This is already listed on the World Forum,

JulianJulian Posts: 3,395 ✭✭✭
but it affects all coin collectors. Please read and act.

From: Scott Semans <[email protected]>
Date: April 12, 2010 11:11:52 AM PDT
To: undisclosed-recipients:;
Subject: A threat to our hobby

Please forgive this intrusion. Whether you collect coins over 250 years old or not, this is an issue that should concern not only every coin collector, but any world citizen who believes in the right to own property, and the rule of law. Does that sound grandiose? The question being considered by a secretive, unelected panel in Washington DC is whether coins, which have passed freely from hand to hand for centuries according to the intent of their issuers, have morphed into something that radical archaeologists and nationalistic politicians call "cultural property," which you are not fit to own. And the practical question this biased and unaccountable committee will decide in two weeks is whether U.S. Customs will be mandated to seize virtually all older coins they think are of Italian origin, with no practical recourse. Why then should you send a fax to these lost fools begging them to honor common sense and basic human rights? Because they are being sued, and if they continue to ignore input they are required to consider, it will hurt them. Your fax (using the link below) is one tiny nail in the coffin of Archaeological Retentionism, the doctrine that only archaeologists should handle objects of past cultures, and only with permission of those governments now in control of ancient lands.

Scott Semans
www.coincoin.com

Begin forwarded message:

The U.S. State Department has announced a date of May 6-7 for Cultural Property Advisory Committee hearings on the request for renewal of the Memorandum of Understanding with Italy. In practical terms, the U.S. government is about to decide whether antiquities and other forms of cultural property that Italy claims as its heritage ought to be restricted from entry into the U.S. unless accompanied by Italian export permits. There is already such an agreement in place, but ancient coins have been exempted twice before in these renewal requests that cover a 5-year window. We have very good reason to believe that Italy and members of the archaeological community will this time seek to add coins to the list of restricted items. There is a period open for public comment on the issue and the best way to comment is by fax.

Why oppose these import restrictions? Because Roman coins are at the very core of the cultural experience that we all treasure. They have circulated all over the known world in antiquity and since through trade and collector markets. It is impossible to distinguish a Roman coin found in Britain, for example, from exactly the same type, mint, etc. found in Italy. Requiring an export permit from Italy on a coin found and legally exported from Britain would not only be impractical, it would not have any legal foundation. Still, any court challenge by an individual is unlikely since the legal costs usually far exceed the value of seized objects. Import restrictions are simply not a viable solution to protecting archaeological sites. They are an idealist panacea that cause far more harm to society than any possible good. Excluding the U.S. collector and trade from the legitimate world market for Roman coins, or unilaterally forcing draconian documentation requirements on Americans, would be grossly prejudicial and would certainly be against the interests of American citizens and their traditional freedoms.

We believe as a collector you will want to oppose any expansion of the MOU with Italy to include coins. EVERY person reading this has an interest in ancient coins, even if you don't collect Greek or Roman coins, we would like you to make your view known. The entire hobby is being challenged. There is simply nothing more important to do RIGHT NOW than to take five minutes and register your concern.

The industries primary lawyer, Peter Tompa, added the following in a letter we received this weekend.

The US State Department has announced an extremely short two week time frame for commenting on the renewal of the current MOU with Italy.

If you are interested in commenting about the upcoming MOU and the possible inclusion of coins from the Greek and Roman cultures of Italy, there are two ways to do so.

First, you can fax a letter to CPAC following the directions here: <http://culturalpropertyobserver.blogspot.com/2010/04/state-department-provid es-short-notice.html>

Or, second, you can take advantage of the ACCG Fax Wizard. See <http://www.accg.us/issues/news/fax-wizard-is-open-for-comment-to-us-state-de partment> and <http://www.vcoins.com/fax/&gt;

If restrictions are imposed, Customs will treat any coin on the designated list as presumptively stolen from Italy. The importer can only rebut that presumption with an Italian export license or through certifications of the exporter and importer detailing provenance back to the date when the restrictions were imposed (which is often unavailable-- and even more impossible to procure as time goes on). I should also note this rule would only discriminate against American collectors. Collectors in the EU-- including in Italy itself-- do not have to make such a showing when they purchase ancient coins.

While archaeologists are rightly concerned about looting of archaeological sites, the guilty until proven innocent remedy suggested represents overkill and will only act to punish those who want to abide by the law.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.

eBaystore

Comments

  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,700
    +1
  • rickoricko Posts: 71,709 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bump. Cheers, RickO
  • Aegis3Aegis3 Posts: 2,790 ✭✭✭
    Ah yes, the ACCG. The primary reason I no longer collect ancient coins.
    --

    Ed. S.

    (EJS)
  • LanLordLanLord Posts: 11,562 ✭✭✭✭
    Perhaps I'm slow or just missing something, but how does this affect all collectors?

    Someone who has no old Italian coins, is not sending any coins internationally or never even selling a coin, where is the impact?

    I'm not saying that I don't care about this subject, I just want to clarify the hyperbole.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 37,517 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Perhaps all pre-Civil War U.S. coins should be declared as "cultural property" by our government and all foreign governments should be required to collect these coins from their citizens and sent to our government. China would be exempt since the vast majority of these coins are fake.
  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,855 ✭✭✭
    What the heck, with the continuing destruction of property ownership none of this is a surprise. Damn them. I received this earlier and was going to post it. Glad it's up there .


    Only point I disagree with Mr Seaman is the point where he calls them lost fools. The politicians and "lawmakers" are not fools. They are evil.

    "Memorandum of Understanding", indeed.image
  • JulianJulian Posts: 3,395 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Perhaps I'm slow or just missing something, but how does this affect all collectors?

    Someone who has no old Italian coins, is not sending any coins internationally or never even selling a coin, where is the impact?

    I'm not saying that I don't care about this subject, I just want to clarify the hyperbole. >>



    Maybe a bit of hyperbole, but where will it stop? What if you change your collecting habits?
    PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
    I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.

    eBaystore
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 19,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This day and age, I suppose nothing should be surprising anymore.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.



  • << <i>Maybe a bit of hyperbole, but where will it stop? What if you change your collecting habits? >>

    Or what if the regulators change theirs? Who says they'll stop at ancients, anyway?
  • WinLoseWinWinLoseWin Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Perhaps I'm slow or just missing something, but how does this affect all collectors?

    Someone who has no old Italian coins, is not sending any coins internationally or never even selling a coin, where is the impact?

    I'm not saying that I don't care about this subject, I just want to clarify the hyperbole. >>



    Maybe a bit of hyperbole, but where will it stop? What if you change your collecting habits? >>





    And what if the focus of regulators attention changes also. It would not be the first time that US coin collecting was the target to be nearly destroyed.

    The following excerpt is from here:
    bill that would have outlawed coin collecting




    << <i>On May 21, 1965, Sen. Alan Bible, D-Nevada, introduced a bill that would have outlawed coin collecting. The bill cited the export, selling or purchase of coins as activities that would be made illegal with the passage of this bill. “Bona fide collectors’ items” would be exempt from this.

    The Treasury Department would publish a list of coins they considered numismatically desirable, and thus, legal to hold. Collectors of modern coins, or those who saved one date and mintmark of each series, disliked this bill, as they would not be allowed to hold such common coins as Franklin or Kennedy half dollars, Roosevelt dimes, and nearly all Jefferson nickels. Technically, it would also be unlawful for a child to own a piggy bank, as it would be an accumulation in excess of what was needed for personal use. Exporting of coins would also be illegal, so a dealer in the United States could not fulfill orders to a collector in Canada, or Great Britain, or any other foreign country.

    A group of 100 collectors and dealers formed the United Coin Collectors Alliance in June, with its purpose being to defeat the Bible bill. Chet Krause, publisher of Numismatic News, served as the group’s executive director of communications, and urged coin hobbyists to do whatever they could to prevent passage of the Bible bill. >>


    "To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

  • JulianJulian Posts: 3,395 ✭✭✭
    ttt
    PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
    I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.

    eBaystore
  • BBNBBN Posts: 3,742 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    The following excerpt is from here:
    bill that would have outlawed coin collecting


    On May 21, 1965, Sen. Alan Bible, D-Nevada, introduced a bill that would have outlawed coin collecting. The bill cited the export, selling or purchase of coins as activities that would be made illegal with the passage of this bill. “Bona fide collectors’ items” would be exempt from this.

    The Treasury Department would publish a list of coins they considered numismatically desirable, and thus, legal to hold. Collectors of modern coins, or those who saved one date and mintmark of each series, disliked this bill, as they would not be allowed to hold such common coins as Franklin or Kennedy half dollars, Roosevelt dimes, and nearly all Jefferson nickels. Technically, it would also be unlawful for a child to own a piggy bank, as it would be an accumulation in excess of what was needed for personal use. Exporting of coins would also be illegal, so a dealer in the United States could not fulfill orders to a collector in Canada, or Great Britain, or any other foreign country.

    A group of 100 collectors and dealers formed the United Coin Collectors Alliance in June, with its purpose being to defeat the Bible bill. Chet Krause, publisher of Numismatic News, served as the group’s executive director of communications, and urged coin hobbyists to do whatever they could to prevent passage of the Bible bill. >>





    what this here sounds like is this Bible guy felt that money didn't belong to the individual.

    Positive BST Transactions (buyers and sellers): wondercoin, blu62vette, BAJJERFAN, privatecoin
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 37,517 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    The following excerpt is from here:
    bill that would have outlawed coin collecting


    On May 21, 1965, Sen. Alan Bible, D-Nevada, introduced a bill that would have outlawed coin collecting. The bill cited the export, selling or purchase of coins as activities that would be made illegal with the passage of this bill. “Bona fide collectors’ items” would be exempt from this.

    The Treasury Department would publish a list of coins they considered numismatically desirable, and thus, legal to hold. Collectors of modern coins, or those who saved one date and mintmark of each series, disliked this bill, as they would not be allowed to hold such common coins as Franklin or Kennedy half dollars, Roosevelt dimes, and nearly all Jefferson nickels. Technically, it would also be unlawful for a child to own a piggy bank, as it would be an accumulation in excess of what was needed for personal use. Exporting of coins would also be illegal, so a dealer in the United States could not fulfill orders to a collector in Canada, or Great Britain, or any other foreign country.

    A group of 100 collectors and dealers formed the United Coin Collectors Alliance in June, with its purpose being to defeat the Bible bill. Chet Krause, publisher of Numismatic News, served as the group’s executive director of communications, and urged coin hobbyists to do whatever they could to prevent passage of the Bible bill. >>



    what this here sounds like is this Bible guy felt that money didn't belong to the individual. >>



    Unfortunately, there are too many politicians in Washington that still feel this way.







  • adamlaneusadamlaneus Posts: 6,986 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    The following excerpt is from here:
    bill that would have outlawed coin collecting


    On May 21, 1965, Sen. Alan Bible, D-Nevada, introduced a bill that would have outlawed coin collecting. The bill cited the export, selling or purchase of coins as activities that would be made illegal with the passage of this bill. “Bona fide collectors’ items” would be exempt from this.

    The Treasury Department would publish a list of coins they considered numismatically desirable, and thus, legal to hold. Collectors of modern coins, or those who saved one date and mintmark of each series, disliked this bill, as they would not be allowed to hold such common coins as Franklin or Kennedy half dollars, Roosevelt dimes, and nearly all Jefferson nickels. Technically, it would also be unlawful for a child to own a piggy bank, as it would be an accumulation in excess of what was needed for personal use. Exporting of coins would also be illegal, so a dealer in the United States could not fulfill orders to a collector in Canada, or Great Britain, or any other foreign country.

    A group of 100 collectors and dealers formed the United Coin Collectors Alliance in June, with its purpose being to defeat the Bible bill. Chet Krause, publisher of Numismatic News, served as the group’s executive director of communications, and urged coin hobbyists to do whatever they could to prevent passage of the Bible bill. >>





    what this here sounds like is this Bible guy felt that money didn't belong to the individual. >>




    Also, with this one, take into account the context of the time. Silver coins had just stopped being made. Clad coins are now being made. Because of this switch, there was a real fear that circulating coinage would disappear for many years. That's a problem because the US Mint can only make so many coins in any given year. It cannot replace the whole population of circulating coins all at once. This 1965 legislation sounds like it was also born out more than just 'hate of coin collecting'.

    This new situation, apparently starting from Italy, sounds bad. I rarely write folks or sign petitions; maybe this should be one of those times.
  • swhuckswhuck Posts: 545 ✭✭✭
    ttt
    Sincerely,

    Stewart Huckaby
    mailto:[email protected]
    ------------------------------------------
    Heritage Auctions
    3500 Maple Avenue, 17th Floor
    Dallas, Texas 75219-3941
    Phone: 1-800-US-COINS, x1355
    Heritage Auctions
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 27,658 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Perhaps I'm slow or just missing something, but how does this affect all collectors?

    Someone who has no old Italian coins, is not sending any coins internationally or never even selling a coin, where is the impact?

    I'm not saying that I don't care about this subject, I just want to clarify the hyperbole. >>




    Just remember that old parable about life in Germany in the 1930's, which goes something like this:

    "They came for the Jews, but I did not care, because I was not a Jew.
    They came for the Gypsies, but I did not care, because I was not a Gypsy.
    They came for the mentally deficient, but I did not care, because I was not mentally deficient.
    They came for me, but there was nobody left to care......"

    If they can deprive you of your right to collect ancient Roman coins, they can deprive you of your right to collect anything. Or hold gold.

    Fight for your rights.

    TD
    Denying the facts does not make your wild guesses true.
  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,855 ✭✭✭
    ttt
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,647 ✭✭✭✭✭
    from the ANA:

    An Important Message Regarding Import Restrictions
    on Numismatic Objects from Italy

    Dear ANA members:


    An issue has recently come to light that could damage our hobby. The Untied States government is about to decide whether cultural property of Italian origin should be restricted from entry into the U.S. unless accompanied by Italian export permits. On May 6-7, the Cultural Property Advisory Committee (CPAC) will hold hearings regarding the 5-year renewal of an already existing agreement. Although ancient coins have been exempted twice before in these renewals, there is good reason to believe that Italy and members of the archaeological community will this time seek to add coins to the list of restricted items.

    The ANA is opposed to new import restrictions on numismatic objects, and wants its members’ opinions to be heard by the government. The Ancient Coin Collectors Guild (ACCG), an ANA member club, has a convenient way for collectors to contact the CPAC; access the “ACCG Fax Wizard” link below and follow the instructions to let the CPAC know how you feel.

    The "ACCG Fax Wizard" is quick and easy. Enter your basic information, select from a list of perspectives, click on "Sample Letters" and "Talking Points" to cut and paste the body of your letter, and send it directly to the CPAC. Don’t delay – the deadline to voice your opinion is April 22.

    This is an important issue for all numismatists, regardless of collecting interests. Thank you for your time and efforts.

    ACCG Fax Wizard and additional information

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 27,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ttt
    Denying the facts does not make your wild guesses true.


  • << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    The following excerpt is from here:
    bill that would have outlawed coin collecting


    On May 21, 1965, Sen. Alan Bible, D-Nevada, introduced a bill that would have outlawed coin collecting. The bill cited the export, selling or purchase of coins as activities that would be made illegal with the passage of this bill. “Bona fide collectors’ items” would be exempt from this.

    The Treasury Department would publish a list of coins they considered numismatically desirable, and thus, legal to hold. Collectors of modern coins, or those who saved one date and mintmark of each series, disliked this bill, as they would not be allowed to hold such common coins as Franklin or Kennedy half dollars, Roosevelt dimes, and nearly all Jefferson nickels. Technically, it would also be unlawful for a child to own a piggy bank, as it would be an accumulation in excess of what was needed for personal use. Exporting of coins would also be illegal, so a dealer in the United States could not fulfill orders to a collector in Canada, or Great Britain, or any other foreign country.

    A group of 100 collectors and dealers formed the United Coin Collectors Alliance in June, with its purpose being to defeat the Bible bill. Chet Krause, publisher of Numismatic News, served as the group’s executive director of communications, and urged coin hobbyists to do whatever they could to prevent passage of the Bible bill. >>



    what this here sounds like is this Bible guy felt that money didn't belong to the individual. >>



    Unfortunately, there are too many politicians in Washington that still feel this way. >>




    Yes, and isn't it odd, they too have that big "D" in front of their names.
  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,317 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow, wasn't aware of this craziness! Sent my fax using Rick's link, hopefully they will get through to someone that can make a difference.
  • swhuckswhuck Posts: 545 ✭✭✭
    ttt
    Sincerely,

    Stewart Huckaby
    mailto:[email protected]
    ------------------------------------------
    Heritage Auctions
    3500 Maple Avenue, 17th Floor
    Dallas, Texas 75219-3941
    Phone: 1-800-US-COINS, x1355
    Heritage Auctions
  • Thank you for making me aware of this disaster in the making. Does any other collector think that when one nation does this, others will not follow suit?

    There was an issue in the 30's with gold ownership in this nation was there not?

    I dont think we have anything to worry about right now, but down the line... Who knows. Id like to firmly believe I will be able to collect for many many happy years to come, but with news like this, in any part of the world, it deeply disturbs me and doesnt help me think I will have this hobby forever.

    Again, thank you for the post and information.

  • EdscoinEdscoin Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭
    One reason I don't want my coins Fingerprinted and registered!image
    ED
    .....................................................
  • SwampboySwampboy Posts: 11,659 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> None of us collect the kind of artifacts I think are at issue here >>





    OCG, did you read this?:

    "The U.S. State Department has announced a date of May 6-7 for Cultural Property Advisory Committee hearings on the request for renewal of the Memorandum of Understanding with Italy. In practical terms, the U.S. government is about to decide whether antiquities and other forms of cultural property that Italy claims as its heritage ought to be restricted from entry into the U.S. unless accompanied by Italian export permits. There is already such an agreement in place, but ancient coins have been exempted twice before in these renewal requests that cover a 5-year window. We have very good reason to believe that Italy and members of the archaeological community will this time seek to add coins to the list of restricted items."

    from the link cited on page 1. of this post.




  • << <i>We should consider how we would feel if things were reversed. We would be calling for blood if an antiques dealer sold a European art museum an original draft of the Declaration of Independence that was dug up in the middle of the night in a long forgotten cellar at Mt. Vernon. >>

    IMO, there is a big difference between "cultural artifacts" and "coins". Unlike the Declaration of Independence, coins are produced with the knowledge that they will end up being scattered far and wide while being used in commerce.
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