Ethics
sumnom
Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
This question comes from time to time on the Lite Side but I thought I'd ask it here.
What would you do if you had the opportunity to buy a coin worth tens of thousands of dollars for just one hundred from someone who didn't know what they had? Would you just do it and call it good? Would you tell the person the true value? Would you buy it cheaply and then share some of the profit? It doesn't seem right to me to buy an extremely valuable coin for next to nothing when the seller is unaware of the value, especially in a case where that person may not be especially well off. And yet, if I had the opportunity to do so, I cannot be so sure that I would not give in to temptation and just do it.
Here is a possible example.
What do you all think?
What would you do if you had the opportunity to buy a coin worth tens of thousands of dollars for just one hundred from someone who didn't know what they had? Would you just do it and call it good? Would you tell the person the true value? Would you buy it cheaply and then share some of the profit? It doesn't seem right to me to buy an extremely valuable coin for next to nothing when the seller is unaware of the value, especially in a case where that person may not be especially well off. And yet, if I had the opportunity to do so, I cannot be so sure that I would not give in to temptation and just do it.
Here is a possible example.
What do you all think?
0
Comments
Then again, the market value at the moment I purchased them was in fact what I paid. But this argument doesn't work for me in the case of an 1827 US quarter for $125.00. Ahh, I am deeply conflicted. Un/fortunately, I am not faced with this dilemma.
If I am working with a dealer or occasional seller, I always point out if I think the coin is worth a lot more than the seller thinks it is. The only exception I can recall was a 1918 H penny I bought once that was graded VF, which looked about EF to me (British gVF), but came back NGC MS63. I honestly thought it was fairly priced, but was shocked at the slabbing outcome (I had another UNC example and it was a heckuva lot nicer).
If I am bidding on ebay (or any other auction) and I get a great price, I chalk it up to being lucky. I have been very lucky on occasion, but have found it always averages out in the long run - as I have also gotten the short end as a seller.
That's unfortunate. What is the difference between that stance and standing on a shady street corner with three shells and a ball waiting for the first sucker to come along?
<< <i>The majority opinion on the Lite Side is that it is completely fine to take advantage of someone's ignorance for profit.
That's unfortunate. What is the difference between that stance and standing on a shady street corner with three shells and a ball waiting for the first sucker to come along? >>
I really don't know, Wybrit.
First of all, ethically speaking, would you not offer a fair price, regardless of the seller's knowledge (or lack thereof)?
If not, why not? To get a rip? To bask in the sun of taking advantage of someone else, to prove you are clever, and all
the other rationalizations you can think of... Vexing, this knowledge that is available to you...
or a putz? Does it make a difference?
A transaction is a simple matter of what the buyer feels comfortable paying for an item. There could be a lot of factors involved
in that. Available ready cash, length of time required to turn a deal for a profit, etc. Still, in the ethical sense, if you seriously
low-ball someone, and not let them share in the potential profits, your standing is shaky, in an ethical sort of way, IMHO.
Chances are, when someone is willing to take $100 for an item which is worth tremendously more, if it is pointed out to them
the folly of their ways, when they find out it is something REALLY worth money, you will not make the sale anyway. They will
want to get with their attorney, their mother-in-law, their wife, or whomever, before they decide what to do. When you point
out that they were willing to sell their treasure for next to nothing, until you were honest about how much it was really worth,
you may get some sympathy, but still not sale.
The best approach is to make a competitive offer based on market prices. Encourage them to seek other offers. If you are
competitive in your buying offers, they will be back... The next best approach is to offer profit sharing, i.e. $500 cash and 50%
of any amount above $1,000 (or something similar).
If you try a rip - the ethical factor not even in play - and the seller hears of your selling that $100 purchase for $10,000 or more,
for example - there is a mighty big chance you would be sued for taking advantage of their ignorance of values. It has happened
before, both in the coin and stamp world. You are the "professional," you are not supposed to rip people like that...
Note that the above opinions do not fit the case where the collector or savvy professional cherry picks something from another
professional. The professional is expected to know what he or she has, and what the market value is for it...
Just some random thoughts from me.
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
<< <i>What would you do if you had the opportunity to buy a coin worth tens of thousands of dollars for just one hundred from someone who didn't know what they had? >>
I honestly don't know what I'd do. Consider for example you pick up an unknown masterpiece at a yard sale, and you pay the seller what seems to be an outrageous sum for an old painting. Would you feel bad or lucky to be knowledgeable enough to know the masterpiece when you saw it.
If someone had a collection of US-Philippine Pesos, every date - all of them including the 1906-S, and all in uncirculated condition, and if they knew I collected such coins and was asking $500 each for them, I'd probably take them all and immediately send the 1906-S to PCGS for certification, possibly as the finest known, since the current finest known is in MS62. And I'd feel extremely lucky, but would I also feel bad? I don't know. Would it be immoral? I don't know the answer to that one either.
I regularly stake out ebay auctions for listings of scarce to rare coins just to see if I can get smoking deals on coins that I otherwise could not afford. And on rare occasions I get lucky. I don't tell the seller they poorly listed the auction. I don't tell them that they should have provided better images or an auction title that would get the notice of collectors, and I don't tell them the coin they are listing as uncirculated looks more like a proof issue from the image.
Just off the top of my head, on at least two occasions I have purchased $100 to $250 proof coins for $40 each. I still have one and I traded the other for another $250 coin. I don't feel the least bit guilty about those events, and I don't feel that I did anything immoral, so there's the quandry in which I find myself.
Good question!
If it is an offering via auction (ebay), I do not see any harm in buying the piece at a steal since it was open to the world to see and compete.
If it is offered by a dealer at a coin show, again I do not see the harm in negotiating the best price possible, as the dealer should be armed with the knowledge of the product he/she is selling.
If it is a private 1 to 1 transaction (garage sale, friend, family member, neighbor, etc), you cannot assume the seller is knowledgeable about what they have, nor have they had the chance to talk to other possible buyers. You also might not know with certainty that the piece is legitimate or rightfully owned by the seller. I think it is only fair to offer to help them: bring in a 3rd party to validate (or send to a TGP) -- or -- help them find a buyer and suggest spliting the profits so you both come out ahead. I am too suspicious by nature to believe there are not hidden agendas in the situation described in the post on the Liteside.
Edited to add: I'm being case specific here. I have no problem getting a deal or a rip. It's a fine line that I usually let my gut decide.
As a collector I scour trays for anything that catches my eye and if I see a bargain that has been missed by the dealer I take the opportunity to get something on the cheap. On ebay when I have the time to wade through the piles of dross I sometimes get lucky, but as a previous poster has said, the whole world had the chance to buy the coin, so no remorse.
As a dealer it generally falls into a couple of situations. Usually, someone turns up at the table with a pile of dross as normally found on ebay and expects too much for something that is going to be impossible to shift. With no time to check the contents thoroughly you add up the bullion and offer the going rate with a small adjustment for the base material. If both sides are happy with this there is no moral dilemma and occasionally you have a nice surprise days or months later. Sometimes you are offered quality material and then a number of factors come into play. Generally speaking I will offer a price based on what the coin actually is, but then mark down depending on how easy it is to shift with the caveat that I may already have an example for sale and so may not be interested in any case. For example, someone approached me with ten sovereigns wanting to know how much I would offer. 9 were bullion, but the tenth was an EF 1838. Gold has an intrinsic bullion value and so the former were priced to give myself a small profit which I knew I could immediately realise - this market is always competitively priced. The latter had a four figure price tag and so could not necessarily be shifted that day, consequently you offer a price which is a larger discount (than that on the bullion) to book but which is not too far below as the coin is very collectable. 3 separate dealers offered sums within £50 on a total of about £2K at the time, so the impression is that many people will be pretty honest when it comes to buying and not try to rip off the uninitiated. However, if someone comes to you and confidently says they want £x for something, you have to assume they have done the homework and then it becomes a case of do I want to buy at that price or not assuming I can reasonably expect to make a profit.
To summarise, from my perspective if the seller is unsure you help them; if they are confident, you assume they are effectively acting as a mobile dealer and so don't need any help.
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
<< <i>If it is an offering via auction (ebay), I do not see any harm in buying the piece at a steal since it was open to the world to see and compete.
If it is offered by a dealer at a coin show, again I do not see the harm in negotiating the best price possible, as the dealer should be armed with the knowledge of the product he/she is selling. >>
I feel the same. But if it's someone without any numismatic knowledge, or just naive, I would always tell them the true value.
For example like a little old lady or even a young guy who has just inherited some coins and wants to sell them.
I don't know how people sleep at night taking advantage of the naive or uninformed.
Some of my response may seem contradictory, but there it is.
if/when I hear of a seller who does take advantage of the proverbial little old lady, or even in the case in the OP, I will never do business with them. 2 reasons why,
- it's ethically abhorrent to me
- they will just as easily take advantage of me
But the seller who is honest, and yes still makes a profit, will always get business from me. I have sellers I've been loyal to for a dozen years because of that.
To stake potential future purchases on one good low ball could be dangerous at best for you. Never know what lays years down the road.
FOR SALE Items
I wouldn't lie to a seller or intentionally cheat someone.
That said, I have collected coins for more that 50 years.
I have spent untold thousands of Dollars on my mistakes and on my learning about coins.
Should I just give this away?
Knowledge is power, and those that work to attain knowledge are entitled to profit from their knowledge.
Ray
8 Reales Madness Collection
If a fellow collector or novice offered to sell me something not knowing it is rare or valuable, I would personally feel bad if I didn't mention it to them.
Having said that, I have no problem at all in an impersonal transaction like Ebay, where I can spot a coin or a
medal that I think is underpriced, put in a low bid and win it. That's the nature of the beast and I've been on the other
end of it several times.
Back in the 80's I set up tables in coin shows in Chicago, our local area and several other cities.
This was before PCGS, and I saw so many ethics abominations in dealing that it almost turned me off the
whole coin collecting/dealing field.
In one memorable case, two old guys, one in a wheel chair, rolled into a Chicago show with stacks of
St. Gaudens gold coins that they proceeded to pile on the first dealer table they ran into-the one closest to the entry door.
Like the other dealers at the show I was drawn to the scene as they continued to pile the coins up, stack after stack,
for the dealer's appraisal and offer.
Dealers and collectors were standing 2 to 3 deep to watch the transaction.
The protocol in that situation is that none of the other dealers said ANYthing as the dealer at the table calculated
the value of the coins on their BULLION value based on the Gray Sheet and made them a wholesale offer on that basis.
Within fifteen or twenty minutes the transaction was over; the dealer had rounded up cash from a few other contacts to
settle the deal, paid the old guys on the spot and they left.
Then the games began as the buyer sorted through, pulling out the uncirculated coins, MS 63-65s or better in
some cases, checking dates and listening to offers from other dealers.
Bottom line, except for the lowest grade circulated coins, probably 25 or 30 of them passed from dealer to dealer
the rest of the show period at ever increasing prices based on the dealer's knowledge of the grade, the date, and
the clients he had for them.
Make of it what you will, the first dealer was certainly unethical to buy coins that were obviously uncirculated and
at higher grade and scarcer date for bullion prices; and 20 or 30 co-conspirators, if you will, stood by without saying
a word hoping to participatein the "division of the spoils" carnage that followed.
Knowledge is power? I suppose.
But where does a conspiracy of silence come into play?
And as the saying goes; "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".
It's just that I got my PCGS grades.
I was chatting with a dealer friend on the bourse when Mr. Darkside Dealer walks up to the other dealer to announce his fresh "rip".
It seems an ordinary "Joe" had walked into the show with a certain European gold proof, a matte proof (although I can't recall the exact coin). The first dealer had offered him $500, but "Joe" had a price in mind, and that was too low. So, on over to the next dealer, Mr. Darkside Dealer, sizing up the pawn, asked how much do you want for the coin? Joe thought about it and said, $700, but Mr. D.D. said, "No, about $600 is all I could go."
DEAL!! Joe left with $600 in CASH, and Mr. D.D. started walking the floor letting every other dealer he saw know about the "rip". Oh yeah, the coin was worth between $5,000-5,500 wholesale. Mr. D.D. also announced that he had already called his client and closed the retail end of the transaction for $7,000.
As my friend opined when D.D. walked off with his spoils, "Now you know why the guy's as rich as he is."
Honestly, I don't know what I would do, as I've not been in a position like that. I would hope that I would do "the right thing" but it depends on the person and the situation. Did the person come to you and ask for your help/assistance/knowledge? Or did the person hand you the coin and adamantly say "I want $125 for it and I won't take a penny less!!"
Slight difference there, no?
Many people here consider that paying "another collector" their asking price when you know the coin is worth more to be a stoning offense, but have absolutely no reservations at all about doing the same thing to a dealer. Isn't that hypocritical? Don't the lines frequently blur between collector and dealer? Why should that make a difference?
What about spotting a gem in a bulk lot on eBay? The same moralists here, if they are being consistent, should never hit the "Buy It Now" button, but instead notify the seller and allow them to withdraw the lot or raise the price. How many actually do that? I'm sure there will be plenty who loudly proclaim that they do so, and get indignant about my contending that they don't, but I guess I'm a cynic when it comes to human nature.
At the end of the day, I don't think there is a clear cut right and wrong answer as it depends on the item, the person, and the individual situation. In general, I don't have a problem with "getting a rip" from either a dealer or a collector if THEY are the one setting the price and I am simply agreeing to pay it. If I pay the seller's asking price, plain and simple, I have no reservations about the purchase, and do so with a clear conscience. If, on the other hand, the person has come to me to avail themselves of my opinion, expertise, or experience, then I feel I should reveal what I know, and not try to turn it to my advantage.
This does has its risks though, and I think that is what gives people pause. Just because YOU do the right thing and reveal what you know about the coin/stamp/widget/etc., does NOT mean that the other person will be thankful or even appreciative. They may just take the money and run, without your getting so much as a thank you, let alone a consulting fee or commission. You may not even get an opportunity to the buy the coin in question at ANY price.
If the other party is a friend or coworker, that's a different matter, but a stranger selling at a garage sale or selling on eBay?
It really depends on the situation...
Some of my best "rips" have come from hitting the Buy-It-Now button on eBay when the seller didn't know what they had. Some of my worst mistakes have come the same way. I have no reservations about either.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
I don't think many here have climbed too high on a moral high horse, though the opinions have varied. I'm with you on the "I don't know", because I really don't, but I would hope I would do the right thing, knowing that my God is always watching.
And thank you for your fair dealing with me in past transactions.
<< <i>coinpictures,
I don't think many here have climbed too high on a moral high horse, though the opinions have varied. >>
I should have been clearer - I'm not necessarily referring to people in this thread here today; it's primarily geared towards responses that have come on the Lightside whenever this topic comes up (and it comes up regularly).
<< <i>I'm with you on the "I don't know", because I really don't, but I would hope I would do the right thing, knowing that my God is always watching. >>
Yeah, until you're in that exact position you never truly know. You can try and predict what you would do, but it's different.
<< <i>And thank you for your fair dealing with me in past transactions. >>
Likewise.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
While we have all seen, heard or even witnessed some very questionable transactions- it seems that one can still have ethics, collect or buy and sell coins and still sleep at night knowing that not all transactions will have the same facts. The duties owed or even owed to you range dramatically depending on the participants and the coins involved in the transaction.
I tried to be brief and to the point
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
For me, I was at someone's table in Baltimore awhile back--someone famous-y I can't remember who, and I asked to look at a Japanese trade dollar--I had no intention of buying it, but it was cool and I wanted a peek. The guy started to hand it to me verbally giving a price of a common 1 yen at which point I raised my nose out of my JNDA catalog and said something like--"are you sure about that??". He took another look at what was in his hand and got a little pale. He tried to say if he'd finished offering it, he would have stood buy it, but I just wouldn't have accepted it...I mean really. Not worth it. He thought he'd picked up a different slab.
On the other hand, before coins, I was flipping through some prints at some collectibles show in VA Beach, and was at the booth of a print dealer who had the price written down on the label of a really cool Richard Stone Reeves print (big racehorse artist) and it was $125. I saw it and started squeaking at my then new husband who picked it up and bought it. It could've gone for 10x that--which I didn't know at the time, but I knew it was a Really Good Price. So, it was a rip, but I never hunted down the dealer that had priced it deliberately, rather than accidently like the first example. It's not like I sold the darn thing either...it's at my in-laws right now waiting for me to come back for it. And now, the collector base is probably dying off, so I'm sure it's decreased in value. Assuming my in-laws dog hasn't peed on it and ruined it completely.
Anyway, once I was the good guy, and once I suppose I was the bad guy. In my mind though the first guy was goofing up and I wasn't taking advantage of that. The second time...well it was a dealer who had put his fair price on the tag on purpose. I knew it was a low price--more than I realized at the time, but still, he was the professional and I expected his expertise to serve him. Most of my other 'rips' are along the line of I got a good bid in an auction and I can't help that. And considering how many stupid things I bid on (medals) where I truly have no idea of value, I'm sure I pay the sellers back
Cathy
<< <i> I would hope that I would do "the right thing" but it depends on the person and the situation. Did the person come to you and ask for your help/assistance/knowledge? Or did the person hand you the coin and adamantly say "I want $125 for it and I won't take a penny less!!" >>
I agree that the context is important.
I'm involved with a charity group that occasionally gets coins donated to it. As "the coin guy" in the group, it's my "job" to see the coins sold and the money returned to the causes the charity supports. Now, sometimes, I want some or all of the coins myself; other times I don't. I think most people would agree with me when I say that, when placed in a position of trust like that, the ethical thing to do would be to obtain as "fair" a value as possible for the coins, even if you personally are going to be the one handing over the cash.
For coins I buy off them myself, that means that I take them to a couple of nearby coin dealers and ask them what they'd normally pay for coins like these (with the understanding established beforehand that I was simply asking for a quote, and wouldn't be expecting them to actually buy them). Then I look the coins up in the catalogues / online guides / eBay to see what the retail or "book values" of those coins are. I would then pay to the charity somewhere in between those two values, depending on how much I actually wanted the coin - if it was a coin I had actually been searching for, I'd probably even pay the charity a good deal more than the "book value". But that hasn't happened to me yet. Sometimes, I'll put the items in my local coin club auction; if I want some of them badly enough, I'll bid for them, but in a fair, "competitive" environment.
For me with coin dealers, the situation is slightly different. Most of the dealers around here know I'm always happy to help them identify and value coins that they're not familiar with; when they see me coming, they're often ready with a bag of mysteries for me. The trust situation again; when someone asks you for help, you shouldn't take advantage of it. However, if they've gone ahead and put something up for sale anyways, with a ridiculously low price, they're fair game; they've (hopefully) got their pricing information from somewhere, and so long as it's not me, accepting their offer is fair. With my memory, I'd probably be misremembering which coins were "valuable", anyway.
A coin show or auction is likewise fair game; at a typical coin show there are any number of experts available to ask before the show starts; if they start the show with coins at "ridiculously low" prices, they've only got themselves to blame.
Two other points to raise in such a situation:
- We may not know the history of the item; how long it's been in their possession and what price they've been asking for it. The dealer may have had a "realistic" price on it for the past six months, and it hasn't sold. The guy might simply be trying to get rid of it. I recall selling a Swiss Cantonal coin to a dealer. The next time I visited I noticed it was for sale, with a "realistic" price on it (which was about double what he'd paid me). Last I saw it, it was still there in his inventory taking up space in his display case when the dealership closed down, several years later. I even felt guilty going into that shop and seeing it there; I got my money from that coin, but my dealer friend never did.
- Whatever ridiculously low price the dealer has placed on a coin, it's a certainty that they probably paid even less for it to its original owner; they wouldn't be selling it at a loss unless they were really desperate to get rid of it. The dealer will be happy making their usual cut on it. If you did point out that he could sell it for much, much more, or even offer to pay much, much more for it, do you think the dealer would hunt down the original owner of the coin and give them a dividend of this unexpected windfall? Not even the most honest and scrupulous dealers I've known would do that. So, given that the "original owner" isn't going to get an extra cent either way, who "deserves" the windfall more: the dealer that didn't do the homework, or the collector who did?
Ripping off a dealer: it's not something I personally would do - I guess I'm too honest (or maybe I'm just not very good at keeping my mouth shut). But it's not something I would condemn as "wrong".
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
......Would it change the equation any if the proceeds from a questionable 'rip' were used for "good", like a donation of the funds to charity or other worthy cause?
Or would the ends still not justify the means?
What would you do if you had the opportunity to buy a coin worth tens of thousands of dollars for just one hundred from someone who didn't know what they had?
my reply would be that I'd buy it, for a variety of reasons, such as the possibility of someone else buying it if I pass, or the coin's provenance (stolen?). It's a hypothetical question anyway, as it is practically impossible that someone legally owns something so expensive and is not aware of its value. What I'd do after that, is another question.
But the thread took a different turn, which I followed with great interest. Ethics is perhaps the most important part of this hobby, and we are all daily judged from our actions. I saw replies that made a point of using different standards if the seller is a professional dealer, or not. To me, it's not an issue. Besides, the worst behaviours I've seen have always come from collectors, or collectors-would be dealers.
Ask me how many collectors I've seen trying (and often succeeding) to deceive a novice, with the sole excuse that they underwent a similar initiation to the hobby. As if this justifies their willingness to continue such a bad practice. Ask me how I feel about collectors who overgrade their coins for sale to a criminal level, or who use ebay as a dumpbin for their unsellable coins, even if there is a possibility that one day they will meet face to face with their buyers. How about bidders who contact a seller by making him an offer and asking them to end their auction early? Or these sellers who do indeed agree to this disgraceful practice, with total disrespect to the other bidders and watchers?
How about some bidders, who make arrangements in advance of a live auction, and decide how to share the lots, by not bidding against each other and thus winning the coins at incredibly low prices? I should of course add, that the internet and the wide exposure it created, has severely affected this kind of fraud , but it still exists. I could go on forever. In short, I'd say that collectors are almost always behaving worse than dealers. Lately, I've been particularly disgusted, by repeated resales from one collector to another ,of very expensive coins, at upto five times the previous purchase price. One can argue that the victim is equally responsible by willingly accepting such a transaction and there is some truth in it. But when you know, that the victim is by no means wealthy, and one purchase is equal to three salaries of his, I don't understand how the seller can live and sleep without any feelings of guilt.
Then there's the general behaviour. I can't explain it, but the passion of ownership,so often leads to such jealousy, lack of dignity, pettiness, and so many other shortcomings. These very same people behave very differently in their daily lives, but when it comes to coins, it seems as if they leave their integrity at home and they are transformed to different creatures. And unfortunately, it spreads like cancer. The more one sees others behaving badly, the more he's tempted to do the same. Fortunately for me, I've had this forum since 2003, this temple of integrity and honesty, to constantly remind me of what not to do.
myEbay
DPOTD 3
The protocol in that situation is that none of the other dealers said ANYthing as the dealer at the table calculated
the value of the coins on their BULLION value based on the Gray Sheet and made them a wholesale offer on that basis.
Within fifteen or twenty minutes the transaction was over; the dealer had rounded up cash from a few other contacts to
settle the deal, paid the old guys on the spot and they left.
Then the games began as the buyer sorted through, pulling out the uncirculated coins, MS 63-65s or better in
some cases, checking dates and listening to offers from other dealers.
Bottom line, except for the lowest grade circulated coins, probably 25 or 30 of them passed from dealer to dealer
the rest of the show period at ever increasing prices based on the dealer's knowledge of the grade, the date, and
the clients he had for them.
Make of it what you will, the first dealer was certainly unethical to buy coins that were obviously uncirculated and
at higher grade and scarcer date for bullion prices; and 20 or 30 co-conspirators, if you will, stood by without saying
a word hoping to participatein the "division of the spoils" carnage that followed.
I disagree. The first dealer ,had no way of knowing that the two sellers wouldn't bother asking other dealers, especially at a coin show, where all they had to do was to visit a few more tables,one next to the other, in a wheelchair friendly environment. He took a calculated risk that paid off but could have turned against him too. Judging from the fact that a few other dealers had heard his offer, I think that the odds were actually against him. Unless there was a secret pact among the dealers, to make the same offer in such occasions, in which case the winner who closes the deal, rewards the others by offering them parts of the goodies at his buying price.
Ripping off a dealer: it's not something I personally would do - I guess I'm too honest (or maybe I'm just not very good at keeping my mouth shut). But it's not something I would condemn as "wrong".
I once BINed a coin on ebay, whose seller was Josh, CIVITAS. His partner, had placed a very low BIN, about 25-30% of its value, but when I posted it here, Josh reacted with a smile. He wasn't happy, but he wasn't ruined either, although I'm sure he warned his partner to ask him first in the future, before taking such decisions. NEN has also taken hits without complaining, from unreasonable returns that they accept in order to keep their good rep,to unfair grading, without ever resubmitting, regardless of their buying price. The mistakes are lessons for the future,but it's the weekly or monthly total that counts, not a coin per coin case.
myEbay
DPOTD 3