Question for those that buy silver bars.
PerryHall
Posts: 46,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
I've noticed some brands or styles within the same brand have serial numbers while others don't have serial numbers. Does it matter to you if a silver bar has a serial number or not? Assume we are talking about bars from known legitimate refiners. For example, I have several Silvertowne 10 oz bars and some have serial numbers and others don't. Do you care and does it affect your decision to buy that bar?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
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<< <i>I've noticed some brands or styles within the same brand have serial numbers while others don't have serial numbers. Does it matter to you if a silver bar has a serial number or not? Assume we are talking about bars from known legitimate refiners. For example, I have several Silvertowne 10 oz bars and some have serial numbers and others don't. Do you care and does it affect your decision to buy that bar? >>
That depends. The main advantage to serial numbers on silver bars of well-respected refiners (e.g. Engelhard, Johnson Matthey) is that if you record them, and your silver is stolen, you've got a better chance of it being recovered. If you have, say, a single 10 ounce Silvertowne bar stolen from you with no serial number, and a pawn shop 2 miles away gets someone bringing one in the next day, there's about zero chance it will get tracked back to you, even if the pawn shop is concerned and contacts the police. If it has a serial number, and the police are involved, you've got proof that it is yours.
If you have a wide enough variety of silver, it may be possible to say with near certainty that the entire collection was yours (if fenced at the same time). But if the thief was reasonably smart, they would sell it in bits and pieces (e.g. all Silvertowne bars at the same time, then all Engelhards somewhere else, etc.).
So there definitely is an advantage to having the serial numbers, if you record them. Whether you should pay much of a premium for that is up to you.
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<< <i>I have several dozen 5oz bars with an area for the serial number, but it is blank. I wonder what would be the ramifications of adding my own numbering system to these bars via metal number punches? >>
If people suspected that the numbering was added, they might be concerned that the hollows that form the numbers were "cut out" of the bar, lowering the weight, rather than punched into the bar and merely displacing metal.
TD
<< <i>Also, it is my understanding that when making a contribution to an IRAs, you can only use silver that has a serial number... >>
Actually, serial numbers are not required for IRAs -- see About.Ag's IRA page for all the details on IRAs.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have several dozen 5oz bars with an area for the serial number, but it is blank. I wonder what would be the ramifications of adding my own numbering system to these bars via metal number punches? >>
If people suspected that the numbering was added, they might be concerned that the hollows that form the numbers were "cut out" of the bar, lowering the weight, rather than punched into the bar and merely displacing metal.
TD >>
It would be easy enough to weigh them to verify their weights so this shouldn't be an issue.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I have several dozen 5oz bars with an area for the serial number, but it is blank. I wonder what would be the ramifications of adding my own numbering system to these bars via metal number punches? >>
At the very least, some people would refuse to buy, because they would suspect that it was a stolen bar. If they could tell the serial number wasn't legitimate for some reason, fake/stolen are the two thoughts that come to mind.
I haven't seen any silver bars that I knew had fake serial numbers, although I've seen one with the serial number scratched off and another with the serial number obscured with dots (like someone tried banging a nail on it repeatedly in different places). Who would do such a thing unless it was stolen (or other laws were broken, such as buying it with counterfeit money)? But stamping your own serial numbers, if done in an obvious way (e.g. 0001, 0002, 0003, etc. and not C640238, C224923, etc.) probably wouldn't affect the price any more than, say, major toning or other marks on the bar (although nice-looking silver trumps other types of silver, silver is silver).
At a show last year, a dealer [who will remain anon.] offered me several 10 oz JM silver bars ...
ALL of them had the numbers scratched off..... The price was VERY good ... like dirt cheap...
and my decision.........
NO FLAMING WAY !!
1.... I am not a fence.
2.... Would the next guy think that they were legit?
3..... For the record.... I not only did not buy the scratched bars.....
but I also did not buy his non-scratched bars... nor do I ever deal with this guy.
Nuf-said.
********************
Silver is the mortar that binds the bricks of loyalty.
<< <i>although I've seen one with the serial number scratched off
At a show last year, a dealer [who will remain anon.] offered me several 10 oz JM silver bars ...
ALL of them had the numbers scratched off..... The price was VERY good ... like dirt cheap...
and my decision.........
NO FLAMING WAY !!
1.... I am not a fence.
2.... Would the next guy think that they were legit?
3..... For the record.... I not only did not buy the scratched bars.....
but I also did not buy his non-scratched bars... nor do I ever deal with this guy.
Nuf-said. >>
Yup. Definitely sounds like stolen bars. Also, the bars are now damaged. Probably best to send them to a refiner for remanufacture.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I have several dozen 5oz bars with an area for the serial number, but it is blank. I wonder what would be the ramifications of adding my own numbering system to these bars via metal number punches? >>
If people suspected that the numbering was added, they might be concerned that the hollows that form the numbers were "cut out" of the bar, lowering the weight, rather than punched into the bar and merely displacing metal.
TD >>
It would be easy enough to weigh them to verify their weights so this shouldn't be an issue. >>
That would work if I were buying them to throw into the melting pot, but could I sell them retail?
<< <i>Does it matter to you if a silver bar has a serial number or not? >>
One other thing -- it gives you a bit more leverage if you buy at an auction site, and get scammed.
For example, if you get an empty box delivered to you, the seller could claim that the box had the bar in it when he sent it. But if the bar has a serial number that you know, and he then later gets caught with another auction with the same bar, or gets caught with the bar in his possession, it's all over for him. With no serial number, he just smiles and says 'Oh, that's a different one.'
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
--Severian the Lame
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
My OPM:
--Severian the Lame
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>The reason I started this thread was that I bought the 100 oz Ohio Precious Metal bar that was offered on the BST thread in this forum and I later noticed in the pic that it lacked a serial number. I'm sure it real silver and at 9995 fine it's probably more pure than J-M or Engelhard bars. Just curious about collector psychology here. The OPM bar that I bought is an neat old poured bar and it's made from recycled silver as evidenced by the recycle symbol on the bar. Who says buying silver bullion can't be fun and interesting?
How can the OPM bar be an "old" bar? They haven't been around very long.
I have no problem with them. We have sold hundreds of their hundreds, but they have only been around since the product crunch in the Fall of 2008.
TD
<< <i>
How can the OPM bar be an "old" bar? They haven't been around very long.
I have no problem with them. We have sold hundreds of their hundreds, but they have only been around since the product crunch in the Fall of 2008.
TD >>
From their website...
Founded over 35 years ago, Ohio Precious Metals (OPM) continues to provide our customers with outstanding service at reasonable prices. Located in America's Heartland, OPM is committed to fast and cost-effective service to many different industries and their varied needs. We are proud of our efficient processes for refining gold, silver, platinum, and palladium. OPM receives materials from the jewelry, pawn, coin, photographic, electronics, secondary refining/collecting, and banking industries.
http://www.opm-llc.com/
But I do believe you're correct in that they are likely new bars. They're just a little crude looking
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>
<< <i>The reason I started this thread was that I bought the 100 oz Ohio Precious Metal bar that was offered on the BST thread in this forum and I later noticed in the pic that it lacked a serial number. I'm sure it real silver and at 9995 fine it's probably more pure than J-M or Engelhard bars. Just curious about collector psychology here. The OPM bar that I bought is an neat old poured bar and it's made from recycled silver as evidenced by the recycle symbol on the bar. Who says buying silver bullion can't be fun and interesting?
How can the OPM bar be an "old" bar? They haven't been around very long.
I have no problem with them. We have sold hundreds of their hundreds, but they have only been around since the product crunch in the Fall of 2008.
TD >>
The design of the bar that i bought is different that the bar Weiss is showing so they must have gone through two designs.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>How can the OPM bar be an "old" bar? They haven't been around very long.
I have no problem with them. We have sold hundreds of their hundreds, but they have only been around since the product crunch in the Fall of 2008.
TD >>
I said old because the bar appears to be poured in a mold unlike the newer bars from the other refiners which appear to be struck and less crude.
Tom---When buying silver bars, what kind of premium does your company pay for the bars with serial numbers or do you guys even care about such things?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Normal buy price is 50 cents an ounce under spot, open to negotiation up or down depending on what it is and what our position happens to be that day. Really crude bars bring less.
<< <i>We don't care about serial numbers.
Normal buy price is 50 cents an ounce under spot, open to negotiation up or down depending on what it is and what our position happens to be that day. Really crude bars bring less. >>
What do you consider "really crude"? Do you mean damaged? Is the OPM bar that I just bought considered crude since it's a cast bar rather than a struck bar?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire