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The Feuchtwanger Three Cent Pieces, A Good look at this Rarity!
ambro51
Posts: 13,945 ✭✭✭✭✭
Im sure many forum members have not been exposed to exactly what these coins are. I know they are all brand new to me, and let me share what Ive learned so far. These are pretty neat coins. First, and probably most important...they are listed in the GUIDE BOOK. Yes (as we all bow) If a coin is in the redbook is it BonaFide. And so the Feuchtwanger Three Cent Piece is listed...and hence, a coin of significance and worth consideration a a serious collector piece.
Now, in your best Colonel Klink impression "Phonetic Pronunciation: FOYKT-vahng-ur" (AJ Foyt Bernhard Lahnger)
This is actually a series, with four distinct types, a common version, a proof, and two dates. The 1837 New York, 1837 Eagle 1837 Eagle with Oak Leaf Reverse 1864 Eagle
When I seen my brand newP in her ebay auction finest...I knew it was MY coin and that the specialist Gong inside my head has been well and truly rung. Its been a lot of fun learning a little about these coins, Hope you can thrill a bit in the Numismatic adventure from the additon of a F3C, or maybe a Triplewanger...I think most of the fun in owning the coins is really learning as much as you can about them, and what a better way to do that other than buy very rare coins of which few exist.
One Neat Looking Coin! Too bad there are so few of them.
How can you not NOT love this thing???? The one on the right is giving you a look like you just spilled a half gallon of milk on the kitchen floor.
There is a certain primitive and ghoulish charm dwelling about the two entities on the front, the lovely bird....delicate scales....a beautiful rendition with a homespun appeal. Ive wondered....did any hobo nickel artists ever get ahold of one of these..and undress the ladies?
The Obverse is similar to the 1787 Excelsior Copper.
This is a fairly large coin, at 24.8 mm it is just very slightly larger than a quarter. The edge is reeded.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Some quickish research (and printing out) of Heritage auction archives indicate 33 sale events. Most seem to be unique specimens, bearing further study. The first type, my newP above is the first type, the New York. It bears a decent rendition of the New York State Coat of Arms. The reverse is a very well done generic coin type, which in many ways resembles the type 1 gold dollar reverse. Both coins used the flat nature of the reverse to give added ability of the obverse to fill a deeply cut artistic die. Quality is fairly high and what is seen with the heritage archives is that they NY design tends to have offerings that correspond with that of a typically circulated coin. It must have been a truly odd coin even for its day. Possibly there is a foreign low denomination coin that circulated at that time which was similar in value. But, at 25 mm and with a reeded edge, it seems that then, as now, it would be easy to confuse with a quarter.
A basic question is how many were made, and how many survive? Well Im just a neophyte at these and would love to share thoughts with others and see other F3C's, the only fact is that the NY is ranked as an R3, which means from 201 to 500 surviving coins. PCGS currently has 30 slabbed in all grades and as I understand NGC has fewer than that. Heritage auction archives, which really proved their value to me as a research tool with rare gold dollars....on record back to 1993 are 21 auction events, some of the same coin. So this, together with a general chatter about rarity etc etc through internet searches...leads me to a few conclusions (which of course may change over time). These coins had no melt value, so thats an odd thing that actually they had going for their survival. though..no doubt a few were destroyed in learning that. A few have been holed, planchet splits are common, since the coin is rather thin. A few are worn to the degree they must have been individual pocket pieces for long periods. Some Gems exist, MS64 and present different looks and lusters. This is in many ways a New York City coin. Struck there, no doubt locally recognized and dealt with, it was accepted in commerce and used in lieu of government small specie. Both the 1 cent and 3 cent coins were struck at 2 Cortlandt St. New York City.
Given the low certification number, and the fact that the coin is slabbed across the grades...I think the surviving numbers of this piece are far less than R3, just a gut feeling but Im thinking anywhere from 70 to a high of 120. Heritage Auction archives cover a total of 33 sales events. By matching coins with prior sales, its possible to determine that 29 individual coins made up these auctions. Twenty were for the New York Type, and ranged from G to MS64. There are seven mint state coins. Five auctions were for the second type, the side eagle on the rocks. Three sales for the third, the 1864, and only one sale for the eagle/oak leaf reverse. None of the PL coins are recorded sold through heritage. So...One Rare Coin, for sure.
Here are a few shots at a high grade Feuchtwanger 3 Cent New York Low 117 HT-262 Rarity R3 Heritage sales 20 coins
Now, you thought **THAT** one was Rare, wait till ya see THIS one!
For some reason, the obverse was totally redesigned. An eagle very similar to the one on the Cent was developed for the 3 Cent piece, perched arrogantly on a pile of rocks. A dynamic evil looking bird. Strongly engraved and very artistic on all specimens, which have toned and colored to different looks. The Reverse is similar to, but different than the the New York. I dont know at this stage any more details on this, other than it was struck after the NY versions...and in the overview of the heritage sample lot, does not seem to have been an actively circulating coin, or saved in poor condition. Some Splendid Gems exist, stunning full struck coins which clearly were struck for the benefit of the numismatic market. A Beautiful Design, using the same planchet size and reverse. The edge is Reeded. The rarity is really ramped up here. This design has only been offered 7 times through heritage. A clear indicator of the surviving number of specimens!
They have this listed as an R5, 31 to 75 known. 1837 Feuchtwanger Eagle Low 118 HT-263 Heritage Sales 5 coins
Not Rare Enough??
This version is one of the rarest and and most mysterious of the Four. Dated 1864 it features a smaller planchet at 23.5 mm, redesigned but Front Facing eagle on the obverse, and an ornate reverse with a ribbon which is generic oak leaf version of the current Longacre designed coins. This coin, from my sample, was not an active circulating stike. All survivors are MS and in keeping with current theory that this strike was from the numismatic market of the era. For whatever reason, today it is considered a R6 which translates to 13-30 known.
1864 Feuchtwanger 3 Cent Low 179a HT-267 Heritage Sales 3 coins
**STILL** Not Rare Enough? Yes, theres the R7 1837 NY Eagle Low 119 HT-265 Heritage Sale 1 coin
This is the rarest of all the Feuchtwanger Three Cent Pieces. The Obverse features a rather scared, reptillian looking Eagle, standing on a smaller clump. A cousin to the other design...but aside from the same engraving style, completely different in details. The Reverse is the ornate Oak Leaf Reverse from the HT-267. Very Few auction records exist for this coin. The illustration piece is Ex. Virgil Brand John J Ford. There is but this single sale record in heritage archives. So, that should be plenty rare for just about anyone. The price, in 2006, $9200 R7 is 4 to 12 known.
Almost like the Cherry on top of the Cake, the rarest of all is a prooflike stamping of the HT-265, and now is known as the HT 265a. Obviously a specimen coin, the fields are highly polished. We can look at the beautiful picture and imagine what this coin must look like in hand....the ultimate rarity of the series.
1837 NY Eagle Prooflike HT-265a Rarity 7+ Heritage sales no coins
Can it get rarer than an R7+?...yes, the HT-266 is a die trial piece that was made before the final eagle design on the HT-265. Subtle changes were made to the eagle and the mound. This specimen is probably unique.
So thats some of what Ive found out about this very teeny little corner of the numismatic world. And like all corners...sometimes what we find tucked way back DEEP inside of it, is the Most Interesting!!
And yes there is a 100% COMPLETE Registry set with PCGS (no Pictures though) http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset.aspx?s=18820
And Now Folks, you all probably know quite a bit more about Three Cent Feuchtwangers than you did a few minutes ago! This is a great hobby isnt it?
Now, in your best Colonel Klink impression "Phonetic Pronunciation: FOYKT-vahng-ur" (AJ Foyt Bernhard Lahnger)
This is actually a series, with four distinct types, a common version, a proof, and two dates. The 1837 New York, 1837 Eagle 1837 Eagle with Oak Leaf Reverse 1864 Eagle
When I seen my brand newP in her ebay auction finest...I knew it was MY coin and that the specialist Gong inside my head has been well and truly rung. Its been a lot of fun learning a little about these coins, Hope you can thrill a bit in the Numismatic adventure from the additon of a F3C, or maybe a Triplewanger...I think most of the fun in owning the coins is really learning as much as you can about them, and what a better way to do that other than buy very rare coins of which few exist.
One Neat Looking Coin! Too bad there are so few of them.
How can you not NOT love this thing???? The one on the right is giving you a look like you just spilled a half gallon of milk on the kitchen floor.
There is a certain primitive and ghoulish charm dwelling about the two entities on the front, the lovely bird....delicate scales....a beautiful rendition with a homespun appeal. Ive wondered....did any hobo nickel artists ever get ahold of one of these..and undress the ladies?
The Obverse is similar to the 1787 Excelsior Copper.This is a fairly large coin, at 24.8 mm it is just very slightly larger than a quarter. The edge is reeded.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Some quickish research (and printing out) of Heritage auction archives indicate 33 sale events. Most seem to be unique specimens, bearing further study. The first type, my newP above is the first type, the New York. It bears a decent rendition of the New York State Coat of Arms. The reverse is a very well done generic coin type, which in many ways resembles the type 1 gold dollar reverse. Both coins used the flat nature of the reverse to give added ability of the obverse to fill a deeply cut artistic die. Quality is fairly high and what is seen with the heritage archives is that they NY design tends to have offerings that correspond with that of a typically circulated coin. It must have been a truly odd coin even for its day. Possibly there is a foreign low denomination coin that circulated at that time which was similar in value. But, at 25 mm and with a reeded edge, it seems that then, as now, it would be easy to confuse with a quarter.
A basic question is how many were made, and how many survive? Well Im just a neophyte at these and would love to share thoughts with others and see other F3C's, the only fact is that the NY is ranked as an R3, which means from 201 to 500 surviving coins. PCGS currently has 30 slabbed in all grades and as I understand NGC has fewer than that. Heritage auction archives, which really proved their value to me as a research tool with rare gold dollars....on record back to 1993 are 21 auction events, some of the same coin. So this, together with a general chatter about rarity etc etc through internet searches...leads me to a few conclusions (which of course may change over time). These coins had no melt value, so thats an odd thing that actually they had going for their survival. though..no doubt a few were destroyed in learning that. A few have been holed, planchet splits are common, since the coin is rather thin. A few are worn to the degree they must have been individual pocket pieces for long periods. Some Gems exist, MS64 and present different looks and lusters. This is in many ways a New York City coin. Struck there, no doubt locally recognized and dealt with, it was accepted in commerce and used in lieu of government small specie. Both the 1 cent and 3 cent coins were struck at 2 Cortlandt St. New York City.
Given the low certification number, and the fact that the coin is slabbed across the grades...I think the surviving numbers of this piece are far less than R3, just a gut feeling but Im thinking anywhere from 70 to a high of 120. Heritage Auction archives cover a total of 33 sales events. By matching coins with prior sales, its possible to determine that 29 individual coins made up these auctions. Twenty were for the New York Type, and ranged from G to MS64. There are seven mint state coins. Five auctions were for the second type, the side eagle on the rocks. Three sales for the third, the 1864, and only one sale for the eagle/oak leaf reverse. None of the PL coins are recorded sold through heritage. So...One Rare Coin, for sure.
Here are a few shots at a high grade Feuchtwanger 3 Cent New York Low 117 HT-262 Rarity R3 Heritage sales 20 coins
Now, you thought **THAT** one was Rare, wait till ya see THIS one!
For some reason, the obverse was totally redesigned. An eagle very similar to the one on the Cent was developed for the 3 Cent piece, perched arrogantly on a pile of rocks. A dynamic evil looking bird. Strongly engraved and very artistic on all specimens, which have toned and colored to different looks. The Reverse is similar to, but different than the the New York. I dont know at this stage any more details on this, other than it was struck after the NY versions...and in the overview of the heritage sample lot, does not seem to have been an actively circulating coin, or saved in poor condition. Some Splendid Gems exist, stunning full struck coins which clearly were struck for the benefit of the numismatic market. A Beautiful Design, using the same planchet size and reverse. The edge is Reeded. The rarity is really ramped up here. This design has only been offered 7 times through heritage. A clear indicator of the surviving number of specimens!
They have this listed as an R5, 31 to 75 known. 1837 Feuchtwanger Eagle Low 118 HT-263 Heritage Sales 5 coins
Not Rare Enough??
This version is one of the rarest and and most mysterious of the Four. Dated 1864 it features a smaller planchet at 23.5 mm, redesigned but Front Facing eagle on the obverse, and an ornate reverse with a ribbon which is generic oak leaf version of the current Longacre designed coins. This coin, from my sample, was not an active circulating stike. All survivors are MS and in keeping with current theory that this strike was from the numismatic market of the era. For whatever reason, today it is considered a R6 which translates to 13-30 known.
1864 Feuchtwanger 3 Cent Low 179a HT-267 Heritage Sales 3 coins
**STILL** Not Rare Enough? Yes, theres the R7 1837 NY Eagle Low 119 HT-265 Heritage Sale 1 coin
This is the rarest of all the Feuchtwanger Three Cent Pieces. The Obverse features a rather scared, reptillian looking Eagle, standing on a smaller clump. A cousin to the other design...but aside from the same engraving style, completely different in details. The Reverse is the ornate Oak Leaf Reverse from the HT-267. Very Few auction records exist for this coin. The illustration piece is Ex. Virgil Brand John J Ford. There is but this single sale record in heritage archives. So, that should be plenty rare for just about anyone. The price, in 2006, $9200 R7 is 4 to 12 known.
Almost like the Cherry on top of the Cake, the rarest of all is a prooflike stamping of the HT-265, and now is known as the HT 265a. Obviously a specimen coin, the fields are highly polished. We can look at the beautiful picture and imagine what this coin must look like in hand....the ultimate rarity of the series.
1837 NY Eagle Prooflike HT-265a Rarity 7+ Heritage sales no coins
Can it get rarer than an R7+?...yes, the HT-266 is a die trial piece that was made before the final eagle design on the HT-265. Subtle changes were made to the eagle and the mound. This specimen is probably unique.
So thats some of what Ive found out about this very teeny little corner of the numismatic world. And like all corners...sometimes what we find tucked way back DEEP inside of it, is the Most Interesting!!
And yes there is a 100% COMPLETE Registry set with PCGS (no Pictures though) http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset.aspx?s=18820
And Now Folks, you all probably know quite a bit more about Three Cent Feuchtwangers than you did a few minutes ago! This is a great hobby isnt it?
2
Comments
I saw one of these at CoinFest back in October, with the second design, the Eagle on the Rocks. But I seem to recall it being smaller, perhaps it was a cent piece. By the time I saw it I had spent most of my money so I didn't inquire about it. I could be wrong, though, as that day was coin overload, being my first ever show.
Thank you for taking the time to share.
<< <i>Very nice write-up! >>
http://www.3centnickel.com/ecart/product_info.php?cPath=86&products_id=906&osCsid=voszwdhujqrv
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
Text
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
While I realize this thread is 10 years old, it seems the Feuchtwanger 3 Cents are incredibly rare - and this thread is still one of the top results when you Google the topic. So, I present two specimens of the HT-265A that are coming up in the Partrick sale.
The first is a 63PL: NGC MS-63 PL Feucht 3 cent
And the second is an absolutely incredible 65 DPL, which is also ex. Bowers: NGC MS-65 DPL Feucht 3 cent
Utterly gorgeous!
Wow... that MS65 is amazing....And this is a great old thread...well worth resurrecting. Cheers, RickO
Wow
Oh I want that ht265 bad! Ms65pl.......that’s crazy cool
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
I want it too!
It will sell for north of $30k, though, and I don't have that kind of loose cash lying around.
I just took a quick browse through this auction...........there are countless of important tokens coming
to auction.......wow, just wow
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Fantastic coin.
That 65dpl makes me feel like a kid seeing Farrah Fawcett's swimsuit poster for the first time.