. I'm not sure what you are looking for.
<< <i>To the stat worshippers - please provide another example of a player of ARod's stature and talent, who only won one championship in 17 years. I'll give you one - Mike Schmidt, and in all fairness to Mike, those teams the Phillies lost to were about equal to or sometimes better than the Phillies overall, but that being said, Schmidt only won one championship in 18 seasons, and I've already mentioned my thoughts on Mike Schmidt...and I think the example with ARod is more astonishing considering the Yankees extreme payroll versus the rest of the league. And please do not mention Ernie Banks - the teams he played on stunk.
ARod is a talented choke artist - the observations of him over the years point to that conclusion, and "observation" is a method in science...science is not just numbers, it can be observation as well, and we do observe and watch sports or don't we? >>
<< <i>
<< <i>To the stat worshippers - please provide another example of a player of ARod's stature and talent, who only won one championship in 17 years. I'll give you one - Mike Schmidt, and in all fairness to Mike, those teams the Phillies lost to were about equal to or sometimes better than the Phillies overall, but that being said, Schmidt only won one championship in 18 seasons, and I've already mentioned my thoughts on Mike Schmidt...and I think the example with ARod is more astonishing considering the Yankees extreme payroll versus the rest of the league. And please do not mention Ernie Banks - the teams he played on stunk.
ARod is a talented choke artist - the observations of him over the years point to that conclusion, and "observation" is a method in science...science is not just numbers, it can be observation as well, and we do observe and watch sports or don't we? >>
>>
Now your whole post is cutting and pasting stevek?
Actually since stevek is undeniably the wisest and smartest member on CU Sports Talk, that would be a great idea. LOL
<< <i>To the stat worshippers - please provide another example of a player of ARod's stature and talent, who only won one championship in 17 years. I'll give you one - Mike Schmidt, And please do not mention Ernie Banks - the teams he played on stunk.
ARod is a talented choke artist - the observations of him over the years point to that conclusion, and "observation" is a method in science...science is not just numbers, it can be observation as well, and we do observe and watch sports or don't we? >>
Banks does count. Are we supposed to ignore players who do not fit your theory?
Others-Williams (won 0), Honus Wagner, Walter Johnson, Ripken, Mays, Gwynn (won 0), Randy Johnson, Maddux, Aaron, Mathews, Feller, Spahn, Seaver, Nolan Ryan, Frank Thomas (won 0), Bonds (won 0), McCovey (won 0), Thome (0), McGwire, Sosa (won 0), Piazza (OK-he played only 16 years, but he did not win any, and I need a catcher), Brett, Molitor, Yaz (won 0), Kaline, Hornsby, Cobb (won 0), Mathewson
What a bunch of chokers.
I played baseball through high school. The sad truth is that I was not good enough to play beyond that level. I was a singles-hitting outfielder.
No argument here.
And here I was thinking that baseball at least knew what he was talking about at least some of the time..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>To the stat worshippers - please provide another example of a player of ARod's stature and talent, who only won one championship in 17 years. I'll give you one - Mike Schmidt, And please do not mention Ernie Banks - the teams he played on stunk.
ARod is a talented choke artist - the observations of him over the years point to that conclusion, and "observation" is a method in science...science is not just numbers, it can be observation as well, and we do observe and watch sports or don't we? >>
Banks does count. Are we supposed to ignore players who do not fit your theory?
Others-Williams (won 0), Honus Wagner, Walter Johnson, Ripken, Mays, Gwynn (won 0), Randy Johnson, Maddux, Aaron, Mathews, Feller, Spahn, Seaver, Nolan Ryan, Frank Thomas (won 0), Bonds (won 0), McCovey (won 0), Thome (0), McGwire, Sosa (won 0), Piazza (OK-he played only 16 years, but he did not win any, and I need a catcher), Brett, Molitor, Yaz (won 0), Kaline, Hornsby, Cobb (won 0), Mathewson
What a bunch of chokers. >>
no, no, no, no, no, no...Firstly it should be implied that the list wouldn't include pitchers...come on now...that was a given - no pitchers. Did I even have to mention that? Geez.
Secondly, I didn't go into a full explanation of the "rules" because I thought it would be known based on the flow of the thread that the word "stature" was understood but admittedly, I didn't make that perfectly clear...stature meaning that player versus other talent on the team. Let's quickly take Ted Williams as an example. Most teams in the AL during the late 40's thru early 60's when Williams played, were losing to the Yankees including the Red Sox. Williams didn't have much of a supporting cast and the Red Sox were usually overall outmatched by the Yankees during that time. Williams could have gotten a clutch hit in almost every at bat, and the Red Sox still likely wouldn't have beat out the Yankees for the AL pennant in most seasons. So Williams as an example is clearly out. I can see a number of quick throwouts based on that - lack of supporting cast...whereby ARod has had one of the best, if not the best, supporting casts in MLB history versus the other teams in the league, yet could only lead his team to one WS championship.
Some others you mention I gotta think about. Notice I didn't say there wouldn't be any more, but if there are any more, for sure that list is gonna be real short.
<< <i>Bill James has received criticism, but his paycheck comes from the Red Sox. How were they doing before he got there? I read a lot of baseball writers. I pay attention to the ones who have FACTS to support what they are saying. I make up my mind based on my observations, and what I read. I watch a game about every night. Before Bill James came along I was seduced by the false gods of batting average, RBIs, and fielding %.
I played baseball through high school. The sad truth is that I was not good enough to play beyond that level. I was a singles-hitting outfielder. >>
I wasn't referring to you...I think you know who I was referring to...Saberman. Notice he hasn't posted since my request...he's probably busy conjuring up some phony baseball resume to post. LOL
Coincidentally, it's the same with you and me...I played a lot, a real lot, of baseball from the time I was old enough to pick up a glove, to Little League and thru High School. I certainly wasn't that good, but I had my moments - I pitched a two hitter one time, felt like Nolan Ryan out there - I guess that was my 15 minutes of fame in baseball. LOL
But I loved the game and still do, although to watch and discuss, I enjoy football now a bit more.
<< <i><<Actually since stevek is undeniably the wisest and smartest member on CU Sports Talk>>
No argument here.
And here I was thinking that baseball at least knew what he was talking about at least some of the time..
Alright then, I'm second wisest and smartest, okay?
<< <i>
<< <i><<Actually since stevek is undeniably the wisest and smartest member on CU Sports Talk>>
No argument here.
And here I was thinking that baseball at least knew what he was talking about at least some of the time..
Alright then, I'm second wisest and smartest, okay?
Okay 1,007th wisest and smartest - but that's as low as I'm going.
<< <i>Still waiting on your answer, Mark.
<< 1. Count the putouts.
2. There is footage of every play. >>
There isn't always footage from days gone by. What happens then? >>
There is footage for all of Jeter's plays. I'm not sure what you are looking for. >>
It's not only about Jeter. You said, statistically, "His hustle on the play appears as an extra putout".
So does that mean you apply the same extra putout for every hustle play? How do you account "hustle"? Are the players from the early to mid 1900s eligible? What if footage isn't available?
Guess the question is, how and who defines "hustle"? If it's used within your evaluation of a player's defensive ability, there should be clear parameters.
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<< <i><<Actually since stevek is undeniably the wisest and smartest member on CU Sports Talk>>
No argument here.
And here I was thinking that baseball at least knew what he was talking about at least some of the time..
Alright then, I'm second wisest and smartest, okay?
Okay 1,007th wisest and smartest - but that's as low as I'm going. >>
Come on now, stevek. That means I'm no higher that 1,008th and I can't go THAT low. But if it is what it is, that must mean Saberman is no higher than 1,009th. >>
LOL
There is footage for all of Jeter's plays. I'm not sure what you are looking for. >>
It's not only about Jeter. You said, statistically, "His hustle on the play appears as an extra putout".
So does that mean you apply the same extra putout for every hustle play? How do you account "hustle"? Are the players from the early to mid 1900s eligible? What if footage isn't available?
Guess the question is, how and who defines "hustle"? If it's used within your evaluation of a player's defensive ability, there should be clear parameters. >>
Hustle means nothing unless it results in a play being made. Example-Player A goes all out on every play; player B has a laid back approach. If player B makes more plays in the field because he is quicker, faster, and has a stronger arm, then he is better. Jeter has great hustle, but diving into the stands was one play. If you look at his putouts for the year, he increased them by one with the dive.
A players effectiveness is measured by what he accomplishes; style points do not count. Hustle will improve your effectiveness, but there is no need to define it. You made the play or you didn't. Nothing else matters. Jeter makes fewer than virtually any other SS in MLB. But he hustles.
<< <i>but there is no need to define it >>
Just seems odd that your entire premise is based upon non-arguable statistics, yet have an undefined factor.
Unless I'm missing something.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
looking for low grade t205's psa 1-2
I can STILL play. You wouldn't even survive a game of catch with me. I will break your thumb(or your nose because the ball will sail right past your pink glove). If you care to partake in a contest with me, I will gladly do it.
Everyone in this thread is a stat worshiper, only guys like you look at the wrong ones and come to very inaccurate conclusions.
I didn't post because I am still involved with baseball, and have been busy with it. I don't have time to rack up close to 20,000 posts like you do.
You actually have the nerve to talk about supporting casts when you COMPLETELY ignored it all these times with Ryan Howard?? Are you kidding me??? Typical moronic sports fan.
How smart are you?? You are so smart that you gambled all your money away. You have zero credibility. You talk about sports like you know, yet your gambling results show otherwise! LOL.
<< <i>SteveK,
I can STILL play. You wouldn't even survive a game of catch with me. I will break your thumb(or your nose because the ball will sail right past your pink glove). If you care to partake in a contest with me, I will gladly do it.
Everyone in this thread is a stat worshiper, only guys like you look at the wrong ones and come to very inaccurate conclusions.
I didn't post because I am still involved with baseball, and have been busy with it. I don't have time to rack up close to 20,000 posts like you do.
You actually have the nerve to talk about supporting casts when you COMPLETELY ignored it all these times with Ryan Howard?? Are you kidding me??? Typical moronic sports fan.
How smart are you?? You are so smart that you gambled all your money away. You have zero credibility. You talk about sports like you know, yet your gambling results show otherwise! LOL. >>
So now you progress from acting like a name calling punk to the threat "...I will break your thumb(or your nose..." - acting like a bigger punk. What's next little boy? Maybe you should get a job working for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad - you'd fit right in. LOL
"20,000 posts"
Because I enjoy collecting cards and coins, and enjoy sports talk. As far as a stat worshipper - I think most baseball fans including myself, thoroughly enjoy stats, and I've stated before that half the fun for me of collecting baseball cards is looking at the back of the card for the stats and other info. Your worship of stats is more of a compulsion, and your silly interpretations of the stats, along with your threats of physical violence, borders on a mental disorder - you should get some psychiatric help.
<< <i>Thanks for the clarification but..
<< <i>but there is no need to define it >>
Just seems odd that your entire premise is based upon non-arguable statistics, yet have an undefined factor.
Unless I'm missing something.
Apparently you will not let your opinions be influenced by facts. The # of putouts and assists that Jeter has is a fact. How much his hustle contibuted to them is irrelevant. They are what they are.
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks for the clarification but..
<< <i>but there is no need to define it >>
Just seems odd that your entire premise is based upon non-arguable statistics, yet have an undefined factor.
Unless I'm missing something.
Apparently you will not let your opinions be influenced by facts. The # of putouts and assists that Jeter has is a fact. How much his hustle contibuted to them is irrelevant. They are what they are. >>
Stats are numbers, and numbers can be interpreted in different ways. Sometimes even thought to be precise mathematical models have proven to be wrong, although that is rare nowadays. Sports is definitely not a precise mathematical model...but it seems some here want to try to make it out that way. In my viewpoint, observation is a more reliable indicator of sports greatness and performance, especially in a team sport, than too much compulsive type microscopic analysis of stats. Some here can't see the forest for the trees.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks for the clarification but..
<< <i>but there is no need to define it >>
Just seems odd that your entire premise is based upon non-arguable statistics, yet have an undefined factor.
Unless I'm missing something.
Apparently you will not let your opinions be influenced by facts. The # of putouts and assists that Jeter has is a fact. How much his hustle contibuted to them is irrelevant. They are what they are. >>
Stats are numbers, and numbers can be interpreted in different ways. Sometimes even thought to be precise mathematical models have proven to be wrong, although that is rare nowadays. Sports is definitely not a precise mathematical model...but it seems some here want to try to make it out that way. In my viewpoint, observation is a more reliable indicator of sports greatness and performance, especially in a team sport, than too much compulsive type microscopic analysis of stats. Some here can't see the forest for the trees. >>
Yeah, it is so good that you lost all your money gambling on them????? LOL.
Baseball HITTING is something that can be very preciesly measured by the results(and stats). Your opinons are worthless(especially yours SteveK). The objective analysis shows you wrong all the time. Hey, your hero Ryan Howard is a Choker by the way.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks for the clarification but..
<< <i>but there is no need to define it >>
Just seems odd that your entire premise is based upon non-arguable statistics, yet have an undefined factor.
Unless I'm missing something.
Apparently you will not let your opinions be influenced by facts. The # of putouts and assists that Jeter has is a fact. How much his hustle contibuted to them is irrelevant. They are what they are. >>
Stats are numbers, and numbers can be interpreted in different ways. Sometimes even thought to be precise mathematical models have proven to be wrong, although that is rare nowadays. Sports is definitely not a precise mathematical model...but it seems some here want to try to make it out that way. In my viewpoint, observation is a more reliable indicator of sports greatness and performance, especially in a team sport, than too much compulsive type microscopic analysis of stats. Some here can't see the forest for the trees. >>
Yeah, it is so good that you lost all your money gambling on them????? LOL.
Baseball HITTING is something that can be very preciesly measured by the results(and stats). Your opinons are worthless(especially yours SteveK). The objective analysis shows you wrong all the time. Hey, your hero Ryan Howard is a Choker by the way. >>
Debating you is like debating a parrot. A violent parrot at that. LOL
Yes, hitting can be precisely measured with stats, it's the interpretation of those stats is where you get confused. I'll take your word for it that you play the game, but you'd make a lousy manager. You'd make former Mets manager Willie Randolph look good. LOL
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks for the clarification but..
<< <i>but there is no need to define it >>
Just seems odd that your entire premise is based upon non-arguable statistics, yet have an undefined factor.
Unless I'm missing something.
Apparently you will not let your opinions be influenced by facts. The # of putouts and assists that Jeter has is a fact. How much his hustle contibuted to them is irrelevant. They are what they are. >>
Stats are numbers, and numbers can be interpreted in different ways. Sometimes even thought to be precise mathematical models have proven to be wrong, although that is rare nowadays. Sports is definitely not a precise mathematical model...but it seems some here want to try to make it out that way. In my viewpoint, observation is a more reliable indicator of sports greatness and performance, especially in a team sport, than too much compulsive type microscopic analysis of stats. Some here can't see the forest for the trees. >>
As Steve says, there isn't any emotion involved in this particular discussion.
You claim anything and everything on the baseball field can be attriubuted with a number. I ask for clarification and rather than showing how it's done, you refute it as irrelevant.
That would be an opinion, right? Thought statisitics remove biased opinions and show only facts.
Things that make you go hmmmmmm............
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks for the clarification but..
<< <i>but there is no need to define it >>
Just seems odd that your entire premise is based upon non-arguable statistics, yet have an undefined factor.
Unless I'm missing something.
Apparently you will not let your opinions be influenced by facts. The # of putouts and assists that Jeter has is a fact. How much his hustle contibuted to them is irrelevant. They are what they are. >>
Stats are numbers, and numbers can be interpreted in different ways. Sometimes even thought to be precise mathematical models have proven to be wrong, although that is rare nowadays. Sports is definitely not a precise mathematical model...but it seems some here want to try to make it out that way. In my viewpoint, observation is a more reliable indicator of sports greatness and performance, especially in a team sport, than too much compulsive type microscopic analysis of stats. Some here can't see the forest for the trees. >>
As Steve says, there isn't any emotion involved in this particular discussion.
You claim anything and everything on the baseball field can be attriubuted with a number. I ask for clarification and rather than showing how it's done, you refute it as irrelevant.
That would be an opinion, right? Thought statisitics remove biased opinions and show only facts.
Things that make you go hmmmmmm............ >>
You go your way and I'll go mine.
<< <i>You go your way and I'll go mine. >>
That's totally fine with me.
However, don't be surprised if this comes up again when you claim something to be undeniable fact and the matter has been completely settled.
For anyone to say that stats are completely irrelevant and that the only thing that matters are opinions, are wrong.
For anyone to say that stats are the be-all, end-all and the stats are the only things that matters would also be wrong.
IMHO, for enshrinement into the HOF, one must have great stats and high regard amongst the sports writers. No where will one find regard on a stats sheet.
<< <i>Under which stat should I look for leadership? Where do I go to find out who had the most 'hustle' in any given year. How does one find out who led the league in 'work ethic'. Some aspects of baseball are the intangibles and they can not be precisely measured.
For anyone to say that stats are completely irrelevant and that the only thing that matters are opinions, are wrong.
For anyone to say that stats are the be-all, end-all and the stats are the only things that matters would also be wrong.
IMHO, for enshrinement into the HOF, one must have great stats and high regard amongst the sports writers. No where will one find regard on a stats sheet. >>
I would actually agree for the most part with the stat worshippers here with an individual sport such as golf or tennis - the stats and winning are basically directly connected. Of course stats are pertinent to a team sport, but they cannot be precisely connected to winning or precisely connected to say clutch hitting for reasons you gave. There are situations where the best hitter on the team, may not be the best player to lay down a bunt in a crucial situation or deliver a key pinch hit if he is on the bench for some reason, and there are almost countless examples of things such as that which winning managers know and take advantage of such as say lesser talented players who have a knack for staying cool under pressure and delivering key hits...they make terrific pinch hitters. Frankly, it's somewhat hard to believe that the stat worshippers here can't or don't understand this basic concept in using the right players at the right time in the game to try to win ballgames.
I think Herb Brooks, an outstanding hockey coach, stated it very well when putting together the 1980 Olympic hockey team and he cut a few of the team's seemingly best players...he said, (paraphrase) "I'm not looking for the best players, I'm looking for the right players." Of course baseball is a different team sport than hockey, but the same concept applies in order to win as many ballgames as possible. If I had a choice would I rather have ARod on my team or a career 270 hitter? ARod of course. But if I had both players on my team, and this career 270 hitter displayed a knack for getting key base hits late in games, and I had a situation where I as a manager needed a key base hit and both players were available on the bench to pinch hit...I shout out, "270 player, grab a bat"...and all smart managers would make the exact same move - the stat worshippers don't seem to understand this.
You wouldn't last long as a manager making asinine decisiosn like that SteveK...and it doesn't take a "stat worshipper" to figure that out...and as any knowledgable Yankee fan knows, Arod routinely comes through in key situatiosn and late in games with clutch hits. If you don't realize that, you really don't have a clue about the guy and instead are content to base your entire assessment of him as a player on three series in 2005 through 2007..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>would I rather have ARod on my team or a career 270 hitter? ARod of course. But if I had both players on my team, and this career 270 hitter displayed a knack for getting key base hits late in games, and I had a situation where I as a manager needed a key base hit and both players were available on the bench to pinch hit...I shout out, "270 player, grab a bat"...and all smart managers would make the exact same move - the stat worshippers don't seem to understand this.
You wouldn't last long as a manager making asinine decisiosn like that SteveK...and it doesn't take a "stat worshipper" to figure that out...and as any knowledgable Yankee fan knows, Arod routinely comes through in key situatiosn and late in games with clutch hits. If you don't realize that, you really don't have a clue about the guy and instead are content to base your entire assessment of him as a player on three series in 2005 through 2007.. >>
You're a Mets fan, not a Yankees fan...case closed on that...besides, many, and I do mean many Yankees fans say the exact same thing about ARod that I said, which we have observed from watching him play.
I guess you must have thought Willie Randolph was a great manager. LOL
I dislike both the Phillies and Mets.
Now, back to the beating the dead HOF thread.