It's just simply amazing to me...and again today, Jamie Moyer appeared to make the amazing common in a win where he put in 7 innings of quality work. He had 7 strikeouts and no walks with just 2 earned runs. I thought that manager Charlie Manuel summed it up well on Moyer "His longevity is absolutely remarkable. What impresses me is his command. He says if he puts the ball where he wants to, he can get people out." The fact that he's doing it again and again - with a fastball peaking in the low 80s and without a trick pitch - is just astonishing. This guy turns 50 in just over two years.
Now that Jamie's record is 9-6, he is on pace for 20 wins this season. I don't think it would be fair or probable to project 20 wins for Jamie this season. However, this is career win #267, which begins to beg the question:
Will Jamie Moyer reach 300 wins?
Asking that question as recently as last year felt that it would best be answered with a solid "no". Considering this strong 2010 start with the fact that Jamie has averaged 14 wins over each of the last three seasons - which are his first three full seasons with the Phils - the milestone now begins to feel possible; just improbable.
No chance for 300 wins...he'd have to pitch (at least) another two seasons after this one and I just can't see a 50-year-old pitcher getting guys out on a consistent basis. I'll tell you what, though: if he's still pitching in 2012 like he is right now, he deserves to be in the HOF, LOL..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
another win for him today with that line up and his effectiveness he should pitch another year or two. he has what 267 wins now atleast 275 by the end of the year, another year and a half of that puts him at 300. i don't see why he can't do that, he's still very effective
Fred
collecting RAW Topps baseball cards 1952 Highs to 1972. looking for collector grade (somewhere between psa 4-7 condition). let me know what you have, I'll take it, I want to finish sets, I must have something you can use for trade.
looking for Topps 71-72 hi's-62-53-54-55-59, I have these sets started
No way he pitches that well at 50? Well, I'd have said five years ago no way he pitches that well at 47. I don't know that there is that big of a decline in bodies from 47-50. I am not putting it past him.
No way he pitches that well at 50? Well, I'd have said five years ago no way he pitches that well at 47. I don't know that there is that big of a decline in bodies from 47-50. I am not putting it past him.
There have been a decent number of effective pitchers still pitching at ages 46-47, but I'd bet that number declines dramatically once the player reaches 49-50. I don't have the stats in front of me, but maybe Skin can dig some up. Off the top of my head, I recall Gaylord Perry and Nolan Ryan pitching well into their late 40s, but not past 47-48..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Look at all the no-hitters so far this year. With the focus on hitters and getting rid of PEDs, it seems as if we might be beginning another "age of the pitcher". If Jamie Moyer can summon the Gods and will himself to pitch another 2-3 years..........
Actually, here's a list of oldest pitchers in MLB history. As you can see, outside of Paige, whose birth date is dubious at best, no pitcher has even made a major league appearance in a game after turning 50 in about 80 years. So yes, I think it is highly unlikely (though not impossible) to see Moyer reach that level and/or win 300 games..
* 59 - Satchel Paige (1965) (Information on his date of birth is ambiguous.) * 57 - Nick Altrock (1933) * 50 - Jack Quinn (1933) * 49 - Hoyt Wilhelm (1972) * 48 - Phil Niekro (1987)[1] * 47 - Jamie Moyer (Active as of 2010) * 46 - Nolan Ryan (1993) * 46 - Jesse Orosco (2003) * 46 - Charlie Hough (1994) * 46 - Tommy John (1989) * 46 - Hod Lisenbee (1945) * 46 - Randy Johnson (2009) * 45 - Roger Clemens (2007) * 45 - Gaylord Perry (1983) * 45 - Fred Johnson (1939) * 45 - Ted Lyons (1946)
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
give him crappy win totals for those years and he's already at 300 wins
Good point. And in light of that, can we finally abolish the so-called "magic numbers" that have previously all but guaranteed HOF enshrinement. The 500 HRs have already essentially been taken down, for obvious reasons, but we may have to adjust our thinking and no longer consider 300 wins or 3,000 hits (is Biggio a HOFer?) an automatic ticket to the HOF.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I think we also have to keep in mind that 47 today is not 47 fifty years ago or even 20-30 years ago. Advances in health and nutrition keep people active longer, at a higher level. Moyer has obviously kept himself in shape allowing him to pitch well past the date where most people would've quit and we're going to see more and more of this, I think, once people get it thru their thick heads that what matters is production, not the date on your birth certificate. Moyer's case is a great example of one of my pet peeves in life - and that is that people develop at different rates, in all professions, walks of life, etc. But because we impose arbitrary barriers and milestones that we expect them to have reached at a given point, we wind up killing the development of a lot of people who are later bloomers.......at the same time we're celebrating guys like Strasburg who appear to be mature beyond their years, but may flame out and be out of baseball before he's 30. You can especially see this with pitchers.........many of the 300 game winners are not unlike Moyer in that they became actually more effective later in their careers.
Ron Burgundy
Buying Vintage, all sports. Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Personally I think if he wins 280 games he should at least be in the conversation. Will his periphials allow him in (most HR's ever, slow career start, low K/9ip totals, etc.) probably not. Most telling is his career WAR totals.
Elite pitchers are in the 90's. 60 is pretty low for a HOF. Don Sutton is 78. Phil Niekro is 96.8, Nolan Ryan is 84.8, Curt Schilling is 69.7 and Pedro Martinez is 75.9.
This list is just a short one compiled of pitchers that played a long long time and are in the HOF and 2 current players who are on the bubble for the HOF.
Moyer's career WAR is 48.1. Even if you give him a 3 WAR for this season (he is only at 0.7 now) and a 3 for the next 2 seasons his career WAR totals will still be under 60.
That total is in the territory of Early Wynn, Juan Marichal and Jim Bunning so its not unheard of just not a good total compared with other HOF players. The only players he would be higher than are either relievers or players who had injury shortened careers (Koufax, Dean).
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Dang it. Moyer got clobbered today...at least statistically. I didn't get to watch today's game.
He gave up 7 ERs. His record will probably go to 9-8 and ERA will inflate to 4.51. Deserved or not - a couple weeks ago he was actually receiving some light buzz for the All-Star Game. (!)
Edited to add: After today's outing, maybe we'll hear that "Jamie's too old" for about the fifteenth time in his career.
Finally showing signs of his age..it's all downhill from here..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I'm a Phils fan, but honestly I can't see Moyer ever being HOF. However, I give him credit, every time I predict to myself that he will finish with 230 wins, then he makes it to 240, and when I raise the bar to 250, he takes it to 260, and so on. He can't possibly get to 300, I tell myself, but I no longer bet against this, either.
As both a Phillies fan and a fan whose favorite player is Jamie Moyer, I think it would be ridiculous for him to get HOF consideration. Sadly, the Baseball HOF is already watered-down. Jamie's body of work should in no way qualify him. Even if he gets 300 wins, he should not go in. Despite some strong seasons with Seattle, it's probably a stretch to call him one of the best pitchers during any period of significant duration during his lengthy career.
Nonetheless, Jamie is a man that I respect deeply. Each one of his upcoming starts is something that I view with great anticipation.
Jamie's sure had some rough starts lately, reflected in his statline which has regressed closer to the league mean: 9 - 9 with a 4.88 ERA. Nerd Alert - his Batting Average Against and WHIP are both strong. He's just given up an awful lot of home runs already this season.
Jamie Moyer will not make the HOF because of one simple thing: For a player to be eligible, that player must be retired for five years. Jamie Moyer will never retire. He will pitch forever. Therefore, he will be perpetually ineligible.
<< <i>As both a Phillies fan and a fan whose favorite player is Jamie Moyer, I think it would be ridiculous for him to get HOF consideration. Sadly, the Baseball HOF is already watered-down. Jamie's body of work should in no way qualify him. Even if he gets 300 wins, he should not go in. Despite some strong seasons with Seattle, it's probably a stretch to call him one of the best pitchers during any period of significant duration during his lengthy career.
Nonetheless, Jamie is a man that I respect deeply. Each one of his upcoming starts is something that I view with great anticipation.
Jamie's sure had some rough starts lately, reflected in his statline which has regressed closer to the league mean: 9 - 9 with a 4.88 ERA. Nerd Alert - his Batting Average Against and WHIP are both strong. He's just given up an awful lot of home runs already this season.
Let's go, Jamie! >>
Good to hear a voice of reason instead of those "voices" who believe that players who weren't great players, but were career "stat accumulaters" like Jim Kaat, should be in the Hall of Fame.
<< <i>The previous post would be stronger if Jim Kaat, a non HOF'er, wasn't used as the example. >>
I was saying to those who believe he should be in...there have been a number of posts here about why Kaat and other stat accumulators should be in. Nothing wrong with a player accumulating stats and it is admirable, but that should not be a sole criteria for induction.
<< <i>I think we also have to keep in mind that 47 today is not 47 fifty years ago or even 20-30 years ago. Advances in health and nutrition keep people active longer, at a higher level. Moyer has obviously kept himself in shape allowing him to pitch well past the date where most people would've quit and we're going to see more and more of this, I think, once people get it thru their thick heads that what matters is production, not the date on your birth certificate. Moyer's case is a great example of one of my pet peeves in life - and that is that people develop at different rates, in all professions, walks of life, etc. But because we impose arbitrary barriers and milestones that we expect them to have reached at a given point, we wind up killing the development of a lot of people who are later bloomers.......at the same time we're celebrating guys like Strasburg who appear to be mature beyond their years, but may flame out and be out of baseball before he's 30. You can especially see this with pitchers.........many of the 300 game winners are not unlike Moyer in that they became actually more effective later in their careers. >>
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
To have a shot at 300, he'd have to pitch probably 3 more seasons, minimum. His career is beginning to make Jim Kaat's and Don Sutton's look like brief ones, LOL..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Comments
Now that Jamie's record is 9-6, he is on pace for 20 wins this season. I don't think it would be fair or probable to project 20 wins for Jamie this season. However, this is career win #267, which begins to beg the question:
Will Jamie Moyer reach 300 wins?
Asking that question as recently as last year felt that it would best be answered with a solid "no". Considering this strong 2010 start with the fact that Jamie has averaged 14 wins over each of the last three seasons - which are his first three full seasons with the Phils - the milestone now begins to feel possible; just improbable.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Steve
with that line up and his effectiveness he should pitch another year or two.
he has what 267 wins now atleast 275 by the end of the year, another year and a half of that puts him at 300. i don't see why he can't do that, he's still very effective
collecting RAW Topps baseball cards 1952 Highs to 1972. looking for collector grade (somewhere between psa 4-7 condition). let me know what you have, I'll take it, I want to finish sets, I must have something you can use for trade.
looking for Topps 71-72 hi's-62-53-54-55-59, I have these sets started
There have been a decent number of effective pitchers still pitching at ages 46-47, but I'd bet that number declines dramatically once the player reaches 49-50. I don't have the stats in front of me, but maybe Skin can dig some up. Off the top of my head, I recall Gaylord Perry and Nolan Ryan pitching well into their late 40s, but not past 47-48..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Look at all the no-hitters so far this year. With the focus on hitters and getting rid of PEDs, it seems as if we might be beginning another "age of the pitcher". If Jamie Moyer can summon the Gods and will himself to pitch another 2-3 years..........
Steve
* 59 - Satchel Paige (1965) (Information on his date of birth is ambiguous.)
* 57 - Nick Altrock (1933)
* 50 - Jack Quinn (1933)
* 49 - Hoyt Wilhelm (1972)
* 48 - Phil Niekro (1987)[1]
* 47 - Jamie Moyer (Active as of 2010)
* 46 - Nolan Ryan (1993)
* 46 - Jesse Orosco (2003)
* 46 - Charlie Hough (1994)
* 46 - Tommy John (1989)
* 46 - Hod Lisenbee (1945)
* 46 - Randy Johnson (2009)
* 45 - Roger Clemens (2007)
* 45 - Gaylord Perry (1983)
* 45 - Fred Johnson (1939)
* 45 - Ted Lyons (1946)
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
4 wins in 1989
2 wins in 1990
0 wins in 1991
and did not play in 1992
give him crappy win totals for those years and he's already at 300 wins
Good point. And in light of that, can we finally abolish the so-called "magic numbers" that have previously all but guaranteed HOF enshrinement. The 500 HRs have already essentially been taken down, for obvious reasons, but we may have to adjust our thinking and no longer consider 300 wins or 3,000 hits (is Biggio a HOFer?) an automatic ticket to the HOF.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Elite pitchers are in the 90's. 60 is pretty low for a HOF. Don Sutton is 78. Phil Niekro is 96.8, Nolan Ryan is 84.8, Curt Schilling is 69.7 and Pedro Martinez is 75.9.
This list is just a short one compiled of pitchers that played a long long time and are in the HOF and 2 current players who are on the bubble for the HOF.
Moyer's career WAR is 48.1. Even if you give him a 3 WAR for this season (he is only at 0.7 now) and a 3 for the next 2 seasons his career WAR totals will still be under 60.
That total is in the territory of Early Wynn, Juan Marichal and Jim Bunning so its not unheard of just not a good total compared with other HOF players. The only players he would be higher than are either relievers or players who had injury shortened careers (Koufax, Dean).
He gave up 7 ERs. His record will probably go to 9-8 and ERA will inflate to 4.51. Deserved or not - a couple weeks ago he was actually receiving some light buzz for the All-Star Game. (!)
Edited to add: After today's outing, maybe we'll hear that "Jamie's too old" for about the fifteenth time in his career.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Finally showing signs of his age..it's all downhill from here..
He can't go downhill because he never got to the top of the hill, he's just been on the side of the hill for like 25 years.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
Nonetheless, Jamie is a man that I respect deeply. Each one of his upcoming starts is something that I view with great anticipation.
Jamie's sure had some rough starts lately, reflected in his statline which has regressed closer to the league mean: 9 - 9 with a 4.88 ERA. Nerd Alert - his Batting Average Against and WHIP are both strong. He's just given up an awful lot of home runs already this season.
Let's go, Jamie!
<< <i>As both a Phillies fan and a fan whose favorite player is Jamie Moyer, I think it would be ridiculous for him to get HOF consideration. Sadly, the Baseball HOF is already watered-down. Jamie's body of work should in no way qualify him. Even if he gets 300 wins, he should not go in. Despite some strong seasons with Seattle, it's probably a stretch to call him one of the best pitchers during any period of significant duration during his lengthy career.
Nonetheless, Jamie is a man that I respect deeply. Each one of his upcoming starts is something that I view with great anticipation.
Jamie's sure had some rough starts lately, reflected in his statline which has regressed closer to the league mean: 9 - 9 with a 4.88 ERA. Nerd Alert - his Batting Average Against and WHIP are both strong. He's just given up an awful lot of home runs already this season.
Let's go, Jamie! >>
Good to hear a voice of reason instead of those "voices" who believe that players who weren't great players, but were career "stat accumulaters" like Jim Kaat, should be in the Hall of Fame.
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i>The previous post would be stronger if Jim Kaat, a non HOF'er, wasn't used as the example.
I was saying to those who believe he should be in...there have been a number of posts here about why Kaat and other stat accumulators should be in. Nothing wrong with a player accumulating stats and it is admirable, but that should not be a sole criteria for induction.
<< <i>I think we also have to keep in mind that 47 today is not 47 fifty years ago or even 20-30 years ago. Advances in health and nutrition keep people active longer, at a higher level. Moyer has obviously kept himself in shape allowing him to pitch well past the date where most people would've quit and we're going to see more and more of this, I think, once people get it thru their thick heads that what matters is production, not the date on your birth certificate. Moyer's case is a great example of one of my pet peeves in life - and that is that people develop at different rates, in all professions, walks of life, etc. But because we impose arbitrary barriers and milestones that we expect them to have reached at a given point, we wind up killing the development of a lot of people who are later bloomers.......at the same time we're celebrating guys like Strasburg who appear to be mature beyond their years, but may flame out and be out of baseball before he's 30. You can especially see this with pitchers.........many of the 300 game winners are not unlike Moyer in that they became actually more effective later in their careers. >>
I like this post.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Erik
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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