Back on track- I like the coins (a LOT!), especially the ones where you can see the pattern from the bag fabric... thanks for making this post!
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
<< <i>One more thing. PQpeace/Larry, I can't help but notice your just having changed the title of this thread from "11 stunning coins" to "Sorry I made this post." There really wasn't any call for that, IMHO. From a grading standpoint, I'd think it's pretty clear to all, here, those coins are every bit those PCGS assigned "market grades." It's just that, let's also face it, market grading, in itself, is grading gone a little soft in the head. And, as such, one has to figure, those grades are an example of that, too... >>
I don't think that is fair to Larry or to PCGS (or even to the coins). I have seen a number of them in person and do not feel that the grading is liberal. >>
Agreed, and I don't think there was much "color bump" on those anyway. As another poster indicated, MS-65 and 66 Morgans still have hits, especially when blown up to the size of the images posted in this thread.
I just took a very thorough look at the images and made grading notes on each coin and then assigned my personal grade based on images alone understanding that there is no substitute for having the coins in hand becuase some of the imprefections we see in the images could be nearly invisable in hand etc. Although there were some images that did not include the cert number the ones I could match up were all within 1 point of my personal grade and I consider myself and extremely good grader of morgans. Some were dead on and some were even a point lower then I would have graded the coins so based on my typical track record of judging coins from images I also don't see that these coins got significant bumps due to the color. If the coin was say a 65.7 then I would be surpised if monster color like these couldn't give a .3 bump due to the added eye appeal.
I think the grades are fair and in hand if the grades were covered up I would assume I could pretty well duplicate my grading test.....the plus coins would be the more difficult for me as I don't grade in half points....I know what a typical 64, 65, 66 looks like but the split grades seem a bit much to me from a person standpoint.
I like the white dollars. Always have. However, about twenty-odd years ago, I bought a set of N.O. Morgan dollars nestled in a cute 'New Orleans Dollar' holder with a picture of a gunslinger on the front. Inside, the dollars were toned beautifully (no doubt helped by the tissue paper put between the pages - ostensibly to protect the coins from face-to-face contact when the album was closed). This purchase, and the years of enjoyment looking at it, gave me an appreciation of toning on Morgans. This collection was sold with the help of David Lawrence Rare Coins in the mid-90s to help purchase a property (most graded 63/64, with the 93 scratched and the 94 to 97 and the 86 in various states of AU). I kept the 84, as it was a 65. It is lovely and sports two sided toning, with the reverse a monotone gold. Simply beautiful, and I've looked at it often.
When the first of these Sonnier coins appeared on Legend's website about a month ago, I picked up two dates - a simply beautiful 88-O and a stunning 79-S rainbow. What true eye-candy. I found them mesmorizing. The 88-O sports the burlap toning - I find this kind of 'testimony' proving that this dollar sat for decades in its sack very, very appealing.
I set aside a chunk of funds and waited for more coins from Legend. I was able to pick up some more O dollars and a wonderfully toned 'jingle bells' S-dollar.
I find these coins amazing. I may be part of the problem in that I was willing to spend my money on these coins, with little regard to the amount, with trust in the dealer stemming from previous purchases, and finally due to the dollars' distinctiveness and their true originality. The fact that such an old coin has never been messed with very much appeals to me.
To you professionals, I likely represent part of the problem this thread has touched upon. As Maxwell Smart would say 'Sorry about that, Chief'. I do not feel that I overpaid, as I'm totally satisfied with the coins.
I attended my first show at the Santa Clara facility recently. Had the pleasure of meeting 'PQPeace'/Larry Shapiro. I have previously purchased two nice Liberty Walking half dollars from Larry Shapiro and am very happy with the coins.
I would also like to thank GSAGuy for the collection. I have a special affection for O Morgans [never should have sold the gunslinger collection]. The recent purchases have helped me immensely in my efforts to replace the collection with even better coins.
Thanks to Larry Shapiro for the pictures of other Sonnier dollars. I was curious about the other dollars out there, and it was a genuine treat to see some of them.
I've been waiting for Legend to send me a photo of Jingle Bells (not even sure which coin that is) but it hasn't arrived yet. If you happen to have a copy of it, I'd love to have. I'm building something of a photo archive of coins that once resided in my collection.
<< <i>JBN, congratulations on the 'Jingle Bells' Morgan---I got to the dance too late.
gsaguy, 'Jingle Bells' is featured in a Legend ad---it's on page 23 of the April 26 issue of Coin World. >>
I'm out of the country right now so unless that add is available on-line, I can't see the photo. I don't think it ever appeared on Legend's website either.
<< <i>JBN, congratulations on the 'Jingle Bells' Morgan---I got to the dance too late.
gsaguy, 'Jingle Bells' is featured in a Legend ad---it's on page 23 of the April 26 issue of Coin World. >>
I'm out of the country right now so unless that add is available on-line, I can't see the photo. I don't think it ever appeared on Legend's website either. >>
It didn't---I was also hoping to see a good pic of it. And hoping to get my hands on it, but..... I did get two others, and I am quite pleased with them.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
I just wanted to add my two cents as Larry is a great guy and took a beating for no good reason here. He was never trying to advertise coins for sale, just sharing images. Unlike many dealers he does not even have a link in his signature line. The bashing was completely out of line IMHO.
For the record I have never bought or sold a toned Morgan and my only dealings with Larry were a sale of some Mercs 5 years ago that he has probably forgotten.
I love viewing the images and appreciate the sharing of cool coins. I know a sales pitch when I see one and this certainly was NOT that.
Keep posting those toned beauties!
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
<< <i>JBN, congratulations on the 'Jingle Bells' Morgan---I got to the dance too late.
gsaguy, 'Jingle Bells' is featured in a Legend ad---it's on page 23 of the April 26 issue of Coin World. >>
I'm out of the country right now so unless that add is available on-line, I can't see the photo. I don't think it ever appeared on Legend's website either. >>
It didn't---I was also hoping to see a good pic of it. And hoping to get my hands on it, but..... I did get two others, and I am quite pleased with them. >>
Congrats on picking up a couple of my former family members.
BTW, I love the Sonoran desert. Hunted desert sheep out that way a few years back, in Mexico actually. The Sonoran desert is beautiful.
I asked for a picture of jingle bells as well. Legend responded that they weren't sure a picture of it existed.....Hopefully one will be scrounged up. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I asked for a picture of jingle bells as well. Legend responded that they weren't sure a picture of it existed.....Hopefully one will be scrounged up. MJ >>
Did you by chance see the set of 3 78-CC's? Spectacular coins, especially that one reverse-toned piece. I was going to try to hide those from Laura, hoping she'd forgotten about them, but they were the first ones she asked about.
<< <i>I asked for a picture of jingle bells as well. Legend responded that they weren't sure a picture of it existed.....Hopefully one will be scrounged up. MJ >>
Did you by chance see the set of 3 78-CC's? Spectacular coins, especially that one reverse-toned piece. I was going to try to hide those from Laura, hoping she'd forgotten about them, but they were the first ones she asked about. >>
She showed me a few of your coins pre announcement . (she didn't tell me that they were yours) All she said is they weren't for sale (yet) and that they were all 10K + coins. They were killer. One was a 82-S if I remember correctly. It was at the PCGS event in Vegas. It was possible they were freshly holdered at the event as they were graded when I saw the pieces..............MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
There is no reason to be sorry for creating this thread. It gave people the chance to see pictures of some nicely toned coins and rooted out many of the haters.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>I don't think that is fair to Larry or to PCGS (or even to the coins). >>
From PCGS (pictures omitted):
The "technical" grade of the coin is the grade of the coin based on the factors above without taking eye appeal into consideration. Eye appeal either adds or subtracts from the "technical" grade, or is neutral as a factor in determining the final grade. For toning, PCGS uses seven levels of eye appeal, from "Amazing" to "Ugly". For luster on mint state coins and depth of reflectivity on proofs, PCGS uses six levels of eye appeal, from "Amazing" to "Negative".
AMAZING This is a coin you look at and think "Wow!" This coin could have incredible luster and/or color, and/or mind boggling contrast if a proof or proof-like, and/or incredible mirror surfaces if a proof. Amazing eye appeal can add up to a FULL POINT to the "technical" grade.
POSITIVE This coin has outstanding eye appeal. This coin could have outstanding luster and/or color, and/or outstanding contrast for a proof or proof-like, and/or noticeably superior depth of mirror if a proof. Positive eye appeal can add up to a HALF-POINT to the "technical" grade. Note on toning: splotchy toning and/or deeply embedded toning is never positive no matter how "original."
ABOVE AVERAGE This coin has above average eye appeal. It looks better than most examples you see of the particular "technical" grade. This coin could have above average luster and/or color, and/or above average contrast for a proof or proof-like, and/or somewhat above average depth of mirror if a proof. Above Average eye appeal can add up to a QUARTERPOINT to the "technical" grade and/or can increase the grade of a "liner" coin. Note on toning: splotchy toning and/or deeply embedded toning is never above average no matter how "original."
You were saying?
<< <i>I have seen a number of them in person and do not feel that the grading is liberal. >>
I'll repeat, just for you: "From a grading standpoint, I'd think it's pretty clear to all, here, those coins are every bit those PCGS assigned 'market grades.'" Thank you.
<< <i>I don't think that is fair to Larry or to PCGS (or even to the coins). >>
From PCGS (pictures omitted):
The "technical" grade of the coin is the grade of the coin based on the factors above without taking eye appeal into consideration. Eye appeal either adds or subtracts from the "technical" grade, or is neutral as a factor in determining the final grade. For toning, PCGS uses seven levels of eye appeal, from "Amazing" to "Ugly". For luster on mint state coins and depth of reflectivity on proofs, PCGS uses six levels of eye appeal, from "Amazing" to "Negative".
AMAZING This is a coin you look at and think "Wow!" This coin could have incredible luster and/or color, and/or mind boggling contrast if a proof or proof-like, and/or incredible mirror surfaces if a proof. Amazing eye appeal can add up to a FULL POINT to the "technical" grade.
POSITIVE This coin has outstanding eye appeal. This coin could have outstanding luster and/or color, and/or outstanding contrast for a proof or proof-like, and/or noticeably superior depth of mirror if a proof. Positive eye appeal can add up to a HALF-POINT to the "technical" grade. Note on toning: splotchy toning and/or deeply embedded toning is never positive no matter how "original."
ABOVE AVERAGE This coin has above average eye appeal. It looks better than most examples you see of the particular "technical" grade. This coin could have above average luster and/or color, and/or above average contrast for a proof or proof-like, and/or somewhat above average depth of mirror if a proof. Above Average eye appeal can add up to a QUARTERPOINT to the "technical" grade and/or can increase the grade of a "liner" coin. Note on toning: splotchy toning and/or deeply embedded toning is never above average no matter how "original."
You were saying?
<< <i>I have seen a number of them in person and do not feel that the grading is liberal. >>
I'll repeat, just for you: "From a grading standpoint, I'd think it's pretty clear to all, here, those coins are every bit those PCGS assigned 'market grades.'" >>
It's certainly not clear to me. Because, as I said previously, I have seen a number of them in person and do not feel that the grading is liberal. Put another way, I don't necessarily think that "market grades" were assigned. Had that been the case, a number of the grades would probably have been higher.
But Mark, read those PCGS guidelines, again. I'd think it's a foregone conclusion from those that all these coins got bumped. How could they not have done that, given those guidelines?
EDIT: BTW, FWIW, I wasn't kidding when I said, earlier, I admire PCGS for laying out those guidelines. In fact, I have guidelines on coin-doctoring, circa 2000, from PCGS, in my personal files. At least they make efforts to tell you out front what the hell they're doing. And, they've always been that way, far as I know...
<< <i>But Mark, read those PCGS guidelines, again. I'd think it's a foregone conclusion from those that all these coins got bumped. How could they not have done that, given those guidelines? >>
We will have to agree to disagree. I see plenty of coins that appear to have received a grade bump due to their color. But a number of the ones from this collection did not fall into that category. And seeing as how I am not the world's loosest grader, I have a strong suspicion that sight-seen, a number of other people (perhaps including you) would feel the same way.
<< <i>But Mark, read those PCGS guidelines, again. I'd think it's a foregone conclusion from those that all these coins got bumped. How could they not have done that, given those guidelines? >>
We will have to agree to disagree. I see plenty of coins that appear to have received a grade bump due to their color. But a number of the ones from this collection did not fall into that category. And seeing as how I am not the world's loosest grader, I have a strong suspicion that sight-seen, a number of other people (perhaps including you) would feel the same way.
>>
Fair enough, Mark, for sure. Thank you. Have to scoot...
gsaguy- Over the past few weeks i was amazed that you had these coins raw, i see clearly now why. I only wish i had a collection like this but i missed the boat and can not start at the prices these are being sold for now. Congrats on what you did. With all the lovers and haters in this thread i would say you did it right.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
Never be sorry you made this thread. There is always a difference of opinion when it comes to colorful coins. That is not such a bad thing.
If EVERYONE loved colorful coins then the prices would be 50 TIMES what they go for today, including your coins whether they range from $100 to $7500 or so.
But I admit I bought my first really awesome coin of COLOR (from the Sonnier collection) and I must admit these babies can be addicting.
<< <i>gsaguy- Over the past few weeks i was amazed that you had these coins raw, i see clearly now why. I only wish i had a collection like this but i missed the boat and can not start at the prices these are being sold for now. Congrats on what you did. With all the lovers and haters in this thread i would say you did it right. >>
Thanks for the kind words, I really do appreciate it. As most of you know I focused on the GSA sale but just couldn't resist buying beautifully toned Morgans when I could find them. I was fortunate in that I was buying them at a time when they were not in style and bought many of them very reasonably priced. I also never got into the grading hysteria though I was always looking for high quality pieces.
As I've said before, I'm afraid our hobby today focuses far too much on the grade failing to appreciate the coins for what they are.
There are a number of reasons that the Sonnier Collection is special.
1. They were selected by a very smart and discriminating collector.
2. They were stored a way for a long time and have not undergone any change in color.
3. Some of the coins are so beyond belief in the collection ,that they probably have been resold by dealers for 12-15000 dollars. However these coins are few in number
4. The coins that Larry bought, were some of the nicest toners I have seen in years. to be able to buy a MS 66 coin ,with wonderful toning ,has become a rare event.
5. The luster on most of the coins, is extraordinary.
6. The person who put together this collection is of such integrity and deep knowledge, that the name Sonnier Collection ,will come to mean ,Original, Natural Toning, either in a Mint bag or in a holder for a very long time ,under normal and natural conditions.
7. Many toned coins on the market are at best, dull, muddy colors and are more tarnished in the worst sense of the word then toned.They are also so banged up that the marks distract the eye from the toning.Many of these are 62s and 63s if not circulated.
8. The sale of this collection,will probably be the premier toned Morgan event of the entire year. All of us have been privileged to witness the event, see a number of the coins and even have the opportunity to buy some of them.
Larry, would you just sell those dirty, stinkin', nasty, trouble-makin' Morgans and buy some nice, early Walkers I could possibly buy from you? Thanks, Scott
<< <i> 8. The sale of this collection,will probably be the premier toned Morgan event of the entire year. All of us have been privileged to witness the event, see a number of the coins and even have the opportunity to buy some of them. >>
Did the Sunnywood collection sell this year or last year?
<< <i> 8. The sale of this collection,will probably be the premier toned Morgan event of the entire year. All of us have been privileged to witness the event, see a number of the coins and even have the opportunity to buy some of them. >>
Did the Sunnywood collection sell this year or last year? >>
<< <i> 8. The sale of this collection,will probably be the premier toned Morgan event of the entire year. All of us have been privileged to witness the event, see a number of the coins and even have the opportunity to buy some of them. >>
Did the Sunnywood collection sell this year or last year? >>
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>One more thing. PQpeace/Larry, I can't help but notice your just having changed the title of this thread from "11 stunning coins" to "Sorry I made this post." There really wasn't any call for that, IMHO. From a grading standpoint, I'd think it's pretty clear to all, here, those coins are every bit those PCGS assigned "market grades." It's just that, let's also face it, market grading, in itself, is grading gone a little soft in the head. And, as such, one has to figure, those grades are an example of that, too... >>
I don't think that is fair to Larry or to PCGS (or even to the coins). I have seen a number of them in person and do not feel that the grading is liberal. >>
Agreed, and I don't think there was much "color bump" on those anyway. As another poster indicated, MS-65 and 66 Morgans still have hits, especially when blown up to the size of the images posted in this thread.
I think the grades are fair and in hand if the grades were covered up I would assume I could pretty well duplicate my grading test.....the plus coins would be the more difficult for me as I don't grade in half points....I know what a typical 64, 65, 66 looks like but the split grades seem a bit much to me from a person standpoint.
I like the white dollars. Always have. However, about twenty-odd years ago, I bought a set of N.O. Morgan dollars nestled in a cute 'New Orleans Dollar' holder with a picture of a gunslinger on the front. Inside, the dollars were toned beautifully (no doubt helped by the tissue paper put between the pages - ostensibly to protect the coins from face-to-face contact when the album was closed). This purchase, and the years of enjoyment looking at it, gave me an appreciation of toning on Morgans. This collection was sold with the help of David Lawrence Rare Coins in the mid-90s to help purchase a property (most graded 63/64, with the 93 scratched and the 94 to 97 and the 86 in various states of AU). I kept the 84, as it was a 65. It is lovely and sports two sided toning, with the reverse a monotone gold. Simply beautiful, and I've looked at it often.
When the first of these Sonnier coins appeared on Legend's website about a month ago, I picked up two dates - a simply beautiful 88-O and a stunning 79-S rainbow. What true eye-candy. I found them mesmorizing. The 88-O sports the burlap toning - I find this kind of 'testimony' proving that this dollar sat for decades in its sack very, very appealing.
I set aside a chunk of funds and waited for more coins from Legend. I was able to pick up some more O dollars and a wonderfully toned 'jingle bells' S-dollar.
I find these coins amazing. I may be part of the problem in that I was willing to spend my money on these coins, with little regard to the amount, with trust in the dealer stemming from previous purchases, and finally due to the dollars' distinctiveness and their true originality. The fact that such an old coin has never been messed with very much appeals to me.
To you professionals, I likely represent part of the problem this thread has touched upon. As Maxwell Smart would say 'Sorry about that, Chief'. I do not feel that I overpaid, as I'm totally satisfied with the coins.
I attended my first show at the Santa Clara facility recently. Had the pleasure of meeting 'PQPeace'/Larry Shapiro. I have previously purchased two nice Liberty Walking half dollars from Larry Shapiro and am very happy with the coins.
I would also like to thank GSAGuy for the collection. I have a special affection for O Morgans [never should have sold the gunslinger collection]. The recent purchases have helped me immensely in my efforts to replace the collection with even better coins.
Thanks to Larry Shapiro for the pictures of other Sonnier dollars. I was curious about the other dollars out there, and it was a genuine treat to see some of them.
I've been waiting for Legend to send me a photo of Jingle Bells (not even sure which coin that is) but it hasn't arrived yet. If you happen to have a copy of it, I'd love to have. I'm building something of a photo archive of coins that once resided in my collection.
gsaguy, 'Jingle Bells' is featured in a Legend ad---it's on page 23 of the April 26 issue of Coin World.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>JBN, congratulations on the 'Jingle Bells' Morgan---I got to the dance too late.
gsaguy, 'Jingle Bells' is featured in a Legend ad---it's on page 23 of the April 26 issue of Coin World. >>
I'm out of the country right now so unless that add is available on-line, I can't see the photo. I don't think it ever appeared on Legend's website either.
Great coins and grades Larry.
<< <i>
<< <i>JBN, congratulations on the 'Jingle Bells' Morgan---I got to the dance too late.
gsaguy, 'Jingle Bells' is featured in a Legend ad---it's on page 23 of the April 26 issue of Coin World. >>
I'm out of the country right now so unless that add is available on-line, I can't see the photo. I don't think it ever appeared on Legend's website either.
It didn't---I was also hoping to see a good pic of it. And hoping to get my hands on it, but.....
I did get two others, and I am quite pleased with them.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
For the record I have never bought or sold a toned Morgan and my only dealings with Larry were a sale of some Mercs 5 years ago that he has probably forgotten.
I love viewing the images and appreciate the sharing of cool coins. I know a sales pitch when I see one and this certainly was NOT that.
Keep posting those toned beauties!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>JBN, congratulations on the 'Jingle Bells' Morgan---I got to the dance too late.
gsaguy, 'Jingle Bells' is featured in a Legend ad---it's on page 23 of the April 26 issue of Coin World. >>
I'm out of the country right now so unless that add is available on-line, I can't see the photo. I don't think it ever appeared on Legend's website either.
It didn't---I was also hoping to see a good pic of it. And hoping to get my hands on it, but.....
I did get two others, and I am quite pleased with them. >>
Congrats on picking up a couple of my former family members.
BTW, I love the Sonoran desert. Hunted desert sheep out that way a few years back, in Mexico actually. The Sonoran desert is beautiful.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I asked for a picture of jingle bells as well. Legend responded that they weren't sure a picture of it existed.....Hopefully one will be scrounged up. MJ >>
Did you by chance see the set of 3 78-CC's? Spectacular coins, especially that one reverse-toned piece. I was going to try to hide those from Laura, hoping she'd forgotten about them, but they were the first ones she asked about.
At some point, I will be looking to image the various coins I have.
I will post pictures at that time.
Still learning.....
<< <i>
<< <i>I asked for a picture of jingle bells as well. Legend responded that they weren't sure a picture of it existed.....Hopefully one will be scrounged up. MJ >>
Did you by chance see the set of 3 78-CC's? Spectacular coins, especially that one reverse-toned piece. I was going to try to hide those from Laura, hoping she'd forgotten about them, but they were the first ones she asked about.
She showed me a few of your coins pre announcement . (she didn't tell me that they were yours) All she said is they weren't for sale (yet) and that they were all 10K + coins. They were killer. One was a 82-S if I remember correctly. It was at the PCGS event in Vegas. It was possible they were freshly holdered at the event as they were graded when I saw the pieces..............MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>I don't think that is fair to Larry or to PCGS (or even to the coins). >>
From PCGS (pictures omitted):
The "technical" grade of the coin is the grade of the coin based on the factors above without taking eye appeal into consideration. Eye appeal either adds or subtracts from the "technical" grade, or is neutral as a factor in determining the final grade. For toning, PCGS uses seven levels of eye appeal, from "Amazing" to "Ugly". For luster on mint state coins and depth of reflectivity on proofs, PCGS uses six levels of eye appeal, from "Amazing" to "Negative".
AMAZING
This is a coin you look at and think "Wow!" This coin could have incredible luster and/or color, and/or mind boggling contrast if a proof or proof-like, and/or incredible mirror surfaces if a proof. Amazing eye appeal can add up to a FULL POINT to the "technical" grade.
POSITIVE
This coin has outstanding eye appeal. This coin could have outstanding luster and/or color, and/or outstanding contrast for a proof or proof-like, and/or noticeably superior depth of mirror if a proof. Positive eye appeal can add up to a HALF-POINT to the "technical" grade. Note on toning: splotchy toning and/or deeply embedded toning is never positive no matter how "original."
ABOVE AVERAGE
This coin has above average eye appeal. It looks better than most examples you see of the particular "technical" grade. This coin could have above average luster and/or color, and/or above average contrast for a proof or proof-like, and/or somewhat above average depth of mirror if a proof. Above Average eye appeal can add up to a QUARTERPOINT to the "technical" grade and/or can increase the grade of a "liner" coin. Note on toning: splotchy toning and/or deeply embedded toning is never above average no matter how "original."
You were saying?
<< <i>I have seen a number of them in person and do not feel that the grading is liberal. >>
I'll repeat, just for you: "From a grading standpoint, I'd think it's pretty clear to all, here, those coins are every bit those PCGS assigned 'market grades.'" Thank you.
EDITED: Sheesh!
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't think that is fair to Larry or to PCGS (or even to the coins). >>
From PCGS (pictures omitted):
The "technical" grade of the coin is the grade of the coin based on the factors above without taking eye appeal into consideration. Eye appeal either adds or subtracts from the "technical" grade, or is neutral as a factor in determining the final grade. For toning, PCGS uses seven levels of eye appeal, from "Amazing" to "Ugly". For luster on mint state coins and depth of reflectivity on proofs, PCGS uses six levels of eye appeal, from "Amazing" to "Negative".
AMAZING
This is a coin you look at and think "Wow!" This coin could have incredible luster and/or color, and/or mind boggling contrast if a proof or proof-like, and/or incredible mirror surfaces if a proof. Amazing eye appeal can add up to a FULL POINT to the "technical" grade.
POSITIVE
This coin has outstanding eye appeal. This coin could have outstanding luster and/or color, and/or outstanding contrast for a proof or proof-like, and/or noticeably superior depth of mirror if a proof. Positive eye appeal can add up to a HALF-POINT to the "technical" grade. Note on toning: splotchy toning and/or deeply embedded toning is never positive no matter how "original."
ABOVE AVERAGE
This coin has above average eye appeal. It looks better than most examples you see of the particular "technical" grade. This coin could have above average luster and/or color, and/or above average contrast for a proof or proof-like, and/or somewhat above average depth of mirror if a proof. Above Average eye appeal can add up to a QUARTERPOINT to the "technical" grade and/or can increase the grade of a "liner" coin. Note on toning: splotchy toning and/or deeply embedded toning is never above average no matter how "original."
You were saying?
<< <i>I have seen a number of them in person and do not feel that the grading is liberal. >>
I'll repeat, just for you: "From a grading standpoint, I'd think it's pretty clear to all, here, those coins are every bit those PCGS assigned 'market grades.'" >>
It's certainly not clear to me. Because, as I said previously, I have seen a number of them in person and do not feel that the grading is liberal. Put another way, I don't necessarily think that "market grades" were assigned. Had that been the case, a number of the grades would probably have been higher.
EDIT: BTW, FWIW, I wasn't kidding when I said, earlier, I admire PCGS for laying out those guidelines. In fact, I have guidelines on coin-doctoring, circa 2000, from PCGS, in my personal files. At least they make efforts to tell you out front what the hell they're doing. And, they've always been that way, far as I know...
And WHY?.... Chickens just hate this... Pluck Em!
Ken
<< <i>But Mark, read those PCGS guidelines, again. I'd think it's a foregone conclusion from those that all these coins got bumped. How could they not have done that, given those guidelines? >>
We will have to agree to disagree. I see plenty of coins that appear to have received a grade bump due to their color. But a number of the ones from this collection did not fall into that category. And seeing as how I am not the world's loosest grader, I have a strong suspicion that sight-seen, a number of other people (perhaps including you) would feel the same way.
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>But Mark, read those PCGS guidelines, again. I'd think it's a foregone conclusion from those that all these coins got bumped. How could they not have done that, given those guidelines? >>
We will have to agree to disagree. I see plenty of coins that appear to have received a grade bump due to their color. But a number of the ones from this collection did not fall into that category. And seeing as how I am not the world's loosest grader, I have a strong suspicion that sight-seen, a number of other people (perhaps including you) would feel the same way.
Fair enough, Mark, for sure. Thank you. Have to scoot...
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Wonderful silver dollars.
Never be sorry you made this thread. There is always a difference of opinion when it comes to colorful coins. That is not such a bad thing.
If EVERYONE loved colorful coins then the prices would be 50 TIMES what they go for today, including your coins whether they range from $100 to $7500 or so.
But I admit I bought my first really awesome coin of COLOR (from the Sonnier collection) and I must admit these babies can be addicting.
<< <i>gsaguy- Over the past few weeks i was amazed that you had these coins raw, i see clearly now why. I only wish i had a collection like this but i missed the boat and can not start at the prices these are being sold for now. Congrats on what you did. With all the lovers and haters in this thread i would say you did it right. >>
Thanks for the kind words, I really do appreciate it. As most of you know I focused on the GSA sale but just couldn't resist buying beautifully toned Morgans when I could find them. I was fortunate in that I was buying them at a time when they were not in style and bought many of them very reasonably priced. I also never got into the grading hysteria though I was always looking for high quality pieces.
As I've said before, I'm afraid our hobby today focuses far too much on the grade failing to appreciate the coins for what they are.
The NAACC welcomes you!
PCGS did NOT do me or these coins any favors...
If anything,a few are under graded..
I don't want to answer questions about each coin,as I need to spend time working on my site...will be another long night.
Those who see these coins in person at central states,can have a look.
Again,with coins with this kind of color,the grades really don't matter..at least to me..
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com
<< <i>But I admit I bought my first really awesome coin of COLOR
The NAACC welcomes you!
Numismatists Aren't Always Color Collectors?
<< <i>Just looked at the 11 coins in question...
PCGS did NOT do me or these coins any favors...
If anything,a few are under graded..
I don't want to answer questions about each coin,as I need to spend time working on my site...will be another long night.
Those who see these coins in person at central states,can have a look.
Again,with coins with this kind of color,the grades really don't matter..at least to me.. >>
I think you got hosed on the MS-64 coin. However, the grade certainly is secondary to the colors.
1. They were selected by a very smart and discriminating collector.
2. They were stored a way for a long time and have not undergone any change in color.
3. Some of the coins are so beyond belief in the collection ,that they probably have been resold
by dealers for 12-15000 dollars. However these coins are few in number
4. The coins that Larry bought, were some of the nicest toners I have seen in years.
to be able to buy a MS 66 coin ,with wonderful toning ,has become a rare event.
5. The luster on most of the coins, is extraordinary.
6. The person who put together this collection is of such integrity and deep knowledge, that
the name Sonnier Collection ,will come to mean ,Original, Natural Toning, either in a Mint bag or
in a holder for a very long time ,under normal and natural conditions.
7. Many toned coins on the market are at best, dull, muddy colors and are more tarnished in the
worst sense of the word then toned.They are also so banged up that the marks distract the eye
from the toning.Many of these are 62s and 63s if not circulated.
8. The sale of this collection,will probably be the premier toned Morgan event of the entire year.
All of us have been privileged to witness the event, see a number of the coins and even have
the opportunity to buy some of them.
Camelot
<< <i>
8. The sale of this collection,will probably be the premier toned Morgan event of the entire year.
All of us have been privileged to witness the event, see a number of the coins and even have
the opportunity to buy some of them. >>
Did the Sunnywood collection sell this year or last year?
<< <i>
<< <i>
8. The sale of this collection,will probably be the premier toned Morgan event of the entire year.
All of us have been privileged to witness the event, see a number of the coins and even have
the opportunity to buy some of them. >>
Did the Sunnywood collection sell this year or last year?
Appears from this post most likely last year.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
8. The sale of this collection,will probably be the premier toned Morgan event of the entire year.
All of us have been privileged to witness the event, see a number of the coins and even have
the opportunity to buy some of them. >>
Did the Sunnywood collection sell this year or last year?
Appears from this post most likely last year. >>
Sunnywood sold to Simpson last year (I believe). Now it appears that some of the coins are being sold by Simpson via Legend.