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The Fugio - Legal Tender in the United States today?
MidLifeCrisis
Posts: 10,519 ✭✭✭✭✭
I posted this in my colonial thread but I think it deserves it's own thread.
The Coinage Act of 1965 provided that "All coins and currencies of the United States...regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties, and dues."
See Sec. 102 below:
As for the Fugio, according to Louis Jordan and the University of Notre Dame Department of Special Collections, "...the Continental Congress of the Confederation passed a resolution on April 21, 1787, for the contract coining of a national copper cent. About two and a half months later they agreed on a design. A resolution of July 6th stated the penny obverse would have the sun and a sundial with the legend "FUGIO" (I fly)...The Fugio cent was to weigh 157.5 grains, equal to the English halfpence and the Massachusetts coppers (which had been approved by the Massachusetts legislature nine days earlier on June 27th). Also, like the Massachusetts coppers, they were denominated as cents, that is a decimal coin based on one hundred to the Spanish milled dollar."
The Congress of the Confederation or the United States in Congress Assembled was the governing body of the United States of America from March 1, 1781, to March 4, 1789. The Congress of the Confederation was succeeded by the United States Congress.
If my facts are accurate, I think this makes a pretty strong case that Fugios are legal tender in the US today.
The Coinage Act of 1965 provided that "All coins and currencies of the United States...regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties, and dues."
See Sec. 102 below:
As for the Fugio, according to Louis Jordan and the University of Notre Dame Department of Special Collections, "...the Continental Congress of the Confederation passed a resolution on April 21, 1787, for the contract coining of a national copper cent. About two and a half months later they agreed on a design. A resolution of July 6th stated the penny obverse would have the sun and a sundial with the legend "FUGIO" (I fly)...The Fugio cent was to weigh 157.5 grains, equal to the English halfpence and the Massachusetts coppers (which had been approved by the Massachusetts legislature nine days earlier on June 27th). Also, like the Massachusetts coppers, they were denominated as cents, that is a decimal coin based on one hundred to the Spanish milled dollar."
The Congress of the Confederation or the United States in Congress Assembled was the governing body of the United States of America from March 1, 1781, to March 4, 1789. The Congress of the Confederation was succeeded by the United States Congress.
If my facts are accurate, I think this makes a pretty strong case that Fugios are legal tender in the US today.
0
Comments
Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
<< <i>I'd be thrilled to give anyone face value for a Fugio!
Yeah. Where's Fletcher? I'd happily give him ten cents for his collection...hell, I'd throw in a Jefferson nickel as a bonus!
<< <i>THe 1965 Act wording of this section has since been simplified. >>
How so?
<<From the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access
[www.gpoaccess.gov]
[Laws in effe
ct as of January 3, 2007]
[CITE: 31USC5103]
[Page 280-281]
TITLE 31--MONEY AND FINANCE
SUBTITLE IV--MONEY
CHAPTER 51--COINS AND CURRENCY
SUBCHAPTER I--MONETARY SYSTEM
Sec. 5103. Legal tender
United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes
and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are
legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign
gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts.
(Pub. L. 97-258, Sept. 13, 1982, 96 Stat. 980; Pub. L. 97-452,
Sec. 1(19), Jan. 12, 1983, 96 Stat. 2477.)
Historical and Revision Notes
1982 Act
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revised Section Source (U.S. Code) Source (Statutes at Large)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5103................................. 31:392. July 23, 1965, Pub. L. 89-81, Sec. 102,
79 Stat. 255.
31:456. R.S. Sec. 3584.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The words ``All . . . regardless of when coined or issued'' are
omitted as unnecessary because of the restatement. The word ``debts'' is
substituted for ``debts, public and private'' to eliminate unnecessary
words. The words ``public charges, taxes, duties, and dues'' are omitted
as included in ``debts''.
1983 Act
This restores to 31:5103 the reference to public charges, taxes, and
dues because they are not considered to be debts. See, Hagar v.
Reclamation District No. 108, 111 U.S. 701, 706 (1884).
Amendments
1983--Pub. L. 97-452 inserted ``, public charges, taxes, and dues''
after ``all debts''.
[[Page 281]]
Effective Date of 1983 Amendment
Amendment effective Sept. 13, 1982, see section 2(i) of Pub. L. 97-
452, set out as a note under section 3331 of this title.>>
It was not as simplified as I thought, but still simplified somewhat.
Note one simplification had to be replaced in 1983 due to the 1884 court decision.
Too much about coin doctors, ANA, PNG, Laura, etc....for one day.
If you'd rather not discuss Fugios or other colonials...how about debating whether or not a type set of US dollars should include Pillar Dollars or Trade Dollars?
Or what is the cheapest set to complete in MS65?
Or start a thread about an interesting collection or collector you know about, past or present.
Or anything!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>The Constitution was adopted on September 17, 1787 and I would think that that is the day the United States became a legal country, or a legal entity by its own definition. >>
So on July 4, 1776 we were just wishful thinking?
<< <i>I don't think Confederation period money is legal tender. The Constitution was adopted on September 17, 1787 and I would think that that is the day the United States became a legal country, or a legal entity by its own definition. Since the Fugios were authorized in April, it does not have the authority of the United States as adopted in the Constitution. >>
Didn't the United States exist under the Articles of Confederation? No matter what, you can spend them in my store anytime you want---not that I have a real store.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Well, yes, or more properly - Hopeful thinking! We were losing the war at the time and might have easily lost it all by the Spring of 1777. (had Washington not totally annihilated the Hessians at Trenton, we would have)
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Just a legal issue, not a historical collectible issue.
<< <i>So on July 4, 1776 we were just wishful thinking?
Well, yes, or more properly - Hopeful thinking! We were losing the war at the time and might have easily lost it all by the Spring of 1777. >>
If we had lost the war, would history record that we attempted to secede from England without success and without a break in our time as a British colony? Or would history record that from 04 July 1776 until the day we lost the war we were a country independent of England?
(Note - legal separation of the Thirteen Colonies from Great Britain actually occurred on July 2, 1776, when the Second Continental Congress voted to approve a resolution of independence that had been proposed in June by Richard Henry Lee of Virginia.)
<< <i>I'd be thrilled to give anyone face value for a Fugio!
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>The Declaration of Independence says nothing about our ability to coin money, collect taxes and regulate commerce. >>
Fair enough...but that just tells me that we didn't include everything we needed to run a country in one comprehensive document.
We're good...but hey, nobody's perfect.
If I owe you $10, and I offer you $10 of monopoly money, and you choose to accept it, then that is solved.
If I owe you $10, and I offer you 20 rolls of lincoln pennies, if you don't accept it, you can't then take me to court and say that I didn't pay my debt, because the lincolns are legal tender for all debts, public and private.
So the only question is, if someone offers a fugio cent, and they don't want to accept it, are they legally bound to have to. Which is really a pointless question because nobody sane would ever test it. (Although, didn't someone a few years ago spend a 1909-S VDB in NYC and then go on the news about it to try to get people to start searching their pocket change?)
-Fred
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
<< <i>I will set up a lemonade stand in front of my house with a sign that says 10 cents(or Fugios). I would be willng to be your test case to see if I accept them. I promise to serve really good lemonade.
If recent news reports are accurate, you'd get shut down by the health department as a public menace before you got an answer to your test case.
<< <i>Although, didn't someone a few years ago spend a 1909-S VDB in NYC and then go on the news about it to try to get people to start searching their pocket change? >>
I think that may have been part of a "money drop" to help promote the ANA convention a few years back. They put a 1914-D Lincoln and at least one other valuable coin in circulation too.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>
<< <i>Although, didn't someone a few years ago spend a 1909-S VDB in NYC and then go on the news about it to try to get people to start searching their pocket change? >>
I think that may have been part of a "money drop" to help promote the ANA convention a few years back. They put a 1914-D Lincoln and at least one other valuable coin in circulation too. >>
Yup. Put a few hundred dollars worth of coins in circulation and get thousands of dollars worth of publicity. Great way to market your show and increase interest in the hobby.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Positive BST as a seller: Namvet69, Lordmarcovan, Bigjpst, Soldi, mustanggt, CoinHoader, moursund, SufinxHi, al410, JWP
<< <i>just to throw a curve into things,if I walk to the corner and purchase $10 of whatever...I attempt to pay in pennies and the cashier will not accept the payment...is the cashier within his legal rights? (of course these are all fugios) >>
A business is free to accept (or not) any sort of coin/note as they choose.
<< <i>.I attempt to pay in pennies and the cashier will not accept the payment...is the cashier within his legal rights? >>
I believe so, yes. However, if you owed the cashier money from a previous transaction, and were paying in pennies, then I believe the cashier could turn you away but couldn't take you to court for refusing to pay your debt, since you tried to pay.
-Fred
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
I think this is still a gray area. The law saying cents are legal tender up to 25 cents only has never been specifically repealed.l
Yes, no debt existes. You are attempting to make a purchase and the cashier can be as pigheaded as he wants to be.
I posted this in my colonial thread but I think it deserves it's own thread. The Coinage Act of 1965 provided that "All coins and currencies of the United States...regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties, and dues."
As for the Fugio, according to Louis Jordan and the University of Notre Dame Department of Special Collections, "...the Continental Congress of the Confederation passed a resolution on April 21, 1787, for the contract coining of a national copper cent. About two and a half months later they agreed on a design. A resolution of July 6th stated the penny obverse would have the sun and a sundial with the legend "FUGIO" (I fly)...The Fugio cent was to weigh 157.5 grains, equal to the English halfpence and the Massachusetts coppers (which had been approved by the Massachusetts legislature nine days earlier on June 27th). Also, like the Massachusetts coppers, they were denominated as cents, that is a decimal coin based on one hundred to the Spanish milled dollar."
The Congress of the Confederation or the United States in Congress Assembled was the governing body of the United States of America from March 1, 1781, to March 4, 1789. The Congress of the Confederation was succeeded by the United States Congress. If my facts are accurate, I think this makes a pretty strong case that Fugios are legal tender in the US today.
Some general points:
1) It is my understanding that the laws passed under the Confederation were in full force after March 1789
unless they were in conflict with the 1787 Constitution or were changed by some new legislation under the
Federal Congress.
2) The Fugio coinage was not legal tender even when issued. It was not until April 1864 that cent coins were
made legal tender to a limited amount. There is no denomination appearing on the Fugio coins although they
meet the requirements of the 1786 law stating that 100 coins equal 2.25 avoirdupois pounds of copper.
3) It would therefore seem that under the 1864 act the Fugio coins were in fact legal tender.
Denga
<< <i>I think this is still a gray area. The law saying cents are legal tender up to 25 cents only has never been specifically repealed.l >>
From Snopes:
"Up until the late 19th century, pennies and nickels weren't legal tender at all. The Coinage Acts of 1873 and 1879 made them legal tender for debts up to 25 cents only, while the other fractional coins (dimes, quarters, and half dollars) were legal tender for amounts up to $10. This remained the law until the Coinage Act of 1965 specified that all U.S. coins are legal tender in any amount."
I don't see anything about "in any amount" in the text of the law as shown back at the beginning of this thread.
<< <i>I don't see anything about "in any amount" in the text of the law as shown back at the beginning of this thread. >>
You're right- it's not there.
From U.S. CODE, TITLE 31 > SUBTITLE IV > CHAPTER 51 > SUBCHAPTER I > § 5103:
"United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts."
I think, however, due to the fact there are no limits specified, "in any amount" can be implied.
If someone wanted to spend a Fugio, yes I would have accepted it too. Might have even given them change back.
Ron
<< <i>As Walter Breen pointed out, "No one is likely to make a test case." >>
no kidding on that one.
JT
I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
<< <i>I'll take all you want to get rid of and send you a check. Maybe include a tip.
JT >>
I appreciate the bump...but to you and others who posted similar comments, I say "Ugh...groan...
As for the type set question, the U.S. Trade Dollar is clearly a part of a type set, the Pillar and Bust Spanish Milled dollars are interesting additions, but not official IMO because they were not coined by the U.S. Government. They had legal tender status for a long time, partly for convenience and necessity, but they were not official U.S. coins
<< <i>If the Fugio Cent is legal tender, then the Continental Currency should be legal tender, and clearly it is not. The Coinage Act of 1965 applied to coins that were made under the Constitution passed in 1789. Anything before that would be off limits. >>
Au contraire mon amie.
Again I call on Louis Jordan and the University of Notre Dame Department of Special Collections: "Unfortunately little is known about the important and captivating coin called the Continental Dollar. The denomination of the coin is unknown, but Newman has surmised the value to be a dollar. The first four emissions of Continental paper currency from May 10, 1775, through May 6, 1776, included a dollar bill, but the one dollar denomination was missing from the next six emissions and does not reappear until the last regular emission of Continental paper currency from January 14, 1779. It is thought that this Continental coin was meant to replace the paper dollar in these emissions. Also, the coin was made to be about the same size as the Spanish milled dollar and, like the Spanish coin, had an edge design. However who authorized or minted the coins is unknown.'
'Interestingly, there are no records of this coin in the actions of the Continental Congress, although other coinage concerns were recorded. On April 19, 1776 the Congress appointed a committee to determine the value of several foreign coins in relation to the Spanish dollar and on February 20, 1777 a congressional treasury committee recommended a mint be established, but nothing further was done on this matter. To date there is no evidence the Continental Currency coins were authorized or issued by the Continental Congress. Indeed, Robert Morris, the Superintendant of Finance during the Confederation period, appears not to have known of the Continental Dollars as he called his 1783 Nova Constellation patterns the first that were, "struck as an American Coin." (Morris, Diary for April 2, 1783)."
So it's a bit like comparing red apples to green apples...they're both apples, but that's where the similarity to the Fugio really ends.
Plus, I don't know of any reference in the Coinage Act of 1965 that states that it applied to coins that were made under the Constitution passed in 1789. In fact, as I posted in the OP, the Coinage Act states "All coins and currencies of the United States...regardless of when coined or issued..."
Would a Fugio ever actually be used as legal tender today? Highly unlikely. So this thread will not change US finance and coinage as we know it. But I thought it was a fun way to discuss US history and colonial era coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Is the Continental Currency a coin or a privately issued token? Is there any documentation that this "coin" was issued by any government authority?
No documentation has been found as to their origin. There is little doubt, however, that they
were intended to be silver dollars. The most likely scenario is that they (the silver specimens,
that is) were struck by a private entity in an effort to obtain a government contract to coin money.
Several researchers, such as Don Taxay, made an effort to unravel the mystery of these pieces,
but were unable to do so.
It may also be surmised that the non-silver pieces were simply souvenirs struck by the owners
of the dies.
There has never been any legal tender status attached to these pieces.
Denga
<< <i>PerryHall August 16, 2010
Is the Continental Currency a coin or a privately issued token? Is there any documentation that this "coin" was issued by any government authority?
No documentation has been found as to their origin. There is little doubt, however, that they
were intended to be silver dollars. The most likely scenario is that they (the silver specimens,
that is) were struck by a private entity in an effort to obtain a government contract to coin money.
Several researchers, such as Don Taxay, made an effort to unravel the mystery of these pieces,
but were unable to do so.
It may also be surmised that the non-silver pieces were simply souvenirs struck by the owners
of the dies.
There has never been any legal tender status attached to these pieces.
Denga >>
So, they're not really comparable to the Fugio cents which are well documented as being struck by the authority of the United States by a contractor working for the U.S. government.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>Au contraire mon amie. >>
I was addressing the issue of Continental Currency which the Federal Government dishonored following the Revolutionary War. When I was kid collector in the 1960s you could still buy Continental Currency notes fro less than their face value because they were not recognized as money by the Federal Government. Their value came from their worth as collectors’ items. If these notes had been honored there would have been not debate about the Federal Government honoring the Revolutionary War debts in the early days after the ratification of the Constitution.
<< <i>
<< <i>Au contraire mon amie. >>
I was addressing the issue of Continental Currency which the Federal Government dishonored following the Revolutionary War. When I was kid collector in the 1960s you could still buy Continental Currency notes fro less than their face value because they were not recognized as money by the Federal Government. Their value came from their worth as collectors’ items. If these notes had been honored there would have been not debate about the Federal Government honoring the Revolutionary War debts in the early days after the ratification of the Constitution. >>
Aha! Well that's different.
Of course I had immediately thought of the Continental Currency "Dollar" of 1776.
<< <i>The Coinage Act of 1965 provided that "All coins and currencies of the United States...regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties, and dues." >>
Are US Commonwealth / Territorial coins of the Philippines legal tender under this act? If so, is 1 US peso = 1 US dollar and 1 US centavo = 1 US cent?