Updated 5-2: Shame on the powers that be who decided not to let the public in to the Central States

coinguy1

without buying an early bird badge.

Sometimes, when decisions are made regarding show policies, including days and hours, they end up being supported by dealers but not collectors or favored by collectors but not dealers. In this case, however, it seems like it was bad for both collectors and dealers. I like to play devil's advocate on occasion, but truly can't understand what the thinking was in this case. I am open to the possibility that there was a good reason, but can't fathom it.

I don't know who made the decision, but if you have questions, comments or (polite) complaints, I invite you to email the show's general chairman, Mr. Kevin Foley at: kfoley2@wi.rr.com

Later, I will also send him a link to this thread.

blu62vette

Based on that I am glad on did not go. I could have gotten in early but my business would have needed the public.

IrishMikey

Count me as one collector that changed his plans and did not attend the show due to
the new rules. I am glad I found out in time!

BillJones

I went to Central States once, and it was a mistake. I was still a dealer, and I needed stock.

My plan was to go for just a day and come home to keep the costs down, but the day I went I didn't realize it was PNG day. Only about 10% of bourse was open, and most of guys I liked to deal with were not PNG members. By the time the rest of the bourse opened it was almost time for me to go home. Why the Central States' promoters let the PNG get away with that is beyond me.

My Central States experiece was not great, and I've not been back since.

ambro51

Maybe Im in the minority here, but I support a Dealers only day (days). Nothing spoils the ability to mingle and do business with your fellow professionals like a bunch of citizens and kids walking around who you CANNOT trust. No way can you devote your energies to properly deal with these people, and also meet and work with fellow vendors on a different level.

Connecticoin

<< <i>Maybe Im in the minority here, but I support a Dealers only day (days). Nothing spoils the ability to mingle and do business with your fellow professionals like a bunch of citizens and kids walking around who you CANNOT trust. No way can you devote your energies to properly deal with these people, and also meet and work with fellow vendors on a different level. >>



Interesting concept. Dealers can keep buying from each other in perpetuity -- who needs collectors?

BillJones

<< <i>

<< <i>Maybe Im in the minority here, but I support a Dealers only day (days). Nothing spoils the ability to mingle and do business with your fellow professionals like a bunch of citizens and kids walking around who you CANNOT trust. No way can you devote your energies to properly deal with these people, and also meet and work with fellow vendors on a different level. >>



Interesting concept. Dealers can keep buying from each other in perpetuity -- who needs collectors? >>



The "Super Bourse" day used to be really great at the Baltimore show. For $75 or $100 you could go to the dealers, run through their boxes and buy material without big crowds. Now it's gone. Since I'm not dealer any more, it's not that important to me now, but if I were still in the business I would miss the super bourse.

MidLifeCrisis

<< <i>

<< <i>Maybe Im in the minority here, but I support a Dealers only day (days). Nothing spoils the ability to mingle and do business with your fellow professionals like a bunch of citizens and kids walking around who you CANNOT trust. No way can you devote your energies to properly deal with these people, and also meet and work with fellow vendors on a different level. >>



Interesting concept. Dealers can keep buying from each other in perpetuity -- who needs collectors? >>


I don't think that's what he said.

Connecticoin

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Maybe Im in the minority here, but I support a Dealers only day (days). Nothing spoils the ability to mingle and do business with your fellow professionals like a bunch of citizens and kids walking around who you CANNOT trust. No way can you devote your energies to properly deal with these people, and also meet and work with fellow vendors on a different level. >>



Interesting concept. Dealers can keep buying from each other in perpetuity -- who needs collectors? >>


I don't think that's what he said. >>



Of course not, it's a JOKE. However, it seems that many dealers would prefer it be that way, as if collectors are an irritant.

Catbert

I like to attend shows on weekdays and avoid Saturdays on the belief that if I waited, I would miss out on the chance to get a coin before a big crowd (the competition!) arrives. I also like to take in the initial Heritage auctions. Since Central States limited a free public access of the bourse to Friday only (rather than include Thursday), I decided to pass on this year's show.

TahoeDale

Agree with Mark's criticism. While I would have probably paid the fee on Thursday, I can see that the lack of bourse attendance would hinder many dealers from sales, and maybe even make the average collector not come back on Friday( if he showed up and couldn't get in on Thursday)

I would also like to hear from the organizers the reasons for this policy.

Manorcourtman

Bad idea for collectors!! Bad idea!!!!

Tortuga

I thought it was collector attendance that "made" shows a success or bust. Aren't collectors the driving force of the rare coin marketplace,

and thus, shouldn't their attendance be wooed rather than hindered? Kevin Foley, shame on you!!!

coinguy1

<< <i>I thought it was collector attendance that "made" shows a success or bust. Aren't collectors the driving force of the rare coin marketplace,

and thus, shouldn't their attendance be wooed rather than hindered? Kevin Foley, shame on you!!! >>

For many dealers, a show can be a success by virtue of purchases and/or sales, which can be dealer to dealer transactions or dealer to collector transactions. However, I generally agree with your comments about collectors being the driving force and that their attendance should be encouraged.

I don't know who made the show days/hours decision that I and others are complaining about - perhaps it was not Kevin Foley. But since he is listed as the general chairman, I included his name and email address and sent him a link to this thread.

ThePennyLady

I ran into a couple board members in the elevator this morning and they were headed to a board meeting, so I mentioned to them that they should read the forum comments before the meeting, but they said they didn't have time since the meeting started shortly. So I gave them the quick version of how most dealers and collectors felt about the lack of public days, and having 2 dealer days. They said they have already heard the same comments. I asked them to please present the comments to the board, and that they should listen seriously to what the "people" want.

Greeniejr

There are several people of power and influence in the industry who will be dealing with this situation. Hopefully this won't happen again. If it does, chances are the days of the CSNS show being a large national show are done and it will become a large to mid size regional show. Just my 2 cents

Shortgapbob

Add us as another dealer who wants to see this changed. How many days can you possibly have a set up for?

illini420

I've actually considered traveling to one of the CSNS shows someday since I'm from the Midwest originally and could make a vacation out of it. Glad I know I can't get in until the end when certain dealers are likely packing up and leaving. Oh well, at least I still have the Chicago ANA shows to give me a good excuse to head back to the homeland

RYK

<< <i>There are several people of power and influence in the industry who will be dealing with this situation. Hopefully this won't happen again. If it does, chances are the days of the CSNS show being a large national show are done and it will become a large to mid size regional show. Just my 2 cents >>


With the ANA show entrenched in Chicago for the next few years, do we really need a spring CSNS in the Midwest?

Bear

This is the deal. This is a trial ,to see if collectors can be done away with altogether.
Dealers will sell coins back and forth among themselves at ever higher prices.
thus every dealer will make money and eventually all coins will be worth
1,000,000 dollars, without ever feeling the caressing touch of a collector. What
a fantastic business plan.Simple, fast and neat.

kurtdog

<< <i>This is the deal. This is a trial ,to see if collectors can be done away with altogether.
Dealers will sell coins back and forth among themselves at ever higher prices.
thus every dealer will make money and eventually all coins will be worth
1,000,000 dollars, without ever feeling the caressing tough of a collector. What
a fantastic business plan.Simple, fast and neat. >>


A plan to drive up prices in an economy where a growing number of collectors don't have two nickels they could rub together...now there's a plan!

PQpeace

1 dealer day was enough..
I hope next year things will change.

leothelyon

Most dealers make their money through clientele sales.
Dealers travel, search and save coins for their best buyers. hence; dealer days
Most collectors who attend late are stragglers who have little or no connections w/dealers, have little money, don't spend much, end up with overpriced 2nd (hand me down) quality coins.
Money talks! Of course, everyone knew that one.
The key to getting into dealer day shows, many times at little cost, is to look like one with briefcase.

Just some food for thought.


Leo

dorancoins

<< <i>

<< <i>I thought it was collector attendance that "made" shows a success or bust. Aren't collectors the driving force of the rare coin marketplace,

and thus, shouldn't their attendance be wooed rather than hindered? Kevin Foley, shame on you!!! >>

For many dealers, a show can be a success by virtue of purchases and/or sales, which can be dealer to dealer transactions or dealer to collector transactions. However, I generally agree with your comments about collectors being the driving force and that their attendance should be encouraged.

I don't know who made the show days/hours decision that I and others are complaining about - perhaps it was not Kevin Foley. But since he is listed as the general chairman, I included his name and email address and sent him a link to this thread. >>



You can also blame Patti Finner, ex-president and deputy chairperson, and Jerry Lebo, bourse chairman and secretary as well! Too much elitism and cronyism are polluting that organization, as it is acting like an ANA wanna-be. To be honest, the ANA has more respect for its members and more class than these guys. They need a major-league regime change just like what happened in the ANA back in 2007, but the chance of that is zero.

dorancoins

<< <i>

<< <i>There are several people of power and influence in the industry who will be dealing with this situation. Hopefully this won't happen again. If it does, chances are the days of the CSNS show being a large national show are done and it will become a large to mid size regional show. Just my 2 cents >>


With the ANA show entrenched in Chicago for the next few years, do we really need a spring CSNS in the Midwest? >>



You pose a good question. And might I add that there is the ILNA show in September as well.

MrEureka

You can also blame Patti Finner, ex-president and deputy chairperson, and Jerry Lebo, bourse chairman and secretary as well! Too much elitism and cronyism are polluting that organization, as it is acting like an ANA wanna-be.

How did "elitism and cronyism" lead to this scheduling blunder? (I call it a blunder because I don't think anyone is going to defend it anymore.)

coinguy1

I received the following reply from Kevin Foley, which he said to feel free to share with others:

"Mark:

The change in the schedule for the CSNS convention this year, i.e. no Thursday public hours, was made in response to booth holder complaints in the past that there were insufficient hours allotted for purely dealer to dealer business. The change was made by the Board specifically to be responsive to these past booth holder concerns.

At the recently concluded Milwaukee 71st Anniversary Convention an even larger number of booth holders, as well as public attendees, made known to both myself and elected officials that they felt the new schedule employed this year did not meet their needs.

CSNS genuinely endeavors to be sensitive to the overall needs of our convention attendees and participants, some of whom have differing and conflicting objectives motivating their attendance. Our decisions are made on the basis of an effort to strike a balance between these sometimes disparate objectives. The reactions to our schedule this year demonstrate that this can sometimes be more of a challenge than anticipated. What seemed quite a reasonable decision in theory, did not prove to be as reasonable as expected on an operational level.

At our Friday Board meeting I conveyed the concerns similar to yours that had been brought to my attention to the Board and recommended that we revert to a more traditional Thursday-Friday-Saturday public schedule. The Board accepted this recommendation. For our 2011 72nd Anniversary Convention at the Donald E. Stephens Convention Center in Rosemont, IL, our schedule will be:

Wednesday, April 27:
PNG Day 10AM-5PM

Thursday: April 28
Booth Holder Move In: 7:30AM-9AM
Professional Preview/Early Birds: 9AM-2PM
Public: 2PM-7PM

Friday, April 29
Public: 10AM-6PM (Booth Holders/Early Birds at 9AM)

Saturday, April 30
Public: 10AM-5PM (Booth Holders/Early Birds at 9AM)


I trust that this change will meet with a favorable response. Having been associated with the Central States Numismatic Society in one capacity or another since 1980, I do want to assure you that I have always found our Board collectively, no matter who the elected officials may be at any given point in time, to be genuinely interested in hearing about and being responsive to the expressed needs of our members, whether they be dealers or collectors, as well as other interested members of the numismatic community. The CSNS Board has never been possessed of an inflated sense of its own self importance, with associated defensive and rigid responses to expressed concerns about its decisions.

We can't please everyone, but we do endeavor to be fair, reasonable, flexible and responsive. You might want to consider how many other numismatic event sponsors or organizations would have responded as promptly as our Board did to the issues raised by you and others and reversed itself so quickly and decisively when it became clear that the concerns expressed were correct and deserved to be implemented.

Please feel free to share this response with others.


Kevin Foley - Convention Chairman
Central States Numismatic Society
P.O. Box 589
Milwaukee, WI 53201
Ph: (414) 421-3484
FAX: (414) 423-0343
E-mail: kfoley2@wi.rr.com
Website: www.centralstates.info "

Shamika

I understand a number of dealers had already packed up and left by the time the show opened to the public. How pathetic!

sinin1

on the last half of the last day at shows, many dealers are packing or gone as well

robkool

Shame on them... A bad decision on their part.

WTCG

<< <i>I understand a number of dealers had already packed up and left by the time the show opened to the public. How pathetic! >>



Pathetic? Hardly, especially if those dealers had never intended to deal with the public or if the public were there mostly to look and admire but not to buy. Most of the dealers who usually pack up early from shows are the dealers who don't ever interact with the public. Therefore whether they're there or not on a Saturday doesn't directly affect the retail crowd.

For the record, I like the idea of allowing the public to enter the show at 2pm on Thursday afternoon.

ProofCents

It sounds like the issue has been adressed for the future

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>I received the following reply from Kevin Foley, which he said to feel free to share with others:

"Mark:

The change in the schedule for the CSNS convention this year, i.e. no Thursday public hours, was made in response to booth holder complaints in the past that there were insufficient hours allotted for purely dealer to dealer business. The change was made by the Board specifically to be responsive to these past booth holder concerns.

At the recently concluded Milwaukee 71st Anniversary Convention an even larger number of booth holders, as well as public attendees, made known to both myself and elected officials that they felt the new schedule employed this year did not meet their needs.

CSNS genuinely endeavors to be sensitive to the overall needs of our convention attendees and participants, some of whom have differing and conflicting objectives motivating their attendance. Our decisions are made on the basis of an effort to strike a balance between these sometimes disparate objectives. The reactions to our schedule this year demonstrate that this can sometimes be more of a challenge than anticipated. What seemed quite a reasonable decision in theory, did not prove to be as reasonable as expected on an operational level.

At our Friday Board meeting I conveyed the concerns similar to yours that had been brought to my attention to the Board and recommended that we revert to a more traditional Thursday-Friday-Saturday public schedule. The Board accepted this recommendation. For our 2011 72nd Anniversary Convention at the Donald E. Stephens Convention Center in Rosemont, IL, our schedule will be:

Wednesday, April 27:
PNG Day 10AM-5PM

Thursday: April 28
Booth Holder Move In: 7:30AM-9AM
Professional Preview/Early Birds: 9AM-2PM
Public: 2PM-7PM

Friday, April 29
Public: 10AM-6PM (Booth Holders/Early Birds at 9AM)

Saturday, April 30
Public: 10AM-5PM (Booth Holders/Early Birds at 9AM)


I trust that this change will meet with a favorable response. Having been associated with the Central States Numismatic Society in one capacity or another since 1980, I do want to assure you that I have always found our Board collectively, no matter who the elected officials may be at any given point in time, to be genuinely interested in hearing about and being responsive to the expressed needs of our members, whether they be dealers or collectors, as well as other interested members of the numismatic community. The CSNS Board has never been possessed of an inflated sense of its own self importance, with associated defensive and rigid responses to expressed concerns about its decisions.

We can't please everyone, but we do endeavor to be fair, reasonable, flexible and responsive. You might want to consider how many other numismatic event sponsors or organizations would have responded as promptly as our Board did to the issues raised by you and others and reversed itself so quickly and decisively when it became clear that the concerns expressed were correct and deserved to be implemented.

Please feel free to share this response with others.


Kevin Foley - Convention Chairman
Central States Numismatic Society
P.O. Box 589
Milwaukee, WI 53201
Ph: (414) 421-3484
FAX: (414) 423-0343
E-mail: kfoley2@wi.rr.com
Website: www.centralstates.info " >>



That's excellent news from my perspective.

RYK

<< <i> You can also blame Patti Finner, ex-president and deputy chairperson, and Jerry Lebo, bourse chairman and secretary as well! Too much elitism and cronyism are polluting that organization, as it is acting like an ANA wanna-be.

How did "elitism and cronyism" lead to this scheduling blunder? (I call it a blunder because I don't think anyone is going to defend it anymore.) >>


Good question!

Speaking of elitism, though, I always thought that these PNG days were a waste of my time, as a collector. Do dealers favor them? Can we dispense with these, as well?

tmot99

<< <i>

<< <i>I understand a number of dealers had already packed up and left by the time the show opened to the public. How pathetic! >>



Pathetic? Hardly, especially if those dealers had never intended to deal with the public or if the public were there mostly to look and admire but not to buy. Most of the dealers who usually pack up early from shows are the dealers who don't ever interact with the public. Therefore whether they're there or not on a Saturday doesn't directly affect the retail crowd.

For the record, I like the idea of allowing the public to enter the show at 2pm on Thursday afternoon. >>



Then why buy a booth? Why not buy the early bird pass and walk the show? You can carry what you want to sell around. I assume that if you are coming for the purpose you suggested that you don't have so much stuff as to not be able to carry it with you, even if it is in a briefcase with wheels. There are lots of dealers that don't have tables yet walk and buy and sell to the other dealers.

bushmaster8

<< <i>I understand a number of dealers had already packed up and left by the time the show opened to the public. How pathetic! >>



"...a number of dealers..." ?

That is an unfair statement. What is "a number of dealers"?

I don't think there were more than 2 or 3 empty tables on Friday. About the same as one would expect at any convention of similar size.

Shamika

<< <i>

<< <i>I understand a number of dealers had already packed up and left by the time the show opened to the public. How pathetic! >>



"...a number of dealers..." ?

That is an unfair statement. What is "a number of dealers"?

I don't think there were more than 2 or 3 empty tables on Friday. About the same as one would expect at any convention of similar size. >>



If indeed it were only 2 or 3 tables, then I retract my statement. Emergencies come up that require people to leave planned events early.

RYK

Here's another thought:

Why not have PNG morning? 9-12 or 9-1, then dealer set-up for the rest of the day, and the dealer morning on the following day, if necessary. A 7 hour PNG day has always seemed about 5 hours too many to me.

claychaser

I lile to see the PNG days just to see dealers in suits and ties instead of Hawaiian shirts! (The mustard stains are optional)

PawPaul

let the dealers trade among themselves ..........see how long they survive without collectors buying their stock

I got to the show @ 8:45 a.m and was told they don't open until 10 a.m

so I wondered around like a chum waiting to be fed at the trough

then , with the lobby chalk full of people with pockets full of money -we all waited until the clock struck 10 exactly -

Bull Sheet

nothing makes me more phissd then having to wait for no reason other then to let the dealers buy up all the great stuff b4 I can even get in the door

and oh yes - I didn't spend a nickle .....except on a 3$ sodie pop