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Double mint sets, copper, and PCGS grading?

BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
So, looking at some double mint sets again, I got to wondering.......how much do the little spots (they don't quite appear to be carbon spots, I don't think) affect the grading?
In actuality, some of them look like little flecks of missing metal, but that is just how they toned/spotted.

Love the toning on these, haven't broken up a single set, but I still wonder how it affects the grading with PCGS.

Thoughts?


Here is an example:
image

I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

Comments

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think on that particular Lincoln it might knock off a point ... but I agree with you, I like the toning!
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  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    if the pictured coin is typical of what you have in the sets i don't think it would be wise to have them TPG certified no matter how attractive the tone may be to you. the pictured coin looks no better than MS63 and without knowing it had come from a Mint Set i would call it AU based only on the picture of the one side.
  • Looks like a 64RB....and in my experience....and you know it's extensive when it comes to sending in original mint set toners.....they downgrade 1/2 a point to a full point for spottyness like that whether it's carbon spots or not. I think they do it to protect themselves incse the spots are from something unstable on the surface of the coin. image

    I do agree with keets that the coin shown would not be worth certifying unless the reverse is a stone cold killer....
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
    AU.... image

    Thanks Giorgio and Shane.
    Shane, I do know you have some experience submitting from the double mint sets image
    I have no plans to submit but was curious. I've seen this on a couple over the years and was saddened as it does take away from a nice coin, imho.

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    no need to insult, i just offered an honest opinion based on the amount of unstruck planchet flaws and the area on the shoulder which looks like rub. if the coin were a typical "Guess the grade" i'm confident others would say the same thing, tone notwithstanding.

    i have come to expect as much from you, though, you appear to hold grudges and are unwilling to back down.......................ever, with me and others. perhaps you should read your own sigline.
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I expect nothing less from you.
    You got out of your way to insult or interject your own negativity.

    I asked a question, 2 out of 3 were answering THAT question.
    Thank you for your trolling image

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • MeltdownMeltdown Posts: 8,650 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have a few mint sets myself and easily half of the cents are spotty like that.
    It sure does take away from the overall beauty of those suckers.
    I'm not surprised that it takes away from the grade, but it's good to hear it from others with experience.
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I expect nothing less from you.
    You got out of your way to insult or interject your own negativity.


    no, Ron, i didn't, although you obviously inferred as much. i essentially said the same thing as Shane with the same tone. certainly i haven't looked at as many Mint Sets as he has since it is an area of focus for him, but i've looked at enough to know that tone such as this coin displays isn't out of the ordinary and the Cents generally look a bit less rough than this one. without knowing what he thinks, send Shane a PM and see if he thought my remarks were negative since he tended to agree with them.

    i'm done fighting and argueing with you about petty one-up's-man-ship whether you believe me or not, i just can't control how you interpret what i post.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That 1956 cent is not a great mint set coin, but it's definitely a Mint State piece. I see marks, spots and toning, but I don't see any breaks in the mint surface frost.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 22,994 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ron, I just received PCGS submission results a couple of days ago. it's submission 104670. (I'd link it, but don't know how. It is a 'shared' submission though, so take a peek.)

    The cents were nearly like yours and the grades, typical for the spotting, I'd assume. The color, like yours though, was too much to pass on not getting them graded/holdered.
    Now, admittedly, they're really just for me as there is no room having them graded and then sold at that grade level.

    I personally like the presentation PCGS affords to colorful, mintset toned coins from the 50's and that's the reason I submitted them.

    peacockcoins

  • lcoopielcoopie Posts: 8,691 ✭✭✭✭✭
    what are those spots, numismatically?
    LCoopie = Les
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>what are those spots, numismatically? >>



    Great question...I'm wondering that as well. They seriously look like the top layer of metal was removed (say, stuck to the sheet in the set and lifted for the easiest type of description)

    Braddick, thanks for the submission number. Would love to see some pics when they get back to you.

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • MadMartyMadMarty Posts: 16,697 ✭✭✭
    I could submit it for you, lock AU58 then!!
    It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!

  • 66RB66RB Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭
    Based on the image provided, I'd guess 63RB. I see no justification at all for an AU58 grade.

    The spots are most likely from the cardboard holder breaking down on some small level and leaving flecks of paper on the surface of the coin.

    Maybe forum member coppercolor will chime in as I know he just had a pretty large submission returned to him of quite a few mint-set toned Lincolns.
  • CoppercolorCoppercolor Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭
    Well 66RB, I guess it's better to chime in later than never right?

    Hey Bochiman, I'm curious if you submitted this coin. It's very pretty for a 56P, and not the most common colorful date which is 56D and 57D, followed by 56P and 57P and then 58P&D etc.

    If so are you willing to reveal the grade? I was going to guess 63RB if you sent it to PCGS, maybe a grade higher at NGC.

    I'm sure there are far greater experts on submitting mint set lincolns but I've put my share through PCGS with nice results.

    But I think you've got both carbon spots and some environmental damage, damage being from mint set cardboard and paper. There seems to be a fine line on copper between toning with great colors, and corroding. SOme of my most vibrant copper pieces also have verdigris. I dont know what the big blotches are on your coin but I don't think they're paper contact, which tends to show up on the high spots and I have seen evidence of paper contact on the LIncoln's face, ear hair and jacket on the obverse, on the reverse though I've seen it on the lettering and the background between the lower portion of the wheat stalks.

    I actually have a 66BN 1957D, which I consider the finest and most colorful fully obverse toned lincoln that I've ever seen of any date. Got it from Dennis King. It's no joke and I'll have to get it image. PCGS gave it a 66BN despite the fact that it has a tiny bit of green spotting on the crevaces of the face only visible under microscope and stable for years, and more importantly, it's got a bunch of what looks like delaminating on the reverse. But the delaminated areas are dark like this and may actually be the sulfur paper "burning" the surface of the coin, or reacting with an area where there was impurity or more reactive alloy mixture near the surface. That could also be the case with this coin.

    I love these mint set toners.
    Jeff
    I'd like my copper well done please!
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey Jeff,

    Nope....never did submit it. Figured they would GEN it or give it a low grade and I, too, like the toning.
    Dennis King has some KILLER toners....but his prices are way out there too....

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • PawPaulPawPaul Posts: 5,845
    Coppercolor is a real authority on Mint Set cents,

    you can bank on that -
  • CoppercolorCoppercolor Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭
    Thanks PP, but I'm not sure I'm an "authority" on anything.

    And don't undersell yourself there homie. I think I remember my eyes bulging out of their head at the sight of the mint set lincolns which showed up in my mailbox when two certain board members made some Toned Franklins - for - toned Lincolns exchanges. YOU may be the authority judging by what you'd socked away. There are a couple coins in that group that never ever fail to get my pulse racing and that's after looking at LOTS of mint set lincolns.

    I'd like my copper well done please!
  • My guess on the 1956 cent would be 64RB, shot 65RB.
  • SamByrdSamByrd Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭✭
    I do think MS64-5 is about right with any TPG. One aspect though if the coin were in a slab the grade has no impact on the price in the market place under ms65.
    The value is that its an attractive mint set example. I would add though that I hope you keep the set original these are rapidly being broken up and are far less common then they were even 5 years ago. Great coin at any rate, truly a classic mint set coin from that era.
  • CoppercolorCoppercolor Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭


    << <i>My guess on the 1956 cent would be 64RB, shot 65RB. >>



    I wouldn't argue Mark's assertion and I think I'm about to say the same thing that Sam just said... But the fact is, because 56' and 57' mint set lincolns come with color they don't often sell for more than grading fees unless it either has a) Monster Unforgettable Color b) MS66 grade, in which case they could fetch handsome prices.

    But that's not to say you shouldn't slab this for your collection. Either way, I don't think more time in the original holder would be advisable. IMO
    I'd like my copper well done please!
  • PawPaulPawPaul Posts: 5,845
    Coppercolor ,

    you are far too modest ..........although the pennies I sent you represented the cream of looking for them at coin shows for some 15 years , and culling them out of a slew of Mint Sets I bought over some 20 year period

    as well , ..........I wouldn't consider myself anything but in your shadow when it come's to knowledge and experience with them .
  • Oh boy! Another Bochiman/Keets spat in the making!

    In answer to your query Bman, I agree w/others in that it likely knocks off one point.



    << <i>...the finest and most colorful fully obverse toned lincoln that I've ever seen of any date. Got it from Dennis King. >>


    I bet dollars to donuts you paid dearly for that one Jeff!

    image
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  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,485


    << <i>

    << <i>My guess on the 1956 cent would be 64RB, shot 65RB. >>



    I wouldn't argue Mark assertion. But the fact is, because of they commonly come with color these 56' and 57' mint set lincolns don't often sell for more than grading fees unless it either has a) Monster Unforgettable Color b) MS66 grade, in which case they could fetch handsome prices.

    But that's not to say you shouldn't slab this for your collection. Either way, I don't think more time in the original holder would be advisable. IMO >>

    I wasn't recommending that the coin be submitted for grading - my apologies if I gave the wrong impression.
  • droopyddroopyd Posts: 5,381 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Oh boy! Another Bochiman/Keets spat in the making! >>



    Yes children, please keep it in the PMs. Sniping should be reserved for eBay.
    Me at the Springfield coin show:
    image
    60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
  • CoppercolorCoppercolor Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭


    << <i>...the finest and most colorful fully obverse toned lincoln that I've ever seen of any date. Got it from Dennis King. >>


    I bet dollars to donuts you paid dearly for that one Jeff!

    image >>



    Yes of course it's true Bushmaster, but it felt good!

    After a little research I saw that the coin sold in an old heritage auction at about 150 or a little less, he sold it to me at $325 if my memory serves me. But that sure doesn't feel like a lot of money for a coin that surpasses anything I've found in 20 years? But maybe it's just my personal tastes talking, and remember all this from the king of burying himself in colorful lincolns. --> --> arrows pointing to moi image
    I'd like my copper well done please!
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Oh boy! Another Bochiman/Keets spat in the making!

    In answer to your query Bman, I agree w/others in that it likely knocks off one point.



    << <i>...the finest and most colorful fully obverse toned lincoln that I've ever seen of any date. Got it from Dennis King. >>


    I bet dollars to donuts you paid dearly for that one Jeff!

    image >>




    Nah...no spat. I expect nothing else from keets as I have difficulty finding anything positive from his posts; and I have tried. image

    So, the general consensus is that it would knock the grade (I expected that), but other agree that the color is nice. I do take notice from Jeff that it shouldn't spend much more time (if any at all) in the original holder and I may take it out and self-slab as I don't think it is worth grading (not for me and I doubt many others would want it; especially enough to make it worth paying for slabbing).

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

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