Selling PSA cards on eBay -- Beware

sportlots

Ok.. I have a good topic for discussion.

I recently put up a PSA 7 card for auction. In the auction, I said that I would not accept returns for PSA graded cards. My opinion is there should be no refunds required since they are getting an unbiased, professionally graded card.

Well, the buyer filed a dispute saying the card shouldn't have been graded a "7" because it had dings in the card. I responded to the eBay dispute basically that the item was graded by the leading trading card authenticator/grader in the industry and that their judgement should be good enough to accurately describe the auction and that the unbiased/unprofessional opinion of the buyer shouldn't play a role in their decision.

Well, within 24 hours, eBay had come back with their decision and ruled in favor of the buyer. I couldn't believe it! Why would they allow me to select "No Returns" (as long as the item is accurately described) if they are going to rule in the buyers favor anyway?

I would like to know if anyone else has run into this before and also get others comments regarding this. Personally, I was blown away at this decision, but would like to hear others comments regarding this.

Thanks!

al032184

That is a pretty stupid excuse, but..
If the buyer pays for return shipping, and the card comes back as it was, I think sellers should accept returns, it's only fair.

EagleEyeKid

I don't know why there is even a "no returns accepted" function on the listing. You can argue all you want that you don't accept returns, but as long as they pay with paypal and you accept paypal, you're screwed. Buyers can complain about scratches on the holder, grades, etc.

OAKESY25

out the buyer so I can block please

bking

Please tell me there is more to the story. I don't like how this reads AT ALL.

sportlots

Here's exactly what the buyer said in the dispute:
"Details provided by the buyer:
The item is not as described
The buyer has tried contacting you
The buyer paid on Mar 10, 2010
The buyer contacted you through eBay Messages
You have responded to the buyer
You aren't working with the buyer to solve the problem
The item is damaged
Additional information:
"He said he would not take the item back because it was graded a PSA 7 but the card had 2 bad corners if I took it out and got it graded again it would probably come back a PSA 6 because I used to send in thousands of cards when I had my card shop and I know theres times the cards dont receive the right grade."
The buyer wanted:
A full refund"

And here was my response:
"This item is simply described with the PSA Description. There's nothing else to describe about the item. PSA (Professional Sports Authenticator) is the leading authenticator/grading company in the industry. The buyer is disputing the grade provided by PSA and is asking you to agree with his potentially biased opinion of the grade vs the unbiased opinion by PSA. Typically with auctions, I provide a money back guarantee. However, in the case of PSA graded cards, I do not offer money back guarantee’s because the grade of the card is not a biased opinion from me, but an unbiased opinion of the leading authority in the industry. I ask that you side with me, the seller on this issue. I do not wish to provide a refund, go through the additional work of re-listing the auction, reshipping the card to someone else, make an additional trip to the post office & risk a lower final price for the auction. Thank you for your time."

eBay ruled in favor of the buyer. My complaint is not with the eBay buyer (although I don't agree with him), my complaint is with eBay and that they would rule in the buyers favor on this. I would think PSA would be concerned over this decision. What does this say about the confidence in their ability to grade cards when the opinion of the grade by the buyer holds more weight than the opinion of PSA? Why does eBay even offer the "No refunds" option when in situations like this they aren't going to rule in the seller's favor?

RipublicaninMass

please post buyer ID, sorry this happened

BigRed7

<< <i>
eBay ruled in favor of the buyer. My complaint is not with the eBay buyer (although I don't agree with him), my complaint is with eBay and that they would rule in the buyers favor on this. I would think PSA would be concerned over this decision. What does this say about the confidence in their ability to grade cards when the opinion of the grade by the buyer holds more weight than the opinion of PSA? Why does eBay even offer the "No refunds" option when in situations like this they aren't going to rule in the seller's favor? >>



After this unbelievable by Ebay, it does make you wonder about "No Refunds". Too bad you're not a lawyer, I'd love to sue eBay and take their money this time.

scotgreb

As a buyer and seller of hundreds of PSA graded cards over the past several years, I have to agree with the buyer in this case (given the info at hand).

Not all PSA 7s are created equal.

I expect that any one of us could pull a PSA 7 that we felt was overgraded -- and probably get consensus of that opinion by the members of this board.

Maybe it is/was "buyer's remorse" or maybe the card is/was truly overgraded (or was further damaged / worn / aged while in the holder). It's a shame and an injustice to you if it was the former.

Lastly, IMO, I believe (and not to get on my high horse here) that the seller (especially a savvy seller as you seem to be) has an obligation to comment on the relative fairness of the grade. Not to say that you misled -- and maybe not relevant to this situation -- it sounds like you feel that the grade was appropriate.

Scott

:edited to clarify

sportlots

Hey Scott. I don't sell a lot of cards on eBay. I was just unloading my lower graded cards when I upgraded for my Set Registry. However, when I do sell PSA graded cards, I make it a point to never add any comments on my opinion of the grade. How many times do you see an auction on eBay where the seller actually says the card does not deserve the grade? I personally don't like it when a seller states that the card should be graded higher. It may be the seller's opinion, but quite frankly it doesnt make any difference anyway. Do you really think the potential buyer really cares what you (the seller) thinks?

One of the other cards I sold in this group of cards, the buyer left me feedback and he said that he may regrade the card because he thinks it should have been graded higher. That's great! But I'm not going to state that in the auction either.

One of the big advantages of PSA is for selling cards in the internet age. This unbiased/professional grade is suppose to take the doubt out of buying sight unseen (images don't do much good and can even be doctored). Once eBay takes this stance, they are now saying that there is doubt and reduces the value of getting your cards graded in the first place.

I'm not a big seller on eBay, I wanted to unload all of my PSA 7's and PSA 8's from this set at one time now that I upgraded them to 9's. Now in a couple weeks I'm going to get this card back, will have to relist it all by itself, hopefully get the same price for the card, repackage the card and make another trip to the post office. All for $30.00. That's exactly what I wanted to avoid.

Garabaldi

I think the buyer has to assume as much responsibility as the seller. There is a risk to purchase on the internet and the buyer should ask many questions before biding. Ask for closer scans of the card.

otwcards

I think properly a properly worded response would've had an effect on the outcome.

As eBay acknowledges TPG's PSA, SGC and BGS, it typically allows sales of such cards to be sold "as is" with no return privileges. Allowing "return privileges" for TPG cards opens Pandora's Box with regard to buyers being allowed to purchase "on approval" and return any cards they feel can't be bumped or "improved." Definitely a slippery slope...

MULLINS5

You can return anything you buy on eBay with almost any excuse regardless of if the listing has no returns.

scotgreb

I agree with you that tons of cards get hyped as "undergraded" -- "possible upgrade" -- "resubmit candidate", etc.

Most of us can see through that pretty easily.

My point is this (and not saying it is the case here) -- if a card is clearly overgraded, and it is difficult / impossible to surmise from the scan, then it is the seller's obligation to disclose that -- especially if they don't want a return. It's certainly fair and logical to claim that PSA's opinion is unbiased and expert in nature -- but it's still just an opinion.

Clearly you feel that the card was fairly graded, which is why you're bummed that ebay has sided with the buyer -- that's totally understandable. But the buyer is equally bummed that he received what he believes to be a PSA 5/6 in a PSA 7 holder. In today's ebay environment, rules are clearly (sometimes unfairly) scewed to the buyer. IMO

:edited for grammer

storm888

The recent EBAY "complaint process" often throws out the
terms recited in the PayPal "User Agreement."

The correct defense is ALWAYS to use the EBAY/PayPal docs
against the claim.

"SNAD" is a legal term as it applies to the PP UA.

PSA is an EBAY recommended grader.

It is not possible for a properly listed PSA card to be "SNAD."


13.7 SNAD Definition

An item is Significantly Not as Described if it is materially different than what the seller described in the item listing. Here are some examples:

You received a completely different item. Example: You purchased a book and received a DVD or an empty box.

The condition of the item was misrepresented. Example: The listing said "new" and the item was used.

The item was advertised as authentic but is not authentic.

The item is missing major parts or features which were not disclosed in the listing.

You purchased three items from a seller but only received two.

The item was damaged during shipment.


An item is not Significantly Not as Described if it is materially similar to the seller’s item listing description. Here are some examples:

The defect in the item was correctly described by the seller.

The item was properly described but you didn't want it after you received it.

The item was properly described but did not meet your expectations.

The item has minor scratches and was listed as used condition.

////////////////////

First, if EBAY made the SNAD-decision - instead of PayPal - appeal to EBAY.

Then, appeal the wrongful decision to PayPal; it may be reversed.

If it is not reversed, a complaint to the San Jose BBB - naming both EBAY/PayPal -
should get the job done in the form of a "courtesy refund."

///////////////////////////////////


EBAY considers ALL "buyers" to be "customers of EBAY."

Buyers are hard for EBAY to get/keep. Sellers are TOTALLY expendable.

MANY "buyers" want EBAY to be an "approval service" that disregards the
best interests of ALL sellers, in every category.

....................................

PSA is a company that EBAY recommends/approves in EBAY policy recitations.


Trading cards

Grade your trading cards with:

Beckett Grading Services (BGS)

Global Authority

Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA)

Sportcard Guaranty (SGC)


EBAY doc


.............

If the card was rattling around in a loose fitting slab, it might
have gotten hurt in transit, but it is unlikely.

VERY likely just buyer's remorse, or he found one he liked
better for less money.

............

scotgreb

Storm,

As usual, you know way more about this than anyone else, and are a huge asset to the board -- I learn something from every one of your posts.

Do you believe that ebay determined that the PSA card was improperly listed -or- whoever made the judgment overlooked / disregarded the rule?

Just curious.

MULLINS5

sportlots...

joined in '06 and this is your 6th post...

I'm calling BS on this thread.

are you affiliated with sportlots.com?

OAKESY25

are you affiliated with Allen who won't out his buyer either?

wtf are with these people?

storm888

"...Lastly, IMO, I believe (and not to get on my high horse here) that the seller.......has an obligation to comment on the relative fairness of the grade...."

///////////////////////////

No such obligation exists; not in equity, not in law, not in practice.

Commenting on "professional grades" is an invitation to a SNAD-claim
from a sharpshooter OR any buyer's-remorse joker.

The WHOLE idea of TPGs is to get the seller's opinion out of the mix.

..................................

Sharpshooting "buyers" routinely "buy" cards and file BOGUS SNAD-claims
after they examine the card and determine that it will not bump.

..........

Sellers who are willing to pay EBAY to run an "approval service" should
do so. Most graded-card sellers are not in that group.

........................

bking

<< <i>sportlots...

joined in '06 and this is your 6th post...

I'm calling BS on this thread.

are you affiliated with sportlots.com? >>



Wha?????? Are you suggesting he might be trying to drive people to use that site instead of Ebay????? Surely you jest....

MULLINS5

lol

twiley

Are you ALLEN????

I will ask again

Are you ALLEN????

sportlots

Ok.. Since there are now doubts about my credibility and that this whole thing is a fake just because I'm not a frequent user of this forum or that I'm affiliated with someone called Allen?? I will provide the exact details. I didn't want to "out" the buyer because I'm more upset with eBay than the buyer.

Here is a link to the auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200446167415&ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT

Item: 200446167415

Buyer ID: btsrbt


And here is a full transcript of the case:


"We've made important changes to the resolution process.Learn more







Case status: Open
Most recent activity
Mar 14, 2010 at 4:37 PM You have contacted eBay Customer Support.
Please note that this case is still ongoing.

Your message to eBay Customer Support:
"I am at a total loss at this decision. eBay says when listing an item it is ok to not allow returns as long as the item is not mis-represented. This item is NOT mis-represented. By making this decision, you are basically taking the buyers subjective opinion of the condition of this trading card over the professional and unbiased opinion of PSA (Professional Sports Authenticators). I'm sorry, but I need a better explaination of your decision. I will be going to contact our PSA representive to inform them of this decision. Sellers have thousands of PSA graded items up for sale at any one time and I'm sure they would like to know that eBay puts more weight on the condition of a trading card on the buyer than PSA. The main reason why sellers pay $20+ a card to get them professionally graded is so that they can get an unbiased, professionally graded card that can't (or shouldn't) be able to be disputed by a non-professional, biased grader like a buyer or seller of the item. I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense to me. Why even offer the "No Returns" policy if eBay's position is to rule in the favor of the buyer even if the item is accurately described? You have set a bad precidence here. There are many sellers who sell PSA graded items and state that refunds are not allowed for these items. With this decision, you are basically saying that the grade the PSA determines is not an accurate description of the grade of the card and doesn't fully represent the description of the card. I appreciate and await your response. Thank You"




Please wait for eBay Customer Support to respond to you. We'll get back to you within 48 hours.

Previous activity
Mar 14, 2010 at 4:05 PM eBay Customer Support made a final decision and asked the buyer to return the item to you for a full refund.

Final decision:
This case was decided in the buyer's favor.
eBay Customer Support comments:
"We've asked the buyer to upload tracking and ship the item to you by Mar 21, 2010. Once the item is returned to you, we will issue a refund to the buyer or charge your reimbursement payment method on file."
We passed this return information to the buyer:
(My Address information removed)




Mar 13, 2010 at 8:24 PM You have escalated the case to eBay Customer Support.

Your message to eBay Customer Support:
"This item is simply described as the following: "1972-73 Topps #1 Wilt Chamberlain PSA 7". There's nothing else to describe about the item. PSA (Professional Sports Authenticator) is the leading authenticator/grading company in the industry. The buyer is disputing the grade provided by PSA and is asking you to agree with his potentially biased opinion of the grade vs the unbiased opinion by PSA. Typically with auctions, I provide a money back guarantee. However, in the case of PSA graded cards, I do not offer money back guarantee’s because the grade of the card is not a biased opinion from me, but an unbiased opinion of the leading authority in the industry. I ask that you side with me, the seller on this issue. I do not wish to provide a refund, go through the additional work of re-listing the auction, reshipping the card to someone else, make an additional trip to the post office & risk a lower final price for the auction. Thank you for your time."




Mar 13, 2010 at 7:52 PM The buyer opened a case: Item doesn't match the description

Details provided by the buyer:
The item is not as described
The buyer has tried contacting you
The buyer paid on Mar 10, 2010
The buyer contacted you through eBay Messages
You have responded to the buyer
You aren't working with the buyer to solve the problem
The item is damaged
Additional information:
"He said he would not take the item back because it was graded a PSA 7 but the card had 2 bad corners if I took it out and got it graded again it would probably come back a PSA 6 because I used to send in thousands of cards when I had my card shop and I know theres times the cards dont receive the right grade."
The buyer wanted:
A full refund"


I hope this clears any doubt about the reality of this information I posted. I feel this is an important discussion and want others to be aware that the "No Returns" option that many people use for PSA graded options is not of any value. If anyone has any other doubts that this is NOT real, let me know what else I can provide.

Thank You

MULLINS5

<< <i>Are you ALLEN????

I will ask again

Are you ALLEN???? >>



WOW

OAKESY25

linkage

MULLINS5

<< <i>Ok.. I have a good topic for discussion.

I recently put up a PSA 7 card for auction. In the auction, I said that I would not accept returns for PSA graded cards. My opinion is there should be no refunds required since they are getting an unbiased, professionally graded card.

Well, the buyer filed a dispute saying the card shouldn't have been graded a "7" because it had dings in the card. I responded to the eBay dispute basically that the item was graded by the leading trading card authenticator/grader in the industry and that their judgement should be good enough to accurately describe the auction and that the unbiased/unprofessional opinion of the buyer shouldn't play a role in their decision.

Well, within 24 hours, eBay had come back with their decision and ruled in favor of the buyer. I couldn't believe it! Why would they allow me to select "No Returns" (as long as the item is accurately described) if they are going to rule in the buyers favor anyway?

I would like to know if anyone else has run into this before and also get others comments regarding this. Personally, I was blown away at this decision, but would like to hear others comments regarding this.

Thanks! >>



archived. i'm suing.

storm888

"...Do you believe that ebay determined that the PSA card was improperly listed -or- whoever made the judgment overlooked / disregarded the rule?..."

///////////////////////////////

The CS-monkeys are instructed to approve all SNAD-claims,
unless the seller exhibits the ability to defeat the claim.

Sellers who recite the PP UA definitions and note that EBAY
"recommends" certain TPGs, will almost always prevail in the
first round; and, will always win on appeal OR via the BBB in
San Jose.

PP has a little gang devoted to solving - making go away -
San Jose BBB complaints.


..................

The instant claim seems to have been filed via EBAY and not
thru PP.

PP is much more aware of what "SNAD" means legally than
the silly little boys/girls that handle claims filed thru EBAY.

OAKESY25

looks like a 7 to me... I am blocking that mutha

MULLINS5

OK So this probably actually happened, why come here to post? I mean, 6 posts in exactly 4 years?

sportlots

Why not come here? It's a PSA graded card. The most likely place to find people who sell a lot of PSA graded items on eBay would be here correct? I wanted to get the opinions of people in this forum.. Isn't that logical?? Where else would you go to have this kind of discussion??

otwcards

<< <i>OK So this probably actually happened, why come here to post? I mean, 6 posts in exactly 4 years? >>



Nice retraction on the SPAMMER post. The proper thing to do would to be to post an apology after jumping to such a conclusion and publicly outing the person that you knew nothing about. At least I stick to facts and when I am wrong, I apologize instead of trying to cover my tracks...

sportlots

I have also just contacted Paypal. The problem is it may be too late. If the buyer submits and mails the item back to me by tomorrow with delivery confirmation, at that point, I may as well just accept the decision because even if they later decide in my favor.. I'm going to have to reship, make another trip to the post office, etc... what I was trying to avoid.

otwcards

Over a $32 transaction, I would just accept the return, get my FV Fees returned and relist... It would be the easiest route with the least aggravation.

MULLINS5

<< <i>

<< <i>OK So this probably actually happened, why come here to post? I mean, 6 posts in exactly 4 years? >>



Nice retraction on the SPAMMER post. The proper thing to do would to be to post an apology after jumping to such a conclusion and publicly outing the person that you knew nothing about. At least I stick to facts and when I am wrong, I apologize instead of trying to cover my tracks... >>



...yeah...ok.

storm888

Block 'em.


FB.rcd by


FB.left by


....................................

Total trash.

MULLINS5

if sportlots is affiliated with sportlots.com then it was spam.

sportlots

Yea I know.. only $32, but it's the concept that has me upset. Guess I'll take a step back and let it go. Just wanted to post my experience and see what others had to say.

storm888

<< <i>Over a $32 transaction, I would just accept the return, get my FV Fees returned and relist... It would be the easiest route with the least aggravation. >>



////////////////////////////////////

If the SNAD-claim was decided against the seller, the seller
cannot recoup his FVFs.

storm888

"...Yea I know.. only $32, but it's the concept that has me upset. Guess I'll take a step back and let it go...."

//////////////////////////

Just as 99% of shafted sellers do.

EBAY loves it.

OAKESY25

it is sportlots.com but not sure how it could be spam since he has nothing for sale?

there would be easier ways to spam his site other then this.

twiley

my apologies since he wasnt giving the buyer up I had a feeling it might be him.

MULLINS5

<< <i>it is sportlots.com but not sure how it could be spam since he has nothing for sale?

there would be easier ways to spam his site other then this. >>



His title is: "Selling PSA cards on eBay -- Beware"

Not: "'__' eBay buyer -- Beware"

Seems like sportlots doesn't want cards listed on eBay? IDK. Six posts in four years...IDK. My opinion is spam.

KatsCards

<< <i>if sportlots is affiliated with sportlots.com then it was spam. >>



Funny, the OP never mentioned his site, you did. And so what if he only posted a half dozen times in a few years. No reason to run a guy off for asking a question on these boards.

otwcards

<< <i>Funny, the OP never mentioned his site, you did. And so what if he only posted a half dozen times in a few years. No reason to run a guy off for asking a question on these boards. >>



Shush! You don't even have 400 posts and you've been here for nearly 2 years. Are you SPAMMING Katscards.com?

grote15

Why stick the buyer with a card he doesn't want? If he returns it, just refund and relist and move on.

grote15

In the meantime, we will all anxiously await your next contribution to the board four years from now, or until the next time a buyer had the audacity to want to return an item he bought from you so you can start another thread about it..

WinPitcher

<< <i>Over a $32 transaction, I would just accept the return, get my FV Fees returned and relist... It would be the easiest route with the least aggravation >>





Bingo.

lol so much distrust around here, poor guy comes here looking for advice and gets pounded.

No wonder he only has 6 posts in 4 years.


Maybe he just reads when he is here?


Ok back to the subject at hand, if it was me I'd have said from the beginning, fine, you don't like the card?

Mail it back and once I receive it I'll refund your purchase price. That would be my only email with this person.

I'd then block him. That way PP or ebay are not involved and I could get the 76 cents back that it cost me. (eyeroll)





Steve

TNP777

what Steve said - it may be the principle of the thing, but in the end why fuss over a $32 transaction?

bking

<< <i>what Steve said - it may be the principle of the thing, but in the end why fuss over a $32 transaction? >>



I guess that's why I'd be upset - at the end of the day, if you can't sell a PSA graded card without buyer turmoil, what the hell CAN you sell easily??

That being said:

a) Steve is right, just refund the money and hope it's an isolated instance
b) My apologies for piling on. It smelled like so many other heartache stories and I should have laid out and just watched.

WinPitcher

Actually Scott said it, I was quoting him.


Steve

bking

<< <i>Actually Scott said it, I was quoting him.


Steve >>



I suck at footnotes......