Home› Sports Talk
Options

Derek Jeter....clearly...the most over-rated player in baseball

murcerfanmurcerfan Posts: 2,329 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
an annual revisitation:

Tejada
Garciaparra
M. Young
Lugo-Hugo-Scugo.

who else have I foegotten?




Clearly there is something that all you baseall experts from Boston see.... that I can't?

Comments

  • Options
    ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,542 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hell, I WISH the Sox had Tejada.

    Heck, I would have been happey if they stuck with O. Cabrerra in 04 or Alex Gonzalez in 06.

    John Henry should ban Theo from selecting shortstops and dealing with Bor-Ass.

    Jeter is a Hall of Famer -- however, I think his defense is modestly overrated, and he stole the Gold Glove from A-Gon in 06.
    *For Sale on BST* *For Sale on Ebay*
  • Options
    softparadesoftparade Posts: 9,271 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In his 9,905th plate appearance, to open the bottom of the first against Freddy Garcia last night, Jeter singled. He hit a two-run homer off of Garcia to tie the score in the fifth and darted a two-run triple in the seventh to put the Yankees ahead for good in a 6-4 victory over the White Sox.

    "What if someone had told you that night that all these years later they would both be active, and Jeter would go by Griffey?" said Alex Rodriguez, who was a member of the 1995 Mariners when Jeter got his first big league hit. "The odds would have been astronomical."

    But Jeter has a way of turning the odds in his favor. He concluded the game with 2,778 hits and as the active hits leader. Barring an unexpected revival by Griffey, Jeter is likely to hold that title for the rest of his career as he marches toward 3,000 hits, and maybe even 4,000. He passed Lou Gehrig last year to become the Yankees' all-time hit king and Griffey last night to become the active hit king. Somewhere up in the distance is Pete Rose. Bet against Jeter at your own peril.

    ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240

  • Options
    TomGshotputTomGshotput Posts: 1,358
    Are you saying Jeter isn't rated over those players?
    Tom
  • Options
    frankhardyfrankhardy Posts: 8,046 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jeter is clearly a future Hall of Famer and a great player. However, because he plays in New York, he does get much, much more attention than he deserves. He is just a notch above Craig Biggio (who had a nice long career and over 3,000 hits). As a matter of fact, baseball reference has him most similar to Barry Larkin, Roberto Alomar, Ryne Sandberg, Craig Biggio, and Alan Trammell. The only all time greats that come up are Joe Sewell and Joe Cronin. So, when you put his name beside those names, who is more popular? Jeter, of course, by a country mile.

    Shane

  • Options
    metsfanmetsfan Posts: 834
    Being a Met fan, i have always been a Yankee hater. Derek Jeter's game is about more then his stats, he knows how to win. He does the little things in a game that give his team a chance to win.
    my ebay auctions
    Save on ebay with Big Crumbs
  • Options
    frankhardyfrankhardy Posts: 8,046 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Being a Met fan, i have always been a Yankee hater. Derek Jeter's game is about more then his stats, he knows how to win. He does the little things in a game that give his team a chance to win. >>



    I agree to an extent. However, it's easy to see those "little things" when you play on the New York Yankees. The team is loaded every year. If he played for the Kansas City Royals, those same little things that he does would be microscopic and would not be noticed. The fact that he plays for the Yankees puts those little things he does under a microscope and they look bigger than they really are.

    Shane

  • Options
    softparadesoftparade Posts: 9,271 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Jeter is clearly a future Hall of Famer and a great player. However, because he plays in New York, he does get much, much more attention than he deserves. He is just a notch above Craig Biggio (who had a nice long career and over 3,000 hits). >>



    Jeter is not going to limp and crawl to 3,000 hits and then retire. He will sprint past that number sometime before the all star break next season. Barring injury problems, Pete Rose will start watching. Jeter wants to play 10 more seasons and reach 45 years old. He would have to average 147 hits per season including this season to pass Rose. Tough, but a few more 200 hit seasons and that average goes down to levels that threaten the record. As much as you say he gets too much attention in NY, the same greatly underestimate the fire this guy has to play the game.

    ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240

  • Options
    GarabaldiGarabaldi Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭
    Being a Red Sox fan I have seen Jeter waaaaaay too many times. I dispise the Yankees, but Jeter has my upmost respect. He is a winner and comes up big in the clutch. I know that it can not be quantified, but he comes up big when the time is big.
  • Options
    edmundfitzgeraldedmundfitzgerald Posts: 4,306 ✭✭


    << <i>
    who else have I foegotten?



    ? >>



    To visit this board in 2004 after the Yankees had the worst collapse in baseball history, at the hands of the Red Sox.

    I think it took you six years to remember image

    Sincerely,
    Never to be duplicated

  • Options
    burke23burke23 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭


    << <i>[Jeter is not going to limp and crawl to 3,000 hits and then retire. He will sprint past that number sometime before the all star break next season. Barring injury problems, Pete Rose will start watching. Jeter wants to play 10 more seasons and reach 45 years old. He would have to average 147 hits per season including this season to pass Rose. Tough, but a few more 200 hit seasons and that average goes down to levels that threaten the record. As much as you say he gets too much attention in NY, the same greatly underestimate the fire this guy has to play the game. >>



    Right...because someone will want to pay to have a slap hitting DH for 5 of those 10 years. I respect the hell out of Jeter, but I don't see it. He certainly won't be able to play SS...maybe OF at best...and then someone is trotting out an overpriced slap-hitting OF.
    Looking for rare Randy Moss rookies and autos, as well as '97 PMG Red Football cards for my set.
  • Options
    MCMLVToppsMCMLVTopps Posts: 4,616 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think Jeter is one of the classiest players in the game. He may not be the best at SS, but I think he gives his all to the Yankees and the game. Undoubtedly he'll get voted into the HOF on his first eligiblity date.

    The Yankees and their fans are most fortunate to have him on their team, I have nothing but the utmost respect for him...and I've been a Red Sox fan for a long, long, long time.
  • Options
    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,533 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm a Mets fan, but I'd love to see Jeter approach the all-time hits record...I'm sure whatever position he plays, he won't have the luxury of just writing himself into the lineup every day like Rose did those last couple years. And let's face it: if he breaks down due to age and isn't worth a roster spot, no team is going to let him just chase the record for sentimental reasons. If he does wind up playing till age 45, you can bet he will be productive, too.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • Options
    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,533 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Exactly who are all these power hitting great DHs that you are implicitly referring to?

    I've always been a Griffey fan, but you want to talk about a guy who is hanging on as a DH..


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • Options
    softparadesoftparade Posts: 9,271 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Right...because someone will want to pay to have a slap hitting DH for 5 of those 10 years. I respect the hell out of Jeter, but I don't see it. He certainly won't be able to play SS...maybe OF at best...and then someone is trotting out an overpriced slap-hitting OF. >>



    image

    Egads!

    ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240

  • Options
    DaBeefDaBeef Posts: 2,478


    << <i>Exactly who are all these power hitting great DHs that you are implicitly referring to?

    I've always been a Griffey fan, but you want to talk about a guy who is hanging on as a DH..[/q

    I know the guy has struggled this year, but put him in a streamer chance at a game winning hit/hr, HE WOULD COME THOUGH! I still love watching Jr at the plate.
    Am I speaking Chinese?



    image
  • Options
    TomGshotputTomGshotput Posts: 1,358


    << <i> IMO, if he has a league average bat for the next 4-5 years, regardless of what position he plays or how well he plays it, he will probably and rightfully go down as the best SS of the modern era (1920 to present). >>



    When talking about the very best players of the past 90 years. Years of simply being league average (that would be a full time DH hitting under .270 with 12 homeruns) should rarely be used as criteria for moving one player above another. If you truly believe he isn't already ahead of Vaughan, Banks, Yount, Ripken, Larkin, even a few seasons like that shouldn't move him past them
    Tom
  • Options
    TomGshotputTomGshotput Posts: 1,358
    When I wrote "you," it was in the general sense including all baseball historians. If they don't currently have Jeter at the top, league average seasons will not put him there. Of course it is very likely he will do better than league average. Still unlikely he will surpass Ripken in my eyes, due to Ripken's far superior defense and playing when shortstops overall were so far worse offensively. Can't believe anyone would think calling him the third best shortstop in the entire history of the sport would be selling him short, though

    Vaughan only played 12 full years
    Tom
  • Options
    TomGshotputTomGshotput Posts: 1,358
    For example, Banks had an amazing six year peak from 54-60. Two other years where he was a good hitting shortstop. That puts him only four years behind Vaughan. Yet you agree that a full eight years as virtually a league average hitter playing first base isn't enough to surpass him
    Tom
  • Options
    TomGshotputTomGshotput Posts: 1,358
    The thing about Ripken, is that he really was a great defensive shortstop. Not Ozzie Smith level, but close to almost anyone else in history. He had a strong arm so he could play very deep and developed a great ability to position himself well based on the hitter, pitcher, count, et cetera. During much of his career everyone "knew" a great defensive shortstop had to be quick and make a lot of diving catches. Ripken was big, slow and so often the hits he did take away looked like a routine play, so too few people realized exactly how good he was. By the end of his career, when some people were appreciating it, that part of his game was so far overshadowed by The Streak and his overall image (same thing applies to Jackie Robinson, who could possibly be right there with Smith and Mazeroski as the very best in history). The exact opposite is true for Jeter, he plays much closer to the plate, and so often a ball that other shortstops would make, he either makes a jumping throw that doesn't always catch the runner, or the ball goes past him completely

    With shortstops being so weak in the 80s, the Orioles having one that could hit was a more valuable weapon than the Yankees having a good hitting shortstop this past generation (sort of like when runs were scarcer, slugging percentage was a little more important and onbase percentage a little less)

    The point about Banks was simply illustrating how average seasons should most often not make any impact when ranking all-time greats
    Tom
  • Options
    TomGshotputTomGshotput Posts: 1,358
    I'm not comparing Banks eight years with anything Jeter did. I am comparing Banks' years as a first baseman with your hypothetical statement "if [Jeter] has a league average bat for the next 4-5 years, regardless of what position he plays or how well he plays it, he will probably and rightfully go down as the best SS of the modern era (1920 to present)"

    Again, if years like that are enough to move Jeter up in the rankings, why weren't years like that from Banks enough to move him up in the rankings?
    Tom
  • Options
    greencrowgreencrow Posts: 867
    Happy 40th Derek!
  • Options
    MGLICKERMGLICKER Posts: 7,995 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Happy 40th Derek! >>



    Except for his faking being hit by a pitch, a rather upstanding member of the MLB.
  • Options
    DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I just love the way people here like to attack great players because they play for the Yankee's.

    I just love it!!!!
  • Options
    MGLICKERMGLICKER Posts: 7,995 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I just love the way people here like to attack great players because they play for the Yankee's.

    I just love it!!!! >>



    Especially when they did the bashing 4 years ago!

    image
  • Options
    Skin2Skin2 Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭
    A few things:

    1) Bill Mazeroski and Ozzie Smith are considered the two best defensive players ever...but as pointed out before, their replacements got to just as many balls as they did...so it is also a matter of them simply getting more balls hit their way and being in the right situation, as opposed to being THAT much better defensively as read in their defensive numbers.

    If the two best defensive players EVER can only get to as many balls as replacement level players, then it is pretty hard to put much credence into the defensive numbers.

    Ripken may have been a better defensive SS than Jeter, but I don't see it being by much.

    Here are their career tallies in a few offensive measurements:

    Plate Appearances
    Jeter 12,265
    Ripken 12,883

    Since they have equal length careers, it is acceptable to use career measurements since both players played through old man years, and young man years.

    OPS+
    Jeter 116
    Ripken 112

    Win Probability Added
    Jeter 31.6 wins above average
    Ripken 15.5 wins above average

    Run Expectancy in 24 base/outs situation
    Jeter 392.9 runs above average
    Ripken 143 runs above average


    'un' measurables:
    1. Ripken played more in the tougher era, with tougher pitching, and tougher for the stars to separate themselves from the league average.
    2. Jeter competed against more juiced up players, and he was 'presumably' clean. However, nobody gets a free pass from his era for being clean.

    So we call those to 'un' measurables, even....and they did share 1/3 of their careers playing in the same league environment


    Those three offensive measurements are pretty much all you need to compare players of equal career lengths, and Jeter is clearly superior than Ripken. Even if Ripken is better defensively, it is not enough to overcome the large gap in Win expectancy and Run Expectancy, which are based on the actual MLB play by play data, and are the most accurate stats in all sports in determining the players value to a team.

    Note, I did not use WAR, because the defensive and positional adjustment portions in WAR are like voodoo, spouting out all sorts of unsubstantiated results. Plus the offensive portion in WAR does not account for the men on base hitting events. It treats a double with nobody on as the same value as a double with the bases loaded...and they aren't the same.
  • Options
    MGLICKERMGLICKER Posts: 7,995 ✭✭✭


    << <i> Jeter competed against more juiced up players, and he was 'presumably' clean. However, nobody gets a free pass from his era for being clean. >>



    That is the true tragedy and cost of the PED era. Everyone is suspect. The players that are truly clean have to compete against those that are not and will always be suspect.
Sign In or Register to comment.