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1909 vdb Lincoln Cent matte proof-like

BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,718 ✭✭✭✭✭
Here is a real neat 1909 vdb Lincoln Cent that seems to have some of the attributes of a matte proof. A real neat 09vdb. buffnixx
image

image

Thick squared rims and matte surfaces, especially the reverse.
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"

Comments

  • Yea, that does look matte like. Is there a die scratch in front of the nose?
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,718 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes there is a die scratch in front of the nose. I just personally examined the coin.
    buffnixx
    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nice coin.... Cheers, RickO
  • ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,831 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nope. sorry, not a mattie.

    Missing the die chip to the right of UNUM. This is a crescent shaped chip that almost looks like another period, such as the one that seperates the other words.

    sorry. Not nearly granular enough either.

  • renomedphysrenomedphys Posts: 3,685 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fantastic rims! Some bad details make me think MS. Bad shoulder, bad "WE TR", left wheat ear looks weak near OF. Still, I would pour over this coin for proof diagnostics before I sent it packing. Mirrored edge? Is the die chip really missing near UNUM?
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Neat VDB but looks a bit hard from a prior dip image
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭
    Hi again buffnixx,
    Boy, we both love these 1909VDB MPL's. Of course, you don't REALLY want to see if PCGS will confirm that it IS a real MPL, do you? All the pictures and comments in the world won't change this fact. Unless and until PCGS or NGC slabs and grades your coin as an MPL, the hobby will not recognize it as such, at least as far as $$$ is concerned. Good luck if you decide to submit assuming you own the example shown.
    Steveimage
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,718 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Steve -- I never said this was a matte proof lincoln, I called it matte prooflike!! I think I got the term MPL mixed up, I guess the matte proof fanatics use the term MPL as short for matte proof lincoln. I do own this coin and it is really unusual. Try to find a business strike with these kind of rims, almost impossible. I never intended, and do not intend, to submit it to any grading service in the hopes of getting it called a matte proof. I do not think it is a matte proof. buffnixx
    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,718 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Proud owner of all 90 Major Lincoln PROOF Wheat & Memorial cents, 44 Lincoln CIRCULATION STRIKE Wheat & Memorial cents and 16 Lincoln Satin Finish Mint Set Memorial cents in the Set Registries

    I will never figure understand (see above) why people seem compleled to do this. buffnixx
    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"

  • Very nice coin, proof like, as you say.

    Jim
  • sinin1sinin1 Posts: 7,500
    that is a nice coin


    it has what I consider pumpkin like color on the reverse

    when they say 'clean and retoned' - does that mean dipped in something?

    and how can the copper inept determine that?
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    The term “proof-like” is normally reserved for production coins that have reflective surfaces mimicking mirror proofs. It is confusing when applied to matte proof Lincolns or Buffalos.
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,718 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I do not think that the term "matte proof-like" is confusing. Look at the following Lincoln cent that is for sale, see the website
    www.numiscent.com. This coin has matte proof characteritics too but is not a matte proof. Read his description. Here is the photo.

    image
    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    Matte proof dies were not polished, or repolished as possible with mirror proofs. They, however, used for production after being retired from matte proof use. Further, proof-like dies resulted in production of coins approximating mirror-proof coins - never matte proof.

    Using a term only associated with mirror proof coins, in relation to matte proofs is not only confusion to newer collectors, but meaningless to the more experienced. Just an opinion.

    BTW - nice photos of a 1911 capped die!
  • deefree49deefree49 Posts: 282 ✭✭✭
    hmmm....6 years later...thousands of coins later...

    I've been busting my behind looking at every VDB in the world hoping to find a proof that slipped under the radar. Anyone who has immersed themselves into this subject will likely know the following:

    1) crescent shaped little "frown" to the right of UNUM. Can't be too close or too far away from the 2nd M, and can't be too high or too low. Actual proofs have the little crescent sitting about at the level of the middle of the M. Like this: M -

    2) The dot after the D in "VDB" is spaced in the middle of the D and B, not next to the D as it is in most business strikes. Some business strikes will have the dot in the middle but no proofs have the dot closer to the D than the B. The coin in the picture here has the dot too close to the D to be a proof.

    3) The die lines off the nose will point to the zero of the date. Take a ruler and see if any lines take this trajectory. I've seen lots of die lines on VDBs that point elsewhere. These are not genuine proofs.

    4) Rims have sharp corners and the inside goes straight down. Sloping means business strike.

    5) A die line from Lincoln's back shoulder rising upward towards the R in Liberty.

    6) The old adage is that business strikes can have some of these attributes but if they are missing one, it is a business strike and not a proof.



    Look at proof coins enough and after awhile you will get the "feel" of a genuine proof coin when you see one. I've found many coins with squared rims, a well placed dot in between the D and B and even with die lines near the nose. Often though, close examination will reveal the rims aren't bold enough or the die lines aren't pointed to the right spot. Almost all the time, the crescent is missing, in the wrong place, a scratch or just a shadow caused by dirt. Considering the 53 coin hoard, coins sent in for a new grade and the low number actually released to the public, there are less than 100 certified VDB proofs in holders being held by collectors outside of the 53 coin hoard. Chances of a raw undiscovered coin at this point are literally about 1 in 10 million among raw 1909 VDB coins. Since the proofs cost only a few cents originally and collectors generally were disappointed in them, they were spent. Probably during the depression, a loaf of bread seemed more valuable.
    Lincoln coin lover, especially Matte Proofs
  • drwstr123drwstr123 Posts: 7,040 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've had a couple proof-like VDBs.
    Here's one I still own, it's PCGS 91.
    imageimage
  • deefree49deefree49 Posts: 282 ✭✭✭
    That is a nice one! I like the toning very much. There have been several times over the years I've bid on "proof like" VDBs and I've even won a couple of auctions. After close examination my hopes always ended up dashed. Nevertheless, it is fun to hunt! Even though nothing has ever turned out to be the "genuine article" it has certainly given me many, many hours of entertainment.

    I would have bought the coin you imaged here just for the nice toning. Very pretty and of course, unique!
    Lincoln coin lover, especially Matte Proofs

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