Wartime nickel alloy included aluminum - original quote added.
RWB
Posts: 8,082 ✭
Aluminum was used in making the wartime silver nickels. It was added to help make the alloy more homogeneous, but most evaporated before the alloy was cast into ingots for rolling.
Here's the actual quote. Sorry if my paraphrase confused things.
" …there is a difference of opinion [in] the accounting treatment to be accorded aluminum used in manufacturing the 5-cent coin. A small amount of aluminum is added to the melts to facilitate the operation. Most of the aluminum is oxidized or otherwise eliminated from the alloy so that but a trace appears in the finished coin…."
Here's the actual quote. Sorry if my paraphrase confused things.
" …there is a difference of opinion [in] the accounting treatment to be accorded aluminum used in manufacturing the 5-cent coin. A small amount of aluminum is added to the melts to facilitate the operation. Most of the aluminum is oxidized or otherwise eliminated from the alloy so that but a trace appears in the finished coin…."
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Comments
cool info, you would think I wouldve known that
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>I love war nickels, never knew that and I am not sure if evaporated is the right term but the alloy they chose is a fascinating part of their story. I would love to know why they made it the %'s they did, instead of straight zinc & silver? It's is not like it worked very well as it was, I can't count the number of laminations I have seen. My gem set is my only set of modern coins, add the silver proof and the 3 major errors it's a cool set >>
When I was at Coin World back in the mid-1970's I corresponded with Dr. Goldman at the Mint's lab about various things. I once asked him about why warnix had so many laminations, and he said (from personal experience, because he was with the Mint during the war) that the laminations were caused by manganese oxide. The Mint got in bars of manganese from the smelters, and because they were a non-precious metal stored them outdoors. There, they oxidized. Proper procedure called for the ingots to be scaled, or scraped free of oxidation, before being used, but because they were always so busy during the war they usually did not bother to. The oxide got into the alloy and did not bind well.
He said that they hated to use the manganese, but had to in order to give the 35% silver coins the right electrical resistance characteristics to pass in existing vending machines without having to adjust them.
TD
Great info TD!
If not, were proof silver planchets, other than being polished, treated or made any differently than their circulation-strike counterparts?
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<< <i>I love war nickels, never knew that and I am not sure if evaporated is the right term but the alloy they chose is a fascinating part of their story. I would love to know why they made it the %'s they did, instead of straight zinc & silver? It's is not like it worked very well as it was, I can't count the number of laminations I have seen. My gem set is my only set of modern coins, add the silver proof and the 3 major errors it's a cool set >>
When I was at Coin World back in the mid-1970's I corresponded with Dr. Goldman at the Mint's lab about various things. I once asked him about why warnix had so many laminations, and he said (from personal experience, because he was with the Mint during the war) that the laminations were caused by manganese oxide. The Mint got in bars of manganese from the smelters, and because they were a non-precious metal stored them outdoors. There, they oxidized. Proper procedure called for the ingots to be scaled, or scraped free of oxidation, before being used, but because they were always so busy during the war they usually did not bother to. The oxide got into the alloy and did not bind well.
He said that they hated to use the manganese, but had to in order to give the 35% silver coins the right electrical resistance characteristics to pass in existing vending machines without having to adjust them.
TD >>
Thank you this is great info and answers quite a few questions I had, I can see why Julian always speaks so highly of your knowledge.
<< <i>Aluminum was used in making the wartime silver nickels. It was added to help make the alloy
more homogeneous, but most evaporated before the alloy was cast into ingots for rolling. >>
Interesting. One wonders what would be found if a complete chemical analysis was done on a
few war nickels. If the aluminum shows up in detectable amounts, perhaps it should be included
in the alloy breakdown.
Denga
<< <i>Aluminum was used in making the wartime silver nickels. It was added to help make the alloy more homogeneous, but most evaporated before the alloy was cast into ingots for rolling. >>
Never heard that one. Just how does Aluminum help make any metalic mixture more homogeneous? I couldn't even begin to imagine how Aluminum could evaporate and just where and how would it precipitate out? I sure wouldn't want to be in an area where it rains Aluminum.
A modern analysis might be interesting - if there were actually 1% Al, should the books be revised? (We can now easily detect trace elements that were nearly impossible to identify in the 1940s.)
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<< <i>
When I was at Coin World back in the mid-1970's I corresponded with Dr. Goldman at the Mint's lab about various things. I once asked him about why warnix had so many laminations, and he said (from personal experience, because he was with the Mint during the war) that the laminations were caused by manganese oxide. The Mint got in bars of manganese from the smelters, and because they were a non-precious metal stored them outdoors. There, they oxidized. Proper procedure called for the ingots to be scaled, or scraped free of oxidation, before being used, but because they were always so busy during the war they usually did not bother to. The oxide got into the alloy and did not bind well.
He said that they hated to use the manganese, but had to in order to give the 35% silver coins the right electrical resistance characteristics to pass in existing vending machines without having to adjust them.
TD >>
All very odd. Anyone dealing with metals should know Manganese is excessively effective by Oxydations since it's Oxydation states are from +2 through +7. Just why would anyone store such a highly Oxydatioal substance outdoors?
And as to the right electrical resistance characteristics, Manganese is far from Silver in that situation.
And if at any time Aluminum was introduced into the mixture it would have been to make the end results more corrosion resistant due to the forming of grain absorbing substances that hinder galvanic corrosions in metalic mixtures.
Of course without knowing for real what was going on with the Mints mixtures of metals, anything is possible.
as the good Captain said, the alloy mix was partly due to needs of the vending machine industry.
<< <i>Why isn't the Wartime proof more popular? >>
That is an awsome question - especially since it is the only silver nickel.
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<< <i>
<< <i>
When I was at Coin World back in the mid-1970's I corresponded with Dr. Goldman at the Mint's lab about various things. I once asked him about why warnix had so many laminations, and he said (from personal experience, because he was with the Mint during the war) that the laminations were caused by manganese oxide. The Mint got in bars of manganese from the smelters, and because they were a non-precious metal stored them outdoors. There, they oxidized. Proper procedure called for the ingots to be scaled, or scraped free of oxidation, before being used, but because they were always so busy during the war they usually did not bother to. The oxide got into the alloy and did not bind well.
He said that they hated to use the manganese, but had to in order to give the 35% silver coins the right electrical resistance characteristics to pass in existing vending machines without having to adjust them.
TD >>
All very odd. Anyone dealing with metals should know Manganese is excessively effective by Oxydations since it's Oxydation states are from +2 through +7. Just why would anyone store such a highly Oxydatioal substance outdoors?
And as to the right electrical resistance characteristics, Manganese is far from Silver in that situation.
And if at any time Aluminum was introduced into the mixture it would have been to make the end results more corrosion resistant due to the forming of grain absorbing substances that hinder galvanic corrosions in metalic mixtures.
Of course without knowing for real what was going on with the Mints mixtures of metals, anything is possible. >>
I think it was intended to offset or counter the electrical resistance characteristics of the silver, not complement it.
TD
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<< <i>Why isn't the Wartime proof more popular? >>
That is an awsome question - especially since it is the only silver nickel. >>
They are over 100$ for a PCGS non-cam gem, that is a lot of money for a common Jeff nickel. They trade for 2x the non-silver 42 proof and they are by no means 2x rarer.
I picked up a 1944 war nickel that appears to have a non homogenous mix including what looks like poorly mixed silver.
Does this look like an error coin or would this just be called corrosion?
@wilsotc Not sure what is going on there. Could we see a picture of the back, please?
@wilsotc.... Welcome aboard.... Your second picture link does not work, please post again. Cheers, RickO
thank you. I suspect that it is just odd toning from being stored loose with other coins, possibly in a damp environment. If it had come in to the coin shop I used to work at, I would just toss it in the bin with the other stray warnix.