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My Newp 1964 SMS Kennedy
giorgio11
Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
Well I got the star of my Kennedy half collection on Sunday: a 1964 SMS Kennedy half, MS67 PCGS!
I think it's one of the rarest coins made in the second half of the 20th century. I wonder if anyone has any "concrete information" about them ... I completely respect my collector friends who feel they should not be part of the "Complete Variety" set--but that's the only Kennedy set they are in. I humbly disagree--focus on "Complete" rather than "Variety"--and I'm not going to get sucked into a debate on that point.
Regardless of what you call it, it is an extremely rare and desirable coin, the rarest of the five 1964 SMS denominations. As a collector at heart, I am completely thrilled to obtain one at last, and it has moved me up to #3 on the "Complete Complete" Kennedy set. Thanks and best regards to the several dedicated Kennedy collectors/friends who made it possible. (It's kinda like the Oscars, ain't it?)
Best Regards, George
I think it's one of the rarest coins made in the second half of the 20th century. I wonder if anyone has any "concrete information" about them ... I completely respect my collector friends who feel they should not be part of the "Complete Variety" set--but that's the only Kennedy set they are in. I humbly disagree--focus on "Complete" rather than "Variety"--and I'm not going to get sucked into a debate on that point.
Regardless of what you call it, it is an extremely rare and desirable coin, the rarest of the five 1964 SMS denominations. As a collector at heart, I am completely thrilled to obtain one at last, and it has moved me up to #3 on the "Complete Complete" Kennedy set. Thanks and best regards to the several dedicated Kennedy collectors/friends who made it possible. (It's kinda like the Oscars, ain't it?)
Best Regards, George
VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
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Comments
Congrats on the '64 SMS Kennedy, and in MS67? Wow!
I love my '65 SMS Kennedy. It's one of my favorite coins in my collection. Nothing compared to your '64, but I still love it.
Mine is designated with "SP" for Specimen, which I guess is something relatively new that PCGS is doing.
I just realized that it's a SP66, not SP65. Now I gotta redo my picture. DOH!!!
Take care,
Dwayne
<< <i>Congratulations George. Very nice coin Dwayne. Cheers, RickO >>
Thank you as well. My Baby ...
I'd love it if some documentation about them ever surfaced.
<< <i>Well I got the star of my Kennedy half collection on Sunday: a 1964 SMS Kennedy half, MS67 PCGS! >>
I think that deserves a ..YOU Suck....!!!!!
...Oh..!!!....btw....
thanks in advance. Won't respond will be in the air today.
bob
<< <i>I'd like to know how to tell the difference between a '64ms and '64sp. Anyway to tell?
thanks in advance. Won't respond will be in the air today.
bob >>
Oh, yeah, easy. All of the (few) 1964 SMS Kennedys were struck from a single die pair. I have seen at least three different ones in person. Also--and I think you read it here first, folks, they all (that I have seen) show a small obv. tine of metal hanging downward from the bottom of the crossbar of the 4 (right of the upright) and a diagonal die line extending upward into the left obverse field from the left side of the 1, about one-third of the way down from the top of that digit.
They show the really sharp strike and detail/squared rims of a proof, but they have really heavy, haphazard, sometimes crisscrossing die polishing lines on both sides. It almost looks like they were produced in a hurry (clandestine coinage?). The other denominations also show heavy die striations from die polishing. The ones I have seen, however, show very little reflectivity, much less than the 1965-67 SMS coins and certainly much less than a true proof 1964. (They are 90% silver, not 40%.) You can find some examples in the Heritage archives for lots more info.
<< <i>
<< <i>Well I got the star of my Kennedy half collection on Sunday: a 1964 SMS Kennedy half, MS67 PCGS! >>
I think that deserves a ..YOU Suck....!!!!!
...Oh..!!!....btw....
I think I deserve it too! Thanks for the jealousy
what evidence do you base this statement on aside from pure speculation?? to my knowledge the coins were struck as presentation sets of some sort which means equal numbers of each denomination were struck. regardless, they weren't struck in any sort of large numbers, went into hiding for many years, surface infrequently and are tracked mainly by graded-pop numbers which are wholly inacurate due to re-submitting.
What would I look for in comparing one of these to a regular unc Kennedy? Are they any more reflective than a regular unc?
Got Pics?
I knew it would happen.
is this it? looks nice
Link 1
Link 2
Link 3
- Bob -
"Central Valley" Roosevelts
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
<< <i>it is an extremely rare and desirable coin, the rarest of the five 1964 SMS denominations.
what evidence do you base this statement on aside from pure speculation?? to my knowledge the coins were struck as presentation sets of some sort which means equal numbers of each denomination were struck. regardless, they weren't struck in any sort of large numbers, went into hiding for many years, surface infrequently and are tracked mainly by graded-pop numbers which are wholly inacurate due to re-submitting. >>
Well, there is a lot more speculation than fact known, so forgive me if I sometimes indulge--but maybe not this time. It's my understanding too that they were issued in sets, but that does not necessarily mean that the survival rates are the same, or that no individual (unpackaged) pieces were issued. I don't know. But a logical, if not necessarily valid, assumption is that the various denominations would all be submitted to the grading services in equal numbers. Take a look at PCGS population figures for each ... I know, they are inflated, but they are what we have. Remember you have to use different PCGS numbers for FS Jeffersons and RB Lincolns. The total certified at PCGS that I could find are cent 22 (RD and RB); nickel 18 (FS and not); dime 22; quarter 28; and half dollar 12. NGC has certified 11 cents, 5 nickels, 6 Kennedys (all as 1964 SP coins), and 1 each of the Roosevelt dime and Washington quarter. That makes 33 cents, 23 nickels, 23 dimes, 29 quarters, and 18 halves between PCGS and NGC. I also base it on my own experience and talking to a lot of other collectors who seek the 1964 SMS coins.
<< <i>it is an extremely rare and desirable coin, the rarest of the five 1964 SMS denominations.
what evidence do you base this statement on aside from pure speculation?? to my knowledge the coins were struck as presentation sets of some sort which means equal numbers of each denomination were struck. regardless, they weren't struck in any sort of large numbers, went into hiding for many years, surface infrequently and are tracked mainly by graded-pop numbers which are wholly inacurate due to re-submitting. >>
It's based upon common conceptions Al, with the keyword being "desireable".
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Is there any chance that some of these made it into a circulation bag of 90% halves? Maybe some of the "rejects"?
What would I look for in comparing one of these to a regular unc Kennedy? Are they any more reflective than a regular unc?
Got Pics?
I would look for a coin that has proof characteristics in strike with lots of die polish lines. I don't think any of the current examples have what could be considered proof reflectivity.
The name is LEE!
It's always been in my top five "want-to-own-someday" too list (along with a true, PCGS MS67 1970-D Kennedy).
I remember in the early 1990's the one and only business strike MS69 (either NGC or PCGS, I can't recall- although I think it was NGC) 1964 Kennedy that really ended up in a PCGS MS68 Specimen holder shortly afterward. I saw it at the Long Beach coin show back then and was intrigued.
I believe either CoinWorld or Numismatic News had a front page write-up on that coin way back then.
The cents and nickels are cool looking too but it is the Kennedy with its unusual appearance that stands out from these 1964 SMS coins.
I'm sure yours is a keeper thus making any future ones appearing on the market even that much more difficult to purchase.
I hope you will have an opportunity soon to post photos.
peacockcoins
<< <i>Congratulations, George. I don't think that anyone has any truly concrete information on the 1964 SMS coins. They are quite mysterious and intriguing, having shown up in one or more Stack's sales many years ago, with little fanfare at the time. I got to see several of them then, having been a grader at NGC at the time a number of them were first submitted.
I'd love it if some documentation about them ever surfaced. >>
I second that emotion! Thanks Mark.
<< <i>I have always heard the estimates are 30-50 of each denomination
is this it? looks nice
No that looks like a different coin.
http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/CoinDetail.aspx?s=6844&redir=t
Sorry I do have some photos but couldn't get the right file size for the site to accept them. I also have it listed on my website under NOT FOR SALE.
<< <i>your link doesn't work unless you are a member >>
True, but it could be added as PCGS CoinFacts members Link.
I don't think that this link requires membership and its a good example of the quality of photo's available on PCGS CoinFacts.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>your link doesn't work unless you are a member >>
True, but it could be added as PCGS CoinFacts members Link.
I don't think that this link requires membership and its a good example of the quality of photo's available on PCGS CoinFacts. >>
Thanks Lee, that's the one!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>I realize this is a pretty darn scarce coin and for those who are hunting one this is a major score. Therefore, congratulations are in order. However, is it possible that this surface finish on these pieces might make them fall within the realm of being patterns? I don't mean pattern for design, but pattern for finish since they might have been experimental pieces made in the process of determining how the SMS sets would be made. >>
Thanks, Tom, for the congratulations. I don't necessarily disagree with you at all. It certainly seems likely that they were made as experimental pieces. And "experimental in finish" is an apt description, to my view. Although why they took such care with the strike, and were so careless about all the heavy die polishing, remains a mystery. I looked in the Judd book the other day, half expecting to find them there--so little is known about them!
In terms of their clandestine/unexplained production, they seem to most closely resemble the 1913 Liberty nickels or the 1894-S dimes. (Oh, I can hear the howls already. Yes, I realize the differences. But think about it.) In terms of strike, they resemble the 1964 proofs for sharpness, and they have the same 90% silver metal composition (as far as I know). But the finish to me is quite different from the 1965-67 SMS coins, which can sometimes resemble true proofs. If they are patterns (in finish at least), that would make them similar to 1856 Flying Eagles, which are (large-mintage) patterns but avidly collected as part of the regular set.
i recall that at one time these coins were almost all owned by a single individual and though they were known to exist they didn't really start to surface and become widely known until the early 1990's. estimates range to about 20 complete sets which originally existed. pop numbers are difficult to interpret at best and unreliable at worst.
also, i've never heard of them showing up in Proof Sets and whenever i see them at a show it's usually a complete set.
<< <i>Congratulations George on a wonderful coin.
It's always been in my top five "want-to-own-someday" too list (along with a true, PCGS MS67 1970-D Kennedy).
I remember in the early 1990's the one and only business strike MS69 (either NGC or PCGS, I can't recall- although I think it was NGC) 1964 Kennedy that really ended up in a PCGS MS68 Specimen holder shortly afterward. I saw it at the Long Beach coin show back then and was intrigued.
I believe either CoinWorld or Numismatic News had a front page write-up on that coin way back then.
The cents and nickels are cool looking too but it is the Kennedy with its unusual appearance that stands out from these 1964 SMS coins.
I'm sure yours is a keeper thus making any future ones appearing on the market even that much more difficult to purchase.
I hope you will have an opportunity soon to post photos. >>
The first coins surfaced in Stack's auctions in 1993-94 as far as I know. There is one SP69 at NGC; the highest at PCGS are a few MS68/SP68s. Yes. I agree that the Kennedys are the standout of the crowd, although all of the coins I have seen--close to a dozen, counting all denominations--have interesting and unusual surface textures. Thank you!
<< <i>George, if you don't mind saying, what did you have to pay to obtain your specimen? >>
Sorry, but I do mind.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'd like to know how to tell the difference between a '64ms and '64sp. Anyway to tell?
thanks in advance. Won't respond will be in the air today.
bob >>
Oh, yeah, easy. All of the (few) 1964 SMS Kennedys were struck from a single die pair. I have seen at least three different ones in person. Also--and I think you read it here first, folks, they all (that I have seen) show a small obv. tine of metal hanging downward from the bottom of the crossbar of the 4 (right of the upright) and a diagonal die line extending upward into the left obverse field from the left side of the 1, about one-third of the way down from the top of that digit.
They show the really sharp strike and detail/squared rims of a proof, but they have really heavy, haphazard, sometimes crisscrossing die polishing lines on both sides. It almost looks like they were produced in a hurry (clandestine coinage?). The other denominations also show heavy die striations from die polishing. The ones I have seen, however, show very little reflectivity, much less than the 1965-67 SMS coins and certainly much less than a true proof 1964. (They are 90% silver, not 40%.) You can find some examples in the Heritage archives for lots more info. >>
Thanks for posting this, and congratulations!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'd like to know how to tell the difference between a '64ms and '64sp. Anyway to tell?
thanks in advance. Won't respond will be in the air today.
bob >>
Oh, yeah, easy. All of the (few) 1964 SMS Kennedys were struck from a single die pair. I have seen at least three different ones in person. Also--and I think you read it here first, folks, they all (that I have seen) show a small obv. tine of metal hanging downward from the bottom of the crossbar of the 4 (right of the upright) and a diagonal die line extending upward into the left obverse field from the left side of the 1, about one-third of the way down from the top of that digit.
They show the really sharp strike and detail/squared rims of a proof, but they have really heavy, haphazard, sometimes crisscrossing die polishing lines on both sides. It almost looks like they were produced in a hurry (clandestine coinage?). The other denominations also show heavy die striations from die polishing. The ones I have seen, however, show very little reflectivity, much less than the 1965-67 SMS coins and certainly much less than a true proof 1964. (They are 90% silver, not 40%.) You can find some examples in the Heritage archives for lots more info. >>
Thanks for posting this, and congratulations! >>
My pleasure Bob, thanks for asking! I really hope some other examples surface based on this! They are quite distinctive. I also have noticed a couple of good rev. die markers: really prominent die polishing lines between (H)A and L(F) on all, and my coin has a straight, heavy die polishing line that runs from the bottom right tip of small middle serif in (O)F, downward at a 30-degree angle to the outside of the A(MERICA). I bet all of them have this, but I just noticed it. Take care!
that's why it's called "Experimental" finish.
one overlooked point is that the world at the Mint during this era was clouded in secrecy for a variety of reasons. this issue was a predecessor of the 1965-1967 SMS coins which were an exercise in trying to confound the collecting community who had been tried/convicted/sentenced of causing the circulating coin crisis in America. i've wondered why the forum researches among us have never been able to uncover records which will tell more about these coins. they are doubtless there, somewhere.........................
remember who we're dealing with, our Uncle who has a bad habit of concealing the information that he doesn't want anyone to have, yet can't resist recording for posterity.
<< <i>From what I understand, putting aside what keets says about presentation sets, I thought some of these popped up in actual proof sets at random? Anybody care to discuss? >>
I have not heard of that. And if it did occur, my guess is that the large majority of owners wouldn't notice it.
Anyone else out there? What do you own, and in what grades? I'd be particularly interested to hear from anyone who bought the 1964 SMS "sets" directly from the original Stack's sales beginning in 1993 (or mid-1992?). Was there any original packaging, and if so what did it look like? Apparently there ended up being maybe 20 sets--not all of which contained 1964 SMS Kennedys, so I've been told by some folks close to that deal.
???
I have held this set and one other. They are sequential in certification but are labeled as MSxx SMS.
There were from my past readings of this special set only 15-20 known to exist as complete sets.
The one on ebay I feel is well worth the 35K considering.
<< <i>Well there is one set up on Ebay right now that is for sale at 35K. It is a complete set that was submitted to PCGS a few moons ago.
I have held this set and one other. They are sequential in certification but are labeled as MSxx SMS.
There were from my past readings of this special set only 15-20 known to exist as complete sets.
The one on ebay I feel is well worth the 35K considering. >>
I can't find it ... could you send the link or item number? Thanks.
<< <i>
<< <i>Well there is one set up on Ebay right now that is for sale at 35K. It is a complete set that was submitted to PCGS a few moons ago.
I have held this set and one other. They are sequential in certification but are labeled as MSxx SMS.
There were from my past readings of this special set only 15-20 known to exist as complete sets.
The one on ebay I feel is well worth the 35K considering. >>
I can't find it ... could you send the link or item number? Thanks. >>
Sure here ya go..
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120524297587&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Well there is one set up on Ebay right now that is for sale at 35K. It is a complete set that was submitted to PCGS a few moons ago.
I have held this set and one other. They are sequential in certification but are labeled as MSxx SMS.
There were from my past readings of this special set only 15-20 known to exist as complete sets.
The one on ebay I feel is well worth the 35K considering. >>
I can't find it ... could you send the link or item number? Thanks. >>
Sure here ya go..
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120524297587&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT >>
Link
The name is LEE!
I'm still looking for a1964 SMS Jefferson Nickel.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>Stacks never mentioned Adams. 15-20 cents, nickels, and dimes. 12 quarters, and 8 halves. I have seen a few SMS certified quarters from both services which were misattributed. >>
When you say the quarters were mis-attriubted, do you mean they were bus. strikes certified as SMS's or vice-versa?
Also, are the Kennedy's 90% or 40%?
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