Enough with the "Steroids don't make you a better player" garbage
sportscardtheory
Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭
I get so sick of hearing people say this.
Barry Bonds
1986-1999 (age 21-34)
37 HRs 106 RBIs per 162 games .409 OBP
2000-2004 (age 35-39)
59 HRs 123 RBIs per 162 games .535 OBP
Who is dumb enough to try and explain this away.
Barry Bonds
1986-1999 (age 21-34)
37 HRs 106 RBIs per 162 games .409 OBP
2000-2004 (age 35-39)
59 HRs 123 RBIs per 162 games .535 OBP
Who is dumb enough to try and explain this away.
0
Comments
<< <i>
Who is dumb enough to try and explain this away. >>
You're the theorist, why not you? LOL!
My Podcast - Now FEATURED on iTunes
Steve
Just playing devil's advocate, but stats alone cannot be considered proof positive of steroid use. An admission or a failed drug test are solid proof. Not every player has a perfectly consistent career, statistically. That said, I do think Bonds used an assortment of designer PEDs.
There are average or poor players that can take all the steroids/PEDs they want, and it will not necessarily make them better. Also, a guy like McGwire hit 49 bombs as a relatively skinny rookie (though he was still a large man). It's entirely possible he could have had a monster HR season without steroids. We'll never know of course. So it's tough to say with certainty that steroids "make one better" or don't.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Always looking for Chipper Jones cards.
Im a very focused collector of cards from 1909 - 2012...LOL
<< <i>The problem is that, by that logic, any time a player has a period of peak performance as compared to prior performance, he is then considered to be on steroids. What if one quoted Koufax's early years and compared them to his later years? Or Nolan Ryan's? Or Greg Maddux's? I think Ryne Sandberg and Paul Molitor also had some spikes in performance later in their careers that might be regarded as anomalous as compared to earlier seasons.
Just playing devil's advocate, but stats alone cannot be considered proof positive of steroid use. An admission or a failed drug test are solid proof. Not every player has a perfectly consistent career, statistically. That said, I do think Bonds used an assortment of designer PEDs.
There are average or poor players that can take all the steroids/PEDs they want, and it will not necessarily make them better. Also, a guy like McGwire hit 49 bombs as a relatively skinny rookie (though he was still a large man). It's entirely possible he could have had a monster HR season without steroids. We'll never know of course. So it's tough to say with certainty that steroids "make one better" or don't. >>
Barry Bonds was on steroids and almost certainly he started taking them in 1999-2000 and stopped before the 2005 season started. This makes your argument completely invalid. If you are going to argue that he wasn't taking them, then clearly you have a different agenda. Players don't miraculously hit 22 MORE HRs a season after age 34.
in or not let them in . Im sure there are alot of players who chose to do them that havent gotten caught.
I do believe its unfair to call this "the steroid era" because there are lots of players that never touched the stuff
that could be under suspicion because they played in the era
Always looking for Chipper Jones cards.
Im a very focused collector of cards from 1909 - 2012...LOL
<< <i>Honestly , Who really cares anymore ? The players chose to do steroids . The HOF voters will either let them
in or not let them in . Im sure there are alot of players who chose to do them that havent gotten caught.
I do believe its unfair to call this "the steroid era" because there are lots of players that never touched the stuff
that could be under suspicion because they played in the era >>
People will always care because some people dislike cheaters. The ones who did and were caught will ALWAYS face animosity. Sorry, but there's no changing that.
<< <i>What is my agenda? I am not making a case for or against Bonds. I am talking about your use of anomalous stats to prove steroid use. I personally do think Bonds did PEDs. What I am saying is that you cannot quote stats to prove steroid use, because by that same specious logic guys like Koufax who had later periods of excellence that far surpassed their earlier performance would be guilty of steroid use. The evidence you are citing to prove Bonds guilty must be applicable to any other athlete, and then it becomes a slippery slope. >>
Did Sandy Koufax fail a drug test? I'm talking about players that are linked to PEDs. Bary Bonds DID steroids, no one questions that. His stats REITERATE that he did them, no one said they were proof. I'm not making unsubstantiated accusations here, I'm using a proven user to show that it does indeed make you better. It's a stupid argument, because no player would take steroids if it didn't make them better in some way. I'm certainly not going to waste my time arguing with someone that Bonds didn't take PEDs when he did.
Some may find it interesting to note, when discussing players who may have done PEDs, that there have been "clean" late career surges in performance. If surges similar to the two below were to happen now, do we think many people would point to PED use?
(A) Paul Molitor batted .320+ only once in his first NINE YEARS in the league; that's a fairly large sample space to look at, one in which we'd think we've seen a player's peak. Yet he batted .320+ SIX TIMES in his next ten years in the league.
(B) Sandy Koufax NEVER had 300+ strikeouts in a season throughout his first EIGHT YEARS as a major league pitcher. In those years he only broke 200 K's twice. And yet in his final four years he had 300+ K's three times. That's almost as anomalous and eye-opening a surge in K's for a pitcher as Bonds' surge HR's per year as a hitter.
Edit: it's a shame that because of the steroid era, performances like these might be looked upon with scorn by the fans and media were they to take place now.
that he ever failed a drug test . I think to some extent that people dislike Bonds because he was very unfriendly on top of being accused
of taking steroids
Always looking for Chipper Jones cards.
Im a very focused collector of cards from 1909 - 2012...LOL
<< <i>If you're only talking about players that have been linked to PEDs, then I get your point; that wasn't part of the initial post tho.
Some may find it interesting to note, when discussing players who may have done PEDs, that there have been "clean" late career surges in performance. If surges similar to the two below were to happen now, do we think many people would point to PED use?
(A) Paul Molitor batted .320+ only once in his first NINE YEARS in the league; that's a fairly large sample space to look at, one in which we'd think we've seen a player's peak. Yet he batted .320+ SIX TIMES in his next ten years in the league.
(B) Sandy Koufax NEVER had 300+ strikeouts in a season throughout his first EIGHT YEARS as a major league pitcher. In those years he only broke 200 K's twice. And yet in his final four years he had 300+ K's three times. That's almost as anomalous and eye-opening a surge in K's for a pitcher as Bonds' surge HR's per year as a hitter.
Edit: it's a shame that because of the steroid era, performances like these might be looked upon with scorn by the fans and media were they to take place now. >>
This thread is about the affects of steroids. Some people say they don't make you better, I'm saying they most certainly do and anyone who really thinks they don't is an idiot. Steroids turned Bonds into the single most feared hitter in MLB history FROM one of the best overall 5-tool talents in MLB history.
<< <i>Those who got caught will always face animosity.......there you go . Bonds has NOT been caught . Accused yes . It has never come out
that he ever failed a drug test . I think to some extent that people dislike Bonds because he was very unfriendly on top of being accused
of taking steroids >>
First of all, he DID fail a test. Second of all, you would have to be a real dunce to believe he didn't juice even if he didn't fail a test.
<< <i>
<< <i>Honestly , Who really cares anymore ? The players chose to do steroids . The HOF voters will either let them
in or not let them in . Im sure there are alot of players who chose to do them that havent gotten caught.
I do believe its unfair to call this "the steroid era" because there are lots of players that never touched the stuff
that could be under suspicion because they played in the era >>
People will always care because some people dislike cheaters. The ones who did and were caught will ALWAYS face animosity. Sorry, but there's no changing that. >>
Then can you explain why Gaylord Perry was inducted into the HOF and is looked at and idolized as a great pitcher? He was caught cheating MANY times and was not afraid to admit it, yet he isn't getting the fires and pitchforks from the public.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Honestly , Who really cares anymore ? The players chose to do steroids . The HOF voters will either let them
in or not let them in . Im sure there are alot of players who chose to do them that havent gotten caught.
I do believe its unfair to call this "the steroid era" because there are lots of players that never touched the stuff
that could be under suspicion because they played in the era >>
People will always care because some people dislike cheaters. The ones who did and were caught will ALWAYS face animosity. Sorry, but there's no changing that. >>
Then can you explain why Gaylord Perry was inducted into the HOF and is looked at and idolized as a great pitcher? He was caught cheating MANY times and was not afraid to admit it, yet he isn't getting the fires and pitchforks from the public. >>
Probably because he was not physically altering his body. People look down on that much more than some spit on a baseball or some sandpaper. First offense for PEDs is 50 games, what is it if a guy who gets caught using a spit-ball... probably a slap on the wrist. Yes they are both a form of cheating, but comparing a spit-ball with injecting your body with a substance that will alter your appearance and can kill you is like apples to oranges. It's like comparing plastic surgery to wearing make-up.
Are you suggesting that Barry Bonds may have used performance-enhancing drugs?
Are you further suggesting that players who took these banned substances may have seen an improvement in their performance?
<< <i>Whoa, back up there, sportstheory.
Are you suggesting that Barry Bonds may have used performance-enhancing drugs?
Are you further suggesting that players who took these banned substances may have seen an improvement in their performance? >>
I sure am. I see people all the time say it doesn't affect their performance. Someone said it in a different thread just today.
<< <i>Whoa, back up there, sportstheory.
Are you suggesting that Barry Bonds may have used performance-enhancing drugs?
Are you further suggesting that players who took these banned substances may have seen an improvement in their performance? >>
I know... preposterous.
<< <i>
<< <i>Whoa, back up there, sportstheory.
Are you suggesting that Barry Bonds may have used performance-enhancing drugs?
Are you further suggesting that players who took these banned substances may have seen an improvement in their performance? >>
I know... preposterous. >>
.....
I find humor in the fact that some people think it's OK that some HOFers have done steroids.
Sorry about the sarcastic reply.
<< <i>People will always care because some people dislike cheaters. The ones who did and were caught will ALWAYS face animosity. Sorry, but there's no changing that. >>
not true
no animosity for Yusaku Iriki, Jason Grimsley, Guillermo Mota, Juan Salas, Neifi Pérez, J. C. Romero and Manny Ramirez
each suspended at least 50 games by mlb for peds
see here
Bud Selig
Steve
Bosox1976
<< <i>Geez SCT are you telling us something we don't know?
Steve >>
Clearly you aren't grasping the point. There are people in this very thread who believe steroids don't make you a better player. I don't see why you are acting as if I'm making it up. Talk to them.
And Bob Dole used viagra to help with his blood pressure
edit: credit Colin Cowherd on that one
"Molon Labe"
<< <i>
<< <i>Those who got caught will always face animosity.......there you go . Bonds has NOT been caught . Accused yes . It has never come out
that he ever failed a drug test . I think to some extent that people dislike Bonds because he was very unfriendly on top of being accused
of taking steroids >>
First of all, he DID fail a test. Second of all, you would have to be a real dunce to believe he didn't juice even if he didn't fail a test. >>
So did he fail a test?Or am I a dunce if he didn't?This statement makes about as much sense as ....
you know.
J.R.
Needs'
1972 Football-9's high#'s
1965 Football-8's
1958 Topps FB-7-8
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Those who got caught will always face animosity.......there you go . Bonds has NOT been caught . Accused yes . It has never come out
that he ever failed a drug test . I think to some extent that people dislike Bonds because he was very unfriendly on top of being accused
of taking steroids >>
First of all, he DID fail a test. Second of all, you would have to be a real dunce to believe he didn't juice even if he didn't fail a test. >>
So did he fail a test?Or am I a dunce if he didn't?This statement makes about as much sense as ....
you know.
J.R. >>
It makes complete sense. He failed a test in 2001, and even if he didn't, you would have to be pretty stupid to believe he didn't do steroids. There, worded differently with the very same meaning.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Those who got caught will always face animosity.......there you go . Bonds has NOT been caught . Accused yes . It has never come out
that he ever failed a drug test . I think to some extent that people dislike Bonds because he was very unfriendly on top of being accused
of taking steroids >>
First of all, he DID fail a test. Second of all, you would have to be a real dunce to believe he didn't juice even if he didn't fail a test. >>
So did he fail a test?Or am I a dunce if he didn't?This statement makes about as much sense as ....
you know.
J.R. >>
It makes complete sense. He failed a test in 2001, and even if he didn't, you would have to be pretty stupid to believe he didn't do steroids. There, worded differently with the very same meaning. >>
He failed in 2001,even if he didn't ,all in the same sentence.Still makes as much sense as well you know.
J.R.
Needs'
1972 Football-9's high#'s
1965 Football-8's
1958 Topps FB-7-8
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Those who got caught will always face animosity.......there you go . Bonds has NOT been caught . Accused yes . It has never come out
that he ever failed a drug test . I think to some extent that people dislike Bonds because he was very unfriendly on top of being accused
of taking steroids >>
First of all, he DID fail a test. Second of all, you would have to be a real dunce to believe he didn't juice even if he didn't fail a test. >>
So did he fail a test?Or am I a dunce if he didn't?This statement makes about as much sense as ....
you know.
J.R. >>
It makes complete sense. He failed a test in 2001, and even if he didn't, you would have to be pretty stupid to believe he didn't do steroids. There, worded differently with the very same meaning. >>
He failed in 2001,even if he didn't ,all in the same sentence.Still makes as much sense as well you know.
J.R. >>
I'm not going to play semantics or grammar games with you. You either understand it or you don't. Apparently you do but just want to play smart guy. Enjoy the day.
I just want to know did he fail in a test in 2001?I really
don't know,but if he didn't,well you know.
J.R.
Needs'
1972 Football-9's high#'s
1965 Football-8's
1958 Topps FB-7-8
<< <i>I just want to know did he fail in a test in 2001?I really
don't know,but if he didn't,well you know.
J.R. >>
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
But here's the issue which is almost never raised--and, believe me, I'm a huge lover of the sanctity of the old game and it breaks my heart to see the record books warped by pharmaceutical trickery--lack of opportunity doesn't make you noble. All of these Hall of Famers who insist that the steroid gang has no place in the Hall of Fame had better be clean as can be (no "greenies," no spitballs, no corked bats) or they're hypocrites. And, even moreso, they'd better be pretty darned sure that, if players with lesser talent than they had were surpassing them during their careers through the use of PED's, they would have stuck to their principles rather than grabbing a needle to level the playing field. Imagine what Mickey Mantle could have done with the healing properties of today's drugs. Would he have said "no thanks."? It's impossible to know for sure, but I don't think any of us could say it's completely outside the realm of possibility that he would have partaken.
So if we're to exclude every steroid user from the Hall of Fame, it's only fair to strip induction from any player who wouldn't swear on a stack of Bibles that he wouldn't have done the same thing if given the opportunity. And there are already some living Hall of Famers who have admitted they probably would have...
Jonathan Scheier
Cataloger - Consignment Director
Heritage Auctions (www.HA.com)
JonathanS@HA.com
1-800-872-6467 X1314
Consign to auction at Consign to Heritage Auctions
Connect with Heritage at Connect with Heritage Auctions
<< <i>Obviously McGwire's contention that the steroids had no responsibility for his home run production is preposterous. For seventy years (1928 to 1997) only one guy hits 60+ home runs, then in a four-year span (1998-2001) the barrier is broken six times (Sosa 3x, McGwire 2x, Bonds 1x). We're expected to chalk that up to coincidence?
But here's the issue which is almost never raised--and, believe me, I'm a huge lover of the sanctity of the old game and it breaks my heart to see the record books warped by pharmaceutical trickery--lack of opportunity doesn't make you noble. All of these Hall of Famers who insist that the steroid gang has no place in the Hall of Fame had better be clean as can be (no "greenies," no spitballs, no corked bats) or they're hypocrites. >>
word