How much work can be done to a coin before it is no longer "genuine"?
IGWT
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Alltheabove76's thread here, along with the pix of his fix below, got me wondering: How much work can be done to a coin before it is no longer an authentic mint product? Before you say that a coin is authentic no matter how much it has been altered so long as it comes from the mint, think about altered dates. An altered date makes a coin "not genuine," even if the mint made the piece that was altered. Why should a coin with dramatic changes to the devices or fields be treated differently than a coin with an altered date?
Was ATA76's Gobrecht "no decisioned" because the graders really couldn't determine it's authenticity; or, instead, was the piece altered to the point that it could no longer be considered authentic even though the graders knew that it started life as a real Gobrecht?
Was ATA76's Gobrecht "no decisioned" because the graders really couldn't determine it's authenticity; or, instead, was the piece altered to the point that it could no longer be considered authentic even though the graders knew that it started life as a real Gobrecht?
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Yes it's a nice historical piece but the fact remains that it had been unmercifully damaged.
It should have been left as is and I think PCGS refunded the money because it was obvious the coin had been repaired and they simply did not want to have anything to do with anything on the submission.
Given the locked thread, I'll be surprised if the OP's submission priviledges aren't revoked.
The name is LEE!
Even if they could determine this particular piece is genuine (which given the amount of work this one has had is certainly no slam), they may have simply decided that having dramatically repaired / altered coins in their holders was not good for the brand. In which case they would simply decline to grade it (i.e. no decision).
<< <i>I don't believe PCGS is obligated to place every genuine coin submitted to them in one of their holders.
Even if they could determine this particular piece is genuine (which given the amount of work this one has had is certainly no slam), they may have simply decided that having dramatically repaired / altered coins in their holders was not good for the brand. In which case they would simply decline to grade it (i.e. no decision). >>
<< <i>I don't believe PCGS is obligated to place every genuine coin submitted to them in one of their holders.
Even if they could determine this particular piece is genuine (which given the amount of work this one has had is certainly no slam), they may have simply decided that having dramatically repaired / altered coins in their holders was not good for the brand. In which case they would simply decline to grade it (i.e. no decision). >>
I think the OP in the other thread would have been better off sending it in for a Genuine holder without being repaired first.
EAC 6024
Let's be clear who the OP is and isn't.
And that point seems to have been missed by many.
<< <i>I think the OP would have been better off sending it in for a Genuine holder without being tooled first.
Let's be clear who the OP is and isn't.
Whoops...lookin through these rolls of bank box Lincolns got me all loopy.
that being said, PCGS has the right not to holder the coin if they desire
www.brunkauctions.com
My Early Large Cents
This thread is a different discussion. We don't need two locked threads. What is your opinion on the question posed?
<< <i>I don't believe PCGS is obligated to place every genuine coin submitted to them in one of their holders.
Even if they could determine this particular piece is genuine (which given the amount of work this one has had is certainly no slam), they may have simply decided that having dramatically repaired / altered coins in their holders was not good for the brand. In which case they would simply decline to grade it (i.e. no decision). >>
Very well said. I am completely fine with PCGS slabbing problem coins, to a point. I can see a holed and plugged coin being graded, or a dinged coin, or a cleaned coin. However a drastically repaired coin? Nope, I don't think that those should be in holders.
<< <i>Alltheabove76's thread here, along with the pix of his fix below, got me wondering: How much work can be done to a coin before it is no longer an authentic mint product? Before you say that a coin is authentic no matter how much it has been altered so long as it comes from the mint, think about altered dates. An altered date makes a coin "not genuine," even if the mint made the piece that was altered. Why should a coin with dramatic changes to the devices or fields be treated differently than a coin with an altered date?
Was ATA76's Gobrecht "no decisioned" because the graders really couldn't determine it's authenticity; or, instead, was the piece altered to the point that it could no longer be considered authentic even though the graders knew that it started life as a real Gobrecht?
Your first mistake in your stream of logic is stating that an altered date coin is "not genuine". It is still a genuine coin, just not from the date/MM it appears to have. That doen't mean that PCGS has to slab it, though.
use the Gobrecht design (front and back) on a new dollar coin.
<< <i>I believe as long as a coin can be determined to be a Mint product, and the date can be determined as well, it should be slabbed. Otherwise they're starting down a very slippery slope (which in the long term will have a greater impact on their reputation). >>
I and/or others might think of noteworthy exceptions, in which case I might want to change my mind. But for now, I think I agree with that.
<< <i>Personally I think such repaired/restored coins like the pictured Gobrecht dollar serve numismatics very little >>
It would look great on a key chain!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
The chopped trades are a different story, what if the chops are not real? Then the coin is not a genuine "chop" dollar
My Early Large Cents
Not Again! I just finished reading the locked thread!
I mean, it's now only a % genuine.
In my misguided years as a coin collector, numismatist or whatever...
I always thought genuine had a meaning that meant authentic and was in fact the real McCoy...
If a coin has been worked to the point where a professional opinion is not able to be rendered as to whether or not it is a Mint product, then it must be evaluated on a coin (case) by coin (case) basis.
Perhaps the real lesson learned is that even a Genuine holder has its rightful limitations and value for what that service is intended to provide the numismatic community
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The one significant problem here is for the graders to unknowingly weed out numismatic problems. If there is anything at all suspect, they have the right to refuse their service.
Therefore, there is no specific guide to determine what is acceptable when it comes to repairs. They are in the business to authenticate coins, not make determinations on how much a coin is altered.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>I’ve thought about this and came to the conclusion that by submitting a raw coin with known problems, especially ones that have been manipulated and covered up, is hedging on almost being libel.
The one significant problem here is for the graders to unknowingly weed out numismatic problems. If there is anything at all suspect, they have the right to refuse their service.
Therefore, there is no specific guide to determine what is acceptable when it comes to repairs. They are in the business to authenticate coins, not make determinations on how much a coin is altered. >>
I don't see the "is hedging on almost being libel" at all. And in the vast majority of cases, a grader can authenticate a coin without having to "make determinations on how much a coin is altered".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
An altered coin with major repairs is still genuine.
<< <i>
<< <i>I’ve thought about this and came to the conclusion that by submitting a raw coin with known problems, especially ones that have been manipulated and covered up, is hedging on almost being libel.
The one significant problem here is for the graders to unknowingly weed out numismatic problems. If there is anything at all suspect, they have the right to refuse their service.
Therefore, there is no specific guide to determine what is acceptable when it comes to repairs. They are in the business to authenticate coins, not make determinations on how much a coin is altered. >>
I don't see the "is hedging on almost being libel" at all. And in the vast majority of cases, a grader can authenticate a coin without having to "make determinations on how much a coin is altered". >>
Mark, I'm looking at this from the perspective of the company's view point, not as the collectors view point. Attempting to "slide" something past the graders may seem like a minor infraction to the submitter, but these companies take it very seriously. Their reputation and future is at stake.
We just disagree on the verbiage.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>If the entire surface of a coin is tooled to the point that none of the original surface detail is intact, how would one go about authenticating it? Not that the Gobrecht is or isn't that bad. I'm just asking "in general". >>
When an old car is completely restored, it's common for little or no of the original surface to still show either, but it's still considered to be the make/model it started as.
It wasn't just "smoothed out" in the fields.
The repair was done well, but it is a major repair. In my opinion a lot more major than just a hole plug.
PCGS is well within their court to not put this one in any slab.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I’ve thought about this and came to the conclusion that by submitting a raw coin with known problems, especially ones that have been manipulated and covered up, is hedging on almost being libel.
The one significant problem here is for the graders to unknowingly weed out numismatic problems. If there is anything at all suspect, they have the right to refuse their service.
Therefore, there is no specific guide to determine what is acceptable when it comes to repairs. They are in the business to authenticate coins, not make determinations on how much a coin is altered. >>
I don't see the "is hedging on almost being libel" at all. And in the vast majority of cases, a grader can authenticate a coin without having to "make determinations on how much a coin is altered". >>
Mark, I'm looking at this from the perspective of the company's view point, not as the collectors view point. Attempting to "slide" something past the graders may seem like a minor infraction to the submitter, but these companies take it very seriously. Their reputation and future is at stake.
We just disagree on the verbiage. >>
But where's the intent to "slide something past the graders" if a submitter is merely submitting a problem coin in order to get it into a genuine holder? How would you prove the intent to so something other than that?
Identifying Genuine Coins
PCGS - March 21, 2000
Genuine coins have well-formed lettering and numerals.
Chapter 13
Identifying Genuine Coins -- Comparisons With Counterfeit Specimens
The key to spotting a counterfeit or an altered coin is knowing how to recognize the real thing. This has been said many times, but it bears repeating. Knowledge of die characteristics, the shapes of mint marks, the styles of digits, and how coins are made all comes into play when confirming authenticity. The U.S. Mint is meticulous in its workmanship, and quality is inherent in its final products. Beyond that, the Mint treats its dies in ways that counterfeiters do not, imparting characteristics that counterfeiters find difficult to reproduce.
What are the characteristics authenticators look for?
1. The quality of the lettering, digits, and devices.
On most U.S. coins, authenticators look for the letters, digits, and devices to erupt from the surface squarely in a sharp, defined manner. The tops of digits and letters must also be sharp and precise. Obviously there have been a few U.S. coin designs that were not sharp in nature, so authentication for these coins can be more difficult. However, for most U.S. coins, this standard can be applied.
2. Luster.
While it might seem more important in grading a coin, luster is a factor in authentication as well. Typically, genuine U.S. coins have contrast between the fields and devices, attributable to the way coins are struck: the fields are essentially squeezed outward toward the edge, metal for the devices fills the dies, and the metallurgical flow results in contrast. For whatever reason--die preparation, striking pressure, or the types of planchets used--counterfeiters tend to produce coins with uniform luster, which gives them a distinctive "look" that experienced authenticators immediately recognize.
3. Die characteristics.
Most dies used by the U.S. Mint have been polished at one time or another or have developed cracks, clash marks, bulges, or other defects through use. While many counterfeiters see these defects as being detrimental, authenticators view them as clues to a genuine coin. Being able to recognize fine die-polish lines, small die cracks, or sharp die clashes makes it easier to separate the wheat -- the genuine coin -- from the chaff. Authenticators like to look into the most protected areas of a coin in search of the sharp, crisp, well-defined die polish marks. In the counterfeiter's attempt to reproduce coins, this slight but crucial evidence is almost always lost in the transfer. For this reason, it is one of the most useful tools in authentication. Additionally, die lines and die cracks are key diagnostics in identifying genuine dies.
4. The edge.
This "third side" of a coin often is overlooked, yet it can yield vital evidence. The edge can tell the authenticator many things about the coin. It can aid in determining whether or not the coin was struck; it can help identify certain alterations; and it can help identify genuine diagnostics on the collars of certain coins, most notably Indian Head eagles and Saint-Gaudens double eagles.
5. Knowledge of date punches and mint marks.
Perhaps the greatest single weapon in the authenticator's arsenal is knowledge of the punches that were used in the production of genuine U.S. coins. This is particularly true for coins that are commonly altered. When you know the style of the date or mint-mark punch used for the genuine coin, you will become immediately suspicious of any coin that deviates from that style.
6. Weight and specific gravity.
These tests are the least useful authentication tools for the vast majority of U.S. coins. Unfortunately, counterfeiters often use planchets of proper weight and fineness for their copies. Weight and specific gravity do become useful in checking the authenticity of many colonial coins, as well as some early U.S. coinage. For most other U.S. coins, however, these will not provide telling evidence.
For more information about the PCGS book this excerpt was taken from, please click here: The Official Guide To Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection.
PCGS always has the option of not grading a coin. We call it '86' and we render no opinion.
We don't like to do this as it is a waste of our time and resourses, but sometimes it is the most reasonable choice we have.
There is a line as some have said. It's tough to describe exactly, but when we can't tell where the real coin ends and the repairs begin - that's over the line.
I think you proved my point-
A coin by coin basis is the standard and some coins may have been tooled, impaired, altered or whatever to the point whereby a determination is unable to be made
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
It does not belong in a PCGS "Genuine" holder.
I dont think any repaired or doctored coin should be.
Now a "Details" graded holder maybe.
Regards, Larry
My Early Large Cents
So, the less artful the repair, the better the chance that the coin will slab as genuine?
<< <i>The coin has been doctored folks!
It does not belong in a PCGS "Genuine" holder.
I dont think any repaired or doctored coin should be.
Now a "Details" graded holder maybe.
Regards, Larry >>
Larry, AT'd, recolored, whizzed and many otherwise-altered coins (which are doctored) are placed in genuine holders. Clearly, the fact that a coin has been doctored doesn't necessarily exclude it from being slabbed as genuine.
That's nice to know as the coin is repaired and tooled and I think this fact should follow the coin on its travels.
And to answer the OP question if it's worked on IMO it is not Genuine. And yes I know that is dreaming but it sure would help if it were true.
<< <i>I think NGC will slab it too. But, they will put on the holder that it was repaired and tooled.
That's nice to know as the coin is repaired and tooled and I think this fact should follow the coin on its travels. >>
That fact doesnt bother me. When I decide to part with it, I have no intention to conceal that from anyone. I just would have preferred to see it in PCGS plastic without all its problems screaming at me everytime I looked at it. I still like this coin, its wonderful to have a Gobrecht Dollar. It is a genuine Gobrecht Dollar, it is a piece of history and its a shame that someone decided to use a nail to remove someones inscription from it. I firmly believe that the coin is in a more marketable state than it was before the repairs. Its certainly more fun to look at. Those scratches were horrendous and deep.
My Early Large Cents
It seems to me that the Genuine tag is applied to genuine US mint products, and for a coin to not get the genuine tag, it would be a counterfit or No longer the coin it started as Meaning, that a 1909 S VDB that has had the S added is NOT genuine...it was not an S VDB. This coin started as a 1836 dollar, and it still is an 1836 dollar.
I think the slabs should say WHY it was tagged genuine, not just genuine, however. This coin as an example should say "repaired, tooled".
Just the thoughts of someone who can't afford to play the grading game and as such is an impartial observer.
<< <i>An altered date is still a genuine mint product. It's just not considered a marketable coin in the eyes of the numismatic world.
An altered coin with major repairs is still genuine. >>
By that logic this should be slabbed as a genuine 1937 Buffalo nickel
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