1917 Walking Liberty Half Proof??? in Coin World...
aus3000tin
Posts: 369 ✭✭✭
Just looking through the December 28, 2010, issue of Coin World.
On page 12, The Coin Depot is selling a 1917 Walking Liberty Half - Toned Satin Proof - for $2995.00.
I didnt' know there were 1917 proofs of any coins.
Can anyone give me some information on this?
Thanks,
Chris
On page 12, The Coin Depot is selling a 1917 Walking Liberty Half - Toned Satin Proof - for $2995.00.
I didnt' know there were 1917 proofs of any coins.
Can anyone give me some information on this?
Thanks,
Chris
0
Comments
(Found the ad. That's a lot of money for an AU coin....now if it were a real "proof" the asking price is about 1/5 of what it might bring.)
I've been on line 15 minutes and read of nothing but idiocy!
Think I'll shut it down and go to bed.
Had to correct my idiotic spelling!
JT
I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
<< <i>Just looking through the December 28, 2010, issue of Coin World.
On page 12, The Coin Depot is selling a 1917 Walking Liberty Half - Toned Satin Proof - for $2995.00.
I didnt' know there were 1917 proofs of any coins.
Can anyone give me some information on this?
Thanks,
Chris >>
Isn't this issue out a bit early?
I agree with Coinguy1 - if a genuine early proof half surfaced, it would make pretty big news and be featured at a Heritage Platinum Night auction or similar venue.
Later, pattern pieces were struck w/o polishing of several variations on the designs. Almost all of these were, as normal, struck on a medal press. At least one pattern quarter that the grading companies call a “proof” was struck on a normal press, and is documented as such by mint officers. It is not a proof, but is an early strike off new dies ---- not that it matters.
“Proof” is a manufacturing process, not a condition, and definitely not applied only to mirror-surface coins.
<< <i>In his 'Encyclopedia' Walter Breen states there were "at least 3 satin proofs" of the 1917 half dollars. >>
Breen made reference to many esoteric proof's, a number of which have not stood up to modern day scrutiny and/or been verified.
<< <i>In May-June 1916, pattern pieces with polished fields were made of all three new designs. They were struck on a medal press as were ALL proofs. The results are, in this writer’s opinion, awful. [You can find details and photos in “Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921.”] None of the artists liked shiny, mirror coins.
Later, pattern pieces were struck w/o polishing of several variations on the designs. Almost all of these were, as normal, struck on a medal press. At least one pattern quarter that the grading companies call a “proof” was struck on a normal press, and is documented as such by mint officers. It is not a proof, but is an early strike off new dies ---- not that it matters.
“Proof” is a manufacturing process, not a condition, and definitely not applied only to mirror-surface coins. >>
Jay Cline has said that Satin Proofs exist, apparently he owns one, of the 1917 SLQs, although I have never heard of one or seen one.
Of course I assume said coin in CW is raw, I would want to see this authenticated myself.
Until Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921 was published in 2005, collectors didn’t know how satin proofs (aka “Roman proofs”) were made. Also, it was not known that some of the 1916 pattern/experimental quarters diems and halves were struck on a production press, not a medal press, as true proofs would have been. (The pieces are so rare that it doesn’t matter.)
Mr. Cline’s descriptions and coinage have not been updated to reflect this newer information.
BUFFNIXX
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
<< <i>There are some coin sellers whom I wouldn't believe or trust if they said the sun would come up tomorrow. >>
And...imho...Coin Depot is one of them.
<< <i>I did get a chance to view this coin up close and personal. I bought it and then returned it. It did indeed have thick squared rims but the color was dark and it really did obscure the surfaces. The rims themselves were fully squared around both the obverse and reverse with absolutely no beveling. It was an interesting and unusual coin. But like I said I returned it and got a full prompt refund.
BUFFNIXX >>
You didn't take any pics to show us?
<< <i>In his 'Encyclopedia' Walter Breen states there were "at least 3 satin proofs" of the 1917 half dollars.
Breen made reference to many esoteric proof's, a number of which have not stood up to modern day scrutiny and/or been verified. >>
Agreed, I think Breen states that a 1964 Franklin may exist, I'll believe this when I see it!
Franklin-Lover's Forum
Collector"
I did not think to take any pictures at the time. Again the extraordinary wide rims on both sides lead me to believe it could have been something special. There was no beveling and the individual reeds were all sharp and squared which is not typical of business strikes. However the surfaces were obscurred by dark toning and I forgot to mention a couple of scratches accross the obverse. Maybe the ultimate owner will get this conserved or dip it himself to better show the surfaces characteristics. There actually was a small picture of the coin included with the add by Coin Despot in December 28 CW ad as well as the original ad which I responded to a few months earlier. buffnixx
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
=================================================================================================
This is the text of a letter of authentication written by the late Walter Breen which is for a 1917 Walking Liberty Half Dollar that that is currently for sale on eBay -- item number 320196806988 .
(October 28, 2009) -- prepared by Thomas Arch
The text of his letter follows:
Box 352
Berkley CA 94701
August 17, 1991
To Whom It May Concern:
This certifies that I have examined the
Accompanying coin and that I unhesitatingly
Declare it genuine and as described below.
It is a 1917 satin finish Proof half dollar.
Finish is most like that on the first Peace
dollar proofs of 1921, somewhat similar to 1909-10
“Roman” finish gold. Both dies were polished,
Especially obverse. Striking quality is far better
than that on well struck unc. Business strikes,
on all relief details - head, hand, drapery, leaves,
Letters, sapling, feathers, even in areas normally
Weak. “squared” rims. This is the first I have
Seen in many years and possibly the 5th in all
Respectfully submitted,
(singed) WALTER BREEN
=============================================================================================
I was so impressed by this coin that I did save all the photos included with the auction. There were a dozen or so photos. The coin
actually does "carry its own credentials". I did not buy the coin but did save the text of the letter and the photos on this one. We can argue all day about the veracity of Breens authentications but truly this was a special strike in my opinion. The photos really do speak for them selves. (Note: Walter's letters of authentication are in his own stylitic cursive handwritting so this translation is really necessary!!)
buffnixx
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
RWB - Do 1917 Proofs of any denomination exist?
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
ANA Member R-3147111
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>Towards the end of October last year there was a 1917 WL half for sale on fleabay which had a letter of authentication from the late Walter Breen. >>
a coin and a hand written letter are like a coin and an opened TPG holder.
no offense.
<< <i>
<< <i>Towards the end of October last year there was a 1917 WL half for sale on fleabay which had a letter of authentication from the late Walter Breen. >>
a coin and a hand written letter are like a coin and an opened TPG holder.
no offense. >>
If the coin's appearance matches the letter, that is very different from a coin and an unopened holder. Especially, because a coin like that is extremely unusual and will have very few possible substitutes.
but if there's even a crack in this door, it may as well be wide open.
Have any of the so-called proofs of 1917 been independently authenticated by anyone other than Walter Breen? RWB - Do 1917 Proofs of any denomination exist?
A. No.
B. None have been independently authenticated. None are mentioned in documents.
C. A small number of pre-release 1916 halves were sent to friends of Secretary McAdoo in November 1916. They were the same as normal production coins.
personally, i think it would be way cool if we could positively track down examples of each.
<< <i>and again Walter Breen is taken to task for stating things which haven't been disproven and possibly can't be proven either way. i think what it all comes down to is what we each choose to believe within the realm of possibility. to that end, isn't it entirely possible that some of these 1917 issues were struck and survive?? isn't it entirely possible that Franklin Half-Dollars were struck dated 1964??.......................probably just as possible for both issues as for 1964 Peace Dollars existing, yet some would impugn Breen for claiming the former.
personally, i think it would be way cool if we could positively track down examples of each. >>
I agree with that. Also and to a certain degree, just the possibility of the existence of 1917 proofs is kind of, well, "magical."
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
ANA Member R-3147111
I did not try to attach a picture I just opened up a large number of lines prior to pasting Breen's letter and I opened up too many lines.
buffnixx
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
This is the one from ebay right? Do you know who bought it???
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>Here is a link to a photo of the reverse.......Reverse of Breen Authenticated 1917 satin proof walking liberty half dollar from buffnixx >>
Thanks for the link to the images. I believe that I have seen a good number of 1917 Walking Liberty Half Dollars with strikes which were as good as, if not superior to that one. And I would expect noticeably better detail (particularly on the obverse device) for a Proof.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
BUFFNIXX, i would be more/most interested in what your in-hand opinion of the coin might be. did you belive it to be just a well struck Business strike, perhaps strike off special dies of some sort or a true Proof?? that assessment should bear more weight than than a judgement based on pictures no matter how competent or experienced the interpreter might be.
The one from the Coin Depot I did have (bought and returned) and this coin did indeed have unusual thick squared rims and very sharply defined reeding completely unlike business strikes but the coin's surfaces were impaird by heavy dark toning/tarnish and thus I opted to return it.
I have no opinion one way or another on either coin except to say they do not seem to be typical of the many business strikes I have seen.
BUFFNIXX
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
a "First Strike" heh
early business strike off new dies?
or.... who knows?
(you know I'm just asking questions.... I know I'm too new to tell.... but it is a nice strike compared with others I've seen.
The first thing I noticed was the picture quality...
They definitely need better lighting.
to keets -- I have enabled my private messaeges as you suggested so any one can contact me this way.
buffnixx
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
How to you get the actual photo into your post?
I can get the link in but not the actual photo.
buffnixx
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
buffnixx
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
<< <i>This is to coinguy1, Mark Feld --
How to you get the actual photo into your post?
I can get the link in but not the actual photo.
buffnixx >>
In this case:
1) I right clicked on the auction image.
2) Then I clicked on "properties".
3) I then copied the URL address that popped up.
4) I then went to the thread and clicked on "reply".
5) Next, I clicked on the image icon, which looks like a picture and is fourth from the right under "message text".
6) When the window popped up, I pasted the URL address into it.
7) Then I clicked "OK"
8) Typically, when I am posting an image, after I have gone through the above steps, I click on "preview" underneath the post box, to check to be sure it will appear in my post.
Edited to add: I see you are now a pro and without my help
The 17P Walker that you posted that was on ebay - Was that coin in a NTC graded slab?
Thx
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
<< <i>Now that I can embed photos can anyone explain how you edit your post? I tried to find a way to edit my posting of Breen's letter to take out all the extra lines but could not figure out how to do that. buffnixx >>
On the bottom right hand corner of the posting window is an "edit" option. When you click on it, it will bring up your original post, including any images, quotes, whatever. It can then then be edited.