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Secure Plus...Is This Really What Collectors Want?
RichR
Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
Not saying it is or it isn't...but doesn't the possibility of resubmitting a coin for a possible upgrade hold quite a powerful allure for many people?
Might this "locked in stone fingerprinting" process possibly turn people on to using other TPG services in place of PCGS?
Just wondering...?
Might this "locked in stone fingerprinting" process possibly turn people on to using other TPG services in place of PCGS?
Just wondering...?
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<<David and Don have both said that the coin in for regrade could still upgrade if the coin was worthy of a higher grade. >>
So you don't think that having a coin previously identified in a database (as compared to be cracked out and being submitteed "fresh") doesn't bestow some level of bias going in?
<< <i>Not saying it is or it isn't...but doesn't the possibility of resubmitting a coin for a possible upgrade hold quite a powerful allure for many people?
Might this "locked in stone fingerprinting" process possibly turn people on to using other TPG services in place of PCGS?
Just wondering...? >>
Well, Secure Plus is only for high dollar coins - Extreme rarities and rarities. Like $10,000 to $100,000 coins. (I'm just being general - the numbers may be different) And it's only for XF45-MS70 coins (excluding MS60 and MS61)
So it won't even effect a good majority of coins, just really high end ones.
<< <i><<David and Don have both said that the coin in for regrade could still upgrade if the coin was worthy of a higher grade. >>
So you don't think that having a coin previously identified in a database (as compared to be cracked out and being submitteed "fresh") doesn't bestow some level of bias going in? >>
Well, maybe. But I guess "biases" come from all sorts of places in the human process of grading. And we have the bias of people knowing grades others have given the coins now in crossovers and prez reviews. At the unveiling of the Big One, Hall for example said that if a coin was curated nicely, it could certainly be considered for an upgrade, even if the coin had been previously graded and was known.
In any event, this ID process stands to handle the distorted population figures hereafter, and, of course, puts us in a position to handle the coin doctoring and couunterfeit problems that have been threatening to ruin the hobby. I'm not crazy about the "plus" business, but I sure like the ID capacity.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Camelot
<< <i><<David and Don have both said that the coin in for regrade could still upgrade if the coin was worthy of a higher grade. >>
So you don't think that having a coin previously identified in a database (as compared to be cracked out and being submitteed "fresh") doesn't bestow some level of bias going in? >>
There is always the possibility of there being a bias against a coin that has been scanned already, but that is not what you said or implied in your original post. Yes it gives a past grading history of the coin but that does not mean that it has no chance of an upgrade if it is warranted.
The Secure Plus system is here to protect people from doctored coins. Say for example a coin was graded 65. Someone buys it and cracks it out of the holder. They then proceed to doctor the coin by altering the surfaces and AT'ing the coin to hide imperfections. They then send it back in for grading hoping to get a 66 or 67 which could be thousands of dollars in price difference. PCGS recieves the coin and scans it, and they find out that the coin has been to them before. Now it looks nothing like what it did when they originally graded it a couple months ago. The coin has now been caught and it goes in to a genuine holder, and the person that sent the coin in is not going to profit from their work.
<< <i>It is not "locked in stone finger printing". It is a way to identify the coin and nothing more. David and Don have both said that the coin in for regrade could still upgrade if the coin was worthy of a higher grade. >>
Then I dont understand why in the video DH was talking about how it would stop someone sending in a coin 40 times until they got a upgrade. Maybe he was refering to something other than just the coin as it was
Also iirc he said something about how it would stop gradeflation.
Btw I did read where DW said that it would not stop a secure + regrade from upgrading. So maybe there was just some miscommunication somewhere.
<< <i>
<< <i>It is not "locked in stone finger printing". It is a way to identify the coin and nothing more. David and Don have both said that the coin in for regrade could still upgrade if the coin was worthy of a higher grade. >>
Then I dont understand why in the video DH was talking about how it would stop someone sending in a coin 40 times until they got a upgrade. Maybe he was refering to something other than just the coin as it was
Also iirc he said something about how it would stop gradeflation. >>
That's the way I interpreted it as well; in fact that was a selling point. I got the clear impression that Secure Plus was not only going to expose doctored coins but was also more likely to get the grade right the first time- and multiple submissions and gradeflation would be significantly lessened.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
You both are correct, but you can still send a coin in for an upgrade with the new system. Yes this system is supposed to be more accurate, but they could still mess up once in a while (everyone does, and no one is perfect), and if someone thinks that there was an error in the grading then you can still send it in. If a particular coin is truly worthy of a higher grade, why would the higher grade not be assigned even if it is just a "+".
<< <i>Placid and telephoto1,
You both are correct, but you can still send a coin in for an upgrade with the new system. Yes this system is supposed to be more accurate, but they could still mess up once in a while (everyone does, and no one is perfect), and if someone thinks that there was an error in the grading then you can still send it in. If a particular coin is truly worthy of a higher grade, why would the higher grade not be assigned even if it is just a "+". >>
Not to mention, they won't mind taking your money one more time whether it upgrades or not.
I have always been of the opinion that, if the coin is upgraded and they did indeed get it wrong the first time, then a full refund of the second fee is in order. I don't think I should have to pay twice for them to get it right once, especially under the pricier tiers like Walkthrough or Express.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>
<< <i>Placid and telephoto1,
You both are correct, but you can still send a coin in for an upgrade with the new system. Yes this system is supposed to be more accurate, but they could still mess up once in a while (everyone does, and no one is perfect), and if someone thinks that there was an error in the grading then you can still send it in. If a particular coin is truly worthy of a higher grade, why would the higher grade not be assigned even if it is just a "+". >>
Not to mention, they won't mind taking your money one more time whether it upgrades or not.
I have always been of the opinion that, if the coin is upgraded and they did indeed get it wrong the first time, then a full refund of the second fee is in order. I don't think I should have to pay twice for them to get it right once, especially under the pricier tiers like Walkthrough or Express. >>
If a coin up-grades from its previous grade, why is that higher grade the "right" grade? I don't see why they should reimburse a submitter just because they graded the same coin two different grades.
<< <i>
<< <i>It is not "locked in stone finger printing". It is a way to identify the coin and nothing more. David and Don have both said that the coin in for regrade could still upgrade if the coin was worthy of a higher grade. >>
Then I dont understand why in the video DH was talking about how it would stop someone sending in a coin 40 times until they got a upgrade. Maybe he was refering to something other than just the coin as it was
Also iirc he said something about how it would stop gradeflation.
Btw I did read where DW said that it would not stop a secure + regrade from upgrading. So maybe there was just some miscommunication somewhere. >>
Don's point about fingerprinting had more to do with coin doctoring. A richly toned coin submitted earlier as a white one would get caught.
Yes, he did talk about someone sending in a coin 40 times. I think he was saying that fingerprinting will discourage that, given that it will be easy to see the coin had been graded numerous times. Sure, you are still free to submit the same coin 40 times. But PCGS will be wise to it.
Lance.
<< <i>Secure Plus is only for high dollar coins - Extreme rarities and rarities. Like $10,000 to $100,000 coins. (I'm just being general - the numbers may be different) >>
Yes, that's how I see it, I agree...
<< <i>And it's only for XF45-MS70 coins (excluding MS60 and MS61) >>
I don't understand that. Why don't they care about the 60-61s? Why 45-58...63-70?
<< <i>
<< <i>And it's only for XF45-MS70 coins (excluding MS60 and MS61) >>
I don't understand that. Why don't they care about the 60-61s? Why 45-58...63-70? >>
David Hall said at the conference that most MS60 and 61 coins wouldn't ever warrant a "+" so they are excluded. Makes sense to me. The vast majority of 60-61 coins are baggy and dinged up pretty badly.
<< <i>Why are there so many that fail to read a) the Don Willis thread, and b) watch the video of the presentation. I continue to see repeated misconceptions regarding this process. And they have been addressed already...... READ. Cheers, RickO >>
Good point.
First of all, I like the idea that for some collectors putting together a set of coins in MS65 may be cost prohibitive. But, putting the same set together in MS64+, which is just slightly below in quality, may be a lot more affordable. A much bigger bang for your buck.
Secondly, I like the idea that conscientious collectors who have put together collections of coins that are highend for the grade have an opportunity to realize that value instead of what usually happens where they get offers "at bid" and someone else makes the money. I see this as a way of rewarding those collectors - why shouldn't they be the ones that make the money?
Thirdly, I like the idea that a collector can have their collection registered. If anything every happens to it their chances of recovery will be a lot better than they used to be (which was near zero). Plus I expect to soon be announcing discounted insurance rates on Secure Plus coins.
Lastly, I like the idea of utilizing new technology to thwart coin doctoring. Won't everyone (except the doctors) benefit from this?
One last thing - having your coin graded through PCGS Secure Plus does not mean that the coin's grade is forever locked in stone. Our number one objective at PCGS is to grade the coins right. If we see a Secure Plus coin that we believe is undergraded it will receive the proper grade. But if we see one that has been doctored it's going into a body bag. The idea, and beauty, of Secure Plus is that now we can give the Verifier (the graders will continue to grade blind) all the information we have about an individual coin. The more information we have, the better job we can do - on all fronts.
At the end of the day, what we have done is given everyone a choice. You can choose the regular service or Secure Plus. It's up to you.
edited for spelling
I almost threw him out.
<< <i>Yesterday a collector came in for Roosevelt dimes. He seriously wanted the "worn out" Roosies for his Whitman. Can you believe the nerve of people collecting such dreck ?
I almost threw him out. >>
Personally, if the guy wants worn down roosies that is his choice. If it were me I'd just smile and ask what ones he is looking for. It might not be much of a profit in my pocket, but he is a customer and if he comes back then he is a repeat ustomer. I would not think about shunning him away or kicking him out of my store unless he was acting in a way that would warrant the action. So that being said, did he do something wrong?
<< <i>
<< <i>Yesterday a collector came in for Roosevelt dimes. He seriously wanted the "worn out" Roosies for his Whitman. Can you believe the nerve of people collecting such dreck ?
I almost threw him out. >>
Personally, if the guy wants worn down roosies that is his choice. If it were me I'd just smile and ask what ones he is looking for. It might not be much of a profit in my pocket, but he is a customer and if he comes back then he is a repeat ustomer. I would not think about shunning him away or kicking him out of my store unless he was acting in a way that would warrant the action. So that being said, did he do something wrong? >>
No, he did nothing wrong and I like the way you're thinking. It coincides with how I honestly treat my customers. The guy comes in every week and we give each other a hard time every week. I was teasing about wanting to throw him out and the "dreck".
That reference is an inside joke for the lady at Legend.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Yesterday a collector came in for Roosevelt dimes. He seriously wanted the "worn out" Roosies for his Whitman. Can you believe the nerve of people collecting such dreck ?
I almost threw him out. >>
Personally, if the guy wants worn down roosies that is his choice. If it were me I'd just smile and ask what ones he is looking for. It might not be much of a profit in my pocket, but he is a customer and if he comes back then he is a repeat ustomer. I would not think about shunning him away or kicking him out of my store unless he was acting in a way that would warrant the action. So that being said, did he do something wrong? >>
No, he did nothing wrong and I like the way you're thinking. It coincides with how I honestly treat my customers. The guy comes in every week and we give each other a hard time every week. I was teasing about wanting to throw him out and the "dreck".
That reference is an inside joke for the lady at Legend. >>
Gotcha.
<< <i>Why are there so many that fail to read a) the Don Willis thread, and b) watch the video of the presentation. I continue to see repeated misconceptions regarding this process. And they have been addressed already...... READ. Cheers, RickO >>
I've got a better idea. Given you evidently have the time on your hands to be so well-read, why don't those of us who obviously don't ask the questions, you find the answers? That'd sure save us a lot of time...
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.