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Question for those that buy silver bars.

PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,446 ✭✭✭✭✭
in Precious Metals
Do you only collect one brand of bar or do you buy whatever you can get a good deal on? I fall in the later group and I like as much variety as possible to make things a little more interesting. What say you?

Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    gsa1fangsa1fan Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭
    Price my #1 deciding factor. I do have a few I paid WAY over forimage
    Avid collector of GSA's.
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    CiccioCiccio Posts: 1,405 ✭


    << <i>Do you only collect one brand of bar or do you buy whatever you can get a good deal on? I fall in the later group and I like as much variety as possible to make things a little more interesting. What say you? >>



    Since I collect them, I buy the ones I like and try to have a nice variety of different designs.
    On the other hand, I also try to put some PM aside. However, I don't buy silver just because it's silver, I have to like it even paying a little premium over spot (JM, RCM and Governative rounds). Same with gold.
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    WeissWeiss Posts: 9,935 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think I mentioned in that first, second, third tier thread that I don't really want anything other than the brands I'm familiar with: JM, Engelhard for 10 oz silver, preferably in plastic. If Pamp and Credit had readily available 10 oz bars, I'd buy them in a heartbeat.
    Even at a good price I usually pass on other 10-oz bars. If I can get Eng or JM at a good price, my day is made.

    I don't think I have any other maker in 10 oz.

    I own several dozen Silvertown 1-oz bars but they're far from my favorite. I don't foresee buying more of them.

    Long and short: JM & Engelhard, and then "other" if I'm in a bad way, if the price is really, really (really) good, and the maker is interesting.

    Like these:



    image
    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
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    ZubieZubie Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭✭
    I just made the switch of about 800 ozs of 10oz silver bars from 2nd tier and 3d tier silver bars to nothing but 5oz and 10oz JM bars. I like the look and style, the fact that they have serial numbers and the respected JM name. I think the small premium that I pay now (1-3% over spot), will translate to a larger profit when I sell these down the road when silver is $50-$100 (wishful thinking).
    Positive BST Transactions with:
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    image
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    tydyetydye Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭
    My preference is name brand 10 oz bars and like the OP I like variety. Probably have about 20 different types of 10 oz bars now. All 999 is fair game at the right price. I do stay way clear of sterling though.
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    calleochocalleocho Posts: 1,569 ✭✭
    when it comes to bars i only buy Engelhard or JM.
    "Women should be obscene and not heard. "
    Groucho Marx
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    DrBusterDrBuster Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I just made the switch of about 800 ozs of 10oz silver bars from 2nd tier and 3d tier silver bars to nothing but 5oz and 10oz JM bars. I like the look and style, the fact that they have serial numbers and the respected JM name. I think the small premium that I pay now (1-3% over spot), will translate to a larger profit when I sell these down the road when silver is $50-$100 (wishful thinking). >>



    So on the 80 bar transition, what was the oz cost? You sitting at 800oz for 800oz or is the swap penalty in play?
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    halfhunterhalfhunter Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭
    Anyone stack the "Golden Anaylitical" kitkat style bars?
    Any premium over bullion on these?

    HH
    Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set:
    1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
    Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
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    ocon4008ocon4008 Posts: 1,703
    <<...or do you buy whatever you can get a good deal on?>>

    Yes, I am a pack rat; I like shiny.image
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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,446 ✭✭✭✭✭
    When I see a bar from a company that I'm not familiar with, I do a google search to see if they are a legitimate company. I've never seen or heard of a fake silver bar. Anyone here ever see or even heard of a fake silver bar?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    ZubieZubie Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭✭
    I misspoke. I had about 300 ozs of assorted 10 oz silver bars (US Assay, Scottsdale, Engelhard, Academy) and sold all of those bars on the BST/PM board and Ebay this past month, then, bought nothing but JM 10 oz bars. I also took $7000 out of an investment and bought another 400 ozs of JM bars. Hard to answer your question because I bought and sold so much lately, but, I probably lost about $150-$200 making the transition. Although, I feel much better about my stack being almost all JM now.

    Approx JM silver bar breakdown now:
    3 x 100 oz Struck bars
    40 x 10 oz bars
    10 x 5 oz bars
    30 x 1 oz bars
    20 x 1/2 oz bars

    I was just thinking that I'm probably done for awhile. But after finding out I'm getting $2000 back on taxes and silver is starting to pull back, I may go grab another 100ozs???

    Wow...PMs are addicting!!!

    Positive BST Transactions with:
    Overdate, BestMR, Weather11AM, TDEC1000, Carew4me, BigMarty58, Coinsarefun, Golfer72, UnknownComic, DMarks, JFoot13, ElKevvo, Truthteller, Duxbutt, TwoSides2aCoin, PerryHall, mhammerman, Papabear, Wingsrule, WTCG, MillerJW, Ciccio, zrlevin, dantheman984, tee135, jdimmick, gsa1fan, jmski52, SUMORADA, guitarwes, bstat1020, pitboss, meltdown, Schmitz7, 30AnvZ28, pragmaticgoat, wondercoin & MkMan123
    image
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    gecko109gecko109 Posts: 8,231 ✭
    I almost exclusively buy 5 oz bars now. Im more picky on the size than on the manufacturer (which is probably silly). Something built into my personality wants uniformity of size though....I cant fight it. Of the types of struck 5 ozers, I'd love to have all JM and Eng, but pricing considerations compell me to stack Silvertowne, and Sunshine...which is perfectly acceptable in my mind.
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    halfhunterhalfhunter Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I almost exclusively buy 5 oz bars now. Im more picky on the size than on the manufacturer (which is probably silly). Something built into my personality wants uniformity of size though....I cant fight it. Of the types of struck 5 ozers, I'd love to have all JM and Eng, but pricing considerations compell me to stack Silvertowne, and Sunshine...which is perfectly acceptable in my mind. >>



    My thoughts exactly. When Ag reaches $50-60ozt I doubt that premiums will still be there as they are now. JMO

    HH
    Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set:
    1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
    Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
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    calleochocalleocho Posts: 1,569 ✭✭
    the prices have quadrupled in the last 7 years or so ...the premiums remain, why wouldnt they remain if silver doubles from 18 an ounce.

    My personal experience selling generic silver has not been too good...its hard to get a good price and some dealers dont even want unless it is at a huge discount, you have to sell on ebay and deal with all that stuff not to mention leaving paper trails.

    with Engelhard and JM there has never been a problem and most dealers actually are actually eager to buy them.

    "Women should be obscene and not heard. "
    Groucho Marx
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    WingsruleWingsrule Posts: 2,983 ✭✭✭✭
    When Ag reaches $50-60ozt I doubt that premiums will still be there as they are now.

    At $50-60 / ozt, I could care less about a $1-2 premium. image
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    gecko109gecko109 Posts: 8,231 ✭


    << <i>the prices have quadrupled in the last 7 years or so ...the premiums remain, why wouldnt they remain if silver doubles from 18 an ounce.

    My personal experience selling generic silver has not been too good...its hard to get a good price and some dealers dont even want unless it is at a huge discount, you have to sell on ebay and deal with all that stuff not to mention leaving paper trails.

    with Engelhard and JM there has never been a problem and most dealers actually are actually eager to buy them. >>






    I agree with your assesment above. However, lets define "generic" as being x-mas rounds, non hall marked poured bars, and the like. I hardly consider Sunshine to be a "generic" silver maker!
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    ZubieZubie Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭✭
    I agree with you guys about the 5ozers. I love that size! I decided to keep my ten 5 oz "kit kat" bars and a few 5 oz old pours.
    Positive BST Transactions with:
    Overdate, BestMR, Weather11AM, TDEC1000, Carew4me, BigMarty58, Coinsarefun, Golfer72, UnknownComic, DMarks, JFoot13, ElKevvo, Truthteller, Duxbutt, TwoSides2aCoin, PerryHall, mhammerman, Papabear, Wingsrule, WTCG, MillerJW, Ciccio, zrlevin, dantheman984, tee135, jdimmick, gsa1fan, jmski52, SUMORADA, guitarwes, bstat1020, pitboss, meltdown, Schmitz7, 30AnvZ28, pragmaticgoat, wondercoin & MkMan123
    image
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    calleochocalleocho Posts: 1,569 ✭✭
    Gecko,

    I remember a while ago that someone posted a basic breakdown of silver bars and their public perceptions, something like...

    Engelhard, JM and Credit suisse --1st tier

    sunshine, apmex, and other fairly well known refiners and distributors --2nd tier

    christmas, mother's day rounds , weird home made looking bars etc --3rd tier

    I forgot exactly how it went but it made a lot of sense to me.




    "Women should be obscene and not heard. "
    Groucho Marx
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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,446 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Gecko,

    I remember a while ago that someone posted a basic breakdown of silver bars and their public perceptions, something like...

    Engelhard, JM and Credit suisse --1st tier

    sunshine, apmex, and other fairly well known refiners and distributors --2nd tier

    christmas, mother's day rounds , weird home made looking bars etc --3rd tier

    I forgot exactly how it went but it made a lot of sense to me. >>



    I don't consider any "well known refiners and distributors" to be second tier. Silver is silver and when it's thrown into the melting pot, who cares what the bar used to look like?






    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    AboutAgAboutAg Posts: 201 ✭✭


    << <i>I don't consider any "well known refiners and distributors" to be second tier. Silver is silver and when it's thrown into the melting pot, who cares what the bar used to look like? >>



    Tell you what; I'll trade you my 2nd and 3rd tier silver bars for your Engelhards, J&M, and Credit Suisse bars!

    If you have verified that it is .999 fine silver, and are planning to use the silver, they would be valued the same. But, without assaying or other testing, the tier 1 bars can be trusted more than the 2nd tier bars, and the 2nd tier bars more than the 3rd tier bars (which often don't even have a hallmark on them).
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    WeissWeiss Posts: 9,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's that tier thread
    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
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    gecko109gecko109 Posts: 8,231 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I don't consider any "well known refiners and distributors" to be second tier. Silver is silver and when it's thrown into the melting pot, who cares what the bar used to look like? >>



    Tell you what; I'll trade you my 2nd and 3rd tier silver bars for your Engelhards, J&M, and Credit Suisse bars!

    If you have verified that it is .999 fine silver, and are planning to use the silver, they would be valued the same. But, without assaying or other testing, the tier 1 bars can be trusted more than the 2nd tier bars, and the 2nd tier bars more than the 3rd tier bars (which often don't even have a hallmark on them). >>





    Whether or not Perry thinks they are all the same, they clearly are not. A JM or ENG or Credit bar will almost always sell for a premium to a Sunshine, Silvertowne, or Apmex bar on ebay. However, that disparity doesnt exist in 95% of the B&M shops I have ever set foot in. At least on the dealer "sell" side anyway (I have never sold a silver bar to a dealer before, but have bought plenty). You simply dont pay more for a "tier 1" bar in most B&M's than you do for a "tier 2".

    Having said all that, Perry is absolutely correct that there is zero significant difference in silver content between a Credit Suisse 10 oz bar and a Silvertowne 10 oz bar. The Credit is simply more collectible. But I completely trust the stated fineness and content of both bars equally. If you buy silver as a hobby, then get the Credit. If you buy silver as simply a store of wealth, then the Silvertowne does the exact same thing at a decent savings if you are buying your bars off ebay.
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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,446 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I don't consider any "well known refiners and distributors" to be second tier. Silver is silver and when it's thrown into the melting pot, who cares what the bar used to look like? >>



    Tell you what; I'll trade you my 2nd and 3rd tier silver bars for your Engelhards, J&M, and Credit Suisse bars!

    If you have verified that it is .999 fine silver, and are planning to use the silver, they would be valued the same. But, without assaying or other testing, the tier 1 bars can be trusted more than the 2nd tier bars, and the 2nd tier bars more than the 3rd tier bars (which often don't even have a hallmark on them). >>



    You need to reread my post. I never mentioned third tier bars where the maufacturer is not identified on the bar. I don't buy those bars either. I'd like to hear from CaptHenway on this issue. He works at Harlan J. Berk and buys and sells silver bars in addition to coins. I'd like to hear if he pays a premium for Engelhard and J-M vs. Silvertown and Sunshine Mining silver bars.


    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    gecko109gecko109 Posts: 8,231 ✭
    "I'd like to hear if he pays a premium for Engelhard and J-M vs. Silvertown and Sunshine Mining silver bars."


    I know where my money is on this!
    image
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    WeissWeiss Posts: 9,935 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd like to hear his take, too.

    But I personally always consider Gresham's law. If more people like JM and Eng, it would be a mistake to pick other mfgs over those two, all else being equal. If they don't bring a premium when it's time to sell, they may be easier to sell because of a larger pool of potential buyers. Or they may still be bought when the dealer doesn't really need more bars right then knowing he might flip them faster--maybe to customers he knows prefer them.

    I also just happen to like the look of JM bars. I think they're one of the best designs.
    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,446 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Tell you what; I'll trade you my 2nd and 3rd tier silver bars for your Engelhards, J&M, and Credit Suisse bars! >>



    Wouldn't it be easier if I just buy your second tier bars at 10% back of melt and just take all that junk off your hands?image

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    AboutAgAboutAg Posts: 201 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Tell you what; I'll trade you my 2nd and 3rd tier silver bars for your Engelhards, J&M, and Credit Suisse bars! >>



    Wouldn't it be easier if I just buy your second tier bars at 10% back of melt and just take all that junk off your hands?image >>



    Sure; does a 10% spread sound generous? I'll buy your 1st tiers at melt. <G>
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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,446 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>I don't consider any "well known refiners and distributors" to be second tier. Silver is silver and when it's thrown into the melting pot, who cares what the bar used to look like? >>



    Tell you what; I'll trade you my 2nd and 3rd tier silver bars for your Engelhards, J&M, and Credit Suisse bars!

    If you have verified that it is .999 fine silver, and are planning to use the silver, they would be valued the same. But, without assaying or other testing, the tier 1 bars can be trusted more than the 2nd tier bars, and the 2nd tier bars more than the 3rd tier bars (which often don't even have a hallmark on them). >>



    You need to reread my post. I never mentioned third tier bars where the maufacturer is not identified on the bar. I don't buy those bars either. I'd like to heard from CaptHenway on this issue. He works at Harlan J. Berk and buys and sells silver bars in addition to coins. I'd like to hear if he pays a premium for Engelhard and J-M vs. Silvertown and Sunshine Mining silver bars. >>



    TTT in the hope that CaptHenway can comment on this issue.




    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    JimDepotJimDepot Posts: 957 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>I don't consider any "well known refiners and distributors" to be second tier. Silver is silver and when it's thrown into the melting pot, who cares what the bar used to look like? >>



    Tell you what; I'll trade you my 2nd and 3rd tier silver bars for your Engelhards, J&M, and Credit Suisse bars!

    If you have verified that it is .999 fine silver, and are planning to use the silver, they would be valued the same. But, without assaying or other testing, the tier 1 bars can be trusted more than the 2nd tier bars, and the 2nd tier bars more than the 3rd tier bars (which often don't even have a hallmark on them). >>



    You need to reread my post. I never mentioned third tier bars where the maufacturer is not identified on the bar. I don't buy those bars either. I'd like to heard from CaptHenway on this issue. He works at Harlan J. Berk and buys and sells silver bars in addition to coins. I'd like to hear if he pays a premium for Engelhard and J-M vs. Silvertown and Sunshine Mining silver bars. >>



    TTT in the hope that CaptHenway can comment on this issue. >>




    I was wondering the same thing.
    image

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,565 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As a rule, we offer the same discount for what have been called first and second-tier silver, including the obsolete birthday and anniversary and wedding and etc. bars and rounds (which for some reason are harder to sell, even though they are good silver), and even less for crude poured bars that are even harder to sell.

    We are more inclined to dicker upwards a bit on the first tier bars if necessary to buy them. Our willingness to dicker is also influenced by the quantity of stock we already have on hand and the current market demand. When nobody is buying, we won't chase. When we need inventory, we will chase.

    I would say that if you already have some product and you wish that you had some other product, it probably is not a good idea to pay a premium to swap products weight for weight. Rather, be patient and buy the products you want when it is opportune for you to buy ounces, and/or sell the products you don't want when it is opportune for you to sell ounces. Don't just pay to swap ounces for ounces.

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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