How do you know that your new "+" coin isn't really, in effect, a "minus"?
coinguy1
Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
Submitters are understandably excited about receiving "+" grades on recent submissions at PCGS, with the same scenario expected to follow soon at NGC.
But if/when you receive a "+", how do you know you wouldn't have received the next grade up under the old system? No matter what your answer, my suggestion is the same now as it always has been - look at and focus on the coin.
But if/when you receive a "+", how do you know you wouldn't have received the next grade up under the old system? No matter what your answer, my suggestion is the same now as it always has been - look at and focus on the coin.
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Comments
(gulp)...guess I never thought of that.
I have had (4) coins go up a full point on secure plus in my last 60 submissions in May.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Simple answer ... because you can not only get the +, but also the next grade up and even the next grade up with a +.
I have had (4) coins go up a full point on secure plus in my last 60 submissions in May.
Wondercoin >>
Mitch, presumably those 4 coins went up a full point but did not receive a plus. I am talking about coins that receive a plus.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Mine (4) coins went up a point, but a collector just reported here getting a full point AND the + as well on his secure plus submission - essentially 1 1/2 points up on his secure plus submission.
Wondercoin >>
But perhaps that coin would have jumped 2 full points before the + was an available option??
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
But, I will happily take a full point up on the coins I am submitting anytime!! For that matter, just the + makes my day!!
Wondercoin
coinguy1.....see what you done started, brother?
<< <i>Hey, if we are talking about possibilities, it could have jumped 3 points for that matter.... Anyone can hypothesize anything - right?
But, I will happily take a full point up on the coins I am submitting anytime!! For that matter, just the + makes my day!!
Wondercoin >>
Mitch, let's talk possibilities, but ones that don't require nearly the stretch that a 3 point up-grade would. If you submit or resubmit a coin of grade X and it comes back X+ (not X+1 or higher), presumably you have an extremely nice/high quality coin for the grade. Grading being what it is, based on the odds, I think it stands to reason that under the old system, some such coins would/could have been graded higher. What percentage, I obviously don't know. But I think submitters should at least consider the possibility, and not quickly/automatically rejoice at receiving a plus. That's all I'm trying to convey here.
<< <i>Such sacrilege ! Burn the heretic !
Don't burn Mark... that would be cruel. Come on, the man finds 50F to be a scorcher.
Wondercoin
I thought having fun in this hobby was what it's all about.
<< <i>If I was worried about getting a plus and not an upgrade, and might not like that system....... I believe I can still submit on the "old" system. If folks want to be excited they got a plus, so be it.
I thought having fun in this hobby was what it's all about. >>
You know it's not all about "having fun in this hobby". But that it's also about the grades and the money, for many collectors, not just dealers. Many of the threads here put an exclamation on that point.
I know a number of collectors (myself included) having great FUN getting their + coins back and seeing that they now have a pop 1/0 coin!
Unfortunately, I need to "get back to work" in a few minutes so I can't "play" here any more
Wondercoin
or it might grade that
and has been said alot here lately -
until this and that can be consistently stated , it is (and always will be) the coin inside the holder that's real ,
not the opinion rendered on it
<< <i> If you submit or resubmit a coin of grade X and it comes back X+ (not X+1 or higher), presumably you have an extremely nice/high quality coin for the grade. Grading being what it is, based on the odds, I think it stands to reason that under the old system, some such coins would/could have been graded higher. What percentage, I obviously don't know. But I think submitters should at least consider the possibility, and not quickly/automatically rejoice at receiving a plus. That's all I'm trying to convey here. >>
From what I know about this he uncertainty of determining grades has not changed, e.g. "the old system" is the same as "the new system". So the likely hood of going up a full grade is still the same. in addition, you now also can get the +.
What the new system does do, is only give you one shot at this, next time around the coin will be recognized by the secure plus system, and presumably PCGS will just give you the same grade you got the last time ( with maybe a review to see if there is a material change or error0.
In the end I think it boils down to the new precise method is more fair to the actual grade? Like with anything else you have to assume PCGS/NGC will adhere to its own standards.
<< <i>Submitters are understandably excited about receiving "+" grades on recent submissions at PCGS, with the same scenario expected to follow soon at NGC.
But if/when you receive a "+", how do you know you wouldn't have received the next grade up under the old system? No matter what your answer, my suggestion is the same now as it always has been - look at and focus on the coin.
So a '+' might really be a consolation prize?
What will TPGs (and former graders) think of next?
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>If I ever get a + I'll do the best I can to cope with my grief. >>
Your sarcasm aside, what if you thought the coin would/should grade higher?
<< <i>Simple answer ... because you can not only get the +, but also the next grade up and even the next grade up with a +.
I have had (4) coins go up a full point on secure plus in my last 60 submissions in May.
Wondercoin >>
Sixty submissions? In May? I guess I see where the money to be made is.
This would not surprise me, esp on moderns in the 64-67 range as well as classics in the 55 to 62 range.
If the above results were not on older slabs, then it would seem the same problem of inconsistency between discrete MS/PF grade points is still out there.
I recall an NGC MS seated half I bought raw out of action a couple of years back. I graded the coin MS 66++ and was quite dejected when it came back NGC MS65. I had paid 66+ money for the coin. Achieving a secure 65+ on this would not helped any. In fact that entire submission was about a point lower than I was expecting. I sent the entire group back and most all went up 1 pt....the seated half went up 2 points to MS67.
roadrunner
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>I guess you can spin it any way you want, Mark. >>
Matt, I don't want to spin it in any way. As I mentioned previously, 1) "my suggestion is the same now as it always has been - look at and focus on the coin". And 2) "I think submitters should at least consider the possibility (that the coin might have graded higher under the old system), and not quickly/automatically rejoice at receiving a plus. That's all I'm trying to convey here". Do you disagree with either or both of those thoughts?
<< <i>
<< <i>If I ever get a + I'll do the best I can to cope with my grief. >>
Your sarcasm aside, what if you thought the coin would/should grade higher? >>
Mark: My sarcasm is genuine because I believe the topic is nothing more than philosophical calisthenics... an exercise in semantics and hair-splitting that is along the lines of, "is a glass half full or half empty?" I've sent many coins into PCGS that I though would/should/could grade higher. That most of them didn't was nothing more than a slight disappointment which affected my life not at all and passed by almost immediately. Instead, I regarded them as simply more classroom time in my never-ending education in coin grading. That's all.
Are you trying to rain on our parade?
We understand the concern you are expressing. Results would indicate we are doing a pretty decent job - as a couple responders have indicated.
I personally have seen coins get a +, a full grade, and a full grade and a + on a regrade submission.
Our objective is to give every coin the highest grade it deserves.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If I ever get a + I'll do the best I can to cope with my grief. >>
Your sarcasm aside, what if you thought the coin would/should grade higher? >>
Mark: My sarcasm is genuine because I believe the topic is nothing more than philosophical calisthenics... an exercise in semantics and hair-splitting that is along the lines of, "is a glass half full or half empty?" I've sent many coins into PCGS that I though would/should/could grade higher. That most of them didn't was nothing more than a slight disappointment which affected my life not at all and passed by almost immediately. Instead, I regarded them as simply more classroom time in my never-ending education in coin grading. That's all. >>
Dennis, it sounds as if you are far less affected by grade results than many or most other collectors I hear from or about. I believe that for a good number of them, the considerations I have put forth are anything but "philosophical calisthenics... an exercise in semantics and hair-splitting that is along the lines of, "is a glass half full or half empty?" And that's whether they are aware of it or not.
<< <i>Mark,
Are you trying to rain on our parade?
We understand the concern you are expressing. Results would indicate we are doing a pretty decent job - as a couple responders have indicated.
I personally have seen coins get a +, a full grade, and a full grade and a + on a regrade submission.
Our objective is to give every coin the highest grade it deserves. >>
Not at all, Don. I haven't submitted any coins under the new system, so have no results to go by. Accordingly, I have no opinion, one way or the other and am entirely neutral on the subject. But it's still fair to advise people to continue to focus on the coins, right?
<< <i>
<< <i>I guess you can spin it any way you want, Mark. >>
Matt, I don't want to spin it in any way. As I mentioned previously, 1) "my suggestion is the same now as it always has been - look at and focus on the coin". And 2) "I think submitters should at least consider the possibility (that the coin might have graded higher under the old system), and not quickly/automatically rejoice at receiving a plus. That's all I'm trying to convey here". Do you disagree with either or both of those thoughts? >>
I'm saying that we all know who's playing the Devil's Advocate here... not that there's anything wrong with that.
As far as my three plusses go, as far as I'm concerned, they didn't get the full point upgrade under the old system. They were just PQ for the grade. Also, now that I'm seeing what goes plus and what doesn't (in terms of what I either own now or did in the past) I'm seeing opportunities everywhere to turn a buck. If you know what to look for, I think you could do pretty well just walking the bourse floor.
Empty Nest Collection
My recent (+) certification was awarded to a coin I had
previously submitted TWICE for regrade...and not getting
the upgrade, of course. I still believed it PQ for the grade,
and I now feel vindicated, somewhat, with the (+)...
Just sayin'
<< <i>
My recent (+) certification was awarded to a coin I had
previously submitted TWICE for regrade...and not getting
the upgrade, of course. I still believed it PQ for the grade,
and I now feel vindicated, somewhat, with the (+)...
Just sayin' >>
And yet another nail has been driven into my (devil's advocate) coffin
......that statement damn near brought me to tears ,
God Bless PCGS
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The - issue is simple- if you are not satisfied with the grade- resubmit and see what happens.
On a side note, grading remains subjective- it is a science that has factors that do not translate well into exact numbers because of the totality of what is at stake. Coins are coins and numbers are numbers and this is not figure skating... can we enjoy coins?
I really do not think that is too much to ask.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Good point Mark, very good point. I have actually wondered a similar scenario when it comes to the "Genuine" designation. How many coins that have received the Genuine label since it was created would have actually been given an assigned grade before? Especially the toners that are either perfectly legit or at the very least, "market acceptible".
I've asked a couple of fairly large dealer submitters what they thought of the coins that they were getting back in "genuine" holders, and whether they thought some of them would have received grades previously. The guys I talked to seemed pleased with the service, and did not sound as if they thought they were getting penalized by the "genuine" option.
Hmmmm, might have something there!
bob
In my particular case, a very high % of the coins I submitted thus far under secure+ grading are coins I thought warranted a full point upgrade at least. Why would I only want to send coins that did not warrant a full point upgrade? There is obviously a cost associated with these submissions - I want to maximize my grading results.
Seriously, the question here is essentially how do I know that my + grading results are not really a "minus" in reality. First, one can not prove what might have happened had one did something they ended up not doing. One can take a best guess of course, but that is about it. Second, one can look at the actual return on the submissions they did through Secure +. This is concrete analysis that can result in concrete results. On this analysis, I frankly am very pleased. I believe the increased value to my various collections has far outweighed the cost of the grading thus far. As a result of my personal experience, I am selling an important (and quite valuable) collection for a customer as well this month and I would not have dreamed of letting a single coin sell from the set without sending EVERY coin through for secure plus first.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Our objective is to give every coin the highest grade it deserves. >>
Please forgive a YN question, but shouldn’t the above statement been your company’s objective since it started? How does the secure plus program change or improve this?
I’m glad that some people are getting higher grades on re-grades but if the coin gets a whole grade better then it had achieved before, does that mean that a mistake was made by the graders the first time around?
I don’t want to highjack Mr. Feld’s thread but I do have a couple of questions maybe some one could answer of send a PM.
1) Mr. Hall stated a while ago, the graders started grading coins using a third number, i.e. 64.3, 64.8, 65.1 etc. Why does it matter which tier / level the coin is submitted on, if the average third number is a 7-9 shouldn’t it get the + symbol anyway? The coin is what the coin is and isn’t consistency what PCGS wants?
2) Scanning the coin, or mapping its’ surfaces sounds like a great idea, if it can be proven to being reliable. I mean, will the courts accept the determination of the mapping to the exclusion of all others. If so, this would be a wonderful thing for collectors that have their collections stolen / loss and might aid in the recovery. It is a shame that this isn’t being offered for all submissions, again, I mean what a great costumer service this would have been. Even if PCGS would raise the submission fees by a couple of bucks per coin to cover the cost of the mapping and storage of the data, it would be well worth the “piece of mind” it would give to the collectors. I believe Mr. Hall said that it took about half a minute to scan both sides of the coin, so it isn’t that labor intensive.
Just wondering aloud
While I think it's impossible for submitters/owners of coins to be entirely objective, you seem about as unbiased and level headed in your assessments as anyone I know. And if you feel that you got pluses on coins that wouldn't have graded higher the old way, and are happy with the results, that says a lot.
shouldn’t the above statement been your company’s objective since it started - it has been. Secure Plus has nothing to do with it.
Why does it matter which tier / level the coin is submitted on - because we are running a business and there must be a balance between cost and revenue.
what a great costumer service this would have been ?? you mean what a great customer service IT IS.
it took about half a minute to scan both sides of the coin - there is a lot more to Secure Plus than how long it takes the machine to process the coin.
Basically what you are saying is you like this new service, you just don't want to send your coins in throught the current services, ie, costs.
I still believe a few (repeat just a "few") of my coins might be deserving of another half a point and I may well send them through once again (DH has described this as the "ownership factor"). Unless I misread what Don stated, it appears he has acknowledged that at least one secure plus has regraded positively thus far the second time through. Even if I did misread that, I will "invest" those grading fees on showing PCGS one more time my very most deserving coins. I never got everything I wanted the "old way", why would I expect to get everything I wanted the new way? I wanted to mention this, because I did not want to give a misleading characterization that I am pleased with EVERY coin I have ever submitted through secure plus (or any other method of submission).
But, collectors reading this thread can take this much from it....
I would not permit an important collection to be sold without going through secure+ first. And, it was entirely "my call" on that decision. We also know that "Mr. Simpson" had his incredible sets sent through secure plus (and check out his results!)- doesn't that speak volumes in itself? Simply put, for those out there that entirely discount the significance of using secure plus (AND OF COURSE COINGUY1 IS NOT ONE OF THEM), you may be going against the conventional wisdom of some very experienced numismatic strategists.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Not just newbies, either.