Goldberg Auction of the Dan Holmes Middle Date Large Cents

Walkerguy21D

is underway.....prices look quite strong for middle date large cents. Even 'average' pieces are going for 2X the estimates, and the nicer stuff is bringing the moon money. The floor bidders are blowing away the lowly bids placed by us internet bidders.

Walkerguy21D

This is the first Goldberg auction I've participated in, so I wasn't sure what to expect. The starting bids pre-auction were all ~half of the estimates - but it like you said, it appears the estimates were pretty lowball compared the what the lots are hammering at. Fun to watch, and my money safe, but I probably won't be upgrading much in my set

Bear

The story of my collecting life. What I do not collect gets runaway bids,

while what I do collect begs for bids. Such is life................................

Broadstruck

<< <i>The floor bidders are blowing away the lowly bids placed by us internet bidders. >>



Guess Dealers want more Holmes / Naftzger cents in their Collections... Oops meant Inventory!

Bear

Their only pennies for goodness sake. Big pennies perhaps,

but still pennies.

Bear

I don't. I only collect quarters and bigger.

DMWJR

<< <i>I don't. I only collect quarters and bigger. >>



Are large cents bigger than quarters?

Analyst

RealOne <<t seems like Goldbergs purposely puts in meaningless lowball estimates that they know are ridiculous and unrealistic in for the reason I guess to generate more bids. I guess bidders will view the low estimates and think, cool there is a firesale going on here and the bidding goes wild, and like every time I have followed their auctions the final numbers blow their original estimates away, but no one seems to mind.>>

I have covered coin auctions and other kinds of auctions for many years. In almost all circumstances, it does not make sense to rely upon auction house estimates. If you are planning to bid, it is best to enlist an expert to advise you. Many bidders develop a friendly business relationship with an official at one or more auction houses, and often an honest auction firm associate will be willing to voice opinions that are sometimes inconsistent with the cataloguing of his own firm. My suggestion, though, is that it is generally a good idea to seek counsel from an expert who is neither an employee nor a shareholder of any auction company.

Note that I am above commenting in general about auctions.

As for the Holmes sales, Bob Grellman is an excellent cataloguer and he often reveals multiple opinions regarding the grades of specific coins. Further, I believe that Chris McCawley formulated the estimates, not the Goldbergs. Chris is personable. Contact information may be found at his website, earlycents.com. Before publicly criticizing McCawley’s estimates, it may have been (and could still be) a good idea to ask Chris for an explanation.

I have already written a little bit about the Holmes ‘Middle Date’ sale in the second installment of my weekly column. I will probably write more about the sale. Bidders are welcome to contact me to provide information that may be suitable for publication or ‘off the record.’

Coin Rarities & Related Topics #1

Coin Rarities #2: LA Auctions, PCGS SecurePlus

Naftzger’s Middle Dates, Part 1

Naftzger’s Middle Dates, Part 2

Naftzger’s Middle Dates, Part 3

Naftzger’s Middle Dates, Part 4

notwilight

Dang. I've had the catalog with marked lots on my desk for a month. But I put the "Pre-Long Beach" catalog on top of it and kept glancing at the May 31 date on it and I got it in my head that the sale was tomorrow. By the time I saw this thread and went there, all my lots were gone. There were a couple dozen lots left but they were not that interesting to me and the lower priced coins seemed to be bid very high by bidders who may had been shut out on earlier lots...

So did anyone win anything good?

--Jerry

rays

<< <i>Dang. I've had the catalog with marked lots on my desk for a month. But I put the "Pre-Long Beach" catalog on top of it and kept glancing at the May 31 date on it and I got it in my head that the sale was tomorrow. By the time I saw this thread and went there, all my lots were gone. There were a couple dozen lots left but they were not that interesting to me and the lower priced coins seemed to be bid very high by bidders who may had been shut out on earlier lots...

So did anyone win anything good?

--Jerry >>



I won lot 540, the 1839/6 overdate in PCGS 45. Seeing how lots 538 and 539 sold for less I wonder if I overpaid.

Walkerguy21D

Analyst/Greg - excellent article you linked. I agree with many of your observations, and learned about a number of others, and look forward to your next column.
Two things I would like to debate though - do you really think there are 25,000 date collectors of large cents? That seems high to me.
Also, re: the 39/6, paraphrased here:
"Yes, the 1823/2 and 1839/6 are overdates. It could be argued that, as overdates, these are not truly distinct dates. The 1823/2 overdate is a more blatant than the 1839/6 overdate. It is typical for the 1839/6 to be granted, by collectors and by the editors of price guides, the status of a distinct date."
I think the real attraction of the 39/6 is that it is a distinct TYPE - that Kneass design/die set had been retired since 1836, and was resurrected for a short run in 1839, after they had adopted the newer designs influenced by Gobrecht. It is quite different than the other cents of '39, and to me a lot more interesting than the 23/2.

Speaking of 39/6 - Rays - that is MONSTER coin you just acquired! I would not be concerned with paying too much for it - that is a coin that has been in strong demand for many decades, and there will always be buyer lined up for it. I'm just hoping to get a nice Fine someday.....

coinguy1

<< <i>It seems like Goldbergs purposely puts in meaningless lowball estimates that they know are ridiculous and unrealistic in for the reason I guess to generate more bids. I guess bidders will view the low estimates and think, cool there is a firesale going on here and the bidding goes wild, and like every time I have followed their auctions the final numbers blow their original estimates away, but no one seems to mind. >>

In addition to generating more interest and bids, low estimates allow an auction house to proclaim how strong a sale was. For example, "The total prices realized were X % over pre-sale estimates."

It should be noted, however, that some consignors do not like low estimates on their lots, and campaign for, or even insist upon high ones. And, if a lot has a high reserve, it pretty much precludes a low-ball estimate, so low estimates are usually confined to lots with low (or no) reserves.

BillJones

<< <i>The story of my collecting life. What I do not collect gets runaway bids,

while what I do collect begs for bids. Such is life................................ >>



Actually the high prices have more to do with the fact that the collector in question has legendary status within a strong collectors' organization combined with the high quality (I presume because the early date collection, which I did see featured "simply super" quality.) of the material. Add to that the fact that most all of the conventional price guides are hopelessly low for high grade or rare variety copper, and you have astonishingly high prices realized. My own limited experience with the Goldberg auctions is that they tend to low ball their estimates.

Walkerguy21D

Having just reviewed the rest of the auction results, it appears that later in the sale many of the prices realized were in line with the presale estimates. Maybe many of the bidders were running low on funds by that time, or there is just less demand in general for the later-middle dates, as more high quality coins exist?

RTS

Wonderful coins.

joecopper

I was bidding on six 1816's but do not know how I did - I got at least two as my top bid well above sale price two right at my bid and two over my bid but had instructions to stretch some - should know this evening. I was waay so have no idea how the rest of the sale went.

Waltz

Bought a 1902 Indian Cent PCGS Proof 66 Cameo for the auction. Paid $4,400. Estimate was $4,500 to $5,000. I am noting quite a bit of large cent material in the market over the past year or so (corresponding with less Indian Cent in high grade). It's impossible for me to say that the auction is higher/lower than expectations since I had no expectations going into the auction.

Dan Holmes probably has an opinion on the matter right about now, however....

1798CentCollector

I attended the auction, along with a notable cadre of the usual suspects......eager dealers, persons of great copper notoriety.......like John Wright and his lovely wife Mabel, Jack Robinson, and several very serious middle date specialists. In general the prices were very strong in relation to the generally accepted retail copper pricing guide (Jack Robinson's CQR) and other recent previously realized auction prices, (like the 2005 Heritage Rasmussen sale prices, where many of Dan's high grade cents were acquired). As expected, there was significant interest in high grade and beautifully colored cents ( several collectors are putting together color sets and looking for top beautiful tier cents), rare and hard-to-find varieties, and even great pedigrees accompanied by loads prior auction flips and old pillboxes (Newcomb, et al).... ....all items cherished by copper enthusiasts. The Holmes collection also contained plenty of material for die state enthusiasts. There were a few notable "bargains" like the 1834 N-7 (lot 398), but certainly not as many as I had initially expected. The middle dates have not been as "hot" as they were in the '90s when there were many more significant middle date collections being formed/sold. Although the results in this auction at least temporarily dispelling that notion in my mind. The middle dates seem to be finding some stronger support.

Dan had some great coins for both quality/color enthusiasts and die state enthusiasts, which could not be had easily, or at all, otherwise. He also had many examples of affordable collector grade coins. As was with the early date sale, this was an "event" and inevitably higher prices ensued. The sale realized a little over $1,000,000. The specially bound catalog (lot 564) realized $4,000 (hammer). The were a good number of lots that sold to the web sites. Personally, I won very little in relation to what I had planned. However, the opportunity to attend the sale and spend some more time with Dan Holmes was much more rewarding than bringing home any copper. The Goldberg's put on a class event, hosting a dinner at Morton's Steakhouse in Dan's honor the evening prior to the sale. Whatever the opinions may be about the pre-sale estimates ( which I personally totally disregard, except maybe for unusual die states) Bob Grellmen provided excellent cataloging. Lyle at Goldbergs added to that with some superb photography.

jmski52

It would be very cool to attend one of these types of copper auctions sometime, even if just to gawk at the coins.

Photoguy

Thank you 1798CentCollector

CoinRaritiesOnline

<< <i>Thank you 1798CentCollector >>



Lyle, that catalog has my vote for the finest numismatic catalog of all time.

I'm completely serious.

It is a work of art.