<< <i>We have several people who monitor these boards. Even so it's difficult to read every post and things do slip through.
Since the beginning of the year, when I finally got so fed up that I posted the rules, I have removed dozens of threads and banned at least a couple dozen posters.
We are committed to making this a friendly and educational community service.
If you see something that you believe is inappropriate or violates one of the forum rules, feel free to PM me.
Don >>
Don,
I for one would like to thank you for the work you do here on these boards. Maintaining the constructive atmosphere is an invaluable service to the collecting community. That said, I think we are all occasionally guilty, (well, maybe call it a guilty pleasure) of posting mildly flammable material here in the name of sarcasm, harmless venting or merely pointing out the occasional inconsistency. I like to think that many of us here are critical thinkers, and in spite of the occasionally hurtful comment, that type of thinking is crucial to strong development in a community.
I sincerely hope that we are being careful not to foster an atmosphere where people are afraid to speak their minds, giving benefit of the doubt to those whose comments occasionally straddle the line of what is acceptable.
As for those whose unfortunate comments only serve to constantly instigate and infuriate, banning does, for me at least, seem an appropriate measure.
My PM function has been working? I'm confused as the last time you brought something like this to my attention was July 19. 2009 @ 5.39PM The offending post was deleted by me within one minute on July 19. 2009 @ 5.40PM
Forum AdministratorPSA & PSA/DNA ForumModerator@collectors.com | p 800.325.1121 | PSAcard.com
And we thought you were just too busy reading the new phonebook...................MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Well, I see or have seen just what you are talking about a couple of times in the past few days. A couple of different posts seem like "soft spam." >>
You have either directly or indirectly accused me of spam on more than one occasion in the past few months. Provide a single (as in just one) instance in which I have done that and I will apologize. On the other hand, if you are unable to do so - and I already know you wont be able to - stop taking baseless shots at me.
Feld, you're the one who won't let things die. i sent you a PM saying as much back on March 8th when my attempts to avoid you resulted in your continual posting of snide little remarks similar to the "alterior" one you made here. you just can't let things be, but when i swing back you get PO'd. tough luck, bucko.
to your point of me proving anything, the stuff you have a guilty conscience about is ancient, it all took place years ago when you worked for a West Coast firm and had the nasty habit of linking their website and coins that they were offering for sale in threads you'd start. a few of us saw through the ploy and you backed off while never directly admitting that you had done anything wrong. a savvy guy like you knew what he was doing, you're just too proud to admit it. so yeah, i have accused you in the past of spam and will continue to bring it up so long as you swing first and until you can man up and admit your guilt.
that's simple, right?? at least it should be for a man.
------------------------- Stuff for sale.
Huh?
Keets,
Just curious as to what the difference is between your statement regarding Mark above and your "Stuff for Sale" link, or for that matter my link to my website below?
I think most of us have posted a photo here and there for things we may have for sale. I know for me though when I have posted a photo it is because it's an interesting piece, a challenging coin as to grade, or something I hope is educational for those who read these boards. If that is soft spam then so be it. But my intent is to share, educate and foster positive discussion regarding coins. That's why I am here and motivates me to participate.
<< <i>Just curious as to what the difference is between your statement regarding Mark above and your "Stuff for Sale" link, or for that matter my link to my website below? >>
One's below the sig line and the other isn't? Only a guess.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Well, I see or have seen just what you are talking about a couple of times in the past few days. A couple of different posts seem like "soft spam." >>
Can you provide an example of 'soft spam'? >>
You thread on the 1885-CC GSA that just happen to end up for sale on Ebay 24 hours later......I would consider that soft span as your clearly hightlighting a coin that is going on sale soon....hard spam might be considered a coin that is already for sale and is posted to a "look at my coin" thread
Waaay too much whining going on here. I for one, love to see collections of high grade coins and if they are up for sale, I don't care as I am not buying them. If you don't like a post, don't read it. And I miss Laura as well, even if I will never buy coins in that price category.
There is a fine line between collecting and selling at times. Things have calmed down here, mostly and I have not been offended by any post recently with regard to a coin perhaps being for sale somewhere. Some people are too sensitive and this hot button of theirs is not the hot button of very many others.
Or to put it more clearly 'get a grip and let it go"
Just my 2 cents
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
I think there's a lot of "whining about whining" here, too. This place is legendary for simply dismissing someone else's complaints or concerns as "whining" if you don't agree with the validity of the complaint. Pretty insulting, IMO.
I think there's a lot of "whining about whining" here, too. This place is legendary for simply dismissing someone else's complaints or concerns as "whining" if you don't agree with the validity of the complaint. Pretty insulting, IMO. >>
+1
And if I play by the established rules and don't start posts about my coins that are for sale or will be for sale in 24 hours then why should other folks get a free pass? You see there are lots of us that sell and we want a fair playing field within the rules posted by PCGS as we are competing for collector dollars....if we don't get a fair shake then it's completely justifiable that we make mention of it here so that the powers that be are aware of what's going on.
<< <i>Well, I see or have seen just what you are talking about a couple of times in the past few days. A couple of different posts seem like "soft spam." >>
Can you provide an example of 'soft spam'? >>
You thread on the 1885-CC GSA that just happen to end up for sale on Ebay 24 hours later......I would consider that soft span as your clearly hightlighting a coin that is going on sale soon....hard spam might be considered a coin that is already for sale and is posted to a "look at my coin" thread >>
Point taken.
Of course, I had 4 other coins that were also coming up for auction within 24 hours and 5 that were running at the time, none of which I posted here. And while we're talking about those coins, I didn't state that the 85-CC was for sale, where it would be for sale, when it would be for sale.....nothing. Correct?
I think I find myself now in a situation where I'm going to be damned if I do, damned if I don't with some posters here on this forum. Lemme explain, I'll give you two examples.
As you all know I recently sold my toned morgan set to Legend. Most of the coins had NEVER been photographed and displayed here. Dozens of forum members wrote me asking for photos but I couldn't provide a single one. After the sale was long over (a sale I did not advertise in advance) I began finding photos of my former coins on the internet, began copying them for my personal records, and began posting them here for conversation and for those who requested copies. What kind of negative comments do I get? You're just showing off here GSA......You're doing spam-like posts here GSAGUY. Really, spamming coins I no longer own? Okay.
Now, most of you know that over the next year or so I plan on selling select coins from my extensive GSA collection. I've stated that here. And I've decided to sell via a variety of means DIRECTLY TO COLLECTORS, not to a single dealer as I did with my other collection. This collection too has never been photographed, ever. Most the coins in my collection have not seen the light of day for 15 to 20 years and I suspect most will be eagerly received by the collecting public.
I tested the water, so to speak, with Greattoning for several weeks, but said nothing here about those coins being mine. Dick himself did not know the coins were mine because I was submitting them through a good buddy of mine who also has an extensive collection and knows Dick. Numerous forum members wrote me asking if those coins were mine and I found myself in the awkard position of having to figure out how to claim they weren't. In a nutshell, I didn't want to give anyone bidding on the coins information that was not available to all bidders.
I finally reveal the coins are/were mine and posted one, an unusual 90-CC GSA textile toned on the BST forum and what happens? A forum member here complains that I've got it posted in the BST trade forum AND that Greattoning has two active threads about his auctions running too! What's really funny to me though about that complaint is that I have yet to have a single conversation with Dick about the coins of mine he's running. That's right, I've neither spoken to nor written to Dick about the coins. All correspondence has been handled via my buddy.
Anyway, when I finally received the photo of the 85-CC the other night I was so blown-away and proud of the coin that I posted it here without comment because I believed others would like to see it. Is it possible that someone saw it who otherwise wouldn't have and might buy it. Yeah, that's possible. Two posters wrote me asking if they could buy it outright but I had to politely turn them down because it was already in line to be run and I want to give everyone equal shot at the coins Dick is running for me. Having said that, let's be honest here, those who are interested in buying coins from my collection and also frequent this forum now know where to find them and know that he's running weekly auctions.
So what are the rules here? Can't post a photo of coin I no longer own? Can't post a photo of coin without comment if it's to be sold within 24 hours, 24 days, 24 months? Am I allowed to post any coins I own that might someday be available for sale?
Coins have always been fun for me, but if we can't talk about coins, post photos of our own coins, look at other's coins, compare notes about coins, then why are we here?
I can see both sides of the street on this one. The selfish side of my wants you to post since I have a personal grudge against Ebay and PayPal and don't visit their sites or services 99% of the time. If you didn't post them here I wouldn't see them. I can see why other sellers would have a gripe as it does in theory create an unfair advantage.
Besides, I like my spam soft...............MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I can see both sides of the street on this one. The selfish side of my wants you to post since I have a personal grudge against Ebay and PayPal and don't visit their sites or services 99% of the time. If you didn't post them here I wouldn't see them. I can see why other sellers would have a gripe as it does in theory create an unfair advantage.
Besides, I like my spam soft...............MJ >>
So, if I've got a linky in my sigline to any coins of mine that might be for sale, am I hard-spamming, soft-spamming, pseudo-spamming, smoke-and-mirror-spamming, what?
<< <i>I can see both sides of the street on this one. The selfish side of my wants you to post since I have a personal grudge against Ebay and PayPal and don't visit their sites or services 99% of the time. If you didn't post them here I wouldn't see them. I can see why other sellers would have a gripe as it does in theory create an unfair advantage.
Besides, I like my spam soft...............MJ >>
So, if I've got a linky in my sigline to any coins of mine that might be for sale, am I hard-spamming, soft-spamming, pseudo-spamming, smoke-and-mirror-spamming, what? >>
Can't argue with Bayou logic
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Just curious as to what the difference is between your statement regarding Mark above and your "Stuff for Sale" link, or for that matter my link to my website below?
what was being done was very blatant; a thread would be started obstensibly to discuss a coin, a link would be provided to the coin's picture and anyone clicking the link would be taken to the firm that Feld worked for. it was repeated a number of times to the point where it seemed purposeful and only stopped after a few members made mention of it. as Lee stated above, a link in a sigline is acceptable.
there have been other members who have done the sort of thing that i mentioned in the OP, coming here to "alert" us to their collection being on sale and i suppose it's a no-win situation since they can just as easily use a shill. there are some that are worse, though. another member had the bad habit of posting pictures of toned coins here(eg. PCGS PR67 1970 Jefferson Nickel) and all you had to do was go to eBay, enter that information and find the coin. these are just a few examples, despite what some think i'm not here 24/7 and don't look for the stuff. most of what i've mentioned has been seen by others and is obvious.
for my own part, i think it's treading a fine line allowing us to have links in our sig-lines, but most agree that it's a good thing so i follow suit. one thing i try to be careful about is ewven posting a picture or talking about an item i have for sale. that's the "soft core" type of thing that i figure Ms. M. was meaning.
<< <i>Well, I see or have seen just what you are talking about a couple of times in the past few days. A couple of different posts seem like "soft spam." >>
Can you provide an example of 'soft spam'? >>
You thread on the 1885-CC GSA that just happen to end up for sale on Ebay 24 hours later......I would consider that soft span as your clearly hightlighting a coin that is going on sale soon....hard spam might be considered a coin that is already for sale and is posted to a "look at my coin" thread >>
Point taken.
Of course, I had 4 other coins that were also coming up for auction within 24 hours and 5 that were running at the time, none of which I posted here. And while we're talking about those coins, I didn't state that the 85-CC was for sale, where it would be for sale, when it would be for sale.....nothing. Correct?
>>
Unlike some here I do not consider myself a member of the forum police or possey or whatever we want to call it today and I have never notified a moderator of anything......you simply asked for an example of soft span and I thought I would oblige you with what I felt was a very cler cut example....some will agree and some will not. I think that the pcgs forum is a better place if we have toned experts on here like yourself that built collections before it was envogue with the battle creeks. I have thoroughly enjoyed seeing images of your coins posted on here since I had heard the tales of wonderment but never had the privledge of seeing them.
but....and lets be clear about this.....I am in direct competition for collectors dollars since I only sell toned coins and these coins are sold on Ebay...and most of these coins are Morgan silver dollars so yes I do have a dog in this fight. The coins I have been selling without question are not of the caliber of what larry is selling off ebay and most of the GSAs I have seen Dick selling are nicer than what I have been selling....but I have kept my Ebay for sale items in the B/S/T section including some really cute coins that I would love to have shown off becuase I knew that within days of purchasing them, they would be up on ebay. Plus I have an established track record and have been actively posting about coin related topics that have nothing to do with toners or for sale items since 2001 so it is most likely clear to most that I don't use the forums as a sales platform.
Hey you might not be either and that's cool but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then people are going to perceive it's a duck whether it really is or not. I for one hope you stick around after the sale of your coins as I have been a minority toned lover on these forums for fair to long
Hard spam soft spam, etc....Yikes! I just enjoy seeing cool coins... Doesn`t matter to me for sale or not for sale or what ever if someone takes the time to post something cool on hear i appreciate it...Just my opinion...
In response to the original title of the thread, perhaps the moderators think the current level of discourse is fine. I will look to see if any future threads go poof for inappropriate selling. If things stay the same, that certain provides a message to all.
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
If it's blatant, it's one thing, but to try to whine/police everything when you don't even directly pay to provide the service that is the forums, is just laughable. Don/PCGS/CU can absolutely allow/deny what they want on the forum as they foot the bill.
If someone wants to show off a new purchase and it later is offered for sale, so what?
If your major complaint is that you are 'competing for collector dollars' and it's unfair...well, anyone who's that scared of a random thread here taking significant business away from them needs to rethink their business model.
If someone wants to show off a new purchase and it later is offered for sale, so what?
If your major complaint is that you are 'competing for collector dollars' and it's unfair...well, anyone who's that scared of a random thread here taking significant business away from them needs to rethink their business model.
Get a grip. Have a brewski, chill out. >>
I'll drink to that! (but then, i'll drink to most anything)
Perhaps those with links to ebay, items for sale and miniature billboards in their posts need to look at themselves before pointing the "spam" fingers at others. How did that song from the 60's/70's go......"Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself." There is so much information to be gathered from these forums that are provided by our hosts for free. And yet there is a core group of negative people who persist in dragging it into the gutter. How sad.
Larry L.
Autism Awareness: There is no limit to the good you can do, if you don't care who gets the credit.
<< <i>Perhaps those with links to ebay, items for sale and miniature billboards in their posts need to look at themselves before pointing the "spam" fingers at others. How did that song from the 60's/70's go......"Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself." There is so much information to be gathered from these forums that are provided by our hosts for free. And yet there is a core group of negative people who persist in dragging it into the gutter. How sad.
<< <i>ziggy29 - I think there's a lot of "whining about whining" here, too. This place is legendary for simply dismissing someone else's complaints or concerns as "whining" if you don't agree with the validity of the complaint. Pretty insulting, IMO. >>
<< <i>kryptonitecomics - And if I play by the established rules and don't start posts about my coins that are for sale or will be for sale in 24 hours then why should other folks get a free pass? You see there are lots of us that sell and we want a fair playing field within the rules posted by PCGS as we are competing for collector dollars....if we don't get a fair shake then it's completely justifiable that we make mention of it here so that the powers that be are aware of what's going on. >>
Ah, the almighty "collector dollar." Reminds me of the unfortunate reality that there's still a mindset out there and among us that looks upon us all as just so many consumers. Maybe that explains the "whining about whining," when, gosh forbid, intelligent life happens from time to time to emerge in one of these so-called "soft promotional" threads only to later have to discover to its peril it's rather been butting heads with the attention span of a gnat. When a thread can't field intelligent discourse, free, robust and open expression, call it what you will, that's typically the first sign there's something insidious lurking underneath. Nobody put a rope around any of our necks and dragged any of us over here, we're rather, here, all, on our own free will. Let's try and have a little respect for that fact, and not waste our time, and keep the selling in the PCGS forum it's designed to be in, and quit the crude and otherwise clever attempts at indirect selling, here. That, IMHO, would be real big of us all. Those signature links are nothing, IMHO, as, if they're anything, they're mere alerts one happens to be "open for business."
As a collector I'd much rather have someone like GSAGUY post pics of his coins along with the background of the series and all... I see coins that I'd likely never see and learn a lot in the process. I could care less if it's for sale or not.
To have Keets or Manofcoins come out and gripe about it is what is upsetting...
If I recall correctly Keets was the one bragging about his shop taking advantage of a guy who didn't know what he had... seems like it was a very rare Barber coin. Now me as a collector, I'd like to think a coin shop would have enough class to let the seller know they had something special... or if that wasn't possible at least don't go bragging about it on a public board.
And MOC... seems to me there was a colorful history with you. Didn't you admit to toning coins in the PCGS Rattler slabs? I think you tried to make it right though.... after you were caught.
I know enough to know that my opinion doesn't matter here and I certainly don't have the connections to keep me from being banned but before you two pillars of the coin community decide to gripe about someone who I'd think most see as a net positive you might try looking in the mirror.
If I recall correctly Keets was the one bragging about his shop taking advantage of a guy who didn't know what he had... seems like it was a very rare Barber coin.
evidentally you recall several points incorrectly since there was nothing intended in the OP of that thread which was bragging. it was only the twisting, turning and high moral ground wrestling of certain members which put that twist into the whole thing. reread the thread if you're uncertain about the specifics, which you clearly are on all points in your post.
oh yeah, one other teeny, wheeny point-----it wasn't my shop, i was working for a friend, another point made clear by me but twisted by other members. after you reread the thread and get your head on right about what actually took place please let me know via PM if you're still upset.
<< <i>If I recall correctly Keets was the one bragging about his shop taking advantage of a guy who didn't know what he had... seems like it was a very rare Barber coin.
evidentally you recall several points incorrectly since there was nothing intended in the OP of that thread which was bragging. it was only the twisting, turning and high moral ground wrestling of certain members which put that twist into the whole thing. reread the thread if you're uncertain about the specifics, which you clearly are on all points in your post.
oh yeah, one other teeny, wheeny point-----it wasn't my shop, i was working for a friend, another point made clear by me but twisted by other members. after you reread the thread and get your head on right about what actually took place please let me know via PM if you're still upset. >>
Richard, don't bother re-reading the thread in order to "get your head on right about what actually took place " - it appears that each post by the OP was edited and/or deleted.
there you go, Feld. start it up again!! keep going on like this, it's much easier then being a "man" and admitting you spammed the board way back when. just remember, you are the one that won't let things die down, you just have to keep picking and picking. that's just the way you are, much easier than admitting a mistake.
<< <i>there you go, Feld. start it up again!! keep going on like this, it's much easier then being a "man" and admitting you spammed the board way back when. just remember, you are the one that won't let things die down, you just have to keep picking and picking. that's just the way you are, much easier than admitting a mistake. >>
I didn't think what I was doing approximately 6 or 7(?) years ago was spam, but you (Laura, and I don't know who else) did, so I stopped. If it was spam, I apologize to the forum for what I did 6 or 7(?) years ago. And I'm the one who wont let things die down.
<< <i>there you go, Feld. start it up again!! keep going on like this, it's much easier then being a "man" and admitting you spammed the board way back when. just remember, you are the one that won't let things die down, you just have to keep picking and picking. that's just the way you are, much easier than admitting a mistake. >>
I didn't think what I was doing approximately 6 or 7(?) years ago was spam, but you (Laura, and I don't know who else) did, so I stopped. If it was spam, I apologize to the forum for what I did 6 or 7(?) years ago. And I'm the one who wont let things die down. >>
The statute of limitations for board spamming is 10 years, so we can continue to bring it up for 3 more.
I didn't think what I was doing approximately 6 or 7 years ago was spam, but you, Laura (and I don't know who else) did, so I stopped. If it was spam, I apologize to the forum for what I did 6 or 7 years ago. And I'm the one who wont let things die
no, you're the one that until today has been unwilling to admit a mistake which you've kept insisting i was fabricating and wrongly accusing you of. now you admit the truth in what i have been saying all along, so perhaps we can stop this insane, childish little game. as for the thread reference, please find the thread for me and i can clear up any misconceptions, wrong interpretations or what-have-you to set the record straight. i feel that you know what was what in that whole thing, but why pass up an oppurtunity to stir the pot, right??
just remember, i have already laid things to rest and have contiued to harangue you simply because you insist on trying to embarrass or discredit me when you see the chance. there's really no need for that, i can do those things to myself without your help. hopefully this an end.
As a collector I'd much rather have someone like GSAGUY post pics of his coins along with the background of the series and all... I see coins that I'd likely never see and learn a lot in the process. I could care less if it's for sale or not.
To have Keets or Manofcoins come out and gripe about it is what is upsetting...
If I recall correctly Keets was the one bragging about his shop taking advantage of a guy who didn't know what he had... seems like it was a very rare Barber coin. Now me as a collector, I'd like to think a coin shop would have enough class to let the seller know they had something special... or if that wasn't possible at least don't go bragging about it on a public board.
And MOC... seems to me there was a colorful history with you. Didn't you admit to toning coins in the PCGS Rattler slabs? I think you tried to make it right though.... after you were caught.
I know enough to know that my opinion doesn't matter here and I certainly don't have the connections to keep me from being banned but before you two pillars of the coin community decide to gripe about someone who I'd think most see as a net positive you might try looking in the mirror. >>
So it appears that those who "cast the first stone" were not without sin after all..................or perhaps just suffering from amnesia. While I find this equally annoying and upsetting, the fact remains that a real decent guy who had so much to offer got so disgusted that he left the forum. I will really miss GSAGUY....his photos, his knowledge, and his humor. In the meantime, look at the postings of the titans who are perpetually arguing over what happened so long ago. Which would you rather read about? Which postings contribute more to this hobby?
Larry L.
Autism Awareness: There is no limit to the good you can do, if you don't care who gets the credit.
<< <i>If I recall correctly Keets was the one bragging about his shop taking advantage of a guy who didn't know what he had... seems like it was a very rare Barber coin.
evidentally you recall several points incorrectly since there was nothing intended in the OP of that thread which was bragging. it was only the twisting, turning and high moral ground wrestling of certain members which put that twist into the whole thing. reread the thread if you're uncertain about the specifics, which you clearly are on all points in your post.
oh yeah, one other teeny, wheeny point-----it wasn't my shop, i was working for a friend, another point made clear by me but twisted by other members. after you reread the thread and get your head on right about what actually took place please let me know via PM if you're still upset. >>
If I recalled things incorrectly regarding you then I apologize. So it wasn't your shop and it wasn't you who stiffed the old guy.... in my mind it was you that originally posted the topic and I guess I linked you to an event that I felt strongly was wrong.
I would still respectfully disagree with you (as I noted in the response to your PM) as I don't feel that any of GSAGUY's posts were intended to "spam" his coins. Coins like that don't need spamming. They should be posted about... photographed... and discussed at length. I'm sure that just seeing pics of them made a lot of people feel good and might have even attracted some new collectors in to the hobby. To call him out as a "spammer".... just not right in my opinion. I guess we can agree to disagree on it.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
As a collector I'd much rather have someone like GSAGUY post pics of his coins along with the background of the series and all... I see coins that I'd likely never see and learn a lot in the process. I could care less if it's for sale or not.
To have Keets or Manofcoins come out and gripe about it is what is upsetting...
If I recall correctly Keets was the one bragging about his shop taking advantage of a guy who didn't know what he had... seems like it was a very rare Barber coin. Now me as a collector, I'd like to think a coin shop would have enough class to let the seller know they had something special... or if that wasn't possible at least don't go bragging about it on a public board.
And MOC... seems to me there was a colorful history with you. Didn't you admit to toning coins in the PCGS Rattler slabs? I think you tried to make it right though.... after you were caught.
I know enough to know that my opinion doesn't matter here and I certainly don't have the connections to keep me from being banned but before you two pillars of the coin community decide to gripe about someone who I'd think most see as a net positive you might try looking in the mirror. >>
Rich, FWIW (and probably not much, if this is typical), I think I agree with your comments, 99%. The 1% is, that leaves the problem Shane Kryptonitecomics, who's been on these boards since 2001, observed; namely, that there are a lot of dealers and otherwise sellers on eBay, etc., who'd most assuredly love to engage in that same "soft sell" practice of simply showing off their lovely coins (which, BTW, as a matter of no small coincidence, just so also happen to be looking for a buyer) to us all, but that have had enough of a sense of fair play so as to restrain themselves, in such. They see others getting away with it, though, what are they supposed to think? And, there must be hundreds of people in that position on these boards, think about it.
Sell where you're supposed to sell, and talk where you're supposed to talk. It's not quantum mechanics, folks...
EDIT: OK, I just read what came before this, I'll go have that beer, now, here's mud in your eye and all that...
Comments
<< <i>We have several people who monitor these boards. Even so it's difficult to read every post and things do slip through.
Since the beginning of the year, when I finally got so fed up that I posted the rules, I have removed dozens of threads and banned at least a couple dozen posters.
We are committed to making this a friendly and educational community service.
If you see something that you believe is inappropriate or violates one of the forum rules, feel free to PM me.
Don >>
Don,
I for one would like to thank you for the work you do here on these boards. Maintaining the constructive atmosphere is an invaluable service to the collecting community. That said, I think we are all occasionally guilty, (well, maybe call it a guilty pleasure) of posting mildly flammable material here in the name of sarcasm, harmless venting or merely pointing out the occasional inconsistency. I like to think that many of us here are critical thinkers, and in spite of the occasionally hurtful comment, that type of thinking is crucial to strong development in a community.
I sincerely hope that we are being careful not to foster an atmosphere where people are afraid to speak their minds, giving benefit of the doubt to those whose comments occasionally straddle the line of what is acceptable.
As for those whose unfortunate comments only serve to constantly instigate and infuriate, banning does, for me at least, seem an appropriate measure.
Regards,
Empty Nest Collection
If you don't like it........DON'T OPEN THE THREAD !!!!!!!!!!! Simple as that!!!!!
The offending post was deleted by me within one minute on July 19. 2009 @ 5.40PM
Forum AdministratorPSA & PSA/DNA ForumModerator@collectors.com | p 800.325.1121 | PSAcard.com
And we thought you were just too busy reading the new phonebook...................MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Unfortunately, the moderator job will never handle every situation to everyone's satisfaction.
Perhaps instead of an "Alert Mods" it could be "Report Spam."
edit: Oh... and do we hack on the book writers, too? (edit:edit: but those aren't the posts I'm talking about. they were both coin posts)
<< <i>Well, I see or have seen just what you are talking about a couple of times in the past few days. A couple of different posts seem like "soft spam." >>
Can you provide an example of 'soft spam'?
I'll just say that some may not be asking for price info for their own satisfaction.
Feld, you're the one who won't let things die. i sent you a PM saying as much back on March 8th when my attempts to avoid you resulted in your continual posting of snide little remarks similar to the "alterior" one you made here. you just can't let things be, but when i swing back you get PO'd. tough luck, bucko.
to your point of me proving anything, the stuff you have a guilty conscience about is ancient, it all took place years ago when you worked for a West Coast firm and had the nasty habit of linking their website and coins that they were offering for sale in threads you'd start. a few of us saw through the ploy and you backed off while never directly admitting that you had done anything wrong. a savvy guy like you knew what he was doing, you're just too proud to admit it. so yeah, i have accused you in the past of spam and will continue to bring it up so long as you swing first and until you can man up and admit your guilt.
that's simple, right?? at least it should be for a man.
-------------------------
Stuff for sale.
Huh?
Keets,
Just curious as to what the difference is between your statement regarding Mark above and your "Stuff for Sale" link, or for that matter my link to my website below?
I think most of us have posted a photo here and there for things we may have for sale. I know for me though when I have posted a photo it is because it's an interesting piece, a challenging coin as to grade, or something I hope is educational for those who read these boards. If that is soft spam then so be it. But my intent is to share, educate and foster positive discussion regarding coins. That's why I am here and motivates me to participate.
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
<< <i>Just curious as to what the difference is between your statement regarding Mark above and your "Stuff for Sale" link, or for that matter my link to my website below? >>
One's below the sig line and the other isn't? Only a guess.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, I see or have seen just what you are talking about a couple of times in the past few days. A couple of different posts seem like "soft spam." >>
Can you provide an example of 'soft spam'? >>
You thread on the 1885-CC GSA that just happen to end up for sale on Ebay 24 hours later......I would consider that soft span as your clearly hightlighting a coin that is going on sale soon....hard spam might be considered a coin that is already for sale and is posted to a "look at my coin" thread
There is a fine line between collecting and selling at times. Things have calmed down here, mostly and I have not been offended by any post recently with regard to a coin perhaps being for sale somewhere. Some people are too sensitive and this hot button of theirs is not the hot button of very many others.
Or to put it more clearly 'get a grip and let it go"
Just my 2 cents
<< <i>Waaay too much whining going on here. >>
I think there's a lot of "whining about whining" here, too. This place is legendary for simply dismissing someone else's complaints or concerns as "whining" if you don't agree with the validity of the complaint. Pretty insulting, IMO.
<< <i>
<< <i>Waaay too much whining going on here. >>
I think there's a lot of "whining about whining" here, too. This place is legendary for simply dismissing someone else's complaints or concerns as "whining" if you don't agree with the validity of the complaint. Pretty insulting, IMO. >>
+1
And if I play by the established rules and don't start posts about my coins that are for sale or will be for sale in 24 hours then why should other folks get a free pass? You see there are lots of us that sell and we want a fair playing field within the rules posted by PCGS as we are competing for collector dollars....if we don't get a fair shake then it's completely justifiable that we make mention of it here so that the powers that be are aware of what's going on.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, I see or have seen just what you are talking about a couple of times in the past few days. A couple of different posts seem like "soft spam." >>
Can you provide an example of 'soft spam'? >>
You thread on the 1885-CC GSA that just happen to end up for sale on Ebay 24 hours later......I would consider that soft span as your clearly hightlighting a coin that is going on sale soon....hard spam might be considered a coin that is already for sale and is posted to a "look at my coin" thread
Point taken.
Of course, I had 4 other coins that were also coming up for auction within 24 hours and 5 that were running at the time, none of which I posted here. And while we're talking about those coins, I didn't state that the 85-CC was for sale, where it would be for sale, when it would be for sale.....nothing. Correct?
I think I find myself now in a situation where I'm going to be damned if I do, damned if I don't with some posters here on this forum. Lemme explain, I'll give you two examples.
As you all know I recently sold my toned morgan set to Legend. Most of the coins had NEVER been photographed and displayed here. Dozens of forum members wrote me asking for photos but I couldn't provide a single one. After the sale was long over (a sale I did not advertise in advance) I began finding photos of my former coins on the internet, began copying them for my personal records, and began posting them here for conversation and for those who requested copies. What kind of negative comments do I get? You're just showing off here GSA......You're doing spam-like posts here GSAGUY. Really, spamming coins I no longer own? Okay.
Now, most of you know that over the next year or so I plan on selling select coins from my extensive GSA collection. I've stated that here. And I've decided to sell via a variety of means DIRECTLY TO COLLECTORS, not to a single dealer as I did with my other collection. This collection too has never been photographed, ever. Most the coins in my collection have not seen the light of day for 15 to 20 years and I suspect most will be eagerly received by the collecting public.
I tested the water, so to speak, with Greattoning for several weeks, but said nothing here about those coins being mine. Dick himself did not know the coins were mine because I was submitting them through a good buddy of mine who also has an extensive collection and knows Dick. Numerous forum members wrote me asking if those coins were mine and I found myself in the awkard position of having to figure out how to claim they weren't. In a nutshell, I didn't want to give anyone bidding on the coins information that was not available to all bidders.
I finally reveal the coins are/were mine and posted one, an unusual 90-CC GSA textile toned on the BST forum and what happens? A forum member here complains that I've got it posted in the BST trade forum AND that Greattoning has two active threads about his auctions running too!
Anyway, when I finally received the photo of the 85-CC the other night I was so blown-away and proud of the coin that I posted it here without comment because I believed others would like to see it. Is it possible that someone saw it who otherwise wouldn't have and might buy it. Yeah, that's possible. Two posters wrote me asking if they could buy it outright but I had to politely turn them down because it was already in line to be run and I want to give everyone equal shot at the coins Dick is running for me. Having said that, let's be honest here, those who are interested in buying coins from my collection and also frequent this forum now know where to find them and know that he's running weekly auctions.
So what are the rules here? Can't post a photo of coin I no longer own? Can't post a photo of coin without comment if it's to be sold within 24 hours, 24 days, 24 months? Am I allowed to post any coins I own that might someday be available for sale?
Coins have always been fun for me, but if we can't talk about coins, post photos of our own coins, look at other's coins, compare notes about coins, then why are we here?
Besides, I like my spam soft...............MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The soft spam limit is 30 days for coins under $5k.
90 days for coins over $5k.
<< <i>I can see both sides of the street on this one. The selfish side of my wants you to post since I have a personal grudge against Ebay and PayPal and don't visit their sites or services 99% of the time. If you didn't post them here I wouldn't see them.
Besides, I like my spam soft...............MJ >>
So, if I've got a linky in my sigline to any coins of mine that might be for sale, am I hard-spamming, soft-spamming, pseudo-spamming, smoke-and-mirror-spamming, what?
<< <i>
<< <i>I can see both sides of the street on this one. The selfish side of my wants you to post since I have a personal grudge against Ebay and PayPal and don't visit their sites or services 99% of the time. If you didn't post them here I wouldn't see them.
Besides, I like my spam soft...............MJ >>
So, if I've got a linky in my sigline to any coins of mine that might be for sale, am I hard-spamming, soft-spamming, pseudo-spamming, smoke-and-mirror-spamming, what?
Can't argue with Bayou logic
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
what was being done was very blatant; a thread would be started obstensibly to discuss a coin, a link would be provided to the coin's picture and anyone clicking the link would be taken to the firm that Feld worked for. it was repeated a number of times to the point where it seemed purposeful and only stopped after a few members made mention of it. as Lee stated above, a link in a sigline is acceptable.
there have been other members who have done the sort of thing that i mentioned in the OP, coming here to "alert" us to their collection being on sale and i suppose it's a no-win situation since they can just as easily use a shill. there are some that are worse, though. another member had the bad habit of posting pictures of toned coins here(eg. PCGS PR67 1970 Jefferson Nickel) and all you had to do was go to eBay, enter that information and find the coin. these are just a few examples, despite what some think i'm not here 24/7 and don't look for the stuff. most of what i've mentioned has been seen by others and is obvious.
for my own part, i think it's treading a fine line allowing us to have links in our sig-lines, but most agree that it's a good thing so i follow suit. one thing i try to be careful about is ewven posting a picture or talking about an item i have for sale. that's the "soft core" type of thing that i figure Ms. M. was meaning.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, I see or have seen just what you are talking about a couple of times in the past few days. A couple of different posts seem like "soft spam." >>
Can you provide an example of 'soft spam'? >>
You thread on the 1885-CC GSA that just happen to end up for sale on Ebay 24 hours later......I would consider that soft span as your clearly hightlighting a coin that is going on sale soon....hard spam might be considered a coin that is already for sale and is posted to a "look at my coin" thread
Point taken.
Of course, I had 4 other coins that were also coming up for auction within 24 hours and 5 that were running at the time, none of which I posted here. And while we're talking about those coins, I didn't state that the 85-CC was for sale, where it would be for sale, when it would be for sale.....nothing. Correct?
>>
Unlike some here I do not consider myself a member of the forum police or possey or whatever we want to call it today and I have never notified a moderator of anything......you simply asked for an example of soft span and I thought I would oblige you with what I felt was a very cler cut example....some will agree and some will not. I think that the pcgs forum is a better place if we have toned experts on here like yourself that built collections before it was envogue with the battle creeks. I have thoroughly enjoyed seeing images of your coins posted on here since I had heard the tales of wonderment but never had the privledge of seeing them.
but....and lets be clear about this.....I am in direct competition for collectors dollars since I only sell toned coins and these coins are sold on Ebay...and most of these coins are Morgan silver dollars so yes I do have a dog in this fight. The coins I have been selling without question are not of the caliber of what larry is selling off ebay and most of the GSAs I have seen Dick selling are nicer than what I have been selling....but I have kept my Ebay for sale items in the B/S/T section including some really cute coins that I would love to have shown off becuase I knew that within days of purchasing them, they would be up on ebay. Plus I have an established track record and have been actively posting about coin related topics that have nothing to do with toners or for sale items since 2001 so it is most likely clear to most that I don't use the forums as a sales platform.
Hey you might not be either and that's cool but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then people are going to perceive it's a duck whether it really is or not. I for one hope you stick around after the sale of your coins as I have been a minority toned lover on these forums for fair to long
AB
Don/PCGS/CU can absolutely allow/deny what they want on the forum as they foot the bill.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
If someone wants to show off a new purchase and it later is offered for sale, so what?
If your major complaint is that you are 'competing for collector dollars' and it's unfair...well, anyone who's that scared of a random thread here taking significant business away from them needs to rethink their business model.
Get a grip. Have a brewski, chill out.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>Much ado over nothing in my opinion.
If someone wants to show off a new purchase and it later is offered for sale, so what?
If your major complaint is that you are 'competing for collector dollars' and it's unfair...well, anyone who's that scared of a random thread here taking significant business away from them needs to rethink their business model.
Get a grip. Have a brewski, chill out.
I'll drink to that! (but then, i'll drink to most anything)
~labrams~
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Larry L.
<< <i>Perhaps those with links to ebay, items for sale and miniature billboards in their posts need to look at themselves before pointing the "spam" fingers at others. How did that song from the 60's/70's go......"Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself." There is so much information to be gathered from these forums that are provided by our hosts for free. And yet there is a core group of negative people who persist in dragging it into the gutter. How sad.
Larry L.
who?
I woulda been a psychiatrist.Of course, I'm not saying that most of us don't
need psychiatric help , its just that I would rather be the helped then the
. helper.
Camelot
Best,
Eric
<< <i>ziggy29 - I think there's a lot of "whining about whining" here, too. This place is legendary for simply dismissing someone else's complaints or concerns as "whining" if you don't agree with the validity of the complaint. Pretty insulting, IMO. >>
<< <i>kryptonitecomics - And if I play by the established rules and don't start posts about my coins that are for sale or will be for sale in 24 hours then why should other folks get a free pass? You see there are lots of us that sell and we want a fair playing field within the rules posted by PCGS as we are competing for collector dollars....if we don't get a fair shake then it's completely justifiable that we make mention of it here so that the powers that be are aware of what's going on.
Ah, the almighty "collector dollar." Reminds me of the unfortunate reality that there's still a mindset out there and among us that looks upon us all as just so many consumers. Maybe that explains the "whining about whining," when, gosh forbid, intelligent life happens from time to time to emerge in one of these so-called "soft promotional" threads only to later have to discover to its peril it's rather been butting heads with the attention span of a gnat. When a thread can't field intelligent discourse, free, robust and open expression, call it what you will, that's typically the first sign there's something insidious lurking underneath. Nobody put a rope around any of our necks and dragged any of us over here, we're rather, here, all, on our own free will. Let's try and have a little respect for that fact, and not waste our time, and keep the selling in the PCGS forum it's designed to be in, and quit the crude and otherwise clever attempts at indirect selling, here. That, IMHO, would be real big of us all. Those signature links are nothing, IMHO, as, if they're anything, they're mere alerts one happens to be "open for business."
As a collector I'd much rather have someone like GSAGUY post pics of his coins along with the background of the series and all... I see coins that I'd likely never see and learn a lot in the process. I could care less if it's for sale or not.
To have Keets or Manofcoins come out and gripe about it is what is upsetting...
If I recall correctly Keets was the one bragging about his shop taking advantage of a guy who didn't know what he had... seems like it was a very rare Barber coin. Now me as a collector, I'd like to think a coin shop would have enough class to let the seller know they had something special... or if that wasn't possible at least don't go bragging about it on a public board.
And MOC... seems to me there was a colorful history with you. Didn't you admit to toning coins in the PCGS Rattler slabs? I think you tried to make it right though.... after you were caught.
I know enough to know that my opinion doesn't matter here and I certainly don't have the connections to keep me from being banned but before you two pillars of the coin community decide to gripe about someone who I'd think most see as a net positive you might try looking in the mirror.
I thought threads, posts, and posters disappearing was a software glitch
every day I learn something new
evidentally you recall several points incorrectly since there was nothing intended in the OP of that thread which was bragging. it was only the twisting, turning and high moral ground wrestling of certain members which put that twist into the whole thing. reread the thread if you're uncertain about the specifics, which you clearly are on all points in your post.
oh yeah, one other teeny, wheeny point-----it wasn't my shop, i was working for a friend, another point made clear by me but twisted by other members. after you reread the thread and get your head on right about what actually took place please let me know via PM if you're still upset.
Camelot
<< <i>If I recall correctly Keets was the one bragging about his shop taking advantage of a guy who didn't know what he had... seems like it was a very rare Barber coin.
evidentally you recall several points incorrectly since there was nothing intended in the OP of that thread which was bragging. it was only the twisting, turning and high moral ground wrestling of certain members which put that twist into the whole thing. reread the thread if you're uncertain about the specifics, which you clearly are on all points in your post.
oh yeah, one other teeny, wheeny point-----it wasn't my shop, i was working for a friend, another point made clear by me but twisted by other members. after you reread the thread and get your head on right about what actually took place please let me know via PM if you're still upset. >>
Richard, don't bother re-reading the thread in order to "get your head on right about what actually took place " - it appears that each post by the OP was edited and/or deleted.
<< <i>there you go, Feld. start it up again!! keep going on like this, it's much easier then being a "man" and admitting you spammed the board way back when. just remember, you are the one that won't let things die down, you just have to keep picking and picking. that's just the way you are, much easier than admitting a mistake. >>
I didn't think what I was doing approximately 6 or 7(?) years ago was spam, but you (Laura, and I don't know who else) did, so I stopped. If it was spam, I apologize to the forum for what I did 6 or 7(?) years ago. And I'm the one who wont let things die down.
<< <i>
<< <i>there you go, Feld. start it up again!! keep going on like this, it's much easier then being a "man" and admitting you spammed the board way back when. just remember, you are the one that won't let things die down, you just have to keep picking and picking. that's just the way you are, much easier than admitting a mistake. >>
I didn't think what I was doing approximately 6 or 7(?) years ago was spam, but you (Laura, and I don't know who else) did, so I stopped. If it was spam, I apologize to the forum for what I did 6 or 7(?) years ago. And I'm the one who wont let things die down.
The statute of limitations for board spamming is 10 years, so we can continue to bring it up for 3 more.
no, you're the one that until today has been unwilling to admit a mistake which you've kept insisting i was fabricating and wrongly accusing you of. now you admit the truth in what i have been saying all along, so perhaps we can stop this insane, childish little game. as for the thread reference, please find the thread for me and i can clear up any misconceptions, wrong interpretations or what-have-you to set the record straight. i feel that you know what was what in that whole thing, but why pass up an oppurtunity to stir the pot, right??
just remember, i have already laid things to rest and have contiued to harangue you simply because you insist on trying to embarrass or discredit me when you see the chance. there's really no need for that, i can do those things to myself without your help. hopefully this an end.
<< <i>This thread is upsetting to me.
As a collector I'd much rather have someone like GSAGUY post pics of his coins along with the background of the series and all... I see coins that I'd likely never see and learn a lot in the process. I could care less if it's for sale or not.
To have Keets or Manofcoins come out and gripe about it is what is upsetting...
If I recall correctly Keets was the one bragging about his shop taking advantage of a guy who didn't know what he had... seems like it was a very rare Barber coin. Now me as a collector, I'd like to think a coin shop would have enough class to let the seller know they had something special... or if that wasn't possible at least don't go bragging about it on a public board.
And MOC... seems to me there was a colorful history with you. Didn't you admit to toning coins in the PCGS Rattler slabs? I think you tried to make it right though.... after you were caught.
I know enough to know that my opinion doesn't matter here and I certainly don't have the connections to keep me from being banned but before you two pillars of the coin community decide to gripe about someone who I'd think most see as a net positive you might try looking in the mirror. >>
So it appears that those who "cast the first stone" were not without sin after all..................or perhaps just suffering from amnesia. While I find this equally annoying and upsetting, the fact remains that a real decent guy who had so much to offer got so disgusted that he left the forum. I will really miss GSAGUY....his photos, his knowledge, and his humor. In the meantime, look at the postings of the titans who are perpetually arguing over what happened so long ago. Which would you rather read about? Which postings contribute more to this hobby?
Larry L.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>If I recall correctly Keets was the one bragging about his shop taking advantage of a guy who didn't know what he had... seems like it was a very rare Barber coin.
evidentally you recall several points incorrectly since there was nothing intended in the OP of that thread which was bragging. it was only the twisting, turning and high moral ground wrestling of certain members which put that twist into the whole thing. reread the thread if you're uncertain about the specifics, which you clearly are on all points in your post.
oh yeah, one other teeny, wheeny point-----it wasn't my shop, i was working for a friend, another point made clear by me but twisted by other members. after you reread the thread and get your head on right about what actually took place please let me know via PM if you're still upset. >>
If I recalled things incorrectly regarding you then I apologize. So it wasn't your shop and it wasn't you who stiffed the old guy.... in my mind it was you that originally posted the topic and I guess I linked you to an event that I felt strongly was wrong.
I would still respectfully disagree with you (as I noted in the response to your PM) as I don't feel that any of GSAGUY's posts were intended to "spam" his coins. Coins like that don't need spamming. They should be posted about... photographed... and discussed at length. I'm sure that just seeing pics of them made a lot of people feel good and might have even attracted some new collectors in to the hobby. To call him out as a "spammer".... just not right in my opinion. I guess we can agree to disagree on it.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>1
MJ >>
1
Everyone take a cool drink and settle down ,or I will have to come over
and rip your leg off to restore peace and tranquility.
Camelot
<< <i>Now just stop it everyone. This thread has now gone over the line.
Everyone take a cool drink and settle down ,or I will have to come over
and rip your leg off to restore peace and tranquility.
Beer has a good point.
<< <i>This thread is upsetting to me.
As a collector I'd much rather have someone like GSAGUY post pics of his coins along with the background of the series and all... I see coins that I'd likely never see and learn a lot in the process. I could care less if it's for sale or not.
To have Keets or Manofcoins come out and gripe about it is what is upsetting...
If I recall correctly Keets was the one bragging about his shop taking advantage of a guy who didn't know what he had... seems like it was a very rare Barber coin. Now me as a collector, I'd like to think a coin shop would have enough class to let the seller know they had something special... or if that wasn't possible at least don't go bragging about it on a public board.
And MOC... seems to me there was a colorful history with you. Didn't you admit to toning coins in the PCGS Rattler slabs? I think you tried to make it right though.... after you were caught.
I know enough to know that my opinion doesn't matter here and I certainly don't have the connections to keep me from being banned but before you two pillars of the coin community decide to gripe about someone who I'd think most see as a net positive you might try looking in the mirror. >>
Rich, FWIW (and probably not much, if this is typical), I think I agree with your comments, 99%. The 1% is, that leaves the problem Shane Kryptonitecomics, who's been on these boards since 2001, observed; namely, that there are a lot of dealers and otherwise sellers on eBay, etc., who'd most assuredly love to engage in that same "soft sell" practice of simply showing off their lovely coins (which, BTW, as a matter of no small coincidence, just so also happen to be looking for a buyer) to us all, but that have had enough of a sense of fair play so as to restrain themselves, in such. They see others getting away with it, though, what are they supposed to think? And, there must be hundreds of people in that position on these boards, think about it.
Sell where you're supposed to sell, and talk where you're supposed to talk. It's not quantum mechanics, folks...
EDIT: OK, I just read what came before this, I'll go have that beer, now, here's mud in your eye and all that...
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5