Flowing Hair Large Cent Questions UPDATED WITH PHOTOS

hiijacker

A family member asked me to help with a 1794 large cent piece. Grandpa send the piece to be graded back in the early 1990's to NGC. Iit was graded a MS62.

2 questions. Were the grading standard back then tighter? I am not familiar with the series, but the coin looked amazing to me.

Also, how would I go about researching the die state? As I see the prices vary based on this attribute.

Sunnywood

The question isn't so much the die state, but rather the die variety. All the dies back then were handmade, and each one was different. So the question is, which die pairing was used to strike the coin? The different die pairings were catalogued by William Sheldon (among others) and therefore the various die varieties of early large cents are known by their "Sheldon numbers." For example, you might see designations like S-22, S-32, etc. sometimes also written Sheldon-22, Sheldon-32, etc. There are any number of resources and references that show images of the 1794 large cents and identify all the die varieties (Sheldon numbers). If you post pics of the obverse and reverse, one of us can tell you the Sheldon number. Some of the rarer varieties will carry a significant premium. Ultimately, any 1794 cent that is an attractive, problem-free unc will be of great interest.

Incidentally, this is the same Sheldon who developed the 60-point grading system that is still in widespread use today.

Sunnywood

hiijacker

I just took some pictures.

LoveMyLiberty

Looks to be a very nice S-58. Can you see any die cracks?
If so where exactly. This is a R.3 I believe.
Can't comment on the grading standards of the past.

Walkerguy21D

Wow - nice coin! It could be a bit undergraded by today's standards, may be a 63 (by TPG standards). It's worth big bucks regardless, and maybe more so if it is rare Sheldon variety. The cents of '94 are VERY popular, and this coin is probably in the condition census (or will be, if presently unknown to the copper community) even among the common varieties.
Any more info on it? Where and when he acquired it, etc.?

coinguy1

That looks like a nice example.

Frankly, it doesn't matter what the overall standards were at the time the coin was graded - what matters is the grading of that specific coin. And if I owned it, I would leave it in its current holder, even if I thought it might up-grade to MS63.

If it looks under-graded, bidders in an auction are likely to bid it up to an appropriate premium, anyway. If you re-submit it and it doesn't up-grade you have lost the allure of the older holder. Along with that, potential buyers might not have the comfort that the coin has apparently remained stable and not been messed with for a long period of time.

LoveMyLiberty

If this is the correct variety, one like it, an S-58, sold in the Husak collection Here
for $9,200 in a PCGS XF-45 slab.
In this auction they stated the finest known for the variety was an AU-55. Your coin is valuable!

Did you happen to notice the die gouge at liberty's nose? Could you describe that.
Did anyone look at the edge prior to it being in a slab?
Although your images are nice, could you take some with better lighting, more focus and
from a straight on position please.

hiijacker

<< <i>If this is the correct variety, one like it, an S-58, sold in the Husak collection Here
for $9,200 in a PCGS XF-45 slab.
In this auction they stated the finest known for the variety was an AU-55. Your coin is valuable!

Did you happen to notice the die gouge at liberty's nose? Could you describe that.
Did anyone look at the edge prior to it being in a slab?
Although your images are nice, could you take some with better lighting, more focus and
from a straight on position please. >>




It is back in the vault. But I will try to take more pictures next week. But I do recall that due gouge at liberty's nose. So,if this is an S-58, shouldn't the S-58 sold in the Husak collection also have that die gouge?

LoveMyLiberty

<< <i>

<< <i>If this is the correct variety, one like it, an S-58, sold in the Husak collection Here
for $9,200 in a PCGS XF-45 slab.
In this auction they stated the finest known for the variety was an AU-55. Your coin is valuable!

Did you happen to notice the die gouge at liberty's nose? Could you describe that.
Did anyone look at the edge prior to it being in a slab?
Although your images are nice, could you take some with better lighting, more focus and
from a straight on position please. >>




It is back in the vault. But I will try to take more pictures next week. But I do recall that due gouge at liberty's nose. So,if this is an S-58, shouldn't the S-58 sold in the Husak collection also have that die gouge? >>



From your pictures I can't make out what that is at the nose. It could be a die gouge, a die crack, a planchet defect, clash mark, PMD, a bad sinus infection, etc.
That's why I requested you look at it & describe it as best you can.

Here's a comparison of the Husak coin with yours. Judge for yourself.

MidLifeCrisis

<< <i>That looks like a nice example.

Frankly, it doesn't matter what the overall standards were at the time the coin was graded - what matters is the grading of that specific coin. And if I owned it, I would leave it in its current holder, even if I thought it might up-grade to MS63.

If it looks under-graded, bidders in an auction are likely to bid it up to an appropriate premium, anyway. If you re-submit it and it doesn't up-grade you have lost the allure of the older holder. Along with that, potential buyers might not have the comfort that the coin has apparently remained stable and not been messed with for a long period of time. >>


Although Mark presents some excellent points - and I'm a big fan of older slabs for copper - I think you should consider sending the coin to PCGS for crossover. Send it in the NGC slab. Ask for variety attribution and Tru View pictures. This puts it in a PCGS slab with the corresponding expected increase in sale-ability and premium; you have the confidence in knowing that it has been stable in the old holder to this point; you get the variety assigned by experts; and you get pictures to share with your family while the coin is secure in the vault.

The only downside is the recent change and elimination of a guarantee for copper coins by PCGS.

notwilight

Awesome coin. About the only thing I can add is that it is a liberty cap cent, not a flowing hair, not that I'm picky but want to save you some confusion in the future. 1793 is the only real flowing hair cent.

I agree it is S-58 and Walter Husak would have loved to have that coin in his collection.

--Jerry

BigMoose

Agree with LoveMyLiberty. This looks like a very nice example of S-58. Looks to be a very nice high end EAC AU, and as such, should be pushing the Condition Census for finest known or very near finest known. Wonderful looking 1794 example of a variety that doesn't often come nice.

joecopper

That is a heckuva coin - got to be pushing upperr CC's

LoveMyLiberty

Hiijacker ,,, check your PM's

AnkurJ

WOW

BillJones

This large cent is very nice, but I don't think that the EAC graders would call it Mint State. There appears to be some rub on the highest points of the obverse. I would say that the EAC grade would be in the AU-50 to 55. Having said that, that grade would not proclude an MS level price for it. As for the condition census I'll have to wait until I have access to my library.

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>That looks like a nice example.

Frankly, it doesn't matter what the overall standards were at the time the coin was graded - what matters is the grading of that specific coin. And if I owned it, I would leave it in its current holder, even if I thought it might up-grade to MS63.

If it looks under-graded, bidders in an auction are likely to bid it up to an appropriate premium, anyway. If you re-submit it and it doesn't up-grade you have lost the allure of the older holder. Along with that, potential buyers might not have the comfort that the coin has apparently remained stable and not been messed with for a long period of time. >>



I totally agree with all of this and would absolutely not recommend removing that coin from its current holder.

Billet7

Great coin, WOW.


Is there anyway PCGS would consider grading the coin in the holder, a PCGS graded NGC 1794 if you will?


I would probably leave it in the holder and send it to CAC for a gold sticker (if there is potential for upgrade.) It is so valuable to have copper in old holders, it gives strong evidence for stability and originality. (And this comes from a die-hard PCGS fan.)

Justacommeman

I would leave it the current holder and Grandpappy did great! Helluva coin. MJ

hiijacker

Here are some new photos.

RTS

Nice.

LoveMyLiberty

Wow, that's beautiful !! Again, what's that at the nose, or upper lip?
Has anyone with knowledge of early large cents had a chance to look
at it in person yet?

hiijacker

<< <i>Wow, that's beautiful !! Again, what's that at the nose, or upper lip?
Has anyone with knowledge of early large cents had a chance to look
at it in person yet? >>



Hard to describe, but whatever is at the upper lip, it looks mint made. I haven't shown it to anyone yet. I guess I will wait to show it an expert at the next big show in Chicago.

AuroraBorealis

Awesome coin...What a treasure!

AB

rays

And now we see this very coin as lot 3006 in the Heritage signature sale thursday night.

keyman64

WOWZERS!

coinkid855

Dang...He already got one hell of a price. Lol



-Paul

illini420

The video 360 degree views they do are really neat. Wish they had those for all of the coins in the auction!

messydesk

I find the "not in 200 years" assertion made by the cataloger a bit hard to swallow, especially given it's in plastic much newer than that. Perhaps it merely evaded the Exceedingly Prominent and Important Specialists and lived in a collection anonymously like many great coins do.

The 360 view does nothing for this coin. All but about 60 degrees of the rotation looks nearly black.

Congratulations to follow at hammer.

oakcoin

nice job to the person who found the coin and then this thread. Real neat

AnkurJ

I was watching this coin. But its already gone beyond what I would bid.

jmski52

Looks like a great coin to me! What was the hammer price?

rays

<< <i>Looks like a great coin to me! What was the hammer price? >>



It is currently bid at $29,900 but the auction is thursday night (9/8/11).

Billet7

Wish my uncle had that kind of taste...WOWZERS!!!

ModCrewman

<< <i>This large cent is very nice, but I don't think that the EAC graders would call it Mint State. There appears to be some rub on the highest points of the obverse. I would say that the EAC grade would be in the AU-50 to 55. Having said that, that grade would not proclude an MS level price for it. As for the condition census I'll have to wait until I have access to my library. >>

I see it now has a green bean...does this put the grade discussion to rest, or do you still believe it's likely that the EAC grade would be lower than the MS62 on the slab?

DAM

$60,000 not including the vig.

Congrats!

keyman64

$69,000!

AnkurJ

Anyone see the AU55 Wreath cent that went for $93k??? I think thats a record! Early copper went nuts in this auction.

MikeInFL

That's a superb coin that's worth just as much money in the holder as outside of it, IMO. To Bill's point above (that it's an AU coin to EAC), the same can be said for 99% of coins in 63 and below slabs.

rays

<< <i>Anyone see the AU55 Wreath cent that went for $93k??? I think thats a record! Early copper went nuts in this auction. >>



The Eliasberg lettered edge wreath cent is a fantastic coin, but even so I was surprised it brought so much.

The S-58 brought $69K all in. It seemed it was bought by the consignor of the date set (Copperhead collection), who specializes in 1794's.