I have a coin question for you whiz bang experts***********************

Bear

In the Heritage auction, Lot 982 is a PCGS MS-63 1842-O

Liberty Seated Half MS-63 with a green bean on it. Now the

coin looks to be a sure shot upgrade to MS-64. My question is,

how could PCGS and CAC both seem to miss out on the grade. The

price at present about 5400 with the juice. No telling what tomorrow

will bring price wise. I was very tempted to bid ,but the price rose too

fast too far. What is the consensus on this coin?

Hopefully, someone can transfer the pictures of the coin being discussed.

dbldie55

You graded it MS64 based on a Heritage Image?

Bear

I did not bid because If It was as good as the picture

looked, I decided that CAC would have given it a gold bean.

notwilight

Based on your description I'd say there is a good change it is a strong upgrade candidate--your description of the bidding, not the coin. --Jerry

Gemini

Did it have honey toning?

TahoeDale

Bear,

You mentioned an 1842-0 seated half that looks pretty nice for a 63. I took a good look, and the coin is pq for grade, but it is a 43-0. PC has graded 13 in 63, and my best guess for the grade is due to something we cannot see in the image, maybe a luster problem, or flatness of surface appearance.
However, based on the bidding so far, someone has probably viewed it and considers it a shot upgrade, where PC guides indicate $4500. As far as CAC approving it( and not indicating a certain upgrade with gold), I agree. A shot is not enough for gold.

RedHerring

Linkified

As was noted, somebody thinks it's a lock 64. Gold CAC stickers are so rare, it's no surprise to see it green beaned only.

Bear

Sooooo, what we have ,is that it is but it isn't

and it even could or could not. A true ,uncertain

perhaps as well as a definite possible?

jhdfla

Well, that leaves me out 'cause I'm no expert. However, I'll give you my take on the coin, FWIW. First, if I was going to drop anywhere near 5K on this coin, and had a serious interest in it, I'd contact an agent to view the coin and give you his (her) take on it. But I'm sure you already know that. Second, the coin has been dipped and as such is not as desirable to me, even though PCGS has no qualms about grading dipped coins, nor CAC about stickering them. The coin is scarce but not particularly rare in 63, however, that changes in grades higher than that, in fact Heritage has not sold this coin in a grade higher that 63 according to their archives. Interesting to note that the highest graded '43-O is an NGC 66 in YO1's set, and after that only a couple 63's (NGC registry), there is a 65 in the PCGS registry (Malibu) and it is stickered (the only 65 CAC has stickered so far). Is it an upgrade? Apparently someone thinks so. But as tight as grading is these days I would be hesitant to call any coin a lock for a higher numerical grade if re-submitted, and the only chance it would have is if it was cracked out and submitted raw, I seriously doubt it would come back higher if submitted in the holder. Just my two cents...

John

Bear

John, your opinion is the course I finally took. Since I am not
a crack out artist, it was not worth the risk, at least to me. I did
have a pro look at the coin and they thought, that though it was dipped
in the past it was a real firecracker for a 63.It was even strong for a
63, but there was just not enough assurance it would upgrade. Sometimes
you can extend a bit and take a chance, but when the price shoots past a 64
then it often is best to leave it alone and console oneself with the money you
still have.

Elcontador

Bear, I've seen plenty of dumb bids on auction coins over the years. Just because a coin has a strong bid, in itself, to me, doesn't mean squat. Many people don't know how to grade, and many others don't care. Some people put very strong bids on a coin because he / she has a (usually unfounded) view that the coin will upgrade.

Auction companies love these people. My latest favorite was a coin that sold for a $6K hammer (a 50% premium) for the coin in that particular grade. Someone thought It was a shot coin in its current (MS 66) holder. The problem is that the high bidder overlooked a noticeable hairline scratch on its obverse, which precluded the coin from being choice for the grade.

I'm with John and your last post on this.

sinin1

wow, the thought of it - wheres the luster? I guess in hand viewing good idea unless you routinely shell out for $5K coins

jhdfla

<< <i>John, your opinion is the course I finally took. Since I am not
a crack out artist, it was not worth the risk, at least to me. I did
have a pro look at the coin and they thought, that though it was dipped
in the past it was a real firecracker for a 63.It was even strong for a
63, but there was just not enough assurance it would upgrade. Sometimes
you can extend a bit and take a chance, but when the price shoots past a 64
then it often is best to leave it alone and console oneself with the money you
still have. >>



Bear, keep your powder dry, there's always something else around the corner (even if you have to wait a while). Selective buying is easier to preach than actually do sometimes, especially of late. There seems to be a real dearth of nice original seated material at auction lately, a point which I've had with several people over the last month or two.

I'll tell you a little story which I think I posted on here in another thread earlier this year with regards to nice coins bringing way over their their perceived value going just by the grade on the slab. There were a lot of coins I looked at in this years' Jan FUN auction, but one in particular was lot #887, an 1889 Seated Quarter in PC65 that had gorgeous two sided toning. I already have this date in 65, and it's not a particularly scarce date in 65, but I really liked this coin and after returning to the room just prior to the sale, I saw the coin had jumped WAY beyond what I was going to bid on the coin, ultimately sold for ~$3700. w/ juice which of course is way beyond what an 1889 quarter in 65 should go for. I graded the coin a shot 66, but this coin went for beyond 66 money, almost 67 money. Was the new owner able to get it in a 66 or 67 slab? I have no idea. But the coin was that nice to me, and apparently others thought so as well, in fact so nice I almost pulled the trigger at that insane level, but didn't, I guess reason prevailed. If the coin didn't upgrade, you are left with a 65 coin you paid almost 67 money for, and there's no assurance that when the time comes to sell you can get back what you gave for it. I still have second thoughts about this coin even now, the brain says I did the right thing... but jeez, I loved that coin...

Edited to add, the Heritage pics do not do justice to that coin either BTW. Had incredible luster under the toning.

Bear

Having been buried in a coin once or twice ,I certainly know
what it feels like ,to be under water for a lifetime ,when the
euphoria wears off.