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Question about the best NFL quarterback rankings, keyed into career stats vs. rings.
SanctionII
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Mr. Ed, John elway of the Broncos is close to the top in many statistical categories. However he is 2-3 in Superbowl games.
He is considered a great quarterback by many, but not one of the best.
If instead of him being 2-3 in Superbowl games he was 4-1 or 5-0; and if his career stats remained the same, how would he be viewed?
Would 2 or 3 more Superbowl wins result in Mr. Ed being viewed as the best NFL QB ever (or in the top 3)?
Apply this same logic to other QB's. For example if Jim Kelley of the Bills had won 4 Superbowls instead of losing 4 how would he be viewed. What if Montana and Bradshaw had Super Bowl records of 0-4, 1-3 or 2-2 instead of 4-0? How would they be viewed?
How much impact or effect does a QB's Superbowl record (or whether he played in a Superbowl game at all) on the QB's overall position in the rankings of great QB's?
He is considered a great quarterback by many, but not one of the best.
If instead of him being 2-3 in Superbowl games he was 4-1 or 5-0; and if his career stats remained the same, how would he be viewed?
Would 2 or 3 more Superbowl wins result in Mr. Ed being viewed as the best NFL QB ever (or in the top 3)?
Apply this same logic to other QB's. For example if Jim Kelley of the Bills had won 4 Superbowls instead of losing 4 how would he be viewed. What if Montana and Bradshaw had Super Bowl records of 0-4, 1-3 or 2-2 instead of 4-0? How would they be viewed?
How much impact or effect does a QB's Superbowl record (or whether he played in a Superbowl game at all) on the QB's overall position in the rankings of great QB's?
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Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Brady and Peyton Manning are current day QB's that fit into the mix. Brady is 3-1 on the Super Bowl and the luster on his name at 3-1 is not the same as it was when he was 3-0, or what it would have been if he was 4-0. Peyton Manning is 1-0 (I think he has played in just one Superbowl). If he was o-1 -r had never made it to the Superbowl he would not be viewed in the same light he is today.
So, my question was specifically about Mr. Ed of Broncos fame.
If he was 5-0 instead of 2-3 in the Superbowl, where would he be on the list of the best NFL QB's?
Would he be #1 (Bradshaw and Montana are 4-0, so at 5-0 Mr. Ed. would arguably be better than them) or at least in the top 3?.
I'd put him on that list even if he hadn't won a single ring, but if he had won 5, that most certainly would have nudged him at least a notch or two higher, I'm sure,,,
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I always like to break down NFL greats into different categories such as by Decade, position ect..
Now talking QB position John Elway was one of the best along with Marino, Elway, Moon & Montana.
Marino blows Cool Joe away with stats but nobody says he was better than him, however if Montana didnt win those rings then Marino would be considered better.
If Jim Kelly won those 4 Super Bowls he would be considered one of the best ever.
In my opinion Super Bowl wins do define whether a QB was one of the best or not, I disagree with it.
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Aikman was a very good, even outstanding QB, but he certainly wasn't one of the all-time greats...without E. Smith and Irvin and arguably one of the best offensive lines in history, he'd have zero rings, which is my point: it is unfair to use Super Bowl rings to truly define a QB's greatness...if Terrell Davis hadn't come to town, Elway would have finished his career 0-3 in the Super Bowl, but he was still the same QB with or without the rings. He was just fortunate to have stuck around till TD elevated the Broncos to the championship level.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>so only modern QB's are in the discussion? or do championships that arent SB's count?? >>
I thought that Modern era QB's were the point of the OP, like I mentioned in my post I like to break down the "Best" by Decade because in my opinion you cant compare an Otto Graham to a John Elway.
Another great QB left out here is Steve Young who is argueably one of the best of the best. I know he was in a great system and had Jerry Rice. But he was one of the best at reading defences and if you didn't stay home he would kill you with his legs. And he could put the ball where he wanted it. I hated the 49er's but you have to give him his due.
(...and by the way, I have a complete Rosie set minus the last two years and I am only missing one Mercury....and I am sure you can guess which one.)
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Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
At the end of the day you play to win a Super Bowl. However, I think it's a lazy man's argument to point to ring count without taking a close look at the numbers. It takes a team effort to win a SB.
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Manning
Montana
Marino
Elway
Tarkenton
Graham
Brady
Young
Moon
Favre
Unitas
but honestly, if your LIFE depended on 1 game, and you HAD to pick a QB to play it from his prime, it would be Manning. How could it not be?
John
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
<< <i>who are the top 10 all time best QBs (I realize I listed 11)?
Manning
Montana
Marino
Elway
Tarkenton
Graham
Brady
Young
Moon
Favre
Unitas
but honestly, if your LIFE depended on 1 game, and you HAD to pick a QB to play it from his prime, it would be Manning. How could it not be?
John >>
My top 5 imo
Elway
Montana
Unitas
Favre
Bradshaw
edit- I didnt include Manning or Brady because they have several years left in their careers.
Manning has had too many 1 and outs in his playoff career for me to put him in that spot. For me, it's a toss up between Montana and Brady, but I'd lean toward Brady. Brady is a miraculous catch away from leading his team down the field to win in the final minutes 3 times in 4 Super Bowls. He's as clutch as they come.
As for the G.O.A.T discussion, it's an almost fruitless endeavor because you have to weigh so many factors and everyone weighs them differently (listed in no particular order):
1. Surrounding cast
2. Physical tools (arm strength, accuracy, avoiding pass rush, etc.)
3. Era (teams threw less in the 60s/70s yet threw more INTs, teams throw way more now and way more accurate)
4. Stats (skewed by #3)
5. Super Bowl wins
6. Playing environment (dome, cold weather city, warm weather city)
7. Leadership
8. "Clutchness" in important games.
I tend to put a lot of weight on #s 1, 2, 5, and 8. Since I never saw Johnny Unitas and Otto Graham play, I don't know where to rank them. They probably deserve to be in the top 5, but if we are looking at the last 30 years, (which is all I'm really familiar with), then my list looks like this:
1. Brady
2. Elway
3. Manning
4. Montana
5. Young
6. Marino
I put Brady at the top because if you combine all those things, he has almost all of them on his side. Same with Elway. Brady and Elway both played with pretty mediocre offensive talent around them for the majority of their careers, playing in cold-weather cities. The one year Brady finally had some legitimate weapons, he threw for 50 TDs. Once Elway finally got a RB to help him out, he won 2 SBs.
Manning is probably the best leader of anyone on that list, and will end up with the best stats of them all. But he has also had 2 HOF WRs on his team and a potential HOF TE, throwing in a dome 9 times a year, and with 2 other games in warm weather cities every year (JAX and TEN), making his life a little easier. His postseason record is just mediocre, and on the way to his only Super Bowl win (so far), he had more INTs than TDs in the postseason with a 68 rating. They won that Super Bowl in spite of him. He's writing a much better story this year though.
Montana had the greatest WR ever, and maybe the best offensive system ever to work with, to the point where it almost wasn't fair. Ditto for Steve Young, who may have had the best physical skills of anyone to play the position, when you factor in his running ability.
Marino was probably the best pure passer of the group, and had the most dominant season of any QB ever in 1984 (even better than Brady's 50 TDs, or Manning's 49 TDs seasons), given that the league was still predominantly a run-first league. But he was an awful leader, and didn't have much going for him other than the stats.
All-in-all. its an interesting discussion, but seeing where the league is heading in terms of offense and rule changes, it wouldn't surprise me if a QB comes along sometime in the next 20 years, and goes 5-0 in Super Bowls, breaks all the passing records, leads his team to 19-0, and leaves no doubt that he is the G.O.A.T.
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BUT I would put Aikman and Roger S. in the mix and leave out Moon and Tarkenton. Tarkenton got 90% of his yards by throwing a 5 yard pass to White then he would run 20-50 more. Fran didn't have the arm of any of these QB's mentioned.
Oh, and another pretty good QB was a guy out in S.D. who threw for tons about the same time period as Marino. Remember Fouts. One of the best AFC Championships back then was between Miami and S.D.
They probably are better trained, better fed athletes as well, but some might have more narrow or limited FB talents.
The Pro FB game has changed, passing is now much more vital, than before, QBs are no longer required to be smart enough to call the plays anymore,
the rules have changed and allow "specialized" players, with a smaller very specific skill set, a chance to become greats of the game,
despite shortcomings as all around FB players.
Sammy Baugh a pretty fair QB before TV glamorized the game so much,
in one season, led the NFL in passing yards, also punting average ( He still holds that all time record I believe ), and interceptions by a defensive player.
Bronco Nagurski was an all pro running back, and for a few seasons, an all pro defensive lineman.
Otto Graham, who could throw as well as any of today's QBs,
has won 7 pro FB world titles or rings, more than anyone, and has been in the title game EVERY single pro season he ever played, ten in all.
He also also played a season in the NBA.