If numismatic coins were subject to a Value Added Tax ...

291fifth

... would you continue collecting?

RWB

There isn't a VAT in the US, and no reasonable person has proposed it. Same for a national sales tax.

messydesk

If there were suddenly a European-sized 19% vig to the gummint on every transaction, you'd probably see the coin market seize up and/or move underground. Also, any VAT would have already hit everything else I actually need to buy and leave me with much less disposable income for coins.

MsMorrisine

I think it would adversely afect all of my spending, even on necessities... e.g coins

Longacre

We would still need to have an income tax or your very own Longacre would need to go on welfare because he would be out of work.

Or the government would muck up the entire tax system so much that your very own Longacre would be fully employed until the end of time, which is the more likely result if past practice is any indication of the future.

MrEureka

There isn't a VAT in the US, and no reasonable person has proposed it.

Obama Adviser: U.S. Needs VAT Tax
Wednesday, 07 Apr 2010 12:47 AM

The United States should consider raising taxes to help bring deficits under control and may need to consider a European-style value-added tax, White House adviser Paul Volcker said on Tuesday.

Volcker, answering a question from the audience at a New York Historical Society event, said the value-added tax "was not as toxic an idea" as it has been in the past and also said a carbon or other energy-related tax may become necessary.

Though he acknowledged that both were still unpopular ideas, he said getting entitlement costs and the U.S. budget deficit under control may require such moves. "If at the end of the day we need to raise taxes, we should raise taxes," he said.

© 2010 Reuters.

291fifth

<< <i>There isn't a VAT in the US, and no reasonable person has proposed it. Same for a national sales tax. >>



But the question is ... What if?

MsMorrisine

a VAT or national sales tax is just a bad idea.

I can see a gas tax to pay for roads and (supposed to be) paid for by the users (who buy gas, but does all the money go to roads & come from the gas tax any more?)

Anyway, the purpose of a VAT or sales tax is just to raise more money. Why go through the trouble of administering a new tax instead of just raising income taxes?

RWB

National sales tax has been a dead idea since it was squashed in 1932 by citizen complaints. It (or VAT) occasionally gets mentioned for scare value - kind of like Freddy and his chain saw.

PerryHall

<< <i>There isn't a VAT in the US, and no reasonable person has proposed it. Same for a national sales tax. >>



Former Fed Reserve chairman and current economic adviser to B.O. Paul Volcker discussed this in an interview a couple of weeks ago. Is he unreasonable? Every European country has a VAT and, if we are going to have European style social programs, we will eventually need European style taxes to pay for them. Count on it.

messydesk

<< <i>

<< <i>RWB: There isn't a VAT in the US, and no reasonable person has proposed it. >>



Obama Adviser: U.S. Needs VAT Tax ... >>


RWB's argument holds.

PerryHall

Those of you who think there will never be a VAT---I sure hope you are right. There is no way that collectibles and precious metals would ever be exempt. Tangible assets and PM's compete with the dollar and Wall Street which is not in the best interests of the government.

yellowkid

<< <i>There isn't a VAT in the US, and no reasonable person has proposed it. Same for a national sales tax. >>



It mus ba a slow morning.....

TwoSides2aCoin

Would you ?

dbcoin

Why go through the trouble of administering a new tax instead of just raising income taxes?

Because 47% of the population pays no Federal Income Tax. A VAT would hit everyone. The theory is as a VAT comes in, income taxes are lowered. I doubt that would be the case though.

For me, if the VAT was over 10%, I would probably stop collecting for a while and would rush to sell what I did have before it came in.

Longacre

There was a good article in the WSJ recently (if I recall) about the VAT and income tax rates in various countries around the world, and the assumed rates in the US.

Raybob15239

<< <i>Because 47% of the population pays no Federal Income Tax. A VAT would hit everyone. The theory is as a VAT comes in, income taxes are lowered. I doubt that would be the case though. >>



The proposals floated also call for a "refund" much like the earned income tax credit to lower income individuals... another redistribution of wealth... more socialism.

Steve27

If there was a VAT, it would be on everything, not just coins, and it would eliminate the regular income tax. So I would MORE money to buy coins.

WTCG

<< <i>There isn't a VAT in the US, and no reasonable person has proposed it. Same for a national sales tax. >>



That's correct, so let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>... would you continue collecting? >>



Only if I could do it tax-free.

PerryHall

<< <i>

<< <i>There isn't a VAT in the US, and no reasonable person has proposed it. Same for a national sales tax. >>



That's correct, so let's not get ahead of ourselves here. >>



And how do you guys propose we pay for all the massive government spending or don't you think there is a problem?

johnny9434

absolutly NO. parts are already expensive enough as it is

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>There isn't a VAT in the US, and no reasonable person has proposed it. Same for a national sales tax. >>



That's correct, so let's not get ahead of ourselves here. >>



And how do you guys propose we pay for all the massive government spending or don't you think there is a problem? >>



Not my problem. Nobody bails me out if I overspend.

mudskippie

Well, according to my CPA, the US government is considering whether to raise US personal income tax to European tax levels which is about 45% to 58% to eliminate US deficit. I have not heard anything about VAT; however, if coins were subject to VAT, then I would expect a sudden jump in value to offset the extra fee. Furthermore, I obtain my coins from France, Coin Shows, and sometimes Ebay, so the VAT will not affect my buying habit. Why? Obviously, there were no VAT on importation, cash only at Coin Shows, and I only buy from Ebay sellers who did not charge taxes.

pf70collector

If there was a VAT, I would end my coin collecting and probably just get out of the hobby since most of my collection is in precious metals. Its not taxes that need to be raised, but spending has to be cut. I believe the VAT will hurt the consumer supported economy.

golfer72

"Not my problem. Nobody bails me out if I overspend" You dont really believe that do you? If you live in this country its your problem. When the dollar is devalued because the country is bankrupt you will then see how much of a problem it is for you.

ricko

Absolutely nothing would surprise me during this period. I do believe though, that such moves, will serve to expand the underground economy. There are more taxes now than most people realize, and it is time people became aware of how much of their income is paid in taxes to the federal, state and local governments. If this knowledge were to become widespread, it would definitely cause a change in the economic landscape. Except, of course, with those 47% who pay NO taxes. I buy coins privately for the most part now, taxes are one of the reasons. Cheers, RickO

Unknown

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yellowkid

<< <i>"Not my problem. Nobody bails me out if I overspend" You dont really believe that do you? If you live in this country its your problem. When the dollar is devalued because the country is bankrupt you will then see how much of a problem it is for you. >>



Just for the record, the country isn't, and can't go "bankrupt," they make the money.

And one of the reasons tax's are so high is because so many people don't pay any.

Unknown

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BAJJERFAN

<< <i>"Not my problem. Nobody bails me out if I overspend" You dont really believe that do you? If you live in this country its your problem. When the dollar is devalued because the country is bankrupt you will then see how much of a problem it is for you. >>



I absolutely believe that. I don't recall checking a box on the ballot giving the winner a blank check or a bottomless bank account. They need to learn fiscal responsibility just like the rest of us.

yellowkid

We all want fiscal responsibility, until it affects us, be it SS, local school taxes, whatever. When they actually cut anything everyone screams.

And hey, we're really getting OT, that's enough from me.

500Bay

If there is a VAT started in the USA, it will be considered in the pricing and buying decision by consumers. Some states still charge a sales tax on coins, which people beat by buying accross state lines. It will not be that easy to beat with a national VAT, but the end price will be figured in the same way as a commission on an auction sale. I doubt it would stop anyone from buying coins, but it will hurt business for buyers and sellers.

PerryHall

<< <i>I doubt it would stop anyone from buying coins, but it will hurt business for buyers and sellers. >>



Huh? How will it hurt business if it wouldn't stop anyone from buying coins?

EagleEye

Heck with the Govt. instituting a VAT, lets talk about the real power out there - eBay. They keep increasing their "taxes" all the time.

Sonorandesertrat

Buyers will simply factor in a VAT in deciding whether to purchase a coin, rather like auction bidders factoring the buyer's premium into their bids.
If a particular coin is something I really want, a VAT will not affect my decision at all, but it might cause me to pause if I was thinking about an
impulsive purchase of something (e.g., a foreign coin).

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>

<< <i>There isn't a VAT in the US, and no reasonable person has proposed it. Same for a national sales tax. >>



But the question is ... What if? >>



What if politicians were paid minimum wage ?
I think it should be on the ballot.

Bear

Of course.If they had an ugly tax, some of us would still be ugly.

Aegis3

Columnist Ezra Klein has said that the VAT tax is often unpopular because liberals view it is highly regressive while conservatives view it as bringing in too much revenue. It thus would become more popular if liberals focused on how much revenue it would bring in and conservatives focused on its regressiveness. (In fact, the so-called "fair tax" idea touted by economic libertarians is rather similar in practice.)

Speaking personally, I view the VAT to be rather regressive, and thus am against it (see first sentence of post). While the poor may pay less in the personal income tax (or even none), they are still subject to sales tax, patroll tax, and numerous others taxes and fees, plus impoverished areas the costs of the basic necessities of life are harder to come by and often more expensive than in other areas. Adding another regressize tax would thus not be the answer. It is true that the national debt is something that will need to be paid off, what with the working economic stimulus and finally paying for two previously unpaid-for wars. The answer to this I think is to add progressivity _back_ to the income tax, along with a financial transactions tax. We've been able to decrease the debt before, so there's no reason we cannot again.

As to the topic question, of course I'd continue collecting. Growing up as a kid, the in-state coin stores charged sales tax (As there was a sales tax), and I paid it; never thought I'd do otherwise. I'd of course also like for any sales/VAT tax to be pre-included in prices first, rather than stated price+tax, as is typically the case in retail establishments these days, but that's another topic and even more off topic.

Longacre

<< <i>Speaking personally, I view the VAT to be rather regressive, and thus am against it (see first sentence of post). While the poor may pay less in the personal income tax (or even none), they are still subject to sales tax, patroll tax, and numerous others taxes and fees, plus impoverished areas the costs of the basic necessities of life are harder to come by and often more expensive than in other areas. Adding another regressize tax would thus not be the answer. It is true that the national debt is something that will need to be paid off, what with the working economic stimulus and finally paying for two previously unpaid-for wars. The answer to this I think is to add progressivity _back_ to the income tax, along with a financial transactions tax. We've been able to decrease the debt before, so there's no reason we cannot again. >>





This response brought a tear to Longacre's eye. Well written.

RedneckHB

<< <i>There isn't a VAT in the US, and no reasonable person has proposed it. Same for a national sales tax. >>




If we dont have one by 2012, we surely will by 2013.

RedHerring

The Obama Administration is looking at a VAT as we speak.

Anticipate a 5% Federal VAT by the end of next year.

It is almost certain to happen.

yellowkid

<< <i>The Obama Administration is looking at a VAT as we speak.

Anticipate a 5% Federal VAT by the end of next year.

It is almost certain to happen. >>



Who have you been listening too? It's not going to happen.

Justacommeman

There will surely be a new tax. It will have a hip new name. You will be told it will save you money in the end. MJ

ArizonaJack

<< <i>There will surely be a new tax. It will have a hip new name. You will be told it will save you money in the end. MJ >>



Listen to him folks, he is telling you right

Goldbully

<< <i>

<< <i>There will surely be a new tax. It will have a hip new name. You will be told it will save you money in the end. MJ >>



Listen to him folks, he is telling you right >>



Ah yes, the tax that will save us money!!!

RedHerring

My professors with PhD's in economics and finance. Plus the WSJ/Bloomberg Financial/The Economist. It's all over.


The VAT is 99% certain within 2 years.

Coinosaurus

Why do I get the feeling this thread is about VAT and not coins

Harry779

"If there was a VAT, it would be on everything, not just coins, and it would eliminate the regular income tax. So I would MORE money to buy coins."

No....they want to KEEP the existing regular income tax AND ADD a VAT too.

It will crush all business...including the coin business.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>Why do I get the feeling this thread is about VAT and not coins >>



Cuz if we get VAT, there won't be coins, OR There will be a lot more informal trading/collecting.

Placid

Cool the Beatles can redo their song.
Vat man! Yeah yeah yeah im the Vat man!